To the original post....
Blood Mages are humans. Just because you use Blood Magic, doesn't mean you want super death everywhere. Wardens and MageHawkes prove otherwise at least.
Merrill was set on a destructive course, and consider this course like a drug. You could support her, hoping she'd see the light eventually, or you could tell her what she's doing is wrong. Telling a drug addict what they enjoy is horrible usually upsets them. Sometimes being the best friend doesn't mean you're gonna get along with them.
Merrill believed she could handle the task, and be independent, to try and help her clan regain the lost knowledge, striving to give everything for the Dalish. Marethari however prevented Merrill of taking any chances of interacting with the demon. Hell, Merrill was responsible, she knew what was at risk; she brought Hawke along to kill her if she failed. Instead Marethari took the variable chance, and made it into a reality.
Also Marethari is an old mage who's powers saved Dalish Wardens from Darkspawn Poisoning, and Merrill is a young apprentice. Marethari as the more powerful mage, took in a demon. Almost irresponsible if you ask me.
And about the evil tomes? Merrill just doesn't like seeing knowledge destroyed, just because it's deemed "evil". It's her entire character right there.
So, is Merrill evil? Crazy?
Débuté par
loranna238
, avril 25 2011 07:36
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#102
Posté 26 avril 2011 - 10:37
ejoslin
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Joy Divison wrote...
In your OP, you seemed to treat how your prediction of what would have happened to Merrill as canon when there is nothing in the game to indicate this is what would have unfolded. We don't know if she is being manipulated or is too weak to avoid demonic possession. It is a valid perspective to believe this would have been the case as Marethari thinks, but as this is just a guess and has not happened to Merrill, condemning her for it while ignoring conspicous gameplay evidence she is actually at times astute in her dealings with the fade and thus stands a better chance in a battle of wills w/ a demon than say Anders is a valid objection. I'm just looking out for my favorite blood mage much like you might when you think someone is selling Zevran short
I do not know why Marethari's adopted the "solution" that she did, but I do know it was not befitting of someone with her wisdom and responsiblity to the ENTIRE clan (not just Merrill). If I had to guess, it was mostly a maternal instict - and I stress instict as her actions were done with no thought given to the consequences - as she and Merrill had a virtual mother-daughter relationship. Marethari's options to prevent Merrill, who would not be disuaded from contacting the demon, were limited and unpleasant so there probably was no ideal solution. Short of hiring some thugs to smash the mirror and removing the motivation for Merrill to contact the demon, it seems moving the clan off Sundermount, informing them she must undertake a potentially lethal task, and assisting Hawke to ensure damage control is about all she can do. As Anders says, it was an incredibly noble thing to do, but it doesn't correct the faults in Marerthari's judgment. Merrill took precautions to ensure the only one who would be killed going up that mountain would be her if things went wrong. Marethari should have done the same.
People sell Zevran short all the time -- it doesn't bother me at all. I think male pixels get much harsher treatment than female ones (well, at least the harsh treatment is different) -- trust me when I say I get bored when people describe how much they hate him and how quickly they slit his throat. Fenris gets that as well. I do understand wanting to stand up for the characters that engage you, though.
The one question Merrill never addresses is what the demon wants in return. You know what she wants (her people's past glory), and you know she will do about anything to get it once the demon shows it to her. But demons are not known for being aulturistic.
If the demon wasn't going to get anything out of that mirror being restored, why did it call out to Marethari and Merrill? Why did it tempt them? It has to have some sort of stake in it, and what Marethari believes is the most plausible explanation I've heard -- far more plausible than the demon just wanting to help the elves.
Is what I believe canon? Her story seemed pretty clear to me, but obviously other people see it differently so of course what I say is only my interpretation. Merrill and the keeper are fascinated by the mirror and take a shard. Once they get to the Free Marches, they settle in a place where the veil is thin and there's a captured spirit (just an unhappy coincidence). The demon calls to them, they both respond to see what it is. They both recognize it as a demon, but where Marethari resists it, Merrill deals with it. And in the process ends up losing all that is dear to her due to the obsession.
In fact, I take a sympathetic view of Merrill. I don't think she was evil and I think she had the best of intentions. I think she was weak. She may be strong enough to not be possessed, but she was not strong enough to resist the deal though part of her knew better than to trust it. I think her story is tragic -- she wants something so wonderful and selfless, and loses everything she held dear in the process. I think she thought she was using the demon, not the other way around.
Modifié par ejoslin, 26 avril 2011 - 10:49 .
#103
Posté 26 avril 2011 - 10:53
elenilote
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ejoslin wrote...
People sell Zevran short all the time -- it doesn't bother me at all. I think male pixels get much harsher treatment than female ones (well, at least the harsh treatment is different) -- trust me when I say I get bored when people describe how much they hate him and how quickly they slit his throat. Fenris gets that as well. I do understand wanting to stand up for the characters that engage you, though.
The one question Merrill never addresses is what the demon wants in return. You know what she wants (her people's past glory), and you know she will do about anything to get it once the demon shows it to her. But demons are not known for being aulturistic.
.....
In fact, I take a sympathetic view of Merrill. I don't think she was evil and I think she had the best of intentions. I think she was weak. She may be strong enough to not be possessed, but she was not strong enough to resist the deal though part of her knew better than to trust it. I think her story is tragic -- she wants something so wonderful and selfless, and loses everything she held dear in the process. I think she thought she was using the demon, not the other way around.
E - I'm with you on this. I don't get the Zev/Fen-hate at all, I would if they were completely superfluous characters that are crappy fighters or have no backstory. If you hate them just because they are LI's - then yeah, whatever rocks your boat.
I also sympathise with Merrill, she is clearly not evil in her intentions, just misguided and vulnerable. One of the reasons I just cannot romance her with any character is that she just seems too...clueless. It feels like taking advantage of her
#104
Posté 26 avril 2011 - 10:57
Crow_22
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I agree with the fact that Merrill is basically in a child like mind set.... It sucks that everyone takes advantage of her and like Isabella said (And I was amazed at the sheer wisdom of this statement coming from her lol) that Merrill needs to stand up for herself and take charge. (Paraphrasing.)
So, do I think Merrill is evil for what she did? No, I think she's naive, and childlike. She REGRETS what she has done almost, and in that sense she is not evil. Crazy? Meh, not yet. But idk how she'd not be traumatized by the fact of her clan being slaughtered.
Oh and just incase anyone asks. I believe that Blood Magic is just a form of magic that is like other magic, only more effective in offense. Just as the Spirit Healer is another form of magic only used for support and defense.
So, do I think Merrill is evil for what she did? No, I think she's naive, and childlike. She REGRETS what she has done almost, and in that sense she is not evil. Crazy? Meh, not yet. But idk how she'd not be traumatized by the fact of her clan being slaughtered.
Oh and just incase anyone asks. I believe that Blood Magic is just a form of magic that is like other magic, only more effective in offense. Just as the Spirit Healer is another form of magic only used for support and defense.
#105
Posté 26 avril 2011 - 12:58
loranna238
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Ok, so reading this has helped my point of view a bit.
I still maintain that Merrill was a narcissist at the end if you follow the path where you coddle her and romance her, agreeing with her path and encouraging her in its wrongness. And I'm sorry, no matter what anyone says it was *wrong,* and creepy from the getgo. The outcome is proof enough for that to me, as you end up slaughtering the remainder of the elven nation. It only reinforces its wrongess where she is in front of the mirror saying about how they killed themselves rather than reject her superior help, and excusing it that way, which of course the player encourages her in.
(shudder)
But maybe this can change in the game if you follow a different route. Perhaps Merrill didn't start out so bad and you can assist her in not going that way. Either way, it feels unnatural to me to follow the route where you indulge this sort of thing.
That said - perhaps it is this way:
The blame actually goes with the demon, something which everyone misses, except maybe the Keeper. Merrill was just a tool to get what it wanted, and it manipulated both her and the keeper along that path. The only person who can prevent this tragedy is the player as he or she is not actually connected directly to the situation at the initial onset. The player has the ability to decide whether or not he or she wants to do the approach that love, or friendship, is where you tell someone there is nothing wrong and coddle Merrill, or if he or she wants to take the tough love approach (friend or more). As someone pointed out, the Rivalry doesn't mean enemies, necessarily.
According to the Keeper, the main goal of the Pride demon was to get the mirror fixed so it can escape its prison and rampage through the world. It obviously couldn't do it itself, as it was trapped. So it would need help to do so. I'm not sure if it had some sort of ability to read what was going on, maybe in dreams, as these connect with the fade, but it takes advantage of the situation in the tribe. There's a young woman in the clan who is determined to be a true Keeper, to preserve her race's culture and help her tribe. Everything else is secondary. She is young, sweet, and naive, not wordly at all and rather childlike. Most of all, she is easily hurt by anything that appears to be doubting her, however, also highly dependent on what other people think about her, as well as very, very, stubborn. In other words, she already has a lot of pride and this makes her vulnerable. Her mother loves her and sees great potential in her, and is the Keeper of her tribe. A perfect tool to be used by a Pride demon.
The Pride demon provided the motivation for this whole thing. It told Merrill that it would help her fix the mirror, which would help her restore her tribe's history. Merrill initially had enough unwarrented confidence in herself to think she could handle the demon and not allow it to manipulate her, to keep it contained and control it. She never seemed to stop once and think that the demon maybe wouldn't have offered it's help if it didn't already have a plan in mind to get her to do what it wanted. Perhaps she believed herself able to outmaneuvre it, or didn't understand that it wasn't actually just containing it by magical means that was the problem but that it could manipulate people as well, because she is naive.
The demon's ultimate plan was to keep her focused on the mirror and keep coming back to it, to isolate her from the rest of her tribe, encourage her pride and vanity and manipulate her gradually into continously coming back to it. Why not just tell her what she needed to do all at the same time? Am not quite sure but this worked nicely for it until the Keeper stepped in. Maybe it needed time to build up its strength in the Fade by feeding off their fear? Regardless, the demon also seemed to need her to keep coming back to the tribe so it could undermine her support, thus making itself the only source to make amends. Because Merrill came back repeatedly and saw her tribe was rejecting her (the inital onset being the blood magic), when all she wanted to do was help, because for instance Pol blamed the situation on her, and thought she was a monster which to her made no sense, she turned more and more to the demon who to her was giving her a way to make amends and to save her tribe. The farther she got away from the tribe the more determined in her own path she became as a means to undo what was happening to her. The mirror no longer was just a way to restore Dalish history, but it was to be the savior of her tribe. She was to be the savior of the tribe by restoring it, and they would love her rather than fear and hate her. I am not saying by any means that Merrill started out this way but it evolved into this.
This is supported by the situation when confronting the pride demon in the final battle. The dead images that came back kept accusing this of all being Merrill's fault, taunting her and crushing her spirit, which is what happened the entire time you were going back and forth to the Dalish. I'll admit this didn't make sense to me at first. However, isolating her and doing this at the same time this made her more determined to make amends and restore her reputation by the only means she could see, which was restoring the mirror. Merrill's actions only encourage the tribe's uneasiness as they are horribly afraid of blood magic, bad things are happening, she has isolated herself and yet returns on frequent occassions to say I'm going to save you all, but otherwise has no relation to their daily lives and was the one who seemed to start this mess in the first place with her blood magic and is continuing it by trying to restore something that, while it may be part of their history, also killed someone when it was last used. I think she was gradually going crazy in her obsession with the mirror, which was what the demon wanted so she would finish it and not turn back, and could make her its first victim. In payment for being foolhardy and thinking that she could handle it, it would kill her.
The player is in a position from the very start of this to help determine its outcome. The choices are to encourage Merrill along this dangerous path by coddling her, protecting her from the truth which is something that everyone, including even the most stubborn player should be able to see, keep telling her that she's going to save her tribe and not making a mistake, or the alternative...which I haven't explored yet because this is a *long* game...but there does seem to be a path to be firm with her but not unloving, rediculing her probably would only work to the demon's advantage as well.
If you choose the first path you assist a demon and she turns into a narcissist and end up slaying her whole tribe to protect her. I am not sure yet what happens with the second, but I'm going to find out.
This is so cool...I don't think I've ever seen anything like this in the history of my playing a game.
I still maintain that Merrill was a narcissist at the end if you follow the path where you coddle her and romance her, agreeing with her path and encouraging her in its wrongness. And I'm sorry, no matter what anyone says it was *wrong,* and creepy from the getgo. The outcome is proof enough for that to me, as you end up slaughtering the remainder of the elven nation. It only reinforces its wrongess where she is in front of the mirror saying about how they killed themselves rather than reject her superior help, and excusing it that way, which of course the player encourages her in.
(shudder)
But maybe this can change in the game if you follow a different route. Perhaps Merrill didn't start out so bad and you can assist her in not going that way. Either way, it feels unnatural to me to follow the route where you indulge this sort of thing.
That said - perhaps it is this way:
The blame actually goes with the demon, something which everyone misses, except maybe the Keeper. Merrill was just a tool to get what it wanted, and it manipulated both her and the keeper along that path. The only person who can prevent this tragedy is the player as he or she is not actually connected directly to the situation at the initial onset. The player has the ability to decide whether or not he or she wants to do the approach that love, or friendship, is where you tell someone there is nothing wrong and coddle Merrill, or if he or she wants to take the tough love approach (friend or more). As someone pointed out, the Rivalry doesn't mean enemies, necessarily.
According to the Keeper, the main goal of the Pride demon was to get the mirror fixed so it can escape its prison and rampage through the world. It obviously couldn't do it itself, as it was trapped. So it would need help to do so. I'm not sure if it had some sort of ability to read what was going on, maybe in dreams, as these connect with the fade, but it takes advantage of the situation in the tribe. There's a young woman in the clan who is determined to be a true Keeper, to preserve her race's culture and help her tribe. Everything else is secondary. She is young, sweet, and naive, not wordly at all and rather childlike. Most of all, she is easily hurt by anything that appears to be doubting her, however, also highly dependent on what other people think about her, as well as very, very, stubborn. In other words, she already has a lot of pride and this makes her vulnerable. Her mother loves her and sees great potential in her, and is the Keeper of her tribe. A perfect tool to be used by a Pride demon.
