407 réponses à ce sujet

[Maria Caliban]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Right. Merrill wants to reconnect with the past. She does this in the most dangerous way possible.

Demons have been around for centuries, and they would be the ones in possession of knowledge about the past. You know of a better way than hoping that she stumble across some deus ex machina or a macguffin to answer all of her prayers?

The Varatraal? Again, an immortal, elemental guardian seems pretty useful. Especially if you're a people who are frequently harassed and attacked by human authorities.

Of course, Merrill doesn't need a McGuffin to connect to her past. Humans in the real world are able to discover things about ancient humans without magic. She needs a McGuffin to 'save her people,' something the eluvian wouldn't do even if she did get it fixed.

Merrill sought to build an Eluvian that she believed would hold answers about many things that her people have been unable to discover for a milennia.

When does Merrill say this? What secrets does she suggest it might hold?

At no point does she say it's the key to many secrets. She just says she's going to save her people with it and that it's used for communication.

Merrill is creating an Eluvian. David Gaider addressed this - she was creating one using lore and information she extrapolated from the shard she brought from Ferelden.

And? We know she's creating an eluvian. This entire conversation is about her creating the eluvian. That she's making one isn't in doubt.

You're assuming Merrill didn't investigate the area, but we know from the short story that Merrill and Marethari were looking around Sundermount.

Yes, I am assuming just that because she never talks about doing so. Things the game doesn't tell us about are the realm of fan fiction.

[hoorayforicecream]

LobselVith8 wrote...

How would long lost knowledge about the kingdom of Arlathan help the Dalish? You mean besides answering a myraid of questions that the People have had for centuries and clearing up possible misconceptions, and giving the elves the possibility of reclaiming knowledge that could be vital to building a new kingdom and defending their people against the Chantry and the templars?

But there's no information about what that knowledge was. It might help. It might be valuable information. Or it might be info about why the dalish stopped wearing socks. There's a ton of information on the internet right now, and there's some very valuable stuff. But that doesn't mean that you can expect you'll learn nuclear reactor technology on a gamble. It means you're much more likely to get photos of Justin Bieber in a hoodie.

Also, I'm addressing the possibility of why the specifics of the Eluvian aren't referenced by either of the two people who seem to be familiar with them - Morrigan and Merrill. Neither of them give specifics about the ancient elven devices, and I doubt Morrigan was ignorant of them. You're welcome to think Merrill was unfamiliar with them, but she clearly believed the Eluvian held answers for the elves, and I think it's better to explore if this is accurate as opposed to doing nothing and missing out on the plethora of information that they could hold.

Like I told that other guy earlier... believing in something doesn't make it true, even if you believe really really hard.

LobselVith8 wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Would you bet your life on a lottery ticket? 

The protagonist of Origins was, apparently.

I know somebody whose family won the lottery. That doesn't make me any more eager to spend my money on tickets, especially if the ticket price is my life.

[Maria Caliban]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Or there could have been nothing at all.

We find something every time we visit the mountain.

We know it was an elven stronghold where magical artifacts were created, the eldest elves were put to rest, and armies clashed. Are you really going to suggest there's nothing of interest to be found there for someone who's interested in reconnecting to the elven past?

That's like suggesting a human archeologist couldn't find anything in the ruins of Troy.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 28 avril 2011 - 04:30 .

[hoorayforicecream]

Maria Caliban wrote...

We find something every time we visit the mountain.

We know it was an elven stronghold where magical artifacts were created, the eldest elves were put to rest, and armies clashed. Are you really going to suggest there's nothing of interest to be found there for someone who's interested in reconnecting to the elven past?

That's like suggesting a human archeologist couldn't find anything in the ruins of Troy.

Didn't we also find the Nexus Golem down one of those holes?

[MandatoryDenial1]

 To the original question in the title.  I think with Merril the saying, "Ignorance is often bliss, but more often fatal" applies.

[TEWR]

I'm gone for a little bit typing some more rants on blood magic (which I'm not done) and I've got a few responses to deal with. Crap...


