407 réponses à ce sujet

[christrek1982]

TheAwesomologist wrote...

phyreblade74 wrote...
Ironically enough, since you posted this. I was struggling last night with wondering if I should take her friend or rival, just as I was preparing to head into the fade to save Feynrael. She was leaning to friend with me at that point, and I was tempted to follow along that path, just to see where it'd end up. And then she said, of Feynrael, "The Keeper will help this half-breed but not me?!" I was stunned, sitting there, thinking of how utterly selfish of her that was, how myopic a view it was. Rival it is, shrug.

I've romanced Merrill 3 times and always take her to the fade with me*, but I have yet to hear her utter that line. In fact when the little cut scene of Merethari walking around the alienage happens she never appears on screen. Sad. I was hoping for more interaction between Merrill and the Keeper.

*I accept the deal. Talent points are just to hard to pass up. Sorry kid, you're worth more XP in Act 3 this way too.

Anyways, back to the topic.

I have had this line but I see it as a deep seated anger and sence that she a born and bread dailish elf is left as an outcast who was never truly accepted into the clan after all she isn't a blood memder of the saber clan) and it's not that far of a stretch to thing that Merrill was always seen as nothing more than a means to an end. IE first to the keeper.

another thing that makes me think this is that she is never shown any true wormth or love from other clan member other than the keeper.

and she is angery because the keeper is willing to help the human elfblooded boy. I also think that the clan only accept the boy into there ranks as a replacment mage untill they can convibce merrill to come back or something better comes along

[dragonflight288]

Gibb_Sheberd

Are you daft? She has NO idea what she's doing. She is COMPLETELY
ignorant to the dangers of demons. Whether or not i agree with it has
absolutely nothing to do with anything. If she knew anything about what
she was dealing with, i wouldn't be calling her naive or ignorant, would
I?

Just listen to her banter about demons, she is so naive it hurts physically hurts.

It is standard (at least my standards) that when people discuss or debate something, it is best to use examples to support your opinion. My sister, as I said earlier, doesn't like Merrill at all. My sister's reasons were quite simple.

1. She is very secretive when we first meet her. That raised my sister's red flags up quickly.
2. She made a deal with a demon. Those never turn out well.
3. My sister supports Merethari's position more than she does Merrill's.

My opinions are very different, and I'm not repeating them (that was a long explanation I wrote earlier, I'm giving my fingers a rest.) But I will give a couple of banter examples to show she isn't ignorant.

Merrill and Anders

Merrill: I'm sorry.
Anders: For what?
Merrill: For not understanding there is no such thing as a good spirit. (paraphrased. I know there's more to it, but I can't remember the other stuff, but that's what she says)

Sebastian and Merrill

Sebastian: Have you heard the Chant of Light?
Merrill: Is that what they're singing all the time? It has nice rhythm, but repetitive.
Sebastian: It allows us to show our faith to the maker. Surely you know that.
Merrill: I think it's a nice story, but it is full of holes.

This shows that Merrill is not accepting things at face value in Kirkwall. She also has one with Anders where they're discussing the virtues of spirits in the fade. She pretty much tells him that a spirit cannot be true models of that virtue or vice because every one is different. I support that idea from the mage origin story. The sloth demon there was very different from the sloth demon in Dragon Age 2.

Modifié par dragonflight288, 27 avril 2011 - 04:23 .

[TEWR]

christrek1982 wrote...

TheAwesomologist wrote...

phyreblade74 wrote...
Ironically enough, since you posted this. I was struggling last night with wondering if I should take her friend or rival, just as I was preparing to head into the fade to save Feynrael. She was leaning to friend with me at that point, and I was tempted to follow along that path, just to see where it'd end up. And then she said, of Feynrael, "The Keeper will help this half-breed but not me?!" I was stunned, sitting there, thinking of how utterly selfish of her that was, how myopic a view it was. Rival it is, shrug.

I've romanced Merrill 3 times and always take her to the fade with me*, but I have yet to hear her utter that line. In fact when the little cut scene of Merethari walking around the alienage happens she never appears on screen. Sad. I was hoping for more interaction between Merrill and the Keeper.

*I accept the deal. Talent points are just to hard to pass up. Sorry kid, you're worth more XP in Act 3 this way too.

Anyways, back to the topic.