The Pride demon provided the motivation for this whole thing. It told Merrill that it would help her fix the mirror, which would help her restore her tribe's history. Merrill initially had enough unwarrented confidence in herself to think she could handle the demon and not allow it to manipulate her, to keep it contained and control it. She never seemed to stop once and think that the demon maybe wouldn't have offered it's help if it didn't already have a plan in mind to get her to do what it wanted. Perhaps she believed herself able to outmaneuvre it, or didn't understand that it wasn't actually just containing it by magical means that was the problem but that it could manipulate people as well, because she is naive.
The demon's ultimate plan was to keep her focused on the mirror and keep coming back to it, to isolate her from the rest of her tribe, encourage her pride and vanity and manipulate her gradually into continously coming back to it. Why not just tell her what she needed to do all at the same time? Am not quite sure but this worked nicely for it until the Keeper stepped in. Maybe it needed time to build up its strength in the Fade by feeding off their fear? Regardless, the demon also seemed to need her to keep coming back to the tribe so it could undermine her support, thus making itself the only source to make amends. Because Merrill came back repeatedly and saw her tribe was rejecting her (the inital onset being the blood magic), when all she wanted to do was help, because for instance Pol blamed the situation on her, and thought she was a monster which to her made no sense, she turned more and more to the demon who to her was giving her a way to make amends and to save her tribe. The farther she got away from the tribe the more determined in her own path she became as a means to undo what was happening to her. The mirror no longer was just a way to restore Dalish history, but it was to be the savior of her tribe. She was to be the savior of the tribe by restoring it, and they would love her rather than fear and hate her. I am not saying by any means that Merrill started out this way but it evolved into this.
This is supported by the situation when confronting the pride demon in the final battle. The dead images that came back kept accusing this of all being Merrill's fault, taunting her and crushing her spirit, which is what happened the entire time you were going back and forth to the Dalish. I'll admit this didn't make sense to me at first. However, isolating her and doing this at the same time this made her more determined to make amends and restore her reputation by the only means she could see, which was restoring the mirror. Merrill's actions only encourage the tribe's uneasiness as they are horribly afraid of blood magic, bad things are happening, she has isolated herself and yet returns on frequent occassions to say I'm going to save you all, but otherwise has no relation to their daily lives and was the one who seemed to start this mess in the first place with her blood magic and is continuing it by trying to restore something that, while it may be part of their history, also killed someone when it was last used. I think she was gradually going crazy in her obsession with the mirror, which was what the demon wanted so she would finish it and not turn back, and could make her its first victim. In payment for being foolhardy and thinking that she could handle it, it would kill her.
The player is in a position from the very start of this to help determine its outcome. The choices are to encourage Merrill along this dangerous path by coddling her, protecting her from the truth which is something that everyone, including even the most stubborn player should be able to see, keep telling her that she's going to save her tribe and not making a mistake, or the alternative...which I haven't explored yet because this is a *long* game...but there does seem to be a path to be firm with her but not unloving, rediculing her probably would only work to the demon's advantage as well.
If you choose the first path you assist a demon and she turns into a narcissist and end up slaying her whole tribe to protect her. I am not sure yet what happens with the second, but I'm going to find out.
This is so cool...I don't think I've ever seen anything like this in the history of my playing a game.
#106
Posté 26 avril 2011 - 02:18
Joy Divison
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ejoslin wrote...
People sell Zevran short all the time -- it doesn't bother me at all. I think male pixels get much harsher treatment than female ones (well, at least the harsh treatment is different) -- trust me when I say I get bored when people describe how much they hate him and how quickly they slit his throat. Fenris gets that as well. I do understand wanting to stand up for the characters that engage you, though.
The one question Merrill never addresses is what the demon wants in return. You know what she wants (her people's past glory), and you know she will do about anything to get it once the demon shows it to her. But demons are not known for being aulturistic.
If the demon wasn't going to get anything out of that mirror being restored, why did it call out to Marethari and Merrill? Why did it tempt them? It has to have some sort of stake in it, and what Marethari believes is the most plausible explanation I've heard -- far more plausible than the demon just wanting to help the elves.
Is what I believe canon? Her story seemed pretty clear to me, but obviously other people see it differently so of course what I say is only my interpretation. Merrill and the keeper are fascinated by the mirror and take a shard. Once they get to the Free Marches, they settle in a place where the veil is thin and there's a captured spirit (just an unhappy coincidence). The demon calls to them, they both respond to see what it is. They both recognize it as a demon, but where Marethari resists it, Merrill deals with it. And in the process ends up losing all that is dear to her due to the obsession.
In fact, I take a sympathetic view of Merrill. I don't think she was evil and I think she had the best of intentions. I think she was weak. She may be strong enough to not be possessed, but she was not strong enough to resist the deal though part of her knew better than to trust it. I think her story is tragic -- she wants something so wonderful and selfless, and loses everything she held dear in the process. I think she thought she was using the demon, not the other way around.
Interesting, I'd almost bet real money women are judged by much stricter standards than men...
Naturally the demon wants something. We do not know what that is. Merrill knows this. Merrill recognizes the eluvian may in fact mean her demise but is willing to accept that risk in the chance for a chance at success. While I do no think her course of action is wise, judicious, or far-sighted, it is wholly different from naivety, weakness, or narcissim.
I do agree Marethari's analysis of why the demon wants the eluvian restored is the most plausible. And to Merrill's credit she recognizes this is a very real possibility. I don't think Merrill defenders will dispute this. Where the argument comes, and why I believe Merrill looks *much* better than Marethari is how both react to what appears to be the climax in the battle of wills between the demon and Merrill. Marethari abandons her caution, her wisdom, her foresight, and pursues a reckless course to save someone who does not want to be saved. Merrill did *not* cause this, did not ask for it, and could not have foresen the Keeper would act so un-Keeperlike. A powerful mage getting voluntary possessed without moving the clan or telling anyone? Just about any other course of action would have been better Merrill recognizes she may in fact lose this battle of wills (does any other mage in Origins and DA2 consider this?) and is prudent enough to ensure if she does lose, only she will pay the price. I consider Merrill's act obsessive and self-destructive, but the tragedy that unfolds - and there is no doubting her story is by far the most tragic - can not be laid at her feet.
#107
Posté 26 avril 2011 - 02:32
loranna238
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Joy Divison wrote...
Interesting, I'd almost bet real money women are judged by much stricter standards than men...
Naturally the demon wants something. We do not know what that is. Merrill knows this. Merrill recognizes the eluvian may in fact mean her demise but is willing to accept that risk in the chance for a chance at success. While I do no think her course of action is wise, judicious, or far-sighted, it is wholly different from naivety, weakness, or narcissim.
