[quote]TheBlackBaron wrote...
[quote]loranna238 wrote...
A couple of things here - first, at this point it seems to me like the demon may have been stacking the deck, so to speak. The explanation the Maretheri gave is the most plausible, because it gives the demon not one, but two chances to escape. The first chance would be the mirror. The second would be the keeper trying to protect Merrill from herself because she was listening to it and following it blindly, for it was offering her what she most wanted.
So no, we don't know if it was true, but it seems likely to be true as the Keeper would not have done what she did unless it was to protect Merrill, and otherwise if she didn't the demon still had the chance to convince Merrill to complete the mirror.[/quote]
That's circular logic. Something may be true, so the Keeper takes actions that make it become true, therefore it was true all along? It doesn't work like that.
Given what we know about eluvians, such as that they have
no connection to the Fade, it seems unlikely to me that Marethari was correct in her suspicions. Not to say that there couldn't be a way for the demon to use it, but with what we know about them there isn't.
Frankly, the idea mentioned above that the demon's plan all along was to get one of them to allow themselves to be possessed - perferably Marethari, being a powerful mage and the leader of the clan - makes a whole lot more sense when combined with what is known about demons. It especially gells when one remembers that it's a Pride demon, and Marethari's pride and stubborn insistence that she was right is what leads to her allowing it to possess her. [/quote]
Ok, that makes sense to me, though I still think it could have possibly used the mirror. It did kill Tamlen, after all. Something killed him. I know this is supposition, but maybe the idea was to either possess Merrill or the Keeper, and once it was in the Keeper's body it took over and had to taunt Merrill a bit more? Or, the Keeper was telling the truth because she had bonded with the demon? It is true we do not know, but it seemed like there were two plans - I'm still focusing on the demon being the one who started this whole thing.
[quote]
This operates under the assumption that the mirror is inherently evil and that fixing it is an evil act. [/quote]
Fact: It had killed someone. Fact: It was needing to be cleansed. I don't remember if the Keeper refused to cleanse it or if she couldn't cleanse and didn't know how. However, fact: Merrill listened to a demon rather than her Keeper to cleanse the mirror, it was that important to her. She was even warned by Flemeth abou ther path. To me, this act let the demon in, and while others have mentioned that she had proof that she could defeat it (twice before), it is a DEMON, and would want something in return. Most likely it's freedom.
[quote]Not so. In the LotR movies (not the books, before anybody gets on me for this, I know it's different in the books) Boromir and Faramir are both tempted by the Ring, which is known to have a "mind" of its own and a corrupting influence.[/quote]
Hmm. Well, it's not the mirror itself, it's the act of restoring the mirror and what it is entailing and how she has to repeatedly deal with a demon in order to get what she wants. It's the temptation to do something dark to get something good that is the problem, such as bow to a forsaken or give up your right of kinship. This is the same ideal to me.
[quote]and Merrill's own shard is specifically stated to have been cleansed. [/quote]
We aren't sure it really was cleansed.
[quote]You can keep repeating that it's "just wrong", but that doesn't make it true. [/quote]
Demons are not good.
In fact, I'd say if I lookd up their alignment I would say they definitely aren't good.
Encouraging a character in something that requires them to (a) make a deal with a demon (
use blood magic to cleanse something © the entire tribe seems to be uneasy about and doesn't want to happen (d) continue along a path when bad things keep happening to me is wrong.
[quote]
And what reason is that, exactly? Their Keeper constantly telling them that one of their own was crazy and a monster and would kill them all, the very same person that she kept trying to get to come back to the clan? Well, it's certainly a reason, but it's a pretty bad one. [/quote]
I don't recall the keeper ever telling anyone that she was crazy or evil or a monster, but warning her repeatedly that this was not a good choice to make. Her behavior seemed to indicate to me that she allowing Merrill to make her own choices, probably on the hope that the more it continued she would figure out this was a bad idea. Merrill actually envoked a right with her to get the keeper to give her the tool she thought she needed to complete the mirror, thus binding her to be honor bound to give it to Merrill if the requested task was completed.
The tribe seemed to make up it's own mind about Merrill. They were growing increasingly unsettled as time went on, and the most likely reason was that the demon was either working on them (I think the fade touches dreams), or because her use of blood magic had planted this in their minds and it was growing because she was continually absent and only returned every now and then to demand things to help her restore something that had killed someone.
Maybe this is just what I saw when I played it the way I did though...I didn't have Merrill in my party a lot of times, only when I was doing her quests. I'm willing to concede that.
