407 réponses à ce sujet

[TEWR]

I've never once claimed Merrill is without flaws. But in this regard, where she's doing something noble? No flaws are present here.


however, your case has a few things I would like to point out.

1) Marethari's claim on what the Eluvian will be used for is based purely on speculation on her part. She has done no research into the Eluvian, and yet claims it is fact. Whereas Morrigan, who did extensive research on the Eluvian, discovered it leads to a place "Beyond Thedas and beyond the Fade". And frankly, I trust Morrigan over Marethari because she has more experience in the field of funny looking mirrors.

2) The Pride Demon did what the Sloth Demon's minions did to your companions in Broken Circle. While she wanted to restore lost culture to the elves, she didn't willingly make that choice to betray Hawke. She addresses this in her apology how the spirit was pulling at her heart, and no matter how much she didn't believe him, it was no use.

3) People say "Merrill's acting like she knows more than Marethari about the Eluvian". To that I say, yes she does know more because she's studied this thing, spent years around it, and done all sorts of things to restore it. Marethari hasn't. In fact, Merrill only goes to the spirit a total of 3 times: the first is with the Keeper, the second to learn blood magic, and the third when we go with her. I think she put more faith and trust in herself than she did the spirit.

I can't agree with your view, but I do respect it. It was well thought out and presented very nicely, if there were a few grammar mistakes here and there. But hey, I do that all the time. More than half of my edits end up being grammar fixes =P

[Priisus]

I really enjoy reading a lot of your other posts because you do make compelling arguments and always try to keep discussions civilized. And hey everybody has their own views, there are Merrill lovers, Merrill haters, Merrill whatever... I respect people's views whether they hate/love/neutral in regard to Merrill or any other characters.

To address your views:

1) I do not think Marethari claims what the Eluvian is going to do as a fact. I said that she is just trying to be on the cautious side. The "most evil" thing the mirror had done that we know as a fact is that it caused the death of Tamlen and/or Mahariel and that it is corrupted by the Darkspawn. Morrigan claims that Eluvian leads to a place to somewhere beyond the Fade and Thedas and knowing Morrigan, I will believe that she is telling the truth. But that is on a perfectly working Eluvian free of any Darkspawn corruption. Well in this case, we know that the Eluvian is most probably indeed a portal. So is there no reason why Marethari may believe that the demon will use the fixed Eluvian to escape since it is a portal after all? It may not be a fact but it's still a highly plausible scenario and if Marethari can prevent it, why shouldn't she? Furthermore, the Eluvian is still a very foreign object, Morrigan has to steal a Dalish book to learn about it and it may only have been a glimpse. No character so far knows anything about the Eluvian enough to determine what it really is.


2) None of the companions willingly betray Hawke in the Fade, and I take Merrill's words when she said afterwards that she shouldn't have trusted it. But with the Pride Demon, having her in the party will override everybody else's betrayal. The game make it seems that she has the biggest "pride" issues (I don't think this is gameplay purpose and looking at Fenris' and Varric's reasons for falling to the Pride Demon, Merrill's reason for believing the demon's deal is the strongest). I just cringe that she gains friendship points for giving Fenryiel to Topor when everybody else gain rivalry points. I'm not suggesting that her Night Terrors' betrayal is a mean of saying that she is a backstabber more than the other companions, everybody falls to temptation in the Fade which is evidence during the Broken Circle (though Morrigan and Sten did not). I always forgive the companions after their "betrayal", rival or friend


3) As for Merrill knowing more about the Eluvian than Marethari, I would say yes in regards on the Eluvian itself. But does she know about what the demon wants with the Eluvian more than the Keeper? I don't think so, the Eluvian so far is harmless but we don't know what will happen when it is fully fixed and especially what the demon plans to do with it. I just feel that I do not want Merrill to take that chance (a feeling which I think Marethari, the whole clan and Hawke's companions share). Merrill puts a lot of faith in herself but if so... why are so many people against it, can you blame her for not listening *even* a little bit?


My first question in my last post is just there... because it seems hard for people to be convinced of an argument if you have such an unconditional love towards something/someone... Like what my history teacher will always say - a compelling argument always have 2 sides, if it's a totally positive and negative post, then you will assumed to be bias, everything is flawed and nothing is perfect. Though everybody is bias in a way, it's just human nature. And I will reinstate again that I highly respect everybody's views especially when arguments are being done in a civilized manner

P.S: It's 3 a.m on where I am, grammar isn't exactly my top priority especially in such a long post [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/tongue.png[/smilie]

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I've never once claimed Merrill is without flaws. But in this regard, where she's doing something noble? No flaws are present here.


however, your case has a few things I would like to point out.

1) Marethari's claim on what the Eluvian will be used for is based purely on speculation on her part. She has done no research into the Eluvian, and yet claims it is fact. Whereas Morrigan, who did extensive research on the Eluvian, discovered it leads to a place "Beyond Thedas and beyond the Fade". And frankly, I trust Morrigan over Marethari because she has more experience in the field of funny looking mirrors.

2) The Pride Demon did what the Sloth Demon's minions did to your companions in Broken Circle. While she wanted to restore lost culture to the elves, she didn't willingly make that choice to betray Hawke. She addresses this in her apology how the spirit was pulling at her heart, and no matter how much she didn't believe him, it was no use.

3) People say "Merrill's acting like she knows more than Marethari about the Eluvian". To that I say, yes she does know more because she's studied this thing, spent years around it, and done all sorts of things to restore it. Marethari hasn't. In fact, Merrill only goes to the spirit a total of 3 times: the first is with the Keeper, the second to learn blood magic, and the third when we go with her. I think she put more faith and trust in herself than she did the spirit.

I can't agree with your view, but I do respect it. It was well thought out and presented very nicely, if there were a few grammar mistakes here and there. But hey, I do that all the time. More than half of my edits end up being grammar fixes =P

Hmm...

1) Can you support your claim that Marethari has done no research into the demon/eluvian? Keep in mind that Morrigan stole her research notes on the mirror from the *Dalish*--which Marethari is. Marethari managed to do extemsive research on Dreamers for the Night Terrors quest, so what is to say she didn't manage to do the same on the eluvian (or had prior knowledge)?

2) If the Pride Demon's deception didn't require any sort of willingness, how it phrased its temptation wouldn't have mattered. Tempting Merrill with the success she wanted and praise of her people for restoring what they'd lost would have ensnared her just as much as offering an awesome pair of shoes.