I have had this line but I see it as a deep seated anger and sence that she a born and bread dailish elf is left as an outcast who was never truly accepted into the clan after all she isn't a blood memder of the saber clan) and it's not that far of a stretch to thing that Merrill was always seen as nothing more than a means to an end. IE first to the keeper.

another thing that makes me think this is that she is never shown any true wormth or love from other clan member other than the keeper.

and she is angery because the keeper is willing to help the human elfblooded boy. I also think that the clan only accept the boy into there ranks as a replacment mage untill they can convibce merrill to come back or something better comes along

The sad thing is, the only person who ever showed her warmth and affection aside from Marethari is either dead or a Grey Warden. And he/she has now vanished. Though so has Hawke and his romance, so maybe Merrill will one day see Mahariel again if people romanced her.

I guess Marethari felt that she needed to help save Feynriel because he was a Dreamer and if left unchecked would become a nigh unstoppable Abomination. Merrill didn't even know that he was a Dreamer, so I guess she just chalked it up to him being another mage.

And maybe Merrill felt that Marethari would help Feynriel with his problems, but not hers when she was stuck on a problem with the Eluvian. That had to hurt her.

Personally, and I just thought of this now so I have to figure out the details and won't post them now, I see the Eluvian as not only a piece of Elven lore but a symbol. A lot of things in DA2 are, though I may be reading too much into it.

Also, and I've posted this theory somewhere before (might've been this thread. I don't know. But it was definitely on a Merrill bashing thread), but what if the spirit wasn't a demon but just a spirit like Justice and Faith? And Marethari's bold and reckless move that was housing the demon inside herself corrupted it much like we believe Justice was corrupted? what Marethari did was the very definition of Audacity. Spirits don't condemn Blood Magic to our knowledge, so it's possible that a spirit knew how to use it and knew it would help Merrill.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 27 avril 2011 - 04:43 .

[dragonflight288]

The Etheral Writer Redux

The sad thing is, the only person who ever showed her warmth and affection aside from Marethari is either dead or a Grey Warden. And he/she has now vanished. Though so has Hawke and his romance, so maybe Merrill will one day see Mahariel again if people romanced her.

I guess Marethari felt that she needed to help save Feynriel because he was a Dreamer and if left unchecked would become a nigh unstoppable Abomination. Merrill didn't even know that he was a Dreamer, so I guess she just chalked it up to him being another mage.

And maybe Merrill felt that Marethari would help Feynriel with his problems, but not hers when she was stuck on a problem with the Eluvian. That had to hurt her.

Personally, and I just thought of this now so I have to figure out the details and won't post them now, I see the Eluvian as not only a piece of Elven lore but a symbol. A lot of things in DA2 are, though I may be reading too much into it.

Also, and I've posted this theory somewhere before (might've been this thread. I don't know. But it was definitely on a Merrill bashing thread), but what if the spirit wasn't a demon but just a spirit like Justice and Faith? And Marethari's bold and reckless move that was housing the demon inside herself corrupted it much like we believe Justice was corrupted? what Marethari did was the very definition of Audacity. Spirits don't condemn Blood Magic, so it's possible that a spirit knew how to use it.

Entirely possible. I have read bioware's background on Merrill before the release of the game, and it called out to Merethari and Merrill at the same time. Merethari outright rejected talking to it but Merrill stopped and listened for a little. I am roughly 85-90% sure that it's a demon right off the bat, hoping to find a way to escape. I don't see how it can escape through the Eluvian like Merethari claims, but I think it is definitely trying to escape.

[TEWR]

dragonflight288 wrote...

The Etheral Writer Redux

The sad thing is, the only person who ever showed her warmth and affection aside from Marethari is either dead or a Grey Warden. And he/she has now vanished. Though so has Hawke and his romance, so maybe Merrill will one day see Mahariel again if people romanced her.

I guess Marethari felt that she needed to help save Feynriel because he was a Dreamer and if left unchecked would become a nigh unstoppable Abomination. Merrill didn't even know that he was a Dreamer, so I guess she just chalked it up to him being another mage.

And maybe Merrill felt that Marethari would help Feynriel with his problems, but not hers when she was stuck on a problem with the Eluvian. That had to hurt her.

Personally, and I just thought of this now so I have to figure out the details and won't post them now, I see the Eluvian as not only a piece of Elven lore but a symbol. A lot of things in DA2 are, though I may be reading too much into it.