To Maria, I again say it's hard to figure out how to create a Varterral when they're trying to KILL you and your clan.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 28 avril 2011 - 04:32 .

[hoorayforicecream]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

To Maria, I again say it's hard to figure out how to create a Varterral when they're trying to KILL.

Pay attention and observe from a distance? Just because something is dangerous doesn't mean you can't learn from it.

[TEWR]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

To Maria, I again say it's hard to figure out how to create a Varterral when they're trying to KILL.

Pay attention and observe from a distance? Just because something is dangerous doesn't mean you can't learn from it.

sure, then you snap a twig and it sees you and you're royally screwed.

Something's pissed off the Varterrals. So much so that they'll attack the very elves they are supposed to protect. There isn't much of an opportunity to learn anything from them. What could you learn? Eating habits? Mating times?

Also, the Eluvians can at the very least be used for communication. That would definitely be useful for the elves. To communicate over long distances means that they wouldn't have to wait every ten years to update the other clans.

[LobselVith8]

Maria Caliban wrote...

The Varatraal? Again, an immortal, elemental guardian seems pretty useful. Especially if you're a people who are frequently harassed and attacked by human authorities.

And how would they unlock the secret of commanding the Varatraal? Besides exploring a path that could lead to answers about the ancient elves (like Merrill is), of course.

Maria Caliban wrote...

Of course, Merrill doesn't need a McGuffin to connect to her past. Humans in the real world are able to discover things about ancient humans without magic. She needs a McGuffin to 'save her people,' something the eluvian wouldn't do even if she did get it fixed.

You're providing your speculation on the matter as fact. We don't know whether the Eluvian would have provided the answers that Merrill was looking for, but it was the best of limited options. Unless she was going to stumble onto the answer (and her people have been exploring Thedas as wanders for centuries) then the Eluvian was a good possibility to address the questions they had about their past.

Maria Caliban wrote...

When does Merrill say this? What secrets does she suggest it might hold?

At no point does she say it's the key to many secrets. She just says she's going to save her people with it and that it's used for communication.

The Eluvian itself is a part of Arlathan's history. It leads to a place beyond "this world, and beyond the Fade." The existance of a place where the ancient elves would have gone to would answer many questions the Dalish have about them.

Maria Caliban wrote...

And? We know she's creating an eluvian. This entire conversation is about her creating the eluvian. That she's making one isn't in doubt.

And the fact that she's using lore to do so suggests that she has more information about the Eluvian than Hawke does.

Maria Caliban wrote...

Yes, I am assuming just that because she never talks about doing so. Things the game doesn't tell us about are the realm of fan fiction.

So you're arguing against her current course of action because of things she may have already done, but you don't know because it's not specifically addressed?

[LobselVith8]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

But there's no information about what that knowledge was. It might help. It might be valuable information. Or it might be info about why the dalish stopped wearing socks. There's a ton of information on the internet right now, and there's some very valuable stuff. But that doesn't mean that you can expect you'll learn nuclear reactor technology on a gamble. It means you're much more likely to get photos of Justin Bieber in a hoodie.

In other words, it's a risk, which Merrill knows because she openly addresses that it could mean her life - if she loses a battle of wills to the demon Audacity, and it's a gamble that could pay off if the Eluvian is as important as Morrigan indicated it is to the Warden.

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Like I told that other guy earlier... believing in something doesn't make it true, even if you believe really really hard.

Yet it's our convictions that can lead us on the right path. It's the gamble that the Warden took to the Frostback Mountains that lead to the Urn of Sacred Ashes. Merrill's venture is no different - maybe it'll accomplish what she thinks it will, or maybe it won't, but it's certainly better than maintaining the status quo and doing nothing of consequence.

hoorayforicecream wrote...

I know somebody whose family won the lottery. That doesn't make me any more eager to spend my money on tickets, especially if the ticket price is my life.

And no one else was willing to take the risks that Merrill was, because she was the only who had the conviction to go her own way and attempt to rebuild a two thousand year old elven technology from the kingdom of Arlathan. I respect that Merrill was proactive in trying to make a positive change for her people while Hawke was reactive to the point of not even investigating the evidence of an accomplice in his mother's murder.