I do agree Marethari's analysis of why the demon wants the eluvian restored is the most plausible. And to Merrill's credit she recognizes this is a very real possibility. I don't think Merrill defenders will dispute this. Where the argument comes, and why I believe Merrill looks *much* better than Marethari is how both react to what appears to be the climax in the battle of wills between the demon and Merrill. Marethari abandons her caution, her wisdom, her foresight, and pursues a reckless course to save someone who does not want to be saved. Merrill did *not* cause this, did not ask for it, and could not have foresen the Keeper would act so un-Keeperlike. A powerful mage getting voluntary possessed without moving the clan or telling anyone? Just about any other course of action would have been better Merrill recognizes she may in fact lose this battle of wills (does any other mage in Origins and DA2 consider this?) and is prudent enough to ensure if she does lose, only she will pay the price. I consider Merrill's act obsessive and self-destructive, but the tragedy that unfolds - and there is no doubting her story is by far the most tragic - can not be laid at her feet.
The demon was playing them all, really. No one blames the demon, just like no one but Eve actually knew to blame the serpent in the Garden of Eden. Not even the elves see it was the demon who was manipulating everyone, including the Marathuri. The player's the only one that can put a stop to this. The reason I thought she was a narcissist was because I followed the path where you coddle and encourage her and don't ever tell her no, which made me ill in the end. To me she does *become* a narcissist if you follow this path, because of the demon and your own influence to puff up her pride and ignore everything else, because you never tell her to turn back regardless of the consequences and that it's not in any way her fault but everyone else's (and not even the demon's). I think with Merrill it is the best, most obvious illustrations what the effects of your decisions are. When I first started this thread I was trying to figure this out,I guess I should have presented it more as an argument. At that point I was certain of myself, however. She was wrong. But the thing that was pointed out to me is that the rivalry isn't meant to be bad necessarily, so next time I will play it differently.
#108
Posté 26 avril 2011 - 02:53
AgelessTimeless
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loranna238 wrote...
Ok, so reading this has helped my point of view a bit.
I still maintain that Merrill was a narcissist at the end if you follow the path where you coddle her and romance her, agreeing with her path and encouraging her in its wrongness. And I'm sorry, no matter what anyone says it was *wrong,* and creepy from the getgo. The outcome is proof enough for that to me, as you end up slaughtering the remainder of the elven nation. It only reinforces its wrongess where she is in front of the mirror saying about how they killed themselves rather than reject her superior help, and excusing it that way, which of course the player encourages her in.
(shudder)
But maybe this can change in the game if you follow a different route. Perhaps Merrill didn't start out so bad and you can assist her in not going that way. Either way, it feels unnatural to me to follow the route where you indulge this sort of thing.
I still maintain that she was not narcissistic at any point and that the path was not creepy or wrong. Of course that is because I see things in a different light and the remainder of the elven nation commits suicide by Hawke. That was their choice to act like idiots and attack even if you try to explain what happened.
I can't see it as being Merrill's fault as all she did was make every effort to actually achieve the goal of her people. This cannot be emphasized enough.
Thirdly and this rather kills the whole she is a narcissist who only loves/cares about herself is if you play through the quest "Best Served Cold" in which she is the one who gets kidnapped and watch the cutscene at the end she says and I am paraphrasing this "When I thought they were going to lock me up, the one thing I couldn't live without... Was you." Sure doesn't seem like a narcissist who only cares about fixing that mirror for her own gain. And a note that takes place BEFORE the mirror gets broken and her clan gets killed. She doesn't say that the thing she couldn't live without was the mirror, no, she says what she couldn't live without was your character.
#109
Posté 26 avril 2011 - 02:56
LobselVith8
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A. Fox wrote...
Merrill is just terribly naïve. She claims she's aware of the consequences, but in truth, it's because she hopes that she will never have to face them.
That must explain why she asked Hawke to kill her if she lost a battle of wills with Aufacity.
A. Fox wrote...
That's why she says that if Marethari had believed in her nothing bad would have happened.
You mean nothing bad would happen to Marethari if Merrill was the one to put her life on the line, because Merrill wanted to only risk her life, not the lives of others in her quest for knowledge.
A. Fox wrote...
It's always about the 'what if' with her, and it's a 'what if' that never goes wrong. The mirror will bring doom, yeah but what if I bring back my people's golden age?
Merrill plans for things going wrong with the meeting with Audacity. That's why she brings Hawke along, who has experience with killing abominations and demons.
A. Fox wrote...
She believes in possibilities, which are usually unrealistic... but what if she was right the whole time? She's not evil, nor crazy, just... she just carried on with her vision.
Merrill wants to pursue her goal, which makes her no different than any other protagonist in a story who is willing to go the distance and do the same - including the Warden in Origins.
A. Fox wrote...
And it's arguably that what happened to her tribe was her fault... they seemed too eager to attack her. They feared change, and she brought up the possibility. It seems more like they gave her a straight NO instead of listening to her, and that just encouraged her in the opposite direction.
No, it wasn't her fault, because adults are responsible for their own actions. When Marethari makes a decision to allow a demon to enter her body because of her speculation about what the demon will do, that falls on her. When the clan tries to murder Hawke and Merrill because they don't like hearing the truth, the clan is responsible for their attempted murder of Merrill and her companions.
loranna238 wrote...
A. Fox wrote...
Merrill is just terribly naïve. She claims she's aware of the consequences, but in truth, it's because she hopes that she will never have to face them. That's why she says that if Marethari had believed in her nothing bad would have happened. It's always about the 'what if' with her, and it's a 'what if' that never goes wrong. The mirror will bring doom, yeah but what if I bring back my people's golden age? She believes in possibilities, which are usually unrealistic... but what if she was right the whole time? She's not evil, nor crazy, just... she just carried on with her vision.
And it's arguably that what happened to her tribe was her fault... they seemed too eager to attack her. They feared change, and she brought up the possibility. It seems more like they gave her a straight NO instead of listening to her, and that just encouraged her in the opposite direction.
To me, as this occurred over the process of nine years, that they had given her plenty of opportunity to rejoin the tribe and think like a normal person. Nine years is plenty of time to grow up.
I respectfully disagree. Merrill is grown up, but she does things you don't agree with. That's the issue with adults, it doesn't make her any less mature simply because she follows a path you don't particularly believe in. Its really no different than Sten and the Warden getting into it at Haven, where they have two differing opinions on what they are doing there. I can see that not everyone would agree with what Merrill has decided to pursue, but I don't see why their opinion should force Merrill to give up her goal because, in her POV, the pursuit of knowledge could irrevocably change the lives of the elves for the better.
#110
Posté 26 avril 2011 - 03:45
loranna238
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AgelessTimeless wrote...
loranna238 wrote...
Ok, so reading this has helped my point of view a bit.
I still maintain that Merrill was a narcissist at the end if you follow the path where you coddle her and romance her, agreeing with her path and encouraging her in its wrongness. And I'm sorry, no matter what anyone says it was *wrong,* and creepy from the getgo. The outcome is proof enough for that to me, as you end up slaughtering the remainder of the elven nation. It only reinforces its wrongess where she is in front of the mirror saying about how they killed themselves rather than reject her superior help, and excusing it that way, which of course the player encourages her in.
(shudder)
But maybe this can change in the game if you follow a different route. Perhaps Merrill didn't start out so bad and you can assist her in not going that way. Either way, it feels unnatural to me to follow the route where you indulge this sort of thing.
I still maintain that she was not narcissistic at any point and that the path was not creepy or wrong. Of course that is because I see things in a different light and the remainder of the elven nation commits suicide by Hawke. That was their choice to act like idiots and attack even if you try to explain what happened.
I can't see it as being Merrill's fault as all she did was make every effort to actually achieve the goal of her people. This cannot be emphasized enough.
Thirdly and this rather kills the whole she is a narcissist who only loves/cares about herself is if you play through the quest "Best Served Cold" in which she is the one who gets kidnapped and watch the cutscene at the end she says and I am paraphrasing this "When I thought they were going to lock me up, the one thing I couldn't live without... Was you." Sure doesn't seem like a narcissist who only cares about fixing that mirror for her own gain. And a note that takes place BEFORE the mirror gets broken and her clan gets killed. She doesn't say that the thing she couldn't live without was the mirror, no, she says what she couldn't live without was your character.
You and I just see things very differently - people who are dependent on other people in that manner frequently say that to other people as long as they don't challenge them at all. They also drive off their friends.
#111
Posté 27 avril 2011 - 01:53
dragonflight288
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I don't think Merrill is ever narcissistic, and I romanced her on the friendly path on my first playthrough. And killed her clan-that's right, it's not what's left of the elven nation. It's just a clan. There are many other dalish clans in the world, likely gathering together at their new homeland near Ostagar. I personally respect what the Dalish stand for. Reading Dalish lore and hearing their tale in Origins, they are pretty clear about their mission.
1. Gather and relearn all the lost knowledge of Arlathan so that they may rebuild.
2. When they have a homeland, they will use their knowledge of the old ways to teach the City Elves who have lived subjugated by the humans (and some surface dwarves) for centuries and had forgotten they could be anything more than second class citizens.
3. Rebuild their lost kingdom, and prevent it from falling to the humans a third time.
Pretty basic and upfront. That is the purpose that all the clans have united under. How they do it is based on each clan's keeper guiding them. And the keepers are always mages. And should a Keeper become an abomination, it is the clan's duty to kill him or her.
So I'm going to go through the events of DA2 from my own point of view. I respect if any of you disagree with my assessments on how this makes Merrill a good person who isn't narcissistic no matter the friendly or rivalry meter, but please respect my opinions as well. I'm open to debates and discussions. Not arguments.
My sarcastic mage Hawke (first playthrough) promises to deliver an amulet to a dalish elf clan north by Kirkwall, a clan that was still in Ferelden at the time (Dalish Origin took place right before Ostagar and it would take time to get to Kirkwall) Several weeks-months later, Hawke joins a mercenary band to enter Kirkwall for a year. After that year is up he goes to Sundermount rather reluctantly to keep his promise, where the Dalish elves were waiting, but the guards were expecting an elf.
Merethari tells Hawke about a ritual that would need to be done, and that he should take her First with him after he's done. He sees Merrill using or examining something which she is very secretive about (I'm guessing it's the eluvian shard). He also discovers she is a blood mage as she uses her own blood to remove the barrier. She argues that it did indeed help them, and they didn't have a supply of lyrium hanging around to use so she has to rely on what she has.
They revive Flemeth, who warns Merrill about walking a path with her eyes shut, and then tells everyone to watch for a great moment of change and leap at it. Sink or swim in other words.
Merrill says she must leave because of ignorance. And talking to the shopkeeper in the Dalish clan reveals her departure hurt many of the clan (Act 1 when we return with Merrill in the party). Some in her clan misses her and wants her back.
My interpretation of this is pretty simple. Merrill recognizes that what she is doing is dangerous. Merethari said Merrill leaving was by Merrill's request. She wanted to keep the clan safe because of the dangers involved with the demon. And since the clan lost the halla, they can't just pick up their aravels and hoof it back to Fereldan where the elves now have a homeland (assuming they got the news being trapped in Kirkwall)
Then I come to Act 2 where Merrill finally tells Hawke about the Eluvian. And this is three years into their friendship. That means that Merrill has become confidant in Hawke for his ability to defend himself and handle danger, whether physical or intellectual. She believes she can trust him and tells him that she has been rebuilding it and had cleansed it of the darkspawn taint. But she needs a tool to finish it, so we must return to the Dalish.
At this point, what Hawke knows is that the Eluvian had been corrupted by the darkspawn, potentially killed two elves (dependable on the warden in origins, and Tamlen's fate remains completely unknown. Did he die? If he did then where's the body? Most likely he was transported through the eluvian to that other place Morrigan and my warden went. His trail did end at the eluvian and we know people can travel through them...heck he may even be a companion of Dragon Age 3 if that's true). Merrill has been living with the thing for four or five years already (I'm including the time it took to travel to Kirkwall and the year Hawke spent with the mercenaries) and she has not contracted the corruption.
So he has a choice, help her out in trying to restore the lost elven lore and knowledge through the eluvian, which is the first part of the Dalish mission mentioned above, or act on the belief that the mirror is too dangerous to mess around with. Neither of them know of any other Eluvian, nor has there been an artifact belonging solely to the elves found in who knows how long. Hawke decides to help her out because he honestly cannot think of any reason not to. She is his friend and so long as the mirror doesn't hurt anyone else then what's the harm? (this was my reasoning during my first play-through)
Hawke and Merrill show up at the Dalish camp, where once people were speaking to Merrill with warmth and longing for her to return, suddenly they are looking at her with fear, suspicion, and anger. They go into the Varterral's lair where Pol, the city-born and raised elf is even more terrified of her than he is of the varterral, running to his death. Before he runs off, he asks Hawke if he knows what she is or has done. I assume that he's talking about the blood magic there and is more affected by his Andrastian beliefs ("Thank the make...I mean the creators!") than he is by common sense.
Merrill had done nothing to harm Pol or the clan. As far as they should have known, Merrill was working on an elven artifact and left to rebuild it. After arriving back at the camp, Merethari admits to telling the clan that Merrill was a blood mage and could bring back the taint that cost them two hunters. Now suddenly it becomes clear that the entire clan is afraid of her. Merethari then tells Merrill that it isn't too late to come back.
I personally thought it was too late to come back the moment Pol ran to the varterral rather than talk to Merrill. I think Merethari was thinking more like a mother than she was like a Keeper at this point. The clan had no halla for their aravels, but three years IS a long time to dwell in a single area. Unless they had an excess of artifacts or lore, they likely could have packed up everything and traveled slowly to their new elven homeland. News about it should have reached the elves by then...unless they were feeling too self-righteous to listen to news coming from humans.