Also, and I've posted this theory somewhere before (might've been this thread. I don't know. But it was definitely on a Merrill bashing thread), but what if the spirit wasn't a demon but just a spirit like Justice and Faith? And Marethari's bold and reckless move that was housing the demon inside herself corrupted it much like we believe Justice was corrupted? what Marethari did was the very definition of Audacity. Spirits don't condemn Blood Magic, so it's possible that a spirit knew how to use it.

Entirely possible. I have read bioware's background on Merrill before the release of the game, and it called out to Merethari and Merrill at the same time. Merethari outright rejected talking to it but Merrill stopped and listened for a little. I am roughly 85-90% sure that it's a demon right off the bat, hoping to find a way to escape. I don't see how it can escape through the Eluvian like Merethari claims, but I think it is definitely trying to escape.

I wonder if it was manipulating Marethari and not Merrill... bah that's just a groundless theory. I'll let it float away until there's more evidence that might support it.

Never mind about Audacity being a friendly spirit. Having reread it the demon identified itself as Audacity from the get-go. I haven't read that story in months, so I had forgotten. But I can definitely appreciate it even more than I first did because of Merrill's.... Merrilliness.

However, Marethari even says this very phrase:

"Bound to the statue. It will not threaten the camp."

yet in DA2 she believes otherwise. Another reason why I blame Marethari for everything. she knew then that the Demon was no threat, yet she changes her stance later when it still isn't a threat? *Sigh...*

 

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 27 avril 2011 - 05:05 .

[TheBlackBaron]

loranna238 wrote...
*snip*

All I can say is, you seem to be taking Marethari's assertions about the mirror and the demon as fact. She could be right, but there's no evidence at all to suggest that what Marethari claims is true (neither is ther any to suggest she's wrong, of course). You're entitled to your opinions, but your entire view of Merrill and her suppossed narcissism hinges on the above. So this suppossed "truth that even the most stubborn of players should be able to see" is entirely subjective. 

You also seem to be ignoring the role that the Dalish's pride, stubborness, and outright xenophobia played in their deaths. None of the bad things happening to the clan, such as the corruption of the Varterral, are Merrill's fault. Their own ignorance and Marethari's words is what leads them to blame her. 

Modifié par TheBlackBaron, 27 avril 2011 - 05:15 .

[dragonflight288]

Taking that story into account, and the events leading up to the great Dalish tragedy, I honestly have come to believe that there is more evidence to support the demon's target was Merethari and that Merrill in her quest for restoring the Eluvian was just a tool. Merethari was overprotective of Merrill, she put being a mother over being Keeper. She fed the Dalish information on Merrill full of falsehoods mixed with facts (fact: She has practiced blood magic-Fiction: She is bringing back the taint)

The demon is bound within a statue, It's not connected to the Fade, so unless the demon is teaching Merrill how to connect the eluvian to the statue, that's not an escape route. Merethari obviously thinks it is. So, dare I say it-Merethari had the audacity to willingly become an abomination in her belief it'll save Merrill. She set herself up to take the fall and didn't even stop to think about the "what happens after" concerning the rest of the clan.

Taking all this information in, and the fact that the demon tries to trick Merrill again, then maybe stab her, that the target was Merethari from the very beginning. Merrill and the eluvian were both tools.

[TEWR]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Taking that story into account, and the events leading up to the great Dalish tragedy, I honestly have come to believe that there is more evidence to support the demon's target was Merethari and that Merrill in her quest for restoring the Eluvian was just a tool. Merethari was overprotective of Merrill, she put being a mother over being Keeper. She fed the Dalish information on Merrill full of falsehoods mixed with facts (fact: She has practiced blood magic-Fiction: She is bringing back the taint)

The demon is bound within a statue, It's not connected to the Fade, so unless the demon is teaching Merrill how to connect the eluvian to the statue, that's not an escape route. Merethari obviously thinks it is. So, dare I say it-Merethari had the audacity to willingly become an abomination in her belief it'll save Merrill. She set herself up to take the fall and didn't even stop to think about the "what happens after" concerning the rest of the clan.

Taking all this information in, and the fact that the demon tries to trick Merrill again, then maybe stab her, that the target was Merethari from the very beginning. Merrill and the eluvian were both tools.

You are now one of my heroes. I'm going to copy, paste, and save this to a word file so that if anyone ever says Merrill was the target, I can show your post to them.