[hoorayforicecream]

LobselVith8 wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

But there's no information about what that knowledge was. It might help. It might be valuable information. Or it might be info about why the dalish stopped wearing socks. There's a ton of information on the internet right now, and there's some very valuable stuff. But that doesn't mean that you can expect you'll learn nuclear reactor technology on a gamble. It means you're much more likely to get photos of Justin Bieber in a hoodie.

In other words, it's a risk, which Merrill knows because she openly addresses that it could mean her life - if she loses a battle of wills to the demon Audacity, and it's a gamble that could pay off if the Eluvian is as important as Morrigan indicated it is to the Warden.

I'm not saying it's not a risk. But there's a big difference between something with a high chance of success (can I roll higher than a 1 on a six-sided die?) and something with a much lower chance of success (can I roll a six on a six-sided die?). It's called risk assessment. It's how you determine whether a risk is worth taking.

If you have an opportunity to gamble, and you have an 80% chance to win triple your initial investment, then it is a worthwhile risk.

If you have an opportunity to gamble, and you have an unknown chance to win an unknown amount of money, and you are betting your life... I don't know about you, but I wouldn't consider that a worthwhile risk. Why? There are too many unknowns to make a reasonably accurate assessment.

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Like I told that other guy earlier... believing in something doesn't make it true, even if you believe really really hard.

Yet it's our convictions that can lead us on the right path. It's the gamble that the Warden took to the Frostback Mountains that lead to the Urn of Sacred Ashes. Merrill's venture is no different - maybe it'll accomplish what she thinks it will, or maybe it won't, but it's certainly better than maintaining the status quo and doing nothing of consequence.

Then you can continue to hope beyond hope. Maybe you're just hopelessly romantic. I am a pragmatist. There are things she could have done in those six years to care for the elves (like being their First, teaching the younger ones their ways, etc.) that she didn't because she was spending all her time on the eluvian. Maybe you don't see that time spent as being worthwhile. I'm ok with that.

hoorayforicecream wrote...

I know somebody whose family won the lottery. That doesn't make me any more eager to spend my money on tickets, especially if the ticket price is my life.

And no one else was willing to take the risks that Merrill was, because she was the only who had the conviction to go her own way and attempt to rebuild a two thousand year old elven technology from the kingdom of Arlathan. I respect that Merrill was proactive in trying to make a positive change for her people while Hawke was reactive to the point of not even investigating the evidence of an accomplice in his mother's murder.

Noone else was willing to take those risks because noone else thought that it was a worthwhile trade.

You might be willing to bet your life on a lottery ticket, but I'd rather just invest that money in some blue chips.

Modifié par hoorayforicecream, 28 avril 2011 - 05:06 .

[TEWR]

well Merrill gets along with the Alienage elves at least. Well, some. Take her on the quest to find Huon and she is friendly with Huon's wife.

Yet another reason I want to save her. She and Merrill are friends! Yet I'm just standing there going "Oh he's gonna kill her with that knife and some blood magic.... oh cool.... oh **** he's coming after me now. Better suit up!"

But that's neither here nor there (is it "nor" or "or"?)

[cihimi]

Merril is actually useless. So she forcibly makes so much fuss about this stupid cause of hers to "recover a portion of the past", and it's really important...but only in her stupid imagination. In her stupidity and need to be important, she deludes herself that demons are bunny rabbits.

[Tigerking]

cihimi wrote...

Merril is actually useless. So she forcibly makes so much fuss about this stupid cause of hers to "recover a portion of the past", and it's really important...but only in her stupid imagination. In her stupidity and need to be important, she deludes herself that demons are bunny rabbits.

Wow, "stupid" is your word of the day huh? You barely sound like you even listened to what she had to say.
She asks Hawke to kill her if she gets possessed. She knows demons are dangerous, and believes she can deal with them. People have done that in the past, you know. 
 She was trained her whole life to recover and venerate remnants of the elven culture, and you attribute that to a "need to be important"? She genuinely wants to help the Dalish. That's all she was ever taught how to do.
I don't mean to be offensive, but the way you describe everything you don't agree with as stupid (you use the word 3 times in 2 sentences) makes you sound pretty childish...