3) "I think she put more faith and trust in herself than she did the spirit." Perhaps. But faith in yourself *can* be construed as pride, of a sort. Merrill ignored everyone who cared about her to chase after the lost lore of her people--and did you notice that none of them seemed to *care* about said lost lore if it meant involving blood magic and demons and a mirror that tainted/killed members of their clan? There would always be other ways to find some of what was lost, with time and effort, but Merrill chose the fast* and risky way to try and get *everything* Arlathan had once been (*fast, yes, I know this was stretched out ofer 6 or so years, but it's still fast if you consider how long ago Arlathan was destroyed).

Perhaps Merrill does know more about the eluvian, who knows? But Marethari probably knows more about demons, not to mention Keeper magic and Dalish lore. How do we know she didn't figure out Audacity's plans some other way?

[LadyBri]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

the one in Witch Hunt was pissed too, so I doubt it has to do with Merrill's path

The one in Witch Hunt was in Dragonbone Wastes, filled with crazy cultists and previously by the Mother and her army.  I don't imagine that one was a protector of the people, like on Sundermount.  So yeah... I do believe Merrill caused it to turn against the Elves it would normally and did normally protect.  Even Merrill, in her naive voice, is surprised at the change in behavior with the varterral, as presumably it was there before to protect the elves and there had been no other problems with it but "...something seems to have upset it" (paraphrase).

[Joy Divison]

@ Priisus:

In just about all my responses on Merrill, I have admitted she has flaws and ventures on a highly dangerous path.  I think most of other other pro-Merrill posters also do the same.  Why is it that you have to ask if we think she is without flaws?  I do think she does not have some of the flaws leveled against her - the OP either does not now what narcissim means or has not objectively analysed Merrill's character - that is not that same as implying she is somehow flawless.

In your second point, you are taking it as canon that Merrill would have been possessed.  It is a completely valid speculation that this is how events would have unfolded and perhaps the most likely, but it is just that, speculation, and the con-Merrill crowd fails to recognize the distiction between their opinion and fact.

In your third point, you make it clear that you trust Marethari's opinion more than Merrill's on the eluvian which Merrill without question is the greater authority.  I think a very strong case can be made that we do know it has been cleansed of its corruption and I don;t need Merrill's word - it has been sitting in her home for years and it has in all the time never tempted anyone (Merrill, Hawke's companions, Merrill's neighbors who are literally 5 feet away from it separated by a flimsy hovel wall, etc) from touching it as it did Tamlen, and  been handled and worked on by someone who has not contacted the darkspawn taint.  To think this eluvian is dangerous, you must disregard this compelling evidence in favor of Marethari's speculation which is based in large part on fear.  Similarly a strong case can be made that Marethari is doing more than "out of fear that she may bring back the corruption or worse."  Every single Dalish elf in that clan attacks you with none of them even wondering if it was a good idea or even the right thing to do.  You are asking us to blame the individual clan member, but all of them acted the same way.  Pol's reaction is clearly not the reaction of someone who fears Merrill "may bring back the corruption or worse."  You say you don't get the hate on Marethari or the clan for their attack on Merrill.  Compare/contrast Marethari's "solution" to Merrill's during's Merrill's final quest.

Marethari: Did not move her clan away from a highly dangerous situation, did not bother telling any of them she had to undertake a potentially lethal journey, willingly allowed herself, a powerful mage, to be possessed and thus freeing a demon bound for thousands of years.  Unwise, reckless, and unkeeperlike because she abandoned her responsiblity to the whole clan.

Merrill: Recognized the real danger to herself and others, took precautions that if powerful demon possessed her, she would have been the only victim.  Merrill showed more responsibility to her clan than Marethari in this instance and doesn't seem nearly as naive as the Marethari.

Merrill does not think she can get what she wants from a demon without any negative confidence.  She thinks there is a real possibility that she may die.  That sounds like a negative consequence to me.  People love throwing the word naive on her, but it is all too often done in examples in which Merrill is not being naive.

The "Night Terrors" quest I feel is highly problematic because the plot railroads all of your companions to betray Hawke, who just happens to be the only human able to resist temptation.  This reaks of lazy writing and a contrived means to show how awesome Hawke is.  I do understand the frustration the "con-Merrill" crowd has when Merrill defenders want to exclude this quest from the argument, but the "pro-Merrill" crowd is equally frustrated when Merrill critics will so willingly swallow hook, line, and sinker an obvious plot contriviance because it is convenient to their argument. There is absolutely no diversity of reaction amongst your non-abomination colleagues representative of their experience and willpower to the single line temptation that is offered  (cf. Orgins fade).

It may perfectly be correct that Merrill is "chasing after a lottery ticket" whose time and effort would be better spent on other endeavours.  But science and society needs Merrills to progress otherwise we love in a stultifying conservatism where unorthodox thinking and scientifc pursuits are deemed "dangerous."

Modifié par Joy Divison, 28 avril 2011 - 03:27 .

[loranna238]

I understand what everyone is saying, I can even understand the angles most of you are coming from, but still feel conviction that encouraging her is the wrong thing to do.

could you at least say "in my opinion". Because without it it's like you're saying anyone who does encourage her is obviously wrong.

In all of my posts I have said "to me" and that I feel, and the dictionary states:



con·vic·tion   /kənˈvɪkʃən/ Show IPA

–noun
1.
a fixed or firm belief.

So, by saying this I am saying it is my *belief* that is wrong.

I do not understand how it is I have to apparently use the exact words, "in my opinion" to state that well, this whole thing is my opinion and feeling on the matter. I have also stated repeatedly that I see things a certain way; what I am saying is despite the objections to the contrary that I continue to see things this way.

And I think that I am perfectly allowed to do so, as is anyone else

[TEWR]

3 responses.... time to get to work!

[quote] LadyBri wrote...

The one in Witch Hunt was in Dragonbone Wastes, filled with crazy cultists and previously by the Mother and her army. I don't imagine that one was a protector of the people, like on Sundermount. So yeah... I do believe Merrill caused it to turn against the Elves it would normally and did normally protect. Even Merrill, in her naive voice, is surprised at the change in behavior with the varterral, as presumably it was there before to protect the elves and there had been no other problems with it but "...something seems to have upset it" (paraphrase).