[Nameless2345]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Taking that story into account, and the events leading up to the great Dalish tragedy, I honestly have come to believe that there is more evidence to support the demon's target was Merethari and that Merrill in her quest for restoring the Eluvian was just a tool. Merethari was overprotective of Merrill, she put being a mother over being Keeper. She fed the Dalish information on Merrill full of falsehoods mixed with facts (fact: She has practiced blood magic-Fiction: She is bringing back the taint)

The demon is bound within a statue, It's not connected to the Fade, so unless the demon is teaching Merrill how to connect the eluvian to the statue, that's not an escape route. Merethari obviously thinks it is. So, dare I say it-Merethari had the audacity to willingly become an abomination in her belief it'll save Merrill. She set herself up to take the fall and didn't even stop to think about the "what happens after" concerning the rest of the clan.

Taking all this information in, and the fact that the demon tries to trick Merrill again, then maybe stab her, that the target was Merethari from the very beginning. Merrill and the eluvian were both tools.

That's what I was thinking as well. I mean, how did Marethari know what the demon's intentions were? It's not like Eluvians were made specifically for bringing demons from the Fade or statues. Only one person could tell what the demon was going to do, namely the demon himself. And why would he do it if not to manipulate her? Demons lie.

  Also, is it even possible to _force_ pride demon to possess someone against its will? If not, Audacity had freely chosen to possess Marethari instead of coming through the Eluvian. Why did he choose the former and battle of wills against Marethari if the latter was such a sure deal as Marethari thinks? 


I also wonder what would happen if H., being very, very charismatic, would persuade Merrill in the Act 3 to abandon Eluvian and, say, work on improving lives of city elves? In that case Dalish clan would have a ticking time bomb in their midst, namely a possessed Keeper. How long would she be able to keep it under control?
People like to talk about Merrill's irresponsibility, foolishness and obsession, and they aren't wrong,  but look at her mentor. 

Modifié par Nameless2345, 27 avril 2011 - 06:46 .

[dragonflight288]

The Etheral Writer Redux

You are now one of my heroes. I'm going to copy, paste, and save this to a word file so that if anyone ever says Merrill was the target, I can show your post to them.

Well, in the words of Levi Dryden. "My stomach's all a flutter. Thank you Warden."

Nameless


I also wonder what would happen if H., being very, very charismatic, would persuade Merrill in the Act 3 to abandon Eluvian and, say, work on improving lives of city elves? In that case Dalish clan would have a ticking time bomb in their midst, namely a possessed Keeper. How long would she be able to keep it under control?

Hmm. An interesting idea. One small flaw is that when Merrill and Hawke shows up, the demon is not in the statue anymore. Anything else the demon may have told them, any battle of wills that my have taken place is now a moot point. The Keeper was an abomination and the demon had freed itself.

[loranna238]

TheBlackBaron wrote...

loranna238 wrote...
*snip*

All I can say is, you seem to be taking Marethari's assertions about the mirror and the demon as fact. She could be right, but there's no evidence at all to suggest that what Marethari claims is true (neither is ther any to suggest she's wrong, of course). You're entitled to your opinions, but your entire view of Merrill and her suppossed narcissism hinges on the above. So this suppossed "truth that even the most stubborn of players should be able to see" is entirely subjective. 

A couple of things here - first, at this point it seems to me like the demon may have been stacking the deck, so to speak.  The explanation the Maretheri gave is the most plausible, because it gives the demon not one, but two chances to escape.  The first chance would be the mirror.  The second would be the keeper trying to protect Merrill from herself because she was listening to it and following it blindly, for it was offering her what she most wanted.

So no, we don't know if it was true, but it seems likely to be true as the Keeper would not have done what she did unless it was to protect Merrill, and otherwise if she didn't the demon still had the chance to convince Merrill to complete the mirror.

Second, I believe my assumption is based more on the entire pattern of events and its actual outcome if you follow that path.  Like I said before, it's up to you to determine what the outcome is.

My final conclusion (for now) is this:  Telling Merrill to keep at the mirror is just wrong, if you are trying to play a good character.  It's akin to telling any other protagonist to do so in the history of fantasy literature that is tempted by something that is horribly dark but promises to "save their people" if they give in to it.   Use your own illustrations, there are plenty of them. There comes a point in every protagonist, like the Wheel of Time, where the characters are offered the chance to do good by giving in to the evil, usually by the antagonist themselves.  The thing is that the price for doing that is so horribly shocking it far outweighs anything that is promised, and would end up destroying the person themselves in the end.