Modifié par Tigerking, 28 avril 2011 - 05:27 .

[hoorayforicecream]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

But that's neither here nor there (is it "nor" or "or"?)

Neither goes with Nor.

Either goes with Or.

[TEWR]

cihimi I suggest you read this entire thread and then give your opinion. Calling Merrill stupid because you don't agree with her is hardly a post that contributes anything...

scratch that, it isn't even a post that contributes anything to this topic.

[Maria Caliban]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

To Maria, I again say it's hard to figure out how to create a Varterral when they're trying to KILL you and your clan.

It's hard to create a magical mirror from a small, corrupted shard as well.

I consider Merrill a very smart person. In fact, I suspect that she has the highest IQ in the group. She's like a math savant who forgets to put her pants on before leaving the house.

I don't doubt she could do it if she put her mind to it. Just like I assumed in Act 1 that she'd be able to rebuild her mirror.

The reason she fixates on the mirror isn't because the mirror is the best thing to fulfill her goals or the easiest task to complete. It's because she doesn't want her friend's death to be worthless, it's because she sees the Keeper's rejection of the mirror as an act of cowardice, and it's because she leaves her clan for it.

These are all emotional reasons. The eluvian is a symbol to her and a powerful one.

The eluvian itself? It seems all sorts of worthless.

[TEWR]

Somehow, I can see Merrill leaving the house and forgetting some of her clothes...

and you seemed to ignore how I said that the Eluvain can be used for communication over long distances. That could help the clans too you know. Especially when there's another working Eluvian somewhere else and Ariane knows where it is (which sadly, Merrill does not know about)

[Maria Caliban]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Somehow, I can see Merrill leaving the house and forgetting some of her clothes...

and you seemed to ignore how I said that the Eluvain can be used for communication over long distances. That could help the clans too you know. Especially when there's another working Eluvian somewhere else and Ariane knows where it is (which sadly, Merrill does not know about)

Right. Again, Merrill doesn't know if there's another working one.

Even if she did know about it, how does the existence of two communication devices help independent, nomadic clans? Ironically, the dalish are the group least likely to benefit from two functional eluvian.

Informational infrastructure is a vital part of civilization but it's benefit comes when you have centers of learning separated by significant distances, or you need to mobilize armies, trade, or manufacturing. The Eluvian would be a massive help to a large, expansive empire like Orlais, or the pre-Andreste Tevinter Imperium, or the continent spanning Arlathan. As a gift to the Dalish, it sucks.

They're not even mobile. Merrill talks about how she'd have to work to push one over. Does she imagine the Dalish lugging them hundred of miles simply so they can chat with one another?

I adore Merrill. I don't think she's stupid. I think she's picked the wrong cause and after losing so much to that cause, she doesn't want to admit it was wrong.

[Augustei]

Instead of trying to fix a mirror to help bring back the elven glory days, why doesn't she seek out a way to unify her people and conquer some human kingdoms... Start with Rivain since chantry might show disintrest. Go to Tevinter from there than the free marches. twould be sweet =D

Dont **** with Ferelden though, or my Warden will kill them dispite the whole Warden neutrality thing.. He doesn't care, you attack his homeland he will make sure you regret it =D

[Joy Divison]

Are people actually suggesting that reconstructing a varterral is somehow easier, more practical, and less dangerous than a mirror?

I'm going to have to disagree with that premise.

I also don't think its a valid criticism to say Merrill would have been more productive searching for "other artifacts" when there are no such artifacts in the game. You have to give the writers some leeway here, the eluvian represents the most promising artifact and that is why Merrill is reconstructing it.

Modifié par Joy Divison, 28 avril 2011 - 01:58 .

[TEWR]

The Dalish lug around giant statues made from stone of their pantheon. Why can't they take an Eluvian too? Especially since you could just load it in the Aravel and leave it there when you settle in a new spot temporarily. You need to talk to someone, you go inside the Aravel.

Plus, if Merrill succeeds in making a working Eluvian (which I believe she would've), they at least have the knowledge of how to make one.


