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[Greta13]

Plaintiff wrote...

You forgot the part where it gives her superpowers.

Meredith without the idol is just a crazed cat lady in heavy armor. She'd go down in one punch, and that would be lame.

I also suspect that the freaky new kind of lyrium is going to be important in future installments. It's only just been discovered in DA2 so the whys and hows of it are still all up in the air. I'll concede that it was a 'cheap' plot device if it turns out they don't actually plan to go anywhere with it.

Wait, since Ander's is also a crazed cat abomination does that mean...? I KNEW IT!! I KNEW IT!!! ANDERS IS JUST A SPURNED LOVER GETTING REVENGE!!! 

[Sherbet Lemon]

Ulicus wrote...

I can't think why that would be important to her unless she was assuming he'd used it to warp Meredith's mind on purpose, or something.

Well, considering what Meredith turns into at the endgame...

It was always my interpretation that the Seekers thought the Champion premeditated everything.  It seemed to me that she was implying that Champion brought the idol of the Deep Roads expressly with the intent to wreak havoc.

That being said, I can see how the idol is problematic.  I am hopeful that we will learn more about it as I feel that part of the picture is incomplete so we can't really determine what the true effect is just yet.  I'm still not sure, how much influence the idol ultimately had over Meredith's behavior.  I don't know if that sounds silly or not, I just feel like the whole Primeval Thaig business is far from over.

I'm secretly hoping for DLC...?

[Patriciachr34]

Village Idiot wrote...

Ulicus wrote...

I can't think why that would be important to her unless she was assuming he'd used it to warp Meredith's mind on purpose, or something.

Well, considering what Meredith turns into at the endgame...

It was always my interpretation that the Seekers thought the Champion premeditated everything.  It seemed to me that she was implying that Champion brought the idol of the Deep Roads expressly with the intent to wreak havoc.

That being said, I can see how the idol is problematic.  I am hopeful that we will learn more about it as I feel that part of the picture is incomplete so we can't really determine what the true effect is just yet.  I'm still not sure, how much influence the idol ultimately had over Meredith's behavior.  I don't know if that sounds silly or not, I just feel like the whole Primeval Thaig business is far from over.

I'm secretly hoping for DLC...?

I really think the idol is just the tip if ther iceberg, an introduction if you will. I get the impression that lyrium is more potent and pivotal to magic of Thedas than what we've seen so far.  I would love some DLC to help us undertand this better. (hint, hint).

[uanime5]

The problem I found with the story was that you had no fight Meredith and Orsino no matter what you did or how many times you sides with either of them. If would have been much better if you picked one side and fought the other, rather than having to fight both sides.

[Sussurus]

This time today I just wished the two blasted bosses would go postal on each other.

Honestly Aveline gives you an out, the entire city is getting destroyed and you spend the time waiting for two parties to prepare for their slaughter in a section that no civilians live on.

Champion of Kirkwall my toned butt, champion of crazy lady or manipulative mage lord.

Modifié par Sussurus, 27 avril 2011 - 09:53 .

[Shacary]

Im thinking the Idol thing was presented as a precursor to Da3, that it may be important to the principles of the war i.e. old gods something... perhaps thedas will be threatened by the original owners of that idol/ thaig.... Idk otherwise its a bit of a copt out, but it was effective even the same.... I dont know if that could be blamed for Kirkwalls insanity in totality or not... interesting to consider that as well [ i.e. bloodmages etc]

[Rifneno]

Sussurus wrote...

This time today I just wished the two blasted bosses would go postal on each other.

Honestly Aveline gives you an out, the entire city is getting destroyed and you spend the time waiting for two parties to prepare for their slaughter in a section that no civilians live on.

Champion of Kirkwall my toned butt, champion of crazy lady or manipulative mage lord.

I don't believe the bolded part.  If Aveline says that, she's exaggerating, likely very much so.  She's a bit... slow, IMO.  Why would there be heavy fighting anywhere but the Gallows?  Even the First Enchanter is afraid to leave the Gallows for fear of being accused of involvement in a rebellion.  Likely almost any mage out of the Gallows at that point in time is out illegally and would be attack by templars that recognized them as a mage regardless of the RoA.  The vast majority of both forces are in the Gallows and that's where any heavy fighting will be.  I suspect the only reason we have to fight anything on the way to the Gallows is for gameplay reasons and not lore.  Even if the priority is to protect civilians, Hawke would be a fool not to pick the lesser evil and take the fight to the source.  Either the templars who are all but forcibly taking control of the city and are known to be extremists that try to control their populace with terror and brutality, or the mages who have otherworldly powers that demons are apparently constantly usurping to wreck wanton destruction.  Either way Hawke is best to go to the Gallows and put the fire out before it spreads to an inferno that engulfs the city.