That is why to me it felt so creepy telling her yes. It's like saying to tell her yes to the one ring just so you can bed her, or at the very least she will be your "friend".  Please keep in mind I am referring only to the path where you say yes to her unconditionally.  There is supposedly another path where you choose rivalry and also romance.  I will be honest I misunderstood rivalry to begin with, and will try to choose this (even though I didn't romance her the first time) on the second play through.  It would feel less like telling a child to eat all the gum drops up to the wicked witch's door and that it's a good idea to do so.

You also seem to be ignoring the role that the Dalish's pride, stubborness, and outright xenophobia played in their deaths. None of the bad things happening to the clan, such as the corruption of the Varterral, are Merrill's fault. Their own ignorance and Marethari's words is what leads them to blame her. 

Sorry, but to me the Dalish had a reason to be irritated and angry, and scared.  Perhaps their agitation was misplaced and like any other mob they were looking for a culprit when the culprit - the demon - was dead.  This does not excuse Merrill however from her responsibility or the player for that matter in their responsibility for what happens if you choose this path. 

If you take responsibility for the matter, they back down.  This does not make Merrill happy, but they do see reason, rather than pointing out to them hey there was a demon, and reminding them that the demon would not have been freed but for Merrill's actions in the first place.

My opinion, again, which you seem to hate so much, is that if you follow this path you are not doing what is best for Merrill.  You are not acting like a true friend and you are in fact encouraging an obsession which leads to her own image of herself being corrupted, and a horrible disaster.

To me to stand and say that something wouldn't of happened if only someone had had more faith in you when they are trying to protect you and you've ignored all of the warning signs up until that point willfully, and that an entire tribe of people killed themselves (which isn't technically true Hawke kills them) rather than accept your help, is very narcissistic in the least.   And again, I'm not saying she was one to begin with, but I'm saying that this view of things is *wrong* at the end.

The fact is that without her help then the tribe would have been at least ALIVE. Maybe missing a bit of their history, but alive.  The history could have been found another way.  Was it worth the price? Really?  Is it worth to you, the player, to have Merrill so totally devoted to you that she sees your coddling her as her sunshine?

So, again my thought is that this path is wrong.  This is why it seemed creepy to me.  In the end if you keep promoting the demon's path you are doing it for *your* benefit, so she will like you, or romance you, rather than what is best for her, and in the end it is just plain WRONG.  She will do pretty much anything you want as long as you talk to her the right way.  Really, if you care about someone (and yes this is just a game I realize) do you encourage them to do a demon's bidding because they like the reward?

(sigh) This is just...aggravating...maybe I'm not explaining myself properly?    Either way, if you were incensed by my initial post I apologize, I was looking at the end result rather than the whole picture.  Merrill is neither crazy nor evil - to start.  I don't know that she is ever evil, but if you make the wrong choices though (for your own benefit)...it's just wrong to me.

Thank you biowares for giving me this headache. lol

Modifié par loranna238, 27 avril 2011 - 07:58 .

[Mary Kirby]

loranna238 wrote...

Thank you biowares for giving me this headache. lol

You're welcome! The debate going on in this thread makes me very happy, actually.

[hoorayforicecream]

Mary Kirby wrote...

You're welcome! The debate going on in this thread makes me very happy, actually.

You are a cruel, cruel woman.

[LadyJaneGrey]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Mary Kirby wrote...

You're welcome! The debate going on in this thread makes me very happy, actually.

You are a cruel, cruel woman.

Everyone has to get their kicks somehow.  :innocent:

[Mary Kirby]

LadyJaneGrey wrote...

Everyone has to get their kicks somehow.  :innocent:

It's true. It's no fun writing a character that's open to multiple interpretations if nobody interprets her in multiple ways. I get my joy where I can.

[LadyJaneGrey]

Mary Kirby wrote...

LadyJaneGrey wrote...

Everyone has to get their kicks somehow.  :innocent:

It's true. It's no fun writing a character that's open to multiple interpretations if nobody interprets her in multiple ways. I get my joy where I can.

Good plan.  And since I'm pretty tickled that a writer responded back to me, I'm going to leave the forums while I still have the warm and fuzzies.  

[loranna238]

It's true. It's no fun writing a character that's open to multiple interpretations if nobody interprets her in multiple ways. I get my joy where I can.

Woot!  LOL This is really cool...I'm now a fan.

[LobselVith8]

loranna238 wrote...

AgelessTimeless wrote...

Honestly I don't see how it is her fault. I blame the keeper for causing the whole series of events.

I think the keeper was trying to save her from herself and gave her ample opportunity to turn back from her chosen path, which would have destroyed her.  To that end, it is partially the Keeper's fault.  She let Merrill go because she loved her instead of just putting a stop to it like she should have.  The keeper loved her, and sacrificed everything for her.  What did this get her in return? Instead of saying, the path I took was wrong - Merrill was more into, she should have trusted *me,*  *believed in me*.  When the evidence of what she did was wrong laid on the ground before in a pool of chilling blood.

Keeper Maerethari made a decision based on what she thought would happen. The Keeper's specualtion on what would happen if Merrill restored the Eluvian doesn't necessarily make it true. What if it lead to a new age? What if the mysteries of the Eluvian allowed the elves to prosper and gave them the strength to forge a new kindgom from the knowledge of their ancestors? What if Merrill was right about her suspicions that the Eluvian could help the People reclaim what was lost in the fall of Arlathan?

One of the biggest complaints I've seen against Merrill is Marethari's argument against the Eluvian, but I don't think the Keeper's speculation that Merrill was wrong makes it factual; it's nothing more than Marethari's opinion about the issue. Marethari's actions lead to a demon turning her into an abomination, but it doesn't make Merrill wrong. Marethari acted on what she believed to be the truth, and so did Merrill.

The pursuit of knowledge that could dramatically improve the lives of elves in Thedas, especially the Dalish clans who have wandering without a home for centuries, is something Merrill found to be a worthwhile goal. Should Merrill have been content to do nothing for the rest of her life while the People continued to remain stagnant for a few more centuries? Merrill was proactive in wanting to implement change for her people, and accepting that such a risk could mean the ultimate price for her.

loranna238 wrote...

Yet, despite this it was Merrill who chose to continue even though the evidence kept mounting that everything was wrong.

There's no evidence that Merrill is wrong, there are opinions that Merrill is wrong.

loranna238 wrote...

This does not take away from the argument stating that Merrill is narcissistic.  Like I said, she turned away from the mirror, the mirror, to the one person who kept telling her that she was right, rather than wrong.  She should have smashed the damn thing.  Constructive criticism is not something that Narcissists can accept, and that's what I was trying to do with my character, but I suppose in order to reach that point you have to give her her supply.

You keep saying Merrill is narcissistic because you personally disagree with her, and I don't find it to be accurate. Merrill saw the Eluvian as her chance to reclaim the history and knowledge of her people, which has been lost since the Imperium destroyed the kingdom of Arlathan. Hawke may disagree with Merrill's opinion, but he has no way of understanding the plight of the elves from the perspective of a human who is ignorant of their culture and society in the same way that Merrill does. Merrill seeks to help her people, even if it means her death.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 27 avril 2011 - 09:17 .

[TheBlackBaron]

loranna238 wrote...

A couple of things here - first, at this point it seems to me like the demon may have been stacking the deck, so to speak.  The explanation the Maretheri gave is the most plausible, because it gives the demon not one, but two chances to escape.  The first chance would be the mirror.  The second would be the keeper trying to protect Merrill from herself because she was listening to it and following it blindly, for it was offering her what she most wanted.

So no, we don't know if it was true, but it seems likely to be true as the Keeper would not have done what she did unless it was to protect Merrill, and otherwise if she didn't the demon still had the chance to convince Merrill to complete the mirror.

That's circular logic. Something may be true, so the Keeper takes actions that make it become true, therefore it was true all along? It doesn't work like that. 

Given what we know about eluvians, such as that they have no connection to the Fade, it seems unlikely to me that Marethari was correct in her suspicions. Not to say that there couldn't be a way for the demon to use it, but with what we know about them there isn't. 

Frankly, the idea mentioned above that the demon's plan all along was to get one of them to allow themselves to be possessed - perferably Marethari, being a powerful mage and the leader of the clan - makes a whole lot more sense when combined with what is known about demons. It especially gells when one remembers that it's a Pride demon, and Marethari's pride and stubborn insistence that she was right is what leads to her allowing it to possess her. 

My final conclusion (for now) is this:  Telling Merrill to keep at the mirror is just wrong, if you are trying to play a good character.  It's akin to telling any other protagonist to do so in the history of fantasy literature that is tempted by something that is horribly dark but promises to "save their people" if they give in to it.   Use your own illustrations, there are plenty of them. There comes a point in every protagonist, like the Wheel of Time, where the characters are offered the chance to do good by giving in to the evil, usually by the antagonist themselves.  The thing is that the price for doing that is so horribly shocking it far outweighs anything that is promised, and would end up destroying the person themselves in the end.

This operates under the assumption that the mirror is inherently evil and that fixing it is an evil act. Not so. In the LotR movies (not the books, before anybody gets on me for this, I know it's different in the books) Boromir and Faramir are both tempted by the Ring, which is known to have a "mind" of its own and a corrupting influence. The mirror does no such thing; yes, it kills Tamlen and possibly Mahariel, but the Warden, Finn, and Arianne don't appear to suffer at all from interacting with it and using it for a scrying ritual, and Merrill's own shard is specifically stated to have been cleansed. 

You can keep repeating that it's "just wrong", but that doesn't make it true. 

Sorry, but to me the Dalish had a reason to be irritated and angry, and scared.  Perhaps their agitation was misplaced and like any other mob they were looking for a culprit when the culprit - the demon - was dead.  This does not excuse Merrill however from her responsibility or the player for that matter in their responsibility for what happens if you choose this path.

And what reason is that, exactly? Their Keeper constantly telling them that one of their own was crazy and a monster and would kill them all, the very same person that she kept trying to get to come back to the clan? Well, it's certainly a reason, but it's a pretty bad one. 

If you take responsibility for the matter, they back down.  This does not make Merrill happy, but they do see reason, rather than pointing out to them hey there was a demon, and reminding them that the demon would not have been freed but for Merrill's actions in the first place.

The paraphrase for that option is very off, actually - Hawke's not taking any responsibility at all, just telling them that yeah, Merrill is a monster and he'll protect them all from her. They're not "seeing reason" when you tell them this, they're only listening because you're telling them exactly what they want to hear. Funnily enough, this is exactly what you say is "just wrong" in regards to Merrill. 

And please, affix blame where blame is due. There is but one person responsible for freeing the demon from where it was bound and trapped by allowing it to possess them, and that is Marethari. 

My opinion, again, which you seem to hate so much, is that if you follow this path you are not doing what is best for Merrill.  You are not acting like a true friend and you are in fact encouraging an obsession which leads to her own image of herself being corrupted, and a horrible disaster.

To me to stand and say that something wouldn't of happened if only someone had had more faith in you when they are trying to protect you and you've ignored all of the warning signs up until that point willfully, and that an entire tribe of people killed themselves (which isn't technically true Hawke kills them) rather than accept your help, is very narcissistic in the least.   And again, I'm not saying she was one to begin with, but I'm saying that this view of things is *wrong* at the end.

The fact is that without her help then the tribe would have been at least ALIVE. Maybe missing a bit of their history, but alive.  The history could have been found another way.  Was it worth the price? Really?  Is it worth to you, the player, to have Merrill so totally devoted to you that she sees your coddling her as her sunshine?

So, again my thought is that this path is wrong.  This is why it seemed creepy to me.  In the end if you keep promoting the demon's path you are doing it for *your* benefit, so she will like you, or romance you, rather than what is best for her, and in the end it is just plain WRONG.  She will do pretty much anything you want as long as you talk to her the right way.  Really, if you care about someone (and yes this is just a game I realize) do you encourage them to do a demon's bidding because they like the reward?

I don't think this is your intention, but frankly it's a little insulting the way you keep insinuating the only reason somebody would have to encourage Merrill is because they want to sleep with her. 

I was following that path long before I ever decided I was going to romance her (sometime after Mirror Image in Act II, if you're curious). I happen to think that restoring the eluvian is a worthwhile venture, both from a purely scientific and historical persepctive and from a metagaming perspective - I was hoping that it might lead to more information about what's going on with Morrigan and possibly the Warden as well. If nobody ever attempted to discover something new because it might be dangerous, we'd still be huddled in caves in Africa without even a fire. Because, you know, fire is dangerous, it could kill somebody.

So, sorry, I am not promoting doing a demon's bidding for my own benefit, not the least of which because there's still no evidence that the demon had any plan involving using the mirror. I get that you take this as true and thus that it's just plain WRONG. Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

Modifié par TheBlackBaron, 27 avril 2011 - 09:47 .

[TEWR]

Mary Kirby wrote...

loranna238 wrote...

Thank you biowares for giving me this headache. lol

You're welcome! The debate going on in this thread makes me very happy, actually.

Wait.... so you've been reading this thread and our various back-and-forths this whole entire time without us knowing? You're evil!*

=YOU


*obviously I kid, though you could actually be evil.