EDIT: it could also help to inform other clans of new lore and artifacts that have been recovered, instead of waiting every 10 years. Of course the gatherings would still happen. And who's to say Ariane didn't inform her clan of the presence and location of a working Eluvian and they ventured there to take it?

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 28 avril 2011 - 06:17 .

[LadyBri]

Interjecting on the subject of the varterral...

Yes, interesting and more useful alternative to help the Dalish. They are protectors, except for the one that goes wild on Sundermount.

Merrill seems all confused about why this ancient guardian suddenly goes wild and kills the hunters. They should have been able to explore the caves for relics with no troubles, but "something" has upset the varterral.

Could it possibly be Merrill's growing relationship with this demon, also located on the mountain, that has turned protector into predator?

I think Merrill is adorable, but her hunt to repair the eluvian is a train wreck. And I also think that besides creating a situation where Marethari feels compelled to sacrifice her life to protect her, Merrill's chats with the demon allows its power to grow which causes the Vareterral attack.

[TEWR]

the one in Witch Hunt was pissed too, so I doubt it has to do with Merrill's path

[Priisus]

LobselVith8 wrote...

I think if Varric and this thread have taught us anything, it's that dwarves like Merrill.

LOL... Well that's an interesting way to put it...

*cough* ok well back to topic. So for people defending her to death, lemme just ask one very simple question: do you think Merrill is without flaws? I agree with a lot of points on what you had to say about her but the way you put it seems that she is... so spotless... and blameless... (I don't have anything against your views... I'm just curious in that aspect...)

First of all, blood magic is just another form of magic and not necessarily evil. *True*, if people remember Jowan, at first the reason he was dabbling in blood magic was just trying to avoid being turned into a tranquil and defending Lily, the woman he loves (damn circle mages and they are not-allowed-to-love rule). Then bam, he went on and do some nasty stuff to Arl Eamon. Desperation? Sure, as he is essentially branded a Maleficar and thinking Loghain may bail him out (he is after all one of the most respected man in Fereldan). All Jowan wants is to survive and he did not expect all the nasty undead that infested Redcliffe due to his actions. He in fact regreted that decision and wished to make ammends. And then we look at the "evil" blood mages... The Baroness from Awakening? Quentin *shudders*. I think it is not the blood magic itself that is evil but what it is being used for. The Baroness trying to keep her youthful appearance through sacrificing the young girls of Blackmarsh and Quentin going all Frankestein... Those are obviously deeds done by crazy people and not by blood magic or magic in any form... and as Hawke puts it (with Quentin) "he can as easily murders her with a knife".

So back to Merrill and blood magic. What is her intention to use the blood magic? To possibly restore the working of an old artifact that may explain the long lost history of the elves. A noble goal? Of course, I support her in that.  Ok I can't remember where I read about it but blood magic is so widely condemned in Thedas that it's so hard to learn it because nobody teaches you. So one of the most common way is to look at a demon in the eye and accept its offer to learn blood magic which is true in Merrill's case (and in Origins). Did I agree with Merrill on this? Absolutely not. And I'm with Keeper Marethari on this one... you don't know what the demon wants! It could possibly be using the Eluvian to travel to the Thedas or the Fade or some other realm or possess Merrill itself. In fact if not for Marethari, it is Merrill herself that got possessed (a possibility that she herself think may happen)! And why on earth would I (Hawke) allow that to happen, especially to my companion. Gosh I don't even wish for anybody to get possessed (even for somebody I don't like... like uhhh Petrice lol) .

Second point, I don't trust that particular Eluvian, so far it had been harmless yes and Merrill may or may not have cleansed it (we only have her word for it, which may be a fact or not). My thoughts? Origins players know what that mirror did... it killed Tamlen and/or Mahariel. It was corrupted by the Darkspawn, whether there is still any trace left... we don't know. Even the Keeper who is a much more experienced mage than Merrill doesn't know if there is any trace of corruption left. But one thing is for certain about the Keeper: IF the only viable way to restore the Eluvian is to deal with the demon (with who-knows-what intention), then the past should be left as it is. A lot of people had been dissing the Keeper about telling the whole clan that Merrill is a "monster" (she did not, it's  Pol who thinks so) for trying to fix the mirror "out of fear that she may bring back the corruption or worse". Keeper is just trying to err on the side of danger, as for the clan's reaction to it, then blame the individual clan member. Marethari is there to warn them (as her duty requires) not tell them to hate Merrill (indirectly yes but you can tell that the clan do love their First, just look at Ilen who tries to persuade her to come back).