[Sussurus]

I may have exagerated somewhat, not a huge lot though, the veil had pretty much torn.
Every street was full of demons including Pride, bloodmages and templars cutting each other down.

She made mention that the side streets were about the only places her guards were holding.
That if you call them to aid you against the circle, it would "open the floodgates."

Varric and Hawke comment on the hanged man being destroyed.
Kirkwall was being torn apart in the cross fire, Meredith and Orsino were fixated on each other / the circle not the city.
However Orsino had little control over any mages, even circle ones.

Modifié par Sussurus, 27 avril 2011 - 10:17 .

[Louis deGuerre]

Ulicus wrote...

Louis deGuerre wrote...

That was a pretty terrible deus ex machina. KnightofPhoenix sums it up nicely. Might as well have used Sauron's ring, would probably have improved the plot. My Precious !!!

It wasn't a deus ex machina. You can argue it was lame.... but it was not a deus ex machina.

EDIT:
Uh. Unless that's what you MEANT by it being a terrible deus ex machina, of course.

After some reading I see your objection. I always saw a 'deus ex machina' as a 'and then a miracle happens' plot device but there are more narrowly defined categories.

I looked into this some more this afternoon and not sure which category would be best...some sort of Mac Guffin ? An Artifact of Doom ? A Diabolus Ex Machina ? Or another kind of Plot Hole or Plot Device ?

I quess it acts as an Artifact of Doom in act 1 and 2, and as a Diabolus Ex Machina in the final act when it suddenly 'transformed' into a sword

[TOBY FLENDERSON]

TJPags Meredith doesn't have to look like a lunatic and Orsino doesn't have to go all harvester to get a good story. Are you really suggesting that having the final decision be a very difficult one hurts the story?

[TJPags]

TOBY FLENDERSON wrote...

TJPags Meredith doesn't have to look like a lunatic and Orsino doesn't have to go all harvester to get a good story. Are you really suggesting that having the final decision be a very difficult one hurts the story?

Huh?  I wasn't trying to say that at all.

No, Meredith does not need to be a lunatic to make a good story.  The story, IMO, is better if she is NOT a lunatic.

And Orsino - well, his Harvester thing makes no sense to just about anyone.

Tough choices are good.  I like them.  But hell, even I - as anti Kirkwall mage as you can probably find - sided with the mages because she was a NUT.

Was the decision all that much better as they did it?  No, I don't think so at all.  I think the decision becomes MUCH harder if Meredith isn't acting like a lunatic.  If she's acting reasonable I think it's a tougher decision.

Her Lyrium madness makes her hell bent for Anullment at all costs, even to the point of letting the real culprit in the crime go free.  Without that, if she had actually sentenced Anders, and THEN turned to the Circle with a LOGICAL reason, I think it becomes a tougher choice to make.

[Pandaman102]

If Meredith didn't have the lyrium idol she wouldn't have just been an armored lady with a big sword.

She would have been an armored lady with a big sword and a small, well-equipped, well-trained army by her side (recall that she lost the loyalty of the Templars when she started frothing at the mouth and accusing everyone of subversion while waving a glowing demonic sword at them). Of course the battle would have been easier, but that would be the shortcomings of the AI, not the setup of the battle alone.

Modifié par Pandaman102, 28 avril 2011 - 02:14 .

[Cismontane]

Pandaman,
I don't know. Throw large wave after large wave of high spec templars at the player, and how easy would it have been? Or the same in terms of mages, if you picked the other alternative? They could've done a boss fight with large numbers instead of two big monsters.

[TJPags]

Cismontane wrote...

Pandaman,
I don't know. Throw large wave after large wave of high spec templars at the player, and how easy would it have been? Or the same in terms of mages, if you picked the other alternative? They could've done a boss fight with large numbers instead of two big monsters.

That's certainly how they handled the rest of the game - wave after wave of easy enemies.  Numbers over skill.  Quantity over quality.

But obviously, they wanted two big boss fights - one more "epic" then the next.  So Meredith needed to be, not just a difficult fight like, say, Branka or Jarvia- a simply enemy who was just very tough to kill - but AWESOME.

Assuming, of course, levitation and fire breathing statues = awesome.

[mhendon]

The craziness made Meredith completely unsympathetic to the point that it seems utterly moronic to side with the Templars. She wants to kill EVERY mage in Kirkwall because Anders, who is not from the Circle and is standing right there ready to be punished blew up a building. Even if you believe mages need to be controlled siding with a crazy lady is not exactly an intelligent decision. So yes, I really think the last act would have been better without the idol, or at least, without the craziness. The way the last two bosses were implemented felt cheap.

[Pandaman102]

Cismontane wrote...

Pandaman,
I don't know. Throw large wave after large wave of high spec templars at the player, and how easy would it have been? Or the same in terms of mages, if you picked the other alternative? They could've done a boss fight with large numbers instead of two big monsters.

That might have been feasible had they not already done the whole "wave after wave" thing to death throughout the whole rest of the game, but as it is that would have just become yet another tedious wave battle. The devs basically dug themselves into a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation.

[Aluvious]

Plaintiff wrote...

You forgot the part where it gives her superpowers.

Meredith without the idol is just a crazed cat lady in heavy armor. She'd go down in one punch, and that would be lame.

I also suspect that the freaky new kind of lyrium is going to be important in future installments. It's only just been discovered in DA2 so the whys and hows of it are still all up in the air. I'll concede that it was a 'cheap' plot device if it turns out they don't actually plan to go anywhere with it.

You forget that Ser Cauthrien was also a cat lady in heavy armor and put up a far greater battle than Meredith.

[TEWR]

Holy necroposting Batman!

Aluvious wrote...

Bartrand could have just been a greedy backstabber and Meredith could have been a true extremist with good intentions without the idol and the events in the end would have been far less preposturous. You support Meredith all the way, she reveals her backstory to you, you side with her in the finale and she backstabs you just because she was carrying the sword of crazyness?

I disagree. While I find its implementation shoddy at best, I find that the message it tries to convey for Meredith is very well done. I find that had it been implemented properly -- okay, in truth how I would've done it  -- it could've added to the moral complexity.

This is ignoring my pro-mage views. I'm speaking purely from a writer's perspective, which is why I feel it was needed.

The message it tries to convey is that Meredith was corrupted by power in both the literal and figurative sense, or so I understood it. The Idol, for her, is pure power.

Which makes sense. She feels that in order to do her job, she must be powerful against any that stand against her. Perhaps that's what led her to buy it? I can't say.

Bartrand wanted enough coin to make it out of the Merchant's Guild for the rest of his life and the idol ended up making him fall prey to his greed. Varric wanted to use the shard to save his brother, and damn near fell into the same state of mind as his brother and Meredith.

So whatever the idol was, it seemed to prey off of what the people holding it wanted more then anything.

Its implementation is extremely bad since it's done in such a way that it ultimately explains everything that happened in Act III -- made worse by the fact that the Mages are innocent of Anders' crime -- but the idea itself isn't so bad, had it been done well.

Plus, I like how she makes Golems with it.

Wasn't a fan of the 70 foot jump though, nor was I a fan of Orsino's breakdown mode into Harvestino for pro-mage people. Those two things were unnecessary IMO.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 18 mai 2012 - 07:48 .

[LolaLei]

The lyrium idol did seem a little... odd. Maybe they have something big planned in DA3 with the red lyrium and the Mage/Templar conflict/the veil tearing and that's why it was introduced the way it was in DA2?

[TEWR]

Filament wrote...

I'm starting to think it's a little exaggerated the extent to which Meredith simply "goes insane" as a result of the idol. I wouldn't say she was characterized sufficiently, or that the idol was explained enough, but inasmuch as she was characterized, her increasing paranoia leading her to the point at the end is consistent with her character arc. The idol just provided the power for her to defy the rest of her order when even they thought she was too extreme.

So I would say my main issue with that scene is more how it looks and sounds... specifically, the lightsaber sound effects and that jump. I don't know why that jump bothers me so much. But the rest I think I'd have been OK with.

Thing is, her devolvement happens in Act II. She had always been a ruthless, paranoid, hate-filled **** but her devolvement really begins to happen in Act II.

And you can tie that devolvement back to the idol as a result, since that's when she acquired it from Bartrand and we know that when broken it's far more potent then when it's intact -- to the point that anyone touching it is immediately affected by it.

So it's not exaggerated how the idol drove her madness.

[Aluvious]

Fair enough, but I don't think we needed a red eyed mad woman jumping 50 feet in the air while turning statues into impossibly flexible and complex machinery.

I understand that they were trying to create a flashy climactic final battle, but she was a complete joke to fight even on Nightmare difficulty. She attacks only seldom often and spends half of the fight taking a sword to the face. Whereas Ser Cauthrien, another greatsword wielding elite boss, could take away half your health in a single hit.

Okay, what I'm saying is that you don't need shouty super powers to create a formidable enemy.