[/quote]

I don't think there's enough info to really tell what's causing them to act funny. But imo it's definitely something bigger than they don't like what Merrill's doing or a few cultists are trespassing. Remember, that same Varterral on Sundermount protected Zevran, who is part Dalish, yet it attacked everyone else that was Dalish. If the Varterral only attacked Merrill your idea but have some validity in my mind, but it attacked everyone in the clan.

Something grave is afoot that has pissed off the Varterrals. My guess? They're pissed about the fall of Arlathan and the fall of the Dales. Or maybe Arlathan isn't lost. I don't know, but something bigger than what Merrill's doing seems to ****** them off. We've also seen evidence that the origins of Blood Magic may have come from the elves of Arlathan, so her using Blood Magic wouldn't be something that would ****** off the Varterral if the origins were indeed true.

[quote] Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

1) Can you support your claim that Marethari has done no research into the demon/eluvian? Keep in mind that Morrigan stole her research notes on the mirror from the *Dalish*--which Marethari is. Marethari managed to do extemsive research on Dreamers for the Night Terrors quest, so what is to say she didn't manage to do the same on the eluvian (or had prior knowledge)?

[/quote]

Morrigan stole her notes from an entirely different clan. Ariane is a part of a clan we have not seen. Merrill said that Marethari was so mired in her fear of the Eluvian that she didn't study it. If she had prior knowledge on the Eluvian, she should've told Merrill everything and how bad it might be instead of going "No, don't do this! Stop da'len!". She would've been purposely withholding information that might've made Merrill change her stance. So I doubt Marethari knew anything about the Eluvian ever except that it's ancient, elven, and very glassy.

[quote]
2) If the Pride Demon's deception didn't require any sort of willingness, how it phrased its temptation wouldn't have mattered. Tempting Merrill with the success she wanted and praise of her people for restoring what they'd lost would have ensnared her just as much as offering an awesome pair of shoes.
[/quote]

So what? Because the demon used some wording they couldn't have been controlled and you dismiss that idea? Just because he didn't cast a spell doesn't mean it didn't happen. I value the word of Merrill about how the demon pulled at her heart.

Fenris says he thought he was above such things. I doubt your friends would willingly betray you for a demon, which everyone knows goes wrong. I wouldn't dismiss the idea of the betrayal being forced. However, I have to quote Joy Division here:

[quote]
The "Night Terrors" quest I feel is highly problematic because the plot railroads all of your companions to betray Hawke, who just happens to be the only human able to resist temptation. This reaks of lazy writing and a contrived means to show how awesome Hawke is. I do understand the frustration the "con-Merrill" crowd has when Merrill defenders want to exclude this quest from the argument, but the "pro-Merrill" crowd is equally frustrated when Merrill critics will so willingly swallow hook, line, and sinker an obvious plot contriviance because it is convenient to their argument. There is absolutely no diversity of reaction amongst your non-abomination colleagues representative of their experience and willpower to the single line temptation that is offered (cf. Orgins fade).
[/quote]

I agree here Joy. Hawke being the only person, aside from Justice, above the influence of an evil spirit was something that shouldn't have been done. It is trying to show how much of a bamf Hawke is. If maybe 2 companions could've been persuaded not to turn on you, it woudl've been better.


[quote]

3) "I think she put more faith and trust in herself than she did the spirit." Perhaps. But faith in yourself *can* be construed as pride, of a sort. Merrill ignored everyone who cared about her to chase after the lost lore of her people--and did you notice that none of them seemed to *care* about said lost lore if it meant involving blood magic and demons and a mirror that tainted/killed members of their clan? There would always be other ways to find some of what was lost, with time and effort, but Merrill chose the fast* and risky way to try and get *everything* Arlathan had once been (*fast, yes, I know this was stretched out ofer 6 or so years, but it's still fast if you consider how long ago Arlathan was destroyed).

[/quote]

If you actually talk to her at some point, she says she was never really close to the rest of the clan. I don't remember where, but she does say that. As for other ways to find lost lore, if there were easier and better ways the other clans would've discovered them. The thing that you have to take into account is that there is very little of the old elven lore and artifacts left, so every piece is precious.

[quote]

[TEWR]

thanks for saying you like my posts. I like that my posts are liked by some, even if I tend to ramble.

Priisus wrote...

1) I do not think Marethari claims what the Eluvian is going to do as a fact. I said that she is just trying to be on the cautious side. The "most evil" thing the mirror had done that we know as a fact is that it caused the death of Tamlen and/or Mahariel and that it is corrupted by the Darkspawn. Morrigan claims that Eluvian leads to a place to somewhere beyond the Fade and Thedas and knowing Morrigan, I will believe that she is telling the truth. But that is on a perfectly working Eluvian free of any Darkspawn corruption. Well in this case, we know that the Eluvian is most probably indeed a portal. So is there no reason why Marethari may believe that the demon will use the fixed Eluvian to escape since it is a portal after all? It may not be a fact but it's still a highly plausible scenario and if Marethari can prevent it, why shouldn't she? Furthermore, the Eluvian is still a very foreign object, Morrigan has to steal a Dalish book to learn about it and it may only have been a glimpse. No character so far knows anything about the Eluvian enough to determine what it really is.

I wouldn't say that Eluvian was free of corruption considering the Mother made her nest there and many Darkspawn were there, some of whom were the Children whom Constable Aidan says that they possess a corruption so virulent much of Amaranthine succumbed to it in less than a day.

I can understand Marethari's view given that she doesn't know what Morrigan knows, but I still can't see it as plausible. Blood Magic on the Eluvian wouldn't make it a portal, because the Tevinters did this and all they got was a fancy telephone.

As for what it is, we at least know that two people know more about it than anyone else. Actually, Ariane may know some things considering she saw it in action and possibly reported it to her clan.

2) None of the companions willingly betray Hawke in the Fade, and I take Merrill's words when she said afterwards that she shouldn't have trusted it. But with the Pride Demon, having her in the party will override everybody else's betrayal. The game make it seems that she has the biggest "pride" issues (I don't think this is gameplay purpose and looking at Fenris' and Varric's reasons for falling to the Pride Demon, Merrill's reason for believing the demon's deal is the strongest). I just cringe that she gains friendship points for giving Fenryiel to Topor when everybody else gain rivalry points. I'm not suggesting that her Night Terrors' betrayal is a mean of saying that she is a backstabber more than the other companions, everybody falls to temptation in the Fade which is evidence during the Broken Circle (though Morrigan and Sten did not). I always forgive the companions after their "betrayal", rival or friend

Maybe that makes her pride the strongest, but it could even be by a miniscule amount. she gains friendship not from making a deal with the demon, but hearing him out. You can still refuse and she'll give you friendship points.

3) As for Merrill knowing more about the Eluvian than Marethari, I would say yes in regards on the Eluvian itself. But does she know about what the demon wants with the Eluvian more than the Keeper? I don't think so, the Eluvian so far is harmless but we don't know what will happen when it is fully fixed and especially what the demon plans to do with it. I just feel that I do not want Merrill to take that chance (a feeling which I think Marethari, the whole clan and Hawke's companions share). Merrill puts a lot of faith in herself but if so... why are so many people against it, can you blame her for not listening *even* a little bit?

I'd say yes she does know more about what the demon wants given that blood magic + Eluvian = big reflecting telephone. She probably even studied some Tevinter lore on the Eluvians, which isn't entirely impossible given that the Free Marches were once controlled by Tevinter.

Me? I feel she does need to take the chance. She'll do it either way and stops either way. It is our mistakes that shape us. What was the Loghain quote about the past? Something like...

The past is always with us. It is burned into our flesh and carried in our blood.

something like that anyway.

My first question in my last post is just there... because it seems hard for people to be convinced of an argument if you have such an unconditional love towards something/someone... Like what my history teacher will always say - a compelling argument always have 2 sides, if it's a totally positive and negative post, then you will assumed to be bias, everything is flawed and nothing is perfect. Though everybody is bias in a way, it's just human nature. And I will reinstate again that I highly respect everybody's views especially when arguments are being done in a civilized manner

P.S: It's 3 a.m on where I am, grammar isn't exactly my top priority especially in such a long post ../../../images/forum/emoticons/tongue.png

I'll concede that much. Rarely, if ever, will a Merrill lover turn Merrill neutral or Merrill hater. Me? I love her way too much. She's my favorite romance. And if I try to romance Isabella, Anders, or Fenris; I'll end up going back to Merrill.

And hey I know the feeling about late at night typing. I typed my previous posting up top around 5 a.m and had to have made more than 150 grammar mistakes

Now, I'm gonna go finish up my Mahariel playthrough. He's in Amgarrak now, then he's gonna go hunt some witches that weigh the same as a duck. But he loves that about Morrigan. Then I'll import him to DA2.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 28 avril 2011 - 04:15 .

[loranna238]

Priisus wrote...

**politely snipped due to length**

I don't dislike Merrill but I'm not fond of her... (I guess she is just not that high in comparison to the other DA2 companions in my books...). But she is definately not crazy (none of Hawke's companions are) or evil (the tragedy of the Keeper and/or clan is anything but an unfortunate incident). Marethari sacrificing herself... yes I find that a very noble thing to do... as Merrill was indeed not listening *to anybody* and that Marethari's love for her is her own undoing. As for the clan, yes it is their own fault to attack Hawke and co but I think their anger and sadness are understandable, I mean come on they just lost their "mother" (I really don't get how people just seem to hate on the whole clan and Marethari on this one) .And I agree with hoorayforicecream... Merrill is chasing after a lottery ticket, one that may indeed bring her and the whole Dalish a really great thing but it is riding a lot on chance, it is always and still a maybe... I'm sorry girl, and as Aveline puts it, Merrill is "one very talented girl but stupid" (ok I won't call her stupid... naive is the better word) - for chasing after things that maybe should be left buried.

I think you have put things a lot better than I have, to be honest, and have agreed with everything you have said.

[In Exile]

LobselVith8 wrote...
I notice a lot of people dismiss Merrill as being ignorant or naive simply because she does something they don't agree with.

Merril is naive. She has no idea what the Eluvian is, what it was used for (ETA: truly used for, beyond communication, given what Morrigain does), or how the Elves dealt with it. Even if it works as intended (the Varatrels seem to too) it's not clear it won't kill her people. She believes that demons offer something of value; and that's her biggest mistake. She's not stupid, so she knews a demon will cheat her; but she thinks she can dance on the sword-edge and get want she wants.

What Merril has reason to believe (though I disagree with her on it) is that the taint is gone versus suppressed. For her to cleanse the mirror using bloodmagic would have to mean there exists a magic powerful enough to actually overcome and remove the blight.

Put another way, she thinks that even if she gets possed she could push the situation in a way that helps the elves. that's why she's naive - because the mirror never gets better. Even if the taint was gone, it's not actually ever clear the demon can make the Eluvian whole again. But she never gives up believing it will work. For all we know the demon was full of **** and would just end up saying "Let me posses you, and combined we can fix it." 

The mirror is an absolute unknown, and Merril is ready to give up everything for it. Well, as it turns out, Marethari is ready to give up anything for Merril. She's just as naive, because she thinks Merril will relent with a scolding.

The only difference between Merril and Marethari are what they value; Merril thinks she'll restore the future of the elves and Marethari just wants to save Merril. They're both valuing a personal commitment moreso than their concerete duty (to their clan, versus to a psuedo-daugther or the abstract 'elven people').

Modifié par In Exile, 28 avril 2011 - 06:25 .

[TEWR]

off topic but I just woke up from a nap. In my dreams in this nap I was carrying Merrill's Eluvian up my house steps. And I was a Dalish Elf. And Velanna and Merrill were there too.

that's about all I remember. Wasn't anything epic, sadly.

[Agamo45]

 Merril is pretty evil, don't be fooled by the innocent face. She approves of allowing a demon to possess Fenyriel for example. 

[tonnactus]

No one has to fight the whole clan if hawke just agree that merills bloddmagic was reponsible for this (what is wrong)
and he/she make sure that merill didnt hurt anyone with blood magic.
So the only victim is "pol" and the stupid keeper who spread panic without any reason.

Modifié par tonnactus, 29 avril 2011 - 11:52 .

[loranna238]

Agamo45 wrote...

 Merril is pretty evil, don't be fooled by the innocent face. She approves of allowing a demon to possess Fenyriel for example. 

Feynriel being possessed by the demon is in the second act I think. I played it towards the end of the act, as one of the last quests. 