So out of all my ramblings, I do not dispute the fact that Merrill is a very talented mage. Ok maybe adorable and kind too. But she is naive to think that she can deal with demon and can get what she wants (Eluvian restored) from it without any negative consequences from the part of the demon. One read at her backstory, and I can tell it is an evil demon (which again is another fact that she acknowledged herself "All spirits are dangerous. I understood that"). I mean... it's like trying to purposely step into a land mine. My dear Merrill, I do not want that to happen to you even if you want it yourself.

And through her conversation with the Pride demon at "Night Terrors", she was easily tempted by the offer of becoming the "Dalish Saviour" (interesting note: she is always the first one to fall to the Pride Demon, above Fenris and Varric). Her main intention may always be to find the long lost elven history but demons can't just tempt you if there is not a hint of a single manifestation of it... (a conversation with Sebastian and the Flora Harriman girl in that particular quest). So deep inside maybe she felt unknowingly (even a little hint) that she can be remembered as the Dalish saviour... (well this is very human nature imo). A little narcisstic... yes I can agree on that even though it (the pride) is not her intention in the first place. On a side note... wow I'm surprised to hear that she called Fenryiel "half-breed boy" (never knew that until this thread) and got mad at the Keeper for trying to help him (I thought it is a very immediate danger... he can either die or be an abomination... come on Merrill... priorities )

Also, I think the friendship/rivalry path is highly misunderstood; people think rivalry=being mean/I hate you when I think it means that Hawke is not supporting her decisions. My first playthrough, I gave her the Arulin'holm even though I know it was bad for her. (Ok for those who said Fenris and Anders are just being mean to her... Aveline who is generally nice to Merrill in fact gets +Friendship if you refuse to give her the Arulin'holm).... 2nd playthrough I got her on the rivalry path which I feel is better for her. She destroyed the Eluvian in the end, admitted herself as being a fool which I'm proud of her for doing that (her romance bug creeps me out though)... I'm on my 3rd playthrough now and I'm on the rivalry path with both Fenris and Anders (who are always on the friendship path in my 2 previous playthroughs). I seriously do not want to be mean to any of my companions but I have to "agree to disagree"... I don't support Fenris' "I hate all mages" attitude or Merrill's noble intention but self destructive path (everytime she slits her wrist, I cringe). I support Anders' cause (especially playing as my Amell mage who is a Libertarian at heart), I find the arguments on his manifesto compelling but I do not agree with his methods, especially merging with Justice... (Bethany said almost the same thing too when you first met him). But this is more about how the friendship/rivalry path can be improved and not really this post's topic

I don't dislike Merrill but I'm not fond of her... (I guess she is just not that high in comparison to the other DA2 companions in my books...). But she is definately not crazy (none of Hawke's companions are) or evil (the tragedy of the Keeper and/or clan is anything but an unfortunate incident). Marethari sacrificing herself... yes I find that a very noble thing to do... as Merrill was indeed not listening *to anybody* and that Marethari's love for her is her own undoing. As for the clan, yes it is their own fault to attack Hawke and co but I think their anger and sadness are understandable, I mean come on they just lost their "mother" (I really don't get how people just seem to hate on the whole clan and Marethari on this one) .And I agree with hoorayforicecream... Merrill is chasing after a lottery ticket, one that may indeed bring her and the whole Dalish a really great thing but it is riding a lot on chance, it is always and still a maybe... I'm sorry girl, and as Aveline puts it, Merrill is "one very talented girl but stupid" (ok I won't call her stupid... naive is the better word) - for chasing after things that maybe should be left buried.