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Old teammates vs new characters


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#126
Faerlyte

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NoSoyBueno wrote...

What I do not want is for the recruitment, loyalty, and suicide missions to be devalued. Everyone knew that the Suicide Mission was important, but to add new squadmates just so that losing people isn't a setback devalues it.

Consider this:
If Kasumi cannot be a squadmate, what does it matter if I had her survive the Suicide Mission? What about Zaeed? If they don't come back, they have just become cannon fodder.

If that is the case, I might as well have put Jacob in the vents, since he wasn't going to have an impact on anything in the future. I might as well have let Mordin die 'holding the line' since I can get a new squadmate that is just as good. I might as well have not recruited Thane since he is now just there for the romance. I might as well have not recruited Samara since Jack can do the biotic field just as well.

Why did I go through all of those recruitment and loyalty missions? To get a cameo that the rushers and new players are probably going to get anyway? For the 'satisfaction' that I did it?

I am sorry, but that does not cut it for me. I want the squad that I took the trouble of recruiting and gaining the loyalty of, and which is currently the only thing that justifies ME2. I do not want stock characters and red shirts.

James Sanders better be a gay love interest for male Shepard, otherwise I see no reason to add him.

-NSB


Couldn't have said it better myself. 

#127
CulturalGeekGirl

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laecraft wrote...

That sniper from the trailer? You guys think he's recruitable? I watched the video, and it gave me the impression that he's a symbol, representing the humanity on Earth which is desperately holding on while Shepard is gathering forces of galaxy. I thought he's just here to create an emotional connection to Earth and make you care.

The irony, though. That guy takes - what, maybe five seconds of screen time? And there are people who are already attached to him enough to want him on their team. It just shows that Bioware doesn't need two games to make you care and attached to characters. They can easily do it in five seconds of time. It's an answer to anyone who doubts that they can care about the strangers we meet in ME3.

Oh, you will care. And you'll forget all about your old teammates, too. Just you wait.


I don't... I don't actually think ol' Nigel is gonna be recruitable. I agree that he is a symbol, and that Bioware is probably really frustrated by how much people love him, considering they accidentally gave him more personality and faith in Shepard than any other human squadmate*. Chicks dig a british accent, Bioware. We also dig a sniper. You should have figured this out by now, but nooooooo-ooooooooooooooo.

Anyway, sure you can form a quick attatchment to a character. You can also completely fail to. It's a roll of the dice. Out of the five most popular characters I see come up in all the surveys (and I am obsessed with the surveys, you guys), four are characters who have at least appeared in both of the games (Garrus, Tali, Wrex, Liara). Nobody's forgetting about them, unless they get distracted by an especially spectacular butt. I will agree that if they somehow come up with an even better butt in ME3, people may forget about Miranda. However, such a butt may warp the fabric of space-time. I think it is a risk they cannot afford to take.

Onward! All characters in ME1 and ME2 had two missions specifically related to them and not-that-closely related to the plot - their recruitment mission and their loyalty mission. Characters appearing in both have even more development, from bonus missions in the first one. Several popular characters have plot irrelevant personal issues as their development missions (I'm looking at you, Garrus and Miranda.) If the best way to develop a certain character is a plot-irrelevant mission, ME3 is neither the time nor the place for it, so we can only include new characters whose development can be done neatly within the already-established confines of the plot. It'd be tricky to make half a dozen seamless, new, backstory-revealing missions seem like the natural progression of saving the galaxy. For returning characters, we already have all that stuff, so the new stuff doesn't need to be as thorough. There was more freedom to do whatever was best for character development, in ME2.

Jacob is the exception that proves the rule, here - he's the character people are least attached to. He came with us at the start of ME2, so he didn't get a real "recruitment mission," and his loyalty mission was completely irrelevant to the plot, added nothing to the world, and honestly wasn't that important to his character, either. (Garrus, Thane, and Miranda also have 'purely personal' sidequests, but they at least seem to care deeply about the result. Jacob says point-blank that he wasn't really all that bothered by it, after the mission. And that's fine, cool, but then why did we waste time doing it?) Jacob is proof positive that providing character development in a single game is hit-or-miss, a delicate proposition that cannot be counted upon to work every time.

Other than Dat Mass, the most popular new squadmates in ME2 are Mordin, Legion, and sometimes Jack. Now, all three of these are good examples of how to introduce a new character who has plot relevance. Their loyalty missions all deliver valuable plot progression (Jack provides further evidence that Cerberus is evil and can't ethics right. Mordin finally gives us insight into the Salarians and also into the Genophage, and Legion similarly Geths it up, with the bonus that his recruitment mission is also a central plot mission.) Other than Tali, pretty much nobody's recruitment or loyalty has anything to do with anything. They were designed to optimally develop character, rather than foreword the plot. We don't have that option in ME3.

So I think when it comes to characters in ME3, we'll get  2-3 new characters who are closely tied to story-relevant missions that reveal plot points, similar to Mordin, Legion, or Jack's loyalty missions. I think their recruitment missions will also need to synch with the plot, similar to Legion's. Two to three new plot relevant dudes is what they can manage, and that's what we'll probably get.  Everybody else will likely be old friends.




*This is a joke. I'm going to make a lot more of them in this post. Saddle up, my friends.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 27 avril 2011 - 12:17 .


#128
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NoSoyBueno wrote...

What I do not want is for the recruitment, loyalty, and suicide missions to be devalued. Everyone knew that the Suicide Mission was important, but to add new squadmates just so that losing people isn't a setback devalues it.

-NSB


You've put a team together to complete the suicide mission. If you managed to kill the Collectors in their base and survive, you have succeeded in your recruitment, loyalty, and suicide mission. Your crew's purpose has been fulfilled. None of them signed for more than suicide mission. None of them promised to stay with you for longer than that. Of course, it doesn't mean that they won't stay.

NoSoyBueno wrote...

Consider this:
If Kasumi cannot be a squadmate, what does it matter if I had her survive the Suicide Mission? What about Zaeed? If they don't come back, they have just become cannon fodder.

If that is the case, I might as well have put Jacob in the vents, since he wasn't going to have an impact on anything in the future. I might as well have let Mordin die 'holding the line' since I can get a new squadmate that is just as good. I might as well have not recruited Thane since he is now just there for the romance. I might as well have not recruited Samara since Jack can do the biotic field just as well.

-NSB


Not everything is about Shepard. I know sometimes it feels like the galaxy revolves around Commander, but it's not the case. You can see it when you ask your teammates from ME1 to join you. Most of them don't join. They have their own ways now. And when you were playing ME2 and realized that VS wouldn't be coming back, did you think, "I might have just as well let you both die on Virmire?" And if Bioware made sure that Liara wouldn't be joining you in ME3, would you think of her as cannon fodder, or would you remember how she rescued your body, so her life mattered, after all?

And if none of them help you in ME3, so what? They're cannot fodder, then? What if Mordin goes on to research the cure and undo or moderate the genophage? He's still a cannon fodder, because he doesn't join you? What if they aid you in other ways, or simply live their lives and make the galaxy a better place - the galaxy that you're saving in ME3? They still don't matter?

Recruitement "devalued"? You didn't enjoy their company in ME2 enough, then? In this case, what makes you think you're going to enjoy it more in ME3? I knew that the suicide mission might be the end of my Shepard, so I simply enjoyed the missions and the company of the crew while it lasted, without viewing those people as a long-term investment.

Life is very fleeting, especially for Shepard, and each moment of it is to be treasured while possible. That's why it was ridiculous to me when my old teammates complained that they can't handle my company because it's hard for them to grasp that I'm alive. Okay, makes sense coming from Asari, who really like their emotional investments to last for centuries, but the others, please enjoy my company while it lasts, because I won't be alive for long. Hell, with the Reapers coming, probably none of us will be.

NoSoyBueno wrote...

Why did I go through all of those recruitment and loyalty missions? To get a cameo that the rushers and new players are probably going to get anyway? For the 'satisfaction' that I did it?

-NSB


I found the suicide mission very satisfactory and climatic. Not to mention that the recruitment and loyalty missions were a reward in themselves. It probably depends on the mindset. When I'm playing a game, I'm viewing it a self-contained thing. I know there will be years before I see the next game, and I might not even live to see it. So it makes sense to enjoy it as is.

But of course, a lot of people are probably playing it with a trilogy in mind. And ME2 did have a rather heavy emphasis on gathering the crew. Only a few missions are about confrontation with the enemy. Since the game was 90% preparation and 10% action, many people expect that the main bulk of the action will come in the future game.

#129
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CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

laecraft wrote...

That sniper from the trailer? You guys think he's recruitable? I watched the video, and it gave me the impression that he's a symbol, representing the humanity on Earth which is desperately holding on while Shepard is gathering forces of galaxy. I thought he's just here to create an emotional connection to Earth and make you care.

The irony, though. That guy takes - what, maybe five seconds of screen time? And there are people who are already attached to him enough to want him on their team. It just shows that Bioware doesn't need two games to make you care and attached to characters. They can easily do it in five seconds of time. It's an answer to anyone who doubts that they can care about the strangers we meet in ME3.

Oh, you will care. And you'll forget all about your old teammates, too. Just you wait.


Chicks dig a british accent, Bioware. We also dig a sniper. You should have figured this out by now, but nooooooo-ooooooooooooooo.


Him and Kal'Reegar both...Apparently "a brave soldier in distress" is a popular trope among us.

#130
CulturalGeekGirl

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laecraft wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

laecraft wrote...

That sniper from the trailer? You guys think he's recruitable? I watched the video, and it gave me the impression that he's a symbol, representing the humanity on Earth which is desperately holding on while Shepard is gathering forces of galaxy. I thought he's just here to create an emotional connection to Earth and make you care.

The irony, though. That guy takes - what, maybe five seconds of screen time? And there are people who are already attached to him enough to want him on their team. It just shows that Bioware doesn't need two games to make you care and attached to characters. They can easily do it in five seconds of time. It's an answer to anyone who doubts that they can care about the strangers we meet in ME3.

Oh, you will care. And you'll forget all about your old teammates, too. Just you wait.


Chicks dig a british accent, Bioware. We also dig a sniper. You should have figured this out by now, but nooooooo-ooooooooooooooo.


Him and Kal'Reegar both...Apparently "a brave soldier in distress" is a popular trope among us.


Also, Kal'Reegar is Jayne.

Jayne is awesome.

#131
NoSoyBueno

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Imagine if in every single episode of 'Band of Brothers' there were entirely new people. Would it feel like a 'band of brothers' in that case?

Imagine if in each successive Lord of the Rings film, Frodo's friend Sam was cast aside in favor of some new guy. Would it feel like they had returned to the Shire with a cemented friendship after the catastrophic events?

Imagine if in the Empire Strikes Back, Luke had entirely new friends to replace Han, Leia, Chewbacca, and the droids. Would we feel suspense about their capture and imprisonment at Bespin?

In all of these cases, they could have died at any moment - that was why the bond was so significant. Bioware is not a one-trick pony. They can do more than just introduce new characters.

-NSB

#132
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NoSoyBueno wrote...

Imagine if in every single episode of 'Band of Brothers' there were entirely new people. Would it feel like a 'band of brothers' in that case?

Imagine if in each successive Lord of the Rings film, Frodo's friend Sam was cast aside in favor of some new guy. Would it feel like they had returned to the Shire with a cemented friendship after the catastrophic events?

Imagine if in the Empire Strikes Back, Luke had entirely new friends to replace Han, Leia, Chewbacca, and the droids. Would we feel suspense about their capture and imprisonment at Bespin?

In all of these cases, they could have died at any moment - that was why the bond was so significant. Bioware is not a one-trick pony. They can do more than just introduce new characters.

-NSB


Makes sense. In this case, I want better dialogue.

#133
NoSoyBueno

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laecraft wrote...
I want better dialogue.

I do, too.

-NSB

#134
thatguy212

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One thing that would be cool for one of the new characters is if they already knew shepard, like have them be a N7 that was there when shepard was doing the training, it would let the player learn more about shepard's past and the N7, as well as have a new character that wouldn't just be some random person joining shepard

#135
Lunatic LK47

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NoSoyBueno wrote...

Imagine if in every single episode of 'Band of Brothers' there were entirely new people. Would it feel like a 'band of brothers' in that case?

Imagine if in each successive Lord of the Rings film, Frodo's friend Sam was cast aside in favor of some new guy. Would it feel like they had returned to the Shire with a cemented friendship after the catastrophic events?

Imagine if in the Empire Strikes Back, Luke had entirely new friends to replace Han, Leia, Chewbacca, and the droids. Would we feel suspense about their capture and imprisonment at Bespin?

In all of these cases, they could have died at any moment - that was why the bond was so significant. Bioware is not a one-trick pony. They can do more than just introduce new characters.

-NSB


Let's add in 24 while we're at it. Season 4 tried to dump an entire new cast into the mix, but no one bothered watching the Season up to the point they got the mainstays from the first three Seasons just to inject interest back into the show (i.e. Dennis Haysbert, Carlos Bernard, and Reiko Aylesworth.)

#136
CulturalGeekGirl

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Imagine if, at the end of every season of Black Adder, all the characters died, to be replaced by an entirely new cast of characters in a different historical era!

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 27 avril 2011 - 02:33 .


#137
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crimzontearz wrote...

Liara, Mordin, Legion, Tali, Garrus, Wrex

everyone else can go away thanks

I like you.

#138
TheOtherTheoG

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Arcian wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

Liara, Mordin, Legion, Tali, Garrus, Wrex

everyone else can go away thanks

I like you.

So do I. In a perfect world, they would be the only squadmembers, and everyone else would either be temporary or just make cameos.