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Will Spectre re-instatment effect the trial in ME3?


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#76
Dean_the_Young

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Zulu_DFA wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Spectres don't need to have been convicted to lose their status.

And your precident is? Shepard lost his on presumption of death and a 2 year MIA (although he never officially lost it, which is a huge plot hole since noone formally informs him of the loss of status).

That would be one precident. Another is that Saren was never found guilty in any trial: Shepard was sent so that Saren could be brought in to face charges.

But the Council did have a hearing into the matter and even cleared Saren, after giving hem an opportunutiny to speak for himself, the first time Udina came forward with the suit.

And yet a hearing is not a trial, which was the point. Saren didn't have his day in court, and then lose his status: Saren had a preliminary hearing, had his status stripped, and jumped out of town before he could go to court.

Ignore the presumption of 'presumption of innocence' in regards to an alien legal system: by our own legal system Saren wasn't convicted or ever in a courtroom before his status was stirpped.

#77
Moiaussi

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Dean_the_Young wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Spectres don't need to have been convicted to lose their status.


And your precident is? Shepard lost his on presumption of death and a 2 year MIA (although he never officially lost it, which is a huge plot hole since noone formally informs him of the loss of status).

That would be one precident. Another is that Saren was never found guilty in any trial: Shepard was sent so that Saren could be brought in to face charges.


You have a court transcript? Saren was found guilty in absentia. He missed his court date.

Tali's evidence is presented as an addendum to the existing trial. The qupte is 'you proved Saren betrayed the Council,' so Saren was formally convicted before being stripped of status. 



Check around 1:52 regarding his conviction. The comment that Saren's status was stripped is around the 2 min mark.

#78
Moiaussi

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Dean_the_Young wrote...

And yet a hearing is not a trial, which was the point. Saren didn't have his day in court, and then lose his status: Saren had a preliminary hearing, had his status stripped, and jumped out of town before he could go to court.

Ignore the presumption of 'presumption of innocence' in regards to an alien legal system: by our own legal system Saren wasn't convicted or ever in a courtroom before his status was stirpped.


Semantics. A hearing is a type of trial. Saren was obviously assumed innocent prior to conviction or the entire tone of the trial would have been different. Saren would have been required to have been physically present rather than attending from whereever by hologram.

#79
Dean_the_Young

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Moiaussi wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

And yet a hearing is not a trial, which was the point. Saren didn't have his day in court, and then lose his status: Saren had a preliminary hearing, had his status stripped, and jumped out of town before he could go to court.

Ignore the presumption of 'presumption of innocence' in regards to an alien legal system: by our own legal system Saren wasn't convicted or ever in a courtroom before his status was stirpped.


Semantics. A hearing is a type of trial. Saren was obviously assumed innocent prior to conviction or the entire tone of the trial would have been different. Saren would have been required to have been physically present rather than attending from whereever by hologram.

It's as much a semantic as distinguishing between raiding and capturing, dying or going into a comma, or any other independing categorization of sub-categories.

A hearing is not a type of trial. A hearing is what you have before the trial to determine if you will have a trial at all!

#80
Dean_the_Young

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Moiaussi wrote...

You have a court transcript? Saren was found guilty in absentia. He missed his court date.

Not according to Garrus, on the topic of bringing in Saren to face charges versus killing him outright.

Tali's evidence is presented as an addendum to the existing trial. The qupte is 'you proved Saren betrayed the Council,' so Saren was formally convicted before being stripped of status. 



Check around 1:52 regarding his conviction. The comment that Saren's status was stripped is around the 2 min mark.

Moi, you claim to have a formal court transcript now?

#81
Lvl20DM

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Also, as of this point, it's not clear to me that the game starts with Shep on trial. The GI article used the term "inquiry" - the trial stuff is being assumed based a bit on what Hackett said and an early paraphrase of the article. They could be interrogating or questioning Shep while not really knowing what they are ultimately going to do with him.

#82
Moiaussi

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Dean_the_Young wrote...

It's as much a semantic as distinguishing between raiding and capturing, dying or going into a comma, or any other independing categorization of sub-categories.

A hearing is not a type of trial. A hearing is what you have before the trial to determine if you will have a trial at all!


from Miriam-webster:

Hearing:

1
a[/i] :[/b] the process, function, or power of perceiving sound; specifically[/i] :[/b] the special sense by which noises and tones are received as stimuli b[/i] :[/b] earshot

2
a[/i] :[/b] opportunity to be heard, to present one's side of a case, or to be generally known or appreciated

b
[/i](1)[/i] :[/b] a listening to arguments
(2)[/i] :[/b] a preliminary examination in criminal procedure

c[/i] :[/b] a session (as of a legislative committee) in which testimony is taken from witnesses

Trial:


1
a[/i] :[/b] the action or process of trying or putting to the proof :[/b] test
b[/i] :[/b] a preliminary contest (as in a sport)

2
:[/b] the formal examination before a competent tribunal of the matter in issue in a civil or criminal cause in order to determine such issue

In the case of a Spectre, it is reasonable to conclude that there is no conventional court system, since Spectres answer only to the Council with no other legal constraints. Hearing defintions 2(a) and © both apply. So do trial definitions 1(a) and 2.

There is no analogy in our existing court system, so the whole 'pre-trial hearing' definition doesn't apply.

As for a transcript, I presented the evidence as we are given in game. The evidence brought forward by Tali is considered concrete proof and sufficient for conviction. Whether it should be considered sