66 réponses à ce sujet

[Aluvious]

Bartrand could have just been a greedy backstabber and Meredith could have been a true extremist with good intentions without the idol and the events in the end would have been far less preposturous. You support Meredith all the way, she reveals her backstory to you, you side with her in the finale and she backstabs you just because she was carrying the sword of crazyness?

[Elhanan]

Perhaps. But her getting placed in a self-made corrupted lyrium facial makes it rather enjoyable for me. Almost makes me thing of Han Solo on ice....

[thesuperdarkone]

But then how would we have a sort of superpowered boss fight instead of just a regular tank and spank boss.

[Woodstock-TC]

i also have my problems of disbelief with the idol and its reaction on normal humans. apparently its possessed somehow though as merediths dead statue apparently reveals the true reaver eh deamon behind..



unfortunately it reminded me during the fight so much of MEs motovational that i wondered if there are no NEW ideas (dont really mind, it was rather a funny "coincidence") so my first end-game became a rather funny turn as i was in LMAO-mode, so to speak. (ok far less than in ME2, where that uber-glowing red-lights-baby appeared)

Modifié par Woodstock-TC, 26 avril 2011 - 07:32 .

[TJPags]

Would have made more sense, yes.

But without the idol, Meredith looks more "reasonable", and less like a lunatic. The idol is the reason for her descent into obsession bordering on madness. The conflict is less grey without it.

So, basically, the idol is silly, IMO, but it seems it was needed to give the ending they wanted.

[Plaintiff]

You forgot the part where it gives her superpowers.

Meredith without the idol is just a crazed cat lady in heavy armor. She'd go down in one punch, and that would be lame.

I also suspect that the freaky new kind of lyrium is going to be important in future installments. It's only just been discovered in DA2 so the whys and hows of it are still all up in the air. I'll concede that it was a 'cheap' plot device if it turns out they don't actually plan to go anywhere with it.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 26 avril 2011 - 02:37 .

[Cutlass Jack]

Aluvious wrote...

Bartrand could have just been a greedy backstabber and Meredith could have been a true extremist with good intentions without the idol and the events in the end would have been far less preposturous. You support Meredith all the way, she reveals her backstory to you, you side with her in the finale and she backstabs you just because she was carrying the sword of crazyness?

Pfft. It worked just fine with Meredith. She was always obsessed. The Idol just made her moreso. And more powerful. Would have been a pretty short fight without it.

Orsinio on the other hand could have used an excuse like the Idol to explain why he acted like an idiot.

[LobselVith8]

Have a final conflict that dealt with the humanity of the characters, had Hawke pro-active, had the story explore both sides of the debate maturely, and didn't force an artifical conflict where Orsino become the GoA Harvester (because DA2 apparently didn't recycle enough things in their sequel) and Meredith became a Super-Saiyan armed with a Super Macguffin?

The smartest thing that Hawke did at the end of DA2 was get the frak out of Kirkwall...

[TJPags]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Have a final conflict that dealt with the humanity of the characters, had Hawke pro-active, had the story explore both sides of the debate maturely, and didn't force an artifical conflict where Orsino become the GoA Harvester (because DA2 apparently didn't recycle enough things in their sequel) and Meredith became a Super-Saiyan armed with a Super Macguffin?

The smartest thing that Hawke did at the end of DA2 was get the frak out of Kirkwall...

Holy crap, Lob . . .we agree on something!! 

[Woodstock-TC]

LobselVith8 wrote...
The smartest thing that Hawke did at the end of DA2 was get the frak out of Kirkwall...

100% agree

Modifié par Woodstock-TC, 26 avril 2011 - 02:44 .

[LobselVith8]

TJPags wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Have a final conflict that dealt with the humanity of the characters, had Hawke pro-active, had the story explore both sides of the debate maturely, and didn't force an artifical conflict where Orsino become the GoA Harvester (because DA2 apparently didn't recycle enough things in their sequel) and Meredith became a Super-Saiyan armed with a Super Macguffin?

The smartest thing that Hawke did at the end of DA2 was get the frak out of Kirkwall...

Holy crap, Lob . . .we agree on something!! 

And thus is the story of how the universe imploded...

[jds1bio]

@Woodstock-TC: ME2's final boss was much worse from a videogame standpoint.

But back on-topic - A recent interview with Portal 2's writer mentions *possible spoiler for that game*






that they specifically avoided fighting two final opponents, as they felt that the player should feel like they have beaten the final opponent by that point in the game anyways.




*end possible spoiler*

Would having fought either Meredith or Orsino, and then the other realizing that their side in the conflict was just as beat, been just as dramatically effective, or more so? Or perhaps having a variation in the sequence so that the catalyst for sparking the endgame wasn't always Anders. Maybe it could have been one out of a few possibilities (Anders, idol, your sibling, Merrill, etc.) depending on what you did during the game. Then however Meredith or Orsino reacts may seem more plausible to fit the situation, but that would make Hawke at least partly responsible for the ending, which is what we were led to believe at the beginning of the tale.

Modifié par jds1bio, 26 avril 2011 - 04:28 .

[Maria Caliban]

Aluvious wrote...

Bartrand could have just been a greedy backstabber and Meredith could have been a true extremist with good intentions without the idol and the events in the end would have been far less preposturous. You support Meredith all the way, she reveals her backstory to you, you side with her in the finale and she backstabs you just because she was carrying the sword of crazyness?

I agree.

I think the story would have been better if:
1) Orsino and Meredith had a bit more development.
2) They had made it clear that while the sword gave her superpowers and corrupted her, it couldn't make someone pants-on-head crazy. It needs to be something a 'good' or strong-minded person could resist.

[Satyricon331]

Aluvious wrote...
Bartrand could have just been a greedy backstabber and Meredith could have been a true extremist with good intentions without the idol and the events in the end would have been far less preposturous. You support Meredith all the way, she reveals her backstory to you, you side with her in the finale and she backstabs you just because she was carrying the sword of crazyness?

I agree re: Meredith.  Especially since it would have spared us those ludicrous fighting statues!

Was the idol really the explanation for Bartrand's betraying you, though?  (not a rhetorical question)  The Idol would be acting on him much faster than it would on Varric... and iirc B's dialogue when you capture him suggests there was a bit of a time lag (edit: before it took him completely), although I might just not be remembering it correctly.  

Modifié par Satyricon331, 26 avril 2011 - 07:26 .

[Ulicus]

They should have elaborated a bit more upon the stuff about the veil being ridiculously thin around Kirkwall. The place was the Thedas equivalent of a Hellmouth... but it was only revealed through those "Band of Three" codex entries.

Modifié par Ulicus, 26 avril 2011 - 10:56 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Agreed.

But if the idol absolutely had to be there, then it required:
- hints to make it a real mystery. Total ignorance of something does not attract interest. Instead of having a useless ethereal golem as an anti-climatic mini-boss, have Varric's quest reveal more about the idol and its origins / nature.

- Have the idol be subtle in its effects. Making Bartrand greedier, and not a total psychopath. With Meredith, make her more zealous and narrow-minded in her beliefs. Increase her paranoia.

- Develop Meredith's character so not only can we care about her as a character, but also see the subtle effects of the idol on her. For example, in Act 1, she can offer more pragmatic and realistic arguments to justify her position. Then she starts being more and more religious in her rhetoric. Then finally have her invoke the name of the Maker way more often as if they are in direct correspondence. Details like that make character and progression. something the game sorely lacked.

- Remove the idea of a corrupting sword completely (and all the effects that go with it). Have it as an amulet instead.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 26 avril 2011 - 10:37 .

[Louis deGuerre]

That was a pretty terrible deus ex machina. KnightofPhoenix sums it up nicely.
Might as well have used Sauron's ring, would probably have improved the plot.
My Precious !!!

[TJPags]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Agreed.

But if the idol absolutely had to be there, then it required:
- hints to make it a real mystery. Total ignorance of something does not attract interest. Instead of having a useless ethereal golem as an anti-climatic mini-boss, have Varric's quest reveal more about the idol and its origins / nature.

- Have the idol be subtle in its effects. Making Bartrand greedier, and not a total psychopath. With Meredith, make her more zealous and narrow-minded in her beliefs. Increase her paranoia.

- Develop Meredith's character so not only can we care about her as a character, but also see the subtle effects of the idol on her. For example, in Act 1, she can offer more pragmatic and realistic arguments to justify her position. Then she starts being more and more religious in her rhetoric. Then finally have her invoke the name of the Maker way more often as if they are in direct correspondence. Details like that make character and progression. something the game sorely lacked.

- Remove the idea of a corrupting sword completely (and all the effects that go with it). Have it as an amulet instead.

All good, smart ideas.

Unfortunately, this is DA2.  DA2 explains nothing, does not understand subtlety, and doesn't have time for character development. 

[Ulicus]

Louis deGuerre wrote...

That was a pretty terrible deus ex machina. KnightofPhoenix sums it up nicely. Might as well have used Sauron's ring, would probably have improved the plot. My Precious !!!

It wasn't a deus ex machina. You can argue it was lame.... but it was not a deus ex machina.

EDIT:
Uh. Unless that's what you MEANT by it being a terrible deus ex machina, of course.

Modifié par Ulicus, 26 avril 2011 - 11:32 .

[noxsachi]

While the whole red lyrium and primeval thaig were very interesting, it did cheapen the finale by making Meredith loony. I'd have much preferred if she ordered the Annulment with full control of her faculties and I say this as someone who sides with the templars every time.

Would make the so called templar rebellion make more sense in my eyes as well. I always read it as those who wanted to keep the current circles kept with the chantry, while since Meredith came off as a religious nutso some factions of templar wanted to break with the chantry so they would just be mage police, hence the rebellion between them. And if Meredith wasn't crazy that would make sense. I totally don't buy Ian Polaris's argument that they broke off from the chantry to be more oppressive to mages. Its not like they needed more permission for that under the current system anyway...

[Rifneno]

noxsachi wrote...

While the whole red lyrium and primeval thaig were very interesting, it did cheapen the finale by making Meredith loony. I'd have much preferred if she ordered the Annulment with full control of her faculties and I say this as someone who sides with the templars every time.

Would make the so called templar rebellion make more sense in my eyes as well. I always read it as those who wanted to keep the current circles kept with the chantry, while since Meredith came off as a religious nutso some factions of templar wanted to break with the chantry so they would just be mage police, hence the rebellion between them. And if Meredith wasn't crazy that would make sense. I totally don't buy Ian Polaris's argument that they broke off from the chantry to be more oppressive to mages. Its not like they needed more permission for that under the current system anyway...

However people don't know what really happened in the Gallows that day.  Cassandra seems shocked that Meredith acted as she did.  We don't really know what stories were told about the Kirkwall Annulment but it's pretty clear that the fact Meredith was nuts didn't get told much if at all.  The only ones who knew what that idol was and would do to her were Hawke's group.  The only one of them that's a big talker is Varric, and I don't think he wanted his brother's story well known.  The surviving mages were already on the run when Meredith's lyrium crazyblade was revealed so they didn't know that aspect of the story, and I doubt the templars were anxious to report in "so yeah, we followed the order of Annulment from our KC... but funny story, turns out she'd been driven insane by an ancient evil we still don't understand.  ...  Nothing?  I guess you had to be there."  That is, if they even did know what the lyrium idol reveal meant.

As for the more oppressive bit, you have to remember that we're seeing it in Kirkwall.  Grand Cleric Donothing was turning a blind eye to the templars crimes because "the Maker will fix it when he wants."  Templars working under a grand cleric who actually understands their responsibility wouldn't get away with the same stuff.

[Sussurus]

Honestly to me the end fights were the major thorn in my paw about the game.
I'm anti boss generally, anti uber boss specifically.
Over all can not fathom how or why M and O were granted god like powers other than "difficulty," and "action."

I can see an archdaemon being on that scale, given the lore and entire plot leading you to realise how powerful it is.
Not however an idol possession that was drastically over the top from Bartrands or blood magic ritual both used at a whim.
M basically went from a scary hardened fighter, turned as dangerous as a pcp user in full meltdown.
To a comical super gran with powers that oddly contradict every piece of lore up to the event held in two games.

The two fights really should have been given a skip fuction based in dialogue / cutscene.
Or at best not drop the mcguffins last minute with little backing them up.

Modifié par Sussurus, 27 avril 2011 - 02:01 .

[Ulicus]

Rifneno wrote...

noxsachi wrote...

While the whole red lyrium and primeval thaig were very interesting, it did cheapen the finale by making Meredith loony. I'd have much preferred if she ordered the Annulment with full control of her faculties and I say this as someone who sides with the templars every time.

Would make the so called templar rebellion make more sense in my eyes as well. I always read it as those who wanted to keep the current circles kept with the chantry, while since Meredith came off as a religious nutso some factions of templar wanted to break with the chantry so they would just be mage police, hence the rebellion between them. And if Meredith wasn't crazy that would make sense. I totally don't buy Ian Polaris's argument that they broke off from the chantry to be more oppressive to mages. Its not like they needed more permission for that under the current system anyway...

However people don't know what really happened in the Gallows that day.  Cassandra seems shocked that Meredith acted as she did.  We don't really know what stories were told about the Kirkwall Annulment but it's pretty clear that the fact Meredith was nuts didn't get told much if at all.  The only ones who knew what that idol was and would do to her were Hawke's group.  The only one of them that's a big talker is Varric, and I don't think he wanted his brother's story well known.  The surviving mages were already on the run when Meredith's lyrium crazyblade was revealed so they didn't know that aspect of the story, and I doubt the templars were anxious to report in "so yeah, we followed the order of Annulment from our KC... but funny story, turns out she'd been driven insane by an ancient evil we still don't understand.  ...  Nothing?  I guess you had to be there."  That is, if they even did know what the lyrium idol reveal meant.

That said, Cassandra seems to know about the idol. IIRC, doesn't she have that whole bit where she says Hawke wanted to cause sedition amongst the Chantry and went into the Deep Roads *looking* for the idol? 

I can't think why that would be important to her unless she was assuming he'd used it to warp Meredith's mind on purpose, or something.

Or maybe she thought Anders blew up the chantry with it. (Which would have been a pretty good use for it, storywise)

[Cismontane]

I agree. I found Meredith's actions to be perfectly logical until he very end - when she turns on Hawke and starts acting like a Mexican jumping bean... Diabolical and unpleasant, but logical. She behaved no worse than scores of real life zealots and paranoid security officials in positions of authority. in fact, she's a heck of a lot nicer than people like Torquemada and other real life Catholic inquisitors from late Medeival/early Modern history. They didn't need the idol as a device to justify her politically hardline behavior. And we all could've done without her jumping around and animating sculpture at the end ... Hehe.

[Rifneno]

Ulicus wrote...
That said, Cassandra seems to know about the idol. IIRC, doesn't she have that whole bit where she says Hawke wanted to cause sedition amongst the Chantry and went into the Deep Roads *looking* for the idol? 

I can't think why that would be important to her unless she was assuming he'd used it to warp Meredith's mind on purpose, or something.

Or maybe she thought Anders blew up the chantry with it. (Which would have been a pretty good use for it, storywise)

You know, that exchange still has me wondering if there's something we don't know.  Meredith clearly didn't know about Bartrand other than that Varric was BSing with the Rambo scene.  She also didn't know Meredith did anything wrong.  So did she know about the idol at all?  And if not, then what did she mean the champion must've known what was down there?