[Shacary]

I dont think Merrill is evil either, Liek soemone noted earlier post, she seems like niave and teen-like in thinking she KNOWS what all the outcomes could be, wihtout really thinking it all thru.
I gave her the tool for the mirror on two PT's , becuz I thought she was adult enough to learn if it was a mistake [ and it turned out horrifically for her clan and her mentor..] but even if Hawke romanced her or no, I felt she needed to take those steps to grow...
once I kept the tool from her, but I have to confess altho It might have been considered the prudent thing to do, I felt like the bully. Im not sure Hawke ever learned enough about the possible outcomes withouta previous PT to really give that issue real regards... Mb i missed soething, Idk.

[randomcheeses]

Evil, no.

Naive and very,very foolish to the point of being wilfully idiotic? Yes.

[LobselVith8]

loranna238 wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

Ah, I don't think blood magic or blood mages are inherently evil and I don't think Merrill is evil or everything that happened was part of an evil plan she cooked up in her Alienage home.

I think Merrill does have a nice, warm caring, heart and does sincerely want to do something to help her people and part of that is so they will finally accept her. It seems to me she has had issues with interpersonal relationships even amongst the Dalish and, as a result, has a pretty poor self-image in regards to her relationships with other people. She even says she would make a terrible Keeper, and these issues come up in other places like during the romance or when she compares herself to Isabela in one of their banters.

However, she's good at magic and knows a lot of history and this is the one source of her self-love and pride. It's not surprising that when she finally finds an opportunity to restore an ancient elven artifact using her knowledge of magic/history she goes all out, gets "tunnel vision" and obsesses over it. I'm assuming that finding any ancient elven artifact is quite rare, so I'm sure Merrill feels that this is a once in a life time chance to do something for her people in the only way that she could help her people (in her mind).

But you see, what to me at first looked like a caring heart more turned into that she wanted to be a savior. 

Merrill wants to help her people, who are losing their magic and have been wandering without a home since the Chantry lead forces defeated the Dales in the Exalted March. You seem to persistently argue that she should do nothing instead of being proactive in helping her people reclaim what they've lost.

loranna238 wrote...

And her people did not want to be saved. 

You're addressing one clan and using it to make a general assumption about elves across the continent.

loranna238 wrote...

By setting herself apart from them and saying, "I will save you!" instead of working with them, by rejecting everything bad that happened and realizing that she should stop, it became more about her than about them.  She wanted them to love her, to be their savior. 

You mean she's basically the Warden from Origins, set apart from the rest of the people and working towards a goal to help them, whether they like it or not? Plenty of Fereldens didn't want the Warden's help because many of them thought the Wardens plotted against King Cailan, but that didn't stop the future Hero of Ferelden from saving the nation.

loranna238 wrote...

But her actions didn't seem to indicate that she really loved them in return.  She set herself apart from them; the more she pushed to do this humungous great thing, the more damage she caused because the keeper wouldn't stop her because she loved her, but she didn't see this.  She only saw her need to make them love her.  She cried over them, but in the end decided it was their own fault, instead of accepting any blame.

I think her willingness to risk her life and die for the slim chance to gain invaluable knowledge about her ancestors demonstrates that she did love her people.

And since Marethari is a grown woman, I don't see any reason to blame Merrill for the actions a reasonable adult makes of their own accord.

loranna238 wrote...

A good example of if she had excepted blame, excepted responsibility would be to have smashed the damn mirror.

Unless she thought the Eluvian could still help her people if it was fully restored, as opposed to sitting on her butt and doing nothing about the decline of her people.

loranna238 wrote...

Again, she said that they would rather destroy themselves than accept her help.  Why, oh why couldn't she have just lived with them and been part of their family?  Why did she have to be right, no matter what?

Why didn't she live with the same clan members who had no problem trying to murder her in cold blood for an act she wasn't responsible for? For the very people who shunned her because she was trying to restore the past, which is the very premise for the Dalish clans?

loranna238 wrote...

Am I the only one that sees this?   The fact that it was a mirror that she was obsessing over itself is so obvious it's not funny!

You mean she was driven to restore a part of the legacy of Arlathan culture, which could have benefitted her people with the discoveries it could have unravelled.

[loranna238]

randomcheeses wrote...

Evil, no.

Naive and very,very foolish to the point of being wilfully idiotic? Yes.

And the player has the option to encourage her...