So Merrill gets her tool and once again, three years later is on the verge of finishing it. Having started with a single shard, a scrap of lore, she had spent maybe seven to eight years rebuilding a lost artifact that no one knew anything about. That would make Merrill the absolute authority on it. No one knew anything else about them. Not even Finn who only knew a great deal about the elven language and lore. At this point in time, the only person who may know more about them would be Morrigan who got her eluvian working and teleported away with it.
Merrill recognizes her ignorance, and as there isn't ANYONE else who knows more than she does, she has no choice but to return to the source of knowledge at first. The demon. Hawke agrees to go with her, and reluctantly agrees to kill her if she should turn into an abomination (they are romanced at this time). Without talking to Merethari, Merrill and Hawke travel up the mountain to the demon's cave. There, they find Merethari had already willingly taken in the demon and said she feared the demon would possess Merrill. So she let the demon possess her.
Merrill and Hawke are then forced to kill the Keeper. The Keeper who was an abomination, therefore it was the clan's duty to kill her regardless of their feelings. Merrill is heartbroken and is crying her eyes out. As they leave the cave, the Dalish elves come in and threaten Merrill, already accusing her of foul play. They call into the cave, asking for the Keeper.
Obviously they didn't know she was an abomination, or that she was dead. They are angry at Merrill, terrified and hated her because Merethari pretty much poisoned their thoughts (unintentionally in my opinion) against her. They were also fed up with staying in Kirkwall for so long and many of them wanted to leave. Merethari stayed for Merrill, and so she was an easy target of their anger and hate.
Hawke and Merrill try to explain that Merethari was an abomination and had been killed. The Dalish instantly blame Merrill, saying she drove Merethari to it and attack, demanding Hawe's and Merrill's death. Never mind the fact that the two of them did the duty they themselves should have done. Merrill and Hawke defend themselves and soon the entire clan is dead.
Merrill goes home and mourns, where Hawke must comfort her and help her start working and living for herself, not for a people who no longer accepted her. She accepts this and gives up on the mirror, leaving with Hawke to their estate.
---
That was my first play through of the game and his relationship with Merrill, along with my own thoughts as it happened. The part about Tamlen maybe surviving by going through the mirror actually just occurred to me as I was typing it all. I don't think Merrill is narcissistic or selfish. She was obsessed and had a tunnel-vision of the entire situation. She didn't listen to Merethari, but Merethari didn't listen to Merrill either. There was a great deal of pride and stubbornness on both sides.
1. Gather and relearn all the lost knowledge of Arlathan so that they may rebuild.
2. When they have a homeland, they will use their knowledge of the old ways to teach the City Elves who have lived subjugated by the humans (and some surface dwarves) for centuries and had forgotten they could be anything more than second class citizens.
3. Rebuild their lost kingdom, and prevent it from falling to the humans a third time.
Pretty basic and upfront. That is the purpose that all the clans have united under. How they do it is based on each clan's keeper guiding them. And the keepers are always mages. And should a Keeper become an abomination, it is the clan's duty to kill him or her.
So I'm going to go through the events of DA2 from my own point of view. I respect if any of you disagree with my assessments on how this makes Merrill a good person who isn't narcissistic no matter the friendly or rivalry meter, but please respect my opinions as well. I'm open to debates and discussions. Not arguments.
My sarcastic mage Hawke (first playthrough) promises to deliver an amulet to a dalish elf clan north by Kirkwall, a clan that was still in Ferelden at the time (Dalish Origin took place right before Ostagar and it would take time to get to Kirkwall) Several weeks-months later, Hawke joins a mercenary band to enter Kirkwall for a year. After that year is up he goes to Sundermount rather reluctantly to keep his promise, where the Dalish elves were waiting, but the guards were expecting an elf.
Merethari tells Hawke about a ritual that would need to be done, and that he should take her First with him after he's done. He sees Merrill using or examining something which she is very secretive about (I'm guessing it's the eluvian shard). He also discovers she is a blood mage as she uses her own blood to remove the barrier. She argues that it did indeed help them, and they didn't have a supply of lyrium hanging around to use so she has to rely on what she has.
They revive Flemeth, who warns Merrill about walking a path with her eyes shut, and then tells everyone to watch for a great moment of change and leap at it. Sink or swim in other words.
Merrill says she must leave because of ignorance. And talking to the shopkeeper in the Dalish clan reveals her departure hurt many of the clan (Act 1 when we return with Merrill in the party). Some in her clan misses her and wants her back.
My interpretation of this is pretty simple. Merrill recognizes that what she is doing is dangerous. Merethari said Merrill leaving was by Merrill's request. She wanted to keep the clan safe because of the dangers involved with the demon. And since the clan lost the halla, they can't just pick up their aravels and hoof it back to Fereldan where the elves now have a homeland (assuming they got the news being trapped in Kirkwall)
Then I come to Act 2 where Merrill finally tells Hawke about the Eluvian. And this is three years into their friendship. That means that Merrill has become confidant in Hawke for his ability to defend himself and handle danger, whether physical or intellectual. She believes she can trust him and tells him that she has been rebuilding it and had cleansed it of the darkspawn taint. But she needs a tool to finish it, so we must return to the Dalish.
At this point, what Hawke knows is that the Eluvian had been corrupted by the darkspawn, potentially killed two elves (dependable on the warden in origins, and Tamlen's fate remains completely unknown. Did he die? If he did then where's the body? Most likely he was transported through the eluvian to that other place Morrigan and my warden went. His trail did end at the eluvian and we know people can travel through them...heck he may even be a companion of Dragon Age 3 if that's true). Merrill has been living with the thing for four or five years already (I'm including the time it took to travel to Kirkwall and the year Hawke spent with the mercenaries) and she has not contracted the corruption.
So he has a choice, help her out in trying to restore the lost elven lore and knowledge through the eluvian, which is the first part of the Dalish mission mentioned above, or act on the belief that the mirror is too dangerous to mess around with. Neither of them know of any other Eluvian, nor has there been an artifact belonging solely to the elves found in who knows how long. Hawke decides to help her out because he honestly cannot think of any reason not to. She is his friend and so long as the mirror doesn't hurt anyone else then what's the harm? (this was my reasoning during my first play-through)
Hawke and Merrill show up at the Dalish camp, where once people were speaking to Merrill with warmth and longing for her to return, suddenly they are looking at her with fear, suspicion, and anger. They go into the Varterral's lair where Pol, the city-born and raised elf is even more terrified of her than he is of the varterral, running to his death. Before he runs off, he asks Hawke if he knows what she is or has done. I assume that he's talking about the blood magic there and is more affected by his Andrastian beliefs ("Thank the make...I mean the creators!") than he is by common sense.
Merrill had done nothing to harm Pol or the clan. As far as they should have known, Merrill was working on an elven artifact and left to rebuild it. After arriving back at the camp, Merethari admits to telling the clan that Merrill was a blood mage and could bring back the taint that cost them two hunters. Now suddenly it becomes clear that the entire clan is afraid of her. Merethari then tells Merrill that it isn't too late to come back.