[quote]
The paraphrase for that option is very off, actually - Hawke's not taking any responsibility at all, just telling them that yeah, Merrill is a monster and he'll protect them all from her. They're not "seeing reason" when you tell them this, they're only listening because you're telling them exactly what they want to hear. Funnily enough, this is exactly what you say is "just wrong" in regards to Merrill. [/quote]
I maintain it is wrong to encourage her to continue on this path until it gets to the point where you have to do something like this to prevent bloodshed; the tribe's view seems to be that there would be no demon able to manipulate things if Merrill hadn't done what she did to begin wth.
[quote]And please, affix blame where blame is due. There is but one person responsible for freeing the demon from where it was
bound and trapped by allowing it to possess them, and that is Marethari. [/quote]
Yes, this is true. The reasons she did it though were sort of noble. I mean, kinda. Sacrifice yourself, you being the leader, to save Merrill? But I mean if you were to speculate further Merrill kept going back to the demon...even if the mirror wasn't the way to let the demon out of the bag, she would keep coming back to it and maybe, just maybe it would talk her around to letting it possess her. Would the player encourage her in that?
It just seems like the whole thing was the demon trying to get out by any means necessary. As it was a pride demon it would naturally work on pride and insecurities, and be highly manipulative.
[quote]
I don't think this is your intention, but frankly it's a little insulting the way you keep insinuating the only reason somebody would have to encourage Merrill is because they want to sleep with her. [/quote]
Well, I was going on the anti-rivaly angle too where you want to keep her as a friend to the end of the game. I wasn't trying to be insulting.
I personally didn't pursue the romance angle. (and no I have nothing against that and I play exclusively female characters) I actually stayed with it for a long time after the initial "oh my god did she just use blood magic?" on the off chance that she was some kind of really stubborn, whacky genius that couldn't see the writing on the wall, and may be right when everyone else is wrong. But it just kept getting worse and worse, and the feeling continued that I was not doing the right thing by encouraging her and that this was not going to end well.
I know I've mentioned wrong a few times, and you don't like that, but romancing her while encouraging her to keep going on this mission that was started in the worst way, it just seems to me to be escalating a rather bad situation and being done for selfish reasons. Which, I could be wrong on.
But, reading on with this:
[quote]I was following that path long before I ever decided I was going to romance her (sometime after Mirror Image in Act II, if you're curious). I happen to think that restoring the eluvian is a worthwhile venture, both from a purely scientific and historical persepctive and from a metagaming perspective - I was hoping that it might lead to more information about what's going on with Morrigan and possibly the Warden as well. If nobody ever attempted to discover something new because it might be dangerous, we'd still be huddled in caves in Africa without even a fire. Because, you know, fire is dangerous, it could kill somebody.
So, sorry, I am not promoting doing a demon's bidding for my own benefit, not the least of which because
there's still no evidence that the demon had any plan involving using the mirror. I get that you take this as true and thus that it's just plain WRONG. Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
[/quote]
I'm a girl.
My apologies for grouping you and anyone else into this category. I am deeply sorry I insulted you.
Like I said I didn't romance her myself, but was trying to get her to 100% friendship or just make it so that she was a misunderstood genius, but all of the conversation pieces felt like I was just trying to get her to like me because personally, I knew better, especially after the cave. I realize of course that there are other ways of looking it.
The only problem I have now is that while it may be possible to believe Merrill to be right in her path, it just seems like the escalating situation seemed to yell, stop, stop. Merrill herself sees the signs yet she persists.
The argument that we didn't know the demon had any plan involving the mirror can actually be disputed by the fact that the demon was helping her cleanse the mirror. This showed it had a plan at least *involving* the mirror. Why would a demon do it otherwise? Pure benevolence?
Merrill embraced blood magic, and willingly dealt with this demon. She reveals this in several conversations. She even tells Anders that she knows all spirits are dangerous, and yet she does this anyway.
And yes, while this is true about progress of humanity, that we need to be bold and sometimes things come out to be superstitions, Merrill admits she knows the dangers ahead of time and they are not superstitions. She seems to question herself and her path at points, however, and encouraging her to continue with the path and belief in her own abilty to outmaneuvre a demon is wrong (yep, I used that word again, burn me!), when evidence increasingly mounts to the contrary.
I understand what everyone is saying, I can even understand the angles most of you are coming from, but still feel conviction that encouraging her is the wrong thing to do.
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