See, the thought I am having is that Merrill doesn't start out having bad tendencies, even though when you meet her she was already being influenced by the demon,.  She instead develops them the longer she obssesses over the mirror and the more the player enables her obsession. 

(as I have to say this...(rolling my eyes) "In my opinion", the less than desirable traits that I notice, and the freak moments that most have noticed, seem mixed up in the good sweet Merrill moments, because this is happening gradually to her *over time*.   Therefore, it is in the player's hands to determine the best outcome for Merrill. 

Apparently, no matter what you choose to do in regards to her, the same things happen, because Merrill does what she wants to do and continues on the path despite any objections and resistance.  The difference apparently is in the end, instead of being proud of her actions despite their results, she is instead sorry for what has happened and realizes she should never have made the deal with the demon to begin with.  Apparently. I still need to do another playthrough. to see for sure, but I was told this was what happens by someone else.  I will see.

[LobselVith8]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

In other words, it's a risk, which Merrill knows because she openly addresses that it could mean her life - if she loses a battle of wills to the demon Audacity, and it's a gamble that could pay off if the Eluvian is as important as Morrigan indicated it is to the Warden.

I'm not saying it's not a risk. But there's a big difference between something with a high chance of success (can I roll higher than a 1 on a six-sided die?) and something with a much lower chance of success (can I roll a six on a six-sided die?). It's called risk assessment. It's how you determine whether a risk is worth taking.

If you have an opportunity to gamble, and you have an 80% chance to win triple your initial investment, then it is a worthwhile risk.

If you have an opportunity to gamble, and you have an unknown chance to win an unknown amount of money, and you are betting your life... I don't know about you, but I wouldn't consider that a worthwhile risk. Why? There are too many unknowns to make a reasonably accurate assessment.

While Merrill thinks that the chance to reclaim a piece of Arlathan is worth the risk, since she thinks it can be invaluable to her people. If she's right, her people benefit. If she's wrong, the elves remain in the same state of stagnation that they have been in for centuries.

hoorayforicecream wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Yet it's our convictions that can lead us on the right path. It's the gamble that the Warden took to the Frostback Mountains that lead to the Urn of Sacred Ashes. Merrill's venture is no different - maybe it'll accomplish what she thinks it will, or maybe it won't, but it's certainly better than maintaining the status quo and doing nothing of consequence.

Then you can continue to hope beyond hope. Maybe you're just hopelessly romantic. I am a pragmatist. There are things she could have done in those six years to care for the elves (like being their First, teaching the younger ones their ways, etc.) that she didn't because she was spending all her time on the eluvian. Maybe you don't see that time spent as being worthwhile. I'm ok with that.

I don't think it's pragmatic to do nothing as opposed to something, particularly if there's a chance for the people to benefit. I see reason to spare the Anvil, to side with Bhelen as King, to keep Avernus alive and pushing himself to the limit, because the potential rewards were worth the risk. The Anvil could mean the difference between the survival or extinction of the dwarven people, the rule of Bhelen could change Orzammar for the better, and the secrets of the taint could be invaluable against an implacable enemy that never surrenders. Merrill building the Eluvian is no different, because she's either going to strive towards a goal that may be able to irrevocably change the elven way of life, or she can do nothing and allow the status quo to flourish. Merrill is looking to change the status quo by introducing technology that was utilized by the Arlathan elves.

hoorayforicecream wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

And no one else was willing to take the risks that Merrill was, because she was the only who had the conviction to go her own way and attempt to rebuild a two thousand year old elven technology from the kingdom of Arlathan. I respect that Merrill was proactive in trying to make a positive change for her people while Hawke was reactive to the point of not even investigating the evidence of an accomplice in his mother's murder.

Noone else was willing to take those risks because noone else thought that it was a worthwhile trade.

You might be willing to bet your life on a lottery ticket, but I'd rather just invest that money in some blue chips.

Merrill thinks the potential trade is worthwhile because it means a potential gain for her people. While you may not agree (and you're within your right not to), Merrill does, and I see her actions as the pragmatic choice to change a lifestyle of stagnation by bringing forth knowledge that eluded even the Magisters of the Imperium.

[TEWR]

Agamo45 wrote...

 Merril is pretty evil, don't be fooled by the innocent face. She approves of allowing a demon to possess Fenyriel for example. 

How many times must it be said that she approves of hearing Torpor out in his proposal, not actually letting him possess Feynriel, before people stop using "She approves of possession!" as a reason to hate on Merrill.

[hoorayforicecream]

LobselVith8 wrote...

While Merrill thinks that the chance to reclaim a piece of Arlathan is worth the risk, since she thinks it can be invaluable to her people. If she's right, her people benefit. If she's wrong, the elves remain in the same state of stagnation that they have been in for centuries.

This is incorrect on both counts. If she's right, her people might benefit. There is no guarantee that they will benefit. If she's wrong, the elves remain in the same state of stagnation that they have been in for centuries and (most importantly) Merrill is dead. Any other potential things Merrill might have done during her life to help the People are gone.

Pardon me for valuing Merrill's life.

I don't think it's pragmatic to do nothing as opposed to something, particularly if there's a chance for the people to benefit.

You're using a strawman here. Nobody is advocating doing nothing. I certainly never advocated doing nothing. People are advocating not intentionally dealing with demons for something that may not be of real benefit. The choice is not "build the eluvian or do nothing". The choice is " build the eluvian or do something else".

Merrill thinks the potential trade is worthwhile because it means a potential gain for her people. While you may not agree (and you're within your right not to), Merrill does, and I see her actions as the pragmatic choice to change a lifestyle of stagnation by bringing forth knowledge that eluded even the Magisters of the Imperium.

Nobody is advocating stagnation. People are advocating a more constructive use of her time instead of the eluvian, preferably one that doesn't potentially end in Merrill's death.

[Maria Caliban]

LadyBri wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

the one in Witch Hunt was pissed too, so I doubt it has to do with Merrill's path

The one in Witch Hunt was in Dragonbone Wastes, filled with crazy cultists and previously by the Mother and her army.  I don't imagine that one was a protector of the people, like on Sundermount.  So yeah... I do believe Merrill caused it to turn against the Elves it would normally and did normally protect.  Even Merrill, in her naive voice, is surprised at the change in behavior with the varterral, as presumably it was there before to protect the elves and there had been no other problems with it but "...something seems to have upset it" (paraphrase).