I personally thought it was too late to come back the moment Pol ran to the varterral rather than talk to Merrill. I think Merethari was thinking more like a mother than she was like a Keeper at this point. The clan had no halla for their aravels, but three years IS a long time to dwell in a single area. Unless they had an excess of artifacts or lore, they likely could have packed up everything and traveled slowly to their new elven homeland. News about it should have reached the elves by then...unless they were feeling too self-righteous to listen to news coming from humans.
So Merrill gets her tool and once again, three years later is on the verge of finishing it. Having started with a single shard, a scrap of lore, she had spent maybe seven to eight years rebuilding a lost artifact that no one knew anything about. That would make Merrill the absolute authority on it. No one knew anything else about them. Not even Finn who only knew a great deal about the elven language and lore. At this point in time, the only person who may know more about them would be Morrigan who got her eluvian working and teleported away with it.
Merrill recognizes her ignorance, and as there isn't ANYONE else who knows more than she does, she has no choice but to return to the source of knowledge at first. The demon. Hawke agrees to go with her, and reluctantly agrees to kill her if she should turn into an abomination (they are romanced at this time). Without talking to Merethari, Merrill and Hawke travel up the mountain to the demon's cave. There, they find Merethari had already willingly taken in the demon and said she feared the demon would possess Merrill. So she let the demon possess her.
Merrill and Hawke are then forced to kill the Keeper. The Keeper who was an abomination, therefore it was the clan's duty to kill her regardless of their feelings. Merrill is heartbroken and is crying her eyes out. As they leave the cave, the Dalish elves come in and threaten Merrill, already accusing her of foul play. They call into the cave, asking for the Keeper.
Obviously they didn't know she was an abomination, or that she was dead. They are angry at Merrill, terrified and hated her because Merethari pretty much poisoned their thoughts (unintentionally in my opinion) against her. They were also fed up with staying in Kirkwall for so long and many of them wanted to leave. Merethari stayed for Merrill, and so she was an easy target of their anger and hate.
Hawke and Merrill try to explain that Merethari was an abomination and had been killed. The Dalish instantly blame Merrill, saying she drove Merethari to it and attack, demanding Hawe's and Merrill's death. Never mind the fact that the two of them did the duty they themselves should have done. Merrill and Hawke defend themselves and soon the entire clan is dead.
Merrill goes home and mourns, where Hawke must comfort her and help her start working and living for herself, not for a people who no longer accepted her. She accepts this and gives up on the mirror, leaving with Hawke to their estate.
---
That was my first play through of the game and his relationship with Merrill, along with my own thoughts as it happened. The part about Tamlen maybe surviving by going through the mirror actually just occurred to me as I was typing it all. I don't think Merrill is narcissistic or selfish. She was obsessed and had a tunnel-vision of the entire situation. She didn't listen to Merethari, but Merethari didn't listen to Merrill either. There was a great deal of pride and stubbornness on both sides.
#112
Posté 27 avril 2011 - 02:13
Emperor Iaius I
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Great analysis.Very perspicacious.
#113
Posté 27 avril 2011 - 02:33
LT123
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@dragonflight
About Tamlen: not sure if you were going off Hawke's knowledge or your own, but Tamlen's definitely dead. As a Dalish, you run into him, transformed into a ghoul, after three main quests in Origins during the shriek attack on your camp. He talks to you and asks you to kill him, then attacks. Alistair then says something along the lines of "Killing him was a mercy."
There's been times where I've missed the shriek attack, for some reason, so it just might not have triggered for you.
Annndd I thought Addai recorded it and put it on Youtube, and she did. Here it is:
Thanks @ Addai for posting that video, by that way: I'd never heard the "You left me there to die, and now I'm going to kill you" line. Very sad.
About Tamlen: not sure if you were going off Hawke's knowledge or your own, but Tamlen's definitely dead. As a Dalish, you run into him, transformed into a ghoul, after three main quests in Origins during the shriek attack on your camp. He talks to you and asks you to kill him, then attacks. Alistair then says something along the lines of "Killing him was a mercy."
There's been times where I've missed the shriek attack, for some reason, so it just might not have triggered for you.
Annndd I thought Addai recorded it and put it on Youtube, and she did. Here it is:
Thanks @ Addai for posting that video, by that way: I'd never heard the "You left me there to die, and now I'm going to kill you" line. Very sad.
#114
Posté 27 avril 2011 - 02:46
Meyne
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LT123 wrote...
Thanks @ Addai for posting that video, by that way: I'd never heard the "You left me there to die, and now I'm going to kill you" line. Very sad.
I got the "always loved you" line.
#115
Posté 27 avril 2011 - 02:51
LT123
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Meyne wrote...
LT123 wrote...
Thanks @ Addai for posting that video, by that way: I'd never heard the "You left me there to die, and now I'm going to kill you" line. Very sad.
I got the "always loved you" line.
Yeah, the "You left me to die" line is what he yells as a battlecry as he attacks you.
On my first playthrough, which was a female Dalish, I met the ghost Tamlen in the Gauntlet and went "Aww, so that's what happened to him. He died." Then I went on my merry way and ran into ghoul Tamlen back at camp.
The "I always loved you. I'm so sorry" gets me every time I play a female Dalish.
I hope you enjoy my emotional pain and suffering, writers.
#116
Posté 27 avril 2011 - 02:54
Gibb_Shepard
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Lol, Merill's not evil, nor crazy. She's just completely off the scale in the naivety/ignorance department.
#117
Posté 27 avril 2011 - 03:10
LobselVith8
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Gibb_Shepard wrote...
Lol, Merill's not evil, nor crazy. She's just completely off the scale in the naivety/ignorance department.
I notice a lot of people dismiss Merrill as being ignorant or naive simply because she does something they don't agree with.
#118
Posté 27 avril 2011 - 03:23
TEWR
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First off, I like what you posted dragonflight. I agree with you for the most part. I'm just going to point out a few things.
Immediately after Mahariel leaves or dies and they bury him, they pack up. It probably took a couple of weeks for Duncan and Mahariel to reach Ostagar, so they settled in at Sundermount before Hawke met Flemeth. Or, Flemeth predicted the future. Wouldn't be the first time.
Well, if you play the Dalish Elf Origin, you kill Tamlen when the Shrieks attack you. What happens to him on other playthroughs I don't know. I assume he just died from the taint since he was a ghoul.
I just want to say that I don't understand Marethari's reasoning.
"She'll bring back the taint!"
*clan is now afraid*
"Da'len, it is not too late. Return home."
If she was tainted, ceasing contact with a tainted piece of glass in your care for years wouldn't cease contracting the taint. And since she wasn't, returning home would just mean that either A) the clan will distrust her and be fearful or
Marethari says she lied and then the clan distrusts Marethari. Good logic there keeper.