I actually think Hawke going into the Primeval Thiag and bringing out the lyrium idol is what upset it. They've fiddled with the time like so Witch Hunt happens after Act 1 so the statue's prophecy about the prison being breached might also apply.

[Herr Uhl]

Maria Caliban wrote...

I actually think Hawke going into the Primeval Thiag and bringing out the lyrium idol is what upset it. They've fiddled with the time like so Witch Hunt happens after Act 1 so the statue's prophecy about the prison being breached might also apply.

I hope that is true so that the red lyrium and the idol might be explored more in detail in sequels/dlc. As it is now it is just a maguffin.

[Wulfram]

Herr Uhl wrote...

I hope that is true so that the red lyrium and the idol might be explored more in detail in sequels/dlc. As it is now it is just a maguffin.

It's more Green Rocks than a MacGuffin.  The Tome of Koslun is very much a Macguffin, though.

[TEWR]

Maria Caliban wrote...

LadyBri wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

the one in Witch Hunt was pissed too, so I doubt it has to do with Merrill's path

The one in Witch Hunt was in Dragonbone Wastes, filled with crazy cultists and previously by the Mother and her army.  I don't imagine that one was a protector of the people, like on Sundermount.  So yeah... I do believe Merrill caused it to turn against the Elves it would normally and did normally protect.  Even Merrill, in her naive voice, is surprised at the change in behavior with the varterral, as presumably it was there before to protect the elves and there had been no other problems with it but "...something seems to have upset it" (paraphrase).

I actually think Hawke going into the Primeval Thiag and bringing out the lyrium idol is what upset it. They've fiddled with the time like so Witch Hunt happens after Act 1 so the statue's prophecy about the prison being breached might also apply.

that actually makes a lot of sense. The Primeval Thaig could be seen as a prison that was keeping the Profane where they were. Barely any dwarf had seen them before then.

[LobselVith8]

[quote]Priisus wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

I think if Varric and this thread have taught us anything, it's that dwarves like Merrill. [/quote]

LOL... Well that's an interesting way to put it... [/quote]

That's why Merrill is going to love Orzammar. I'm pretty sure the architects finished putting up the statute of the Surana Warden where Harrowmont's estate used to be.

[quote]Priisus wrote...

*cough* ok well back to topic. So for people defending her to death, lemme just ask one very simple question: do you think Merrill is without flaws? [/quote]

This isn't the first time I've read this. Why do people assume that simply because I don't believe in the Chantry dogma that blood magic is evil or that the Eluvian is a waste of time (because I find the restoration of the past to be important), that the only conclusion is that I find Merrill to be without flaws? Merrill isn't flawless, but I find her proactive attempts to help her people more encouraging than the reactive nature of the clans who seem to hope that they might stumble upon something important.

[quote]Priisus wrote...

I agree with a lot of points on what you had to say about her but the way you put it seems that she is... so spotless... and blameless... (I don't have anything against your views... I'm just curious in that aspect...) [/quote]

I don't blame Merrill for Marethari's death because the Keeper is an adult and made her own choice, and I don't blame Merrill for the clan trying to murder her because, in the real world, attempted murder is never blamed on the intended victim. I admire Merrill's goals, although I think she does indeed have flaws, but I respect what she's trying to do. She's intending to restore a piece of technology that she believes will fundamentally help her people, even when they dismiss her. I certainly think that Tamlen and Marethari's death played a role in her actions, but the Dalish are all about restoring their past. Merrill is being more true to the Dalish mantra than Marethari is: the Keepers never forget, even the dangerous things. For me, Merrill is no different than the Warden going to Haven and trying to find the Urn of Sacred Ashes - it could be entirely fruitless and possibly end in death, or it could be beneficial and mean a great deal to the people.

[quote]Priisus wrote...

First of all, blood magic is just another form of magic and not necessarily evil. *True*, if people remember Jowan, at first the reason he was dabbling in blood magic was just trying to avoid being turned into a tranquil and defending Lily, the woman he loves (damn circle mages and they are not-allowed-to-love rule). Then bam, he went on and do some nasty stuff to Arl Eamon. [/quote]

Because the Hero of River Dane told Jowan that Arl Eamon was a threat to the nation. The man who saved the nation from an Orlesian occupation where people were getting killed and women were getting raped told him to assist the nation in dealing with an enemy agent. Jowan's willingness to atone and become Master Levyn, and help refugees against the darkspawn, illustrates that he's a good man who has made mistakes.

[quote]Priisus wrote...

Desperation? Sure, as he is essentially branded a Maleficar and thinking Loghain may bail him out (he is after all one of the most respected man in Fereldan). All Jowan wants is to survive and he did not expect all the nasty undead that infested Redcliffe due to his actions. He in fact regreted that decision and wished to make ammends. And then we look at the "evil" blood mages... The Baroness from Awakening? Quentin *shudders*. I think it is not the blood magic itself that is evil but what it is being used for. The Baroness trying to keep her youthful appearance through sacrificing the young girls of Blackmarsh and Quentin going all Frankestein... Those are obviously deeds done by crazy people and not by blood magic or magic in any form... and as Hawke puts it (with Quentin) "he can as easily murders her with a knife". [/quote]

It's used for much more than that, though. There's also the Joining that creates new Grey Wardens and provides a means for the Blights to come to an end, the ritual Finn performed to locate the Guardians, and the phylacteries used by the templars. Duncan makes it clear that some Warden mages use blood magic against the darkspawn, and the Warden can make it clear in Warden's Keep that blood magic isn't prohibited by the order.

[quote]Priisus wrote...

So back to Merrill and blood magic. What is her intention to use the blood magic? To possibly restore the working of an old artifact that may explain the long lost history of the elves. A noble goal? Of course, I support her in that.  Ok I can't remember where I read about it but blood magic is so widely condemned in Thedas that it's so hard to learn it because nobody teaches you. So one of the most common way is to look at a demon in the eye and accept its offer to learn blood magic which is true in Merrill's case (and in Origins). Did I agree with Merrill on this? Absolutely not. And I'm with Keeper Marethari on this one... you don't know what the demon wants! It could possibly be using the Eluvian to travel to the Thedas or the Fade or some other realm or possess Merrill itself. In fact if not for Marethari, it is Merrill herself that got possessed (a possibility that she herself think may happen)! And why on earth would I (Hawke) allow that to happen, especially to my companion. Gosh I don't even wish for anybody to get possessed (even for somebody I don't like... like uhhh Petrice lol) . [/quote]

First, there's very little that we know about the risks involved in dealing with Audacity, who is imprisoned by ancient elven magic in a totem. Merrill learned blood magic in order to cleanse the shard of the Eluvian of its taint, and apparently it worked since she isn't a ghoul.

Second, should Merrill have taken the risk in building an Eluvian? That's basically an opinion, and there's clearly a lack of consensus on that opinion. I think the risks were worth the potential rewards, and so did Merrill. That doesn't mean I think she's perfect, but it means I think the benefits that could be gained from the Eluvian outweighed the danger involved in dealing with Audacity.

Third, we have no idea whether Merrill would have gotten possessed, or if it was Audacity's plan all along to possess Marethari. We don't know the risks involved in dealing with an imprisoned pride demon who is cut off from the Fade, and Merrill prepared for the worst case scenerio. It was a possibility, but it certainly wasn't a guarentee that it would happen.

[quote]Priisus wrote...

Second point, I don't trust that particular Eluvian, so far it had been harmless yes and Merrill may or may not have cleansed it (we only have her word for it, which may be a fact or not). My thoughts? Origins players know what that mirror did... it killed Tamlen and/or Mahariel. It was corrupted by the Darkspawn, whether there is still any trace left... we don't know. [/quote]

Is Merrill a ghoul? No. I don't see why we should assume the shard is still tainted when she said that she cleansed it. Also, Merrill build a new Eluvian with the shard she took from the Tamlen incident and lore she gathered, and the Warden uses a shard of the same Eluvian to find Morrigan in the Dragonbone Wastes.

[quote]Priisus wrote...

Even the Keeper who is a much more experienced mage than Merrill doesn't know if there is any trace of corruption left. [/quote]

Marethari talks in one breath that the shard could still be corrupted and that everyone should be wary of Merrill, and in the other breath she asks Merrill to come back to the clan. She changes her reasoning in Act III when she states that Audacity would have escaped its prison through the restored Eluvian, so Marethari can't even make up her mind about what's going to happen.

[quote]Priisus wrote...

But one thing is for certain about the Keeper: IF the only viable way to restore the Eluvian is to deal with the demon (with who-knows-what intention), then the past should be left as it is. A lot of people had been dissing the Keeper about telling the whole clan that Merrill is a "monster" (she did not, it's  Pol who thinks so) for trying to fix the mirror "out of fear that she may bring back the corruption or worse". Keeper is just trying to err on the side of danger, as for the clan's reaction to it, then blame the individual clan member. Marethari is there to warn them (as her duty requires) not tell them to hate Merrill (indirectly yes but you can tell that the clan do love their First, just look at Ilen who tries to persuade her to come back). [/quote]

People are taking the Keeper to task because Marethari is giving the clan the idea that Merrill will become corrupted, but then we see her telling Merrill that she can return if she abandons her goal.

[quote]Priisus wrote...

So out of all my ramblings, I do not dispute the fact that Merrill is a very talented mage. Ok maybe adorable and kind too. But she is naive to think that she can deal with demon and can get what she wants (Eluvian restored) from it without any negative consequences from the part of the demon. One read at her backstory, and I can tell it is an evil demon (which again is another fact that she acknowledged herself "All spirits are dangerous. I understood that"). I mean... it's like trying to purposely step into a land mine. My dear Merrill, I do not want that to happen to you even if you want it yourself. [/quote]

You think she's naive because she's doing something you personally don't agree with, and I disagree. People following a particular path that you don't think is correct doesn't make her naive. And why do people repeatedly make the claim that Merrill thinks there's no consequences to dealing with a demon? It's incorrect. Merrill fully states that all spirits are dangerous, that Hawke should be careful in dealing with the Abomination in the Deep Roads, and that she could possibly become an abomination and will need to be killed if she fails in a battle of wills with Audacity.

[quote]Priisus wrote...

And through her conversation with the Pride demon at "Night Terrors", she was easily tempted by the offer of becoming the "Dalish Saviour" (interesting note: she is always the first one to fall to the Pride Demon, above Fenris and Varric). [/quote]

You mean Merrill says that her people are more important in that conversation? This is the same quest where every single character (except Anders) is railroaded into trying to murder Hawke in cold blood because a demon says so. Apparently, only Hawke, wearing his awesome plot armor, is sufficiently able to say 'no' to a demon while everyone else is incapable of resisting, despite the fact that Origins and Awakening demonstrated that characters can resist demons in the Fade.

[quote]Priisus wrote...

Her main intention may always be to find the long lost elven history but demons can't just tempt you if there is not a hint of a single manifestation of it... (a conversation with Sebastian and the Flora Harriman girl in that particular quest). So deep inside maybe she felt unknowingly (even a little hint) that she can be remembered as the Dalish saviour... (well this is very human nature imo). [/quote]

Merrill went to Audacity because she wanted to cleanse the shard of its taint, and learned blood magic to accomplish that goal.

[quote]Priisus wrote...

A little narcisstic... yes I can agree on that even though it (the pride) is not her intention in the first place. On a side note... wow I'm surprised to hear that she called Fenryiel "half-breed boy" (never knew that until this thread) and got mad at the Keeper for trying to help him (I thought it is a very immediate danger... he can either die or be an abomination... come on Merrill... priorities ) [/quote]

Merrill disapproves if Hawke says he's going to kill Feynriel when he speaks with Marethari, and she says "I don't think we should be doing this" if he tries to sell Feynriel's soul (despite the approval gained, which I think is a bug given her actual dialogue in the scene).

[quote]Priisus wrote...

Also, I think the friendship/rivalry path is highly misunderstood; people think rivalry=being mean/I hate you when I think it means that Hawke is not supporting her decisions. [/quote]

I understand that, but it's also a bit deficient because it's cumulative - you can disagree with Fenris about mages but agree on slavery, and it's still the same.

[quote]Priisus wrote...