Honestly, I blame Marethari 100%. While I admire her motherly instincts, she was still a fool for spreading lies about a person whom she probably considered her daughter and becoming an abomination
My sarcastic mage Hawke (first playthrough) promises to deliver an amulet to a dalish elf clan north by Kirkwall, a clan that was still in Ferelden at the time (Dalish Origin took place right before Ostagar and it would take time to get to Kirkwall) Several weeks-months later, Hawke joins a mercenary band to enter Kirkwall for a year. After that year is up he goes to Sundermount rather reluctantly to keep his promise, where the Dalish elves were waiting, but the guards were expecting an elf.
Immediately after Mahariel leaves or dies and they bury him, they pack up. It probably took a couple of weeks for Duncan and Mahariel to reach Ostagar, so they settled in at Sundermount before Hawke met Flemeth. Or, Flemeth predicted the future. Wouldn't be the first time.
At this point, what Hawke knows is that the Eluvian had been corrupted by the darkspawn, potentially killed two elves (dependable on the warden in origins, and Tamlen's fate remains completely unknown. Did he die? If he did then where's the body? Most likely he was transported through the eluvian to that other place Morrigan and my warden went. His trail did end at the eluvian and we know people can travel through them...heck he may even be a companion of Dragon Age 3 if that's true). Merrill has been living with the thing for four or five years already (I'm including the time it took to travel to Kirkwall and the year Hawke spent with the mercenaries) and she has not contracted the corruption.
Well, if you play the Dalish Elf Origin, you kill Tamlen when the Shrieks attack you. What happens to him on other playthroughs I don't know. I assume he just died from the taint since he was a ghoul.
I personally thought it was too late to come back the moment Pol ran to the varterral rather than talk to Merrill. I think Merethari was thinking more like a mother than she was like a Keeper at this point. The clan had no halla for their aravels, but three years IS a long time to dwell in a single area. Unless they had an excess of artifacts or lore, they likely could have packed up everything and traveled slowly to their new elven homeland. News about it should have reached the elves by then...unless they were feeling too self-righteous to listen to news coming from humans.
I just want to say that I don't understand Marethari's reasoning.
"She'll bring back the taint!"
*clan is now afraid*
"Da'len, it is not too late. Return home."
If she was tainted, ceasing contact with a tainted piece of glass in your care for years wouldn't cease contracting the taint. And since she wasn't, returning home would just mean that either A) the clan will distrust her and be fearful or
Marethari says she lied and then the clan distrusts Marethari. Good logic there keeper.Honestly, I blame Marethari 100%. While I admire her motherly instincts, she was still a fool for spreading lies about a person whom she probably considered her daughter and becoming an abomination
Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 27 avril 2011 - 03:25 .
#119
Posté 27 avril 2011 - 03:24
dragonflight288
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LT, thanks for that about Tamlen. Yup. I completely missed it. Still would have been interesting to have him as a companion in Dragon Age 3 or see him and Morrigan meet in that other place. Ah well.
I also really like reading your break down and logical thoughts about things Etheral Writer. I appreciate how you expanded on my thoughts.
I also really like reading your break down and logical thoughts about things Etheral Writer. I appreciate how you expanded on my thoughts.
Modifié par dragonflight288, 27 avril 2011 - 03:26 .
#120
Posté 27 avril 2011 - 03:27
TEWR
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LobselVith8 wrote...
Gibb_Shepard wrote...
Lol, Merill's not evil, nor crazy. She's just completely off the scale in the naivety/ignorance department.
I notice a lot of people dismiss Merrill as being ignorant or naive simply because she does something they don't agree with.
And you and I are usually the ones who try to point out how wrong they are.
history repeats itself.
#121
Posté 27 avril 2011 - 03:30
TEWR
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dragonflight288 wrote...
I also really like reading your break down and logical thoughts about things Etheral Writer. I appreciate how you expanded on my thoughts.
No problem. It was a very well thought out and interesting response, which I enjoyed reading. When characters like Merrill are able to provide such great discussions on their persona, things were definitely done right.
Plus, you're a fellow Merrill lover. That's an automatic win in my book
#122
Posté 27 avril 2011 - 03:42
dragonflight288
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I agree. I find that when I argue an opinion about a character, it's best to work with actual facts as they happen, and what can be known at that point in time. Anyone can argue the meaning behind a sentence someone said. It is much harder to argue actions and events. Hence my very long analysis.
PS: While I love Merrill, my sister who also loves the game hates her, so we have good times. hahaha.
PS: While I love Merrill, my sister who also loves the game hates her, so we have good times. hahaha.
#123
Posté 27 avril 2011 - 04:02
Gibb_Shepard
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LobselVith8 wrote...
Gibb_Shepard wrote...
Lol, Merill's not evil, nor crazy. She's just completely off the scale in the naivety/ignorance department.
I notice a lot of people dismiss Merrill as being ignorant or naive simply because she does something they don't agree with.
Are you daft? She has NO idea what she's doing. She is COMPLETELY ignorant to the dangers of demons. Whether or not i agree with it has absolutely nothing to do with anything. If she knew anything about what she was dealing with, i wouldn't be calling her naive or ignorant, would I?
Just listen to her banter about demons, she is so naive it hurts physically hurts.
#124
Posté 27 avril 2011 - 04:02
TEWR
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dragonflight288 wrote...
I agree. I find that when I argue an opinion about a character, it's best to work with actual facts as they happen, and what can be known at that point in time. Anyone can argue the meaning behind a sentence someone said. It is much harder to argue actions and events. Hence my very long analysis.
Agreed.
I really have no more to say to that point lol.
PS: While I love Merrill, my sister who also loves the game hates her, so we have good times. hahaha.
this is what I say to all Merrill haters and bashers:
#125
Posté 27 avril 2011 - 04:09
TEWR
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Gibb_Shepard wrote...
LobselVith8 wrote...
Gibb_Shepard wrote...
Lol, Merill's not evil, nor crazy. She's just completely off the scale in the naivety/ignorance department.
I notice a lot of people dismiss Merrill as being ignorant or naive simply because she does something they don't agree with.
Are you daft? She has NO idea what she's doing. She is COMPLETELY ignorant to the dangers of demons. Whether or not i agree with it has absolutely nothing to do with anything. If she knew anything about what she was dealing with, i wouldn't be calling her naive or ignorant, would I?
Just listen to her banter about demons, she is so naive it hurts physically hurts.
I'm expecting this post to appear under my other post, which I hate. But it cannot be helped.
- So, she's naive and ignorant because she recognizes all spirits are dangerous? That there is no real good spirit? You're saying she's wrong on that point? Ok..... to that I say Justice. He's become a dangerous spirit.
- She is not ignorant to the dangers of demons. If she was, she wouldn't have worried about becoming an abomination. It's unlikely this would've happened because the spirit was trapped in a statue for centuries, but she still took precautions. That hardly sounds like a woman ignorant of the dangers of spirits.
- She knows what she's dealing with. She is a mage well versed in the Arcane. She knows how to defend herself in the Fade. "The only thing you can believe is yourself". She betrays you in the Fade not because she accepted the demon's deal, but because it forced her to, much like the Sloth Demon's minions did to most of your companions in Broken Circle. She even tells you as much. Doesn't sound naive or ignorant to me.