My first playthrough, I gave her the Arulin'holm even though I know it was bad for her. (Ok for those who said Fenris and Anders are just being mean to her... Aveline who is generally nice to Merrill in fact gets +Friendship if you refuse to give her the Arulin'holm).... 2nd playthrough I got her on the rivalry path which I feel is better for her. She destroyed the Eluvian in the end, admitted herself as being a fool which I'm proud of her for doing that (her romance bug creeps me out though)... [/quote]

That's because no one was in Merrill's corner, and everyone made her feel that what she was doing was wrong over the course of seven years. That really doesn't make it the right course of action. Anders is supposed to be able to be convinced to side with the templars against mages who did nothing wrong - who are going to be killed to the last man, woman, and child because Anders decided to blow up the Chantry. That doesn't mean that siding with the templars is the right course of action - it means Hawke can convince Anders that it's the right thing to do because that's his opinion.

[quote]Priisus wrote...

I'm on my 3rd playthrough now and I'm on the rivalry path with both Fenris and Anders (who are always on the friendship path in my 2 previous playthroughs). I seriously do not want to be mean to any of my companions but I have to "agree to disagree"... I don't support Fenris' "I hate all mages" attitude or Merrill's noble intention but self destructive path (everytime she slits her wrist, I cringe). [/quote]

Why does everyone always say it's self-destructive when they don't agree with Merrill? I don't see her path as self-destructive - she's proficiently using blood magic for several years, she's a learned student of the arcane arts and can tell if someone is possessed, and she can identify a Hunger Demon inhabiting one of the Profane. I don't see her faith in her goal to restore the Eluvian as self-destructive when people keep hurting themselves in fear of what she's doing. Pol, Marethari, and the clan members who try to kill Merrill are adults - their mistakes don't mean that Merrill is self-destructive. Just because Merrill is doing something that you don't agree with doesn't make it self-destructive.

[quote]Priisus wrote...

I don't dislike Merrill but I'm not fond of her... (I guess she is just not that high in comparison to the other DA2 companions in my books...). But she is definately not crazy (none of Hawke's companions are) or evil (the tragedy of the Keeper and/or clan is anything but an unfortunate incident). Marethari sacrificing herself... yes I find that a very noble thing to do... as Merrill was indeed not listening *to anybody* and that Marethari's love for her is her own undoing. [/quote]

I'd agree that Marethari loves Merrill. She's probably the closest thing that she had to a daughter.

[quote]Priisus wrote...

As for the clan, yes it is their own fault to attack Hawke and co but I think their anger and sadness are understandable, I mean come on they just lost their "mother" (I really don't get how people just seem to hate on the whole clan and Marethari on this one) .[/quote]

They lost a mother? So did Merrill. However, they seem more interested in throwing insults at Merrill and trying to murder her in cold blood than in mourning the Keeper's demise.

[quote]Priisus wrote...

And I agree with hoorayforicecream... Merrill is chasing after a lottery ticket, one that may indeed bring her and the whole Dalish a really great thing but it is riding a lot on chance, it is always and still a maybe... I'm sorry girl, and as Aveline puts it, Merrill is "one very talented girl but stupid" (ok I won't call her stupid... naive is the better word) - for chasing after things that maybe should be left buried. [/quote]

Aveline thinks it's stupid to pursue the past and she talks from a perspective that is ignorant of Dalish history and the elven outlook on the world, and Merrill disagrees - the very premise of the Dalish is restoration of the elven past.

[LobselVith8]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

While Merrill thinks that the chance to reclaim a piece of Arlathan is worth the risk, since she thinks it can be invaluable to her people. If she's right, her people benefit. If she's wrong, the elves remain in the same state of stagnation that they have been in for centuries.

This is incorrect on both counts. If she's right, her people might benefit. There is no guarantee that they will benefit. If she's wrong, the elves remain in the same state of stagnation that they have been in for centuries and (most importantly) Merrill is dead. Any other potential things Merrill might have done during her life to help the People are gone.

Pardon me for valuing Merrill's life.

Actually, you're incorrect on both accounts. If she's correct, her people will benefit, because it means that she was correct about what the Eluvian would mean for the People, but if she's wrong, her people won't benefit; that's the dichotomy here. The discussion is about what this will mean in terms of the elves, not Merrill, and I've addressed time and again that Merrill knows the risks could mean her life.

Pardon me for believing in Merrill.

hoorayforicecream wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I don't think it's pragmatic to do nothing as opposed to something, particularly if there's a chance for the people to benefit.

You're using a strawman here. Nobody is advocating doing nothing. I certainly never advocated doing nothing. People are advocating not intentionally dealing with demons for something that may not be of real benefit. The choice is not "build the eluvian or do nothing". The choice is " build the eluvian or do something else".

That's odd, because you're using a strawman retort. I never claimed you advocated doing nothing. Nothing in my statement implies as much. I'm addressing that, unlike Marethari and the other members of the clan, Merrill is trying to find a new way to reclaim part of the past, and is being proactive in trying to reclaim a part of Arlathan, while they are sitting at the top of Sundermount and waiting for new halla.

hoorayforicecream wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Merrill thinks the potential trade is worthwhile because it means a potential gain for her people. While you may not agree (and you're within your right not to), Merrill does, and I see her actions as the pragmatic choice to change a lifestyle of stagnation by bringing forth knowledge that eluded even the Magisters of the Imperium.

Nobody is advocating stagnation. People are advocating a more constructive use of her time instead of the eluvian, preferably one that doesn't potentially end in Merrill's death.

And people are addressing that the Eluvian represents the best possible method to reclaim a part of Arlathan, besides hoping that the clan stumbles upon something in their travels.

[hoorayforicecream]

LobselVith8 wrote...

I don't think it's pragmatic to do nothing as opposed to something, particularly if there's a chance for the people to benefit.

LobselVith8 wrote...
 I never claimed you advocated doing nothing.

 Maybe you didn't claim I did, but you're sure arguing against doing nothing... which nobody else is saying.

LobselVith8 wrote...

And people are addressing that the Eluvian represents the best possible method to reclaim a part of Arlathan, besides hoping that the clan stumbles upon something in their travels.

What people? Best possible method compared to what?

Are you still peddling that false dichotomy of "eluvian or nothing" that nobody besides you actually said?

If you are going to continue making up arguments against your stance and then argue against them, then please stop quoting me. It's confusing.

[TEWR]

I have to agree with Lob. The Eluvian is the best chance of reclaiming even an inkling of Arlathan's history. If the Varterral wasn't pissed off, then that would be the best chance. But it is. And after Marethari and Merrill explored the ruins, they found nothing else of interest to the ancient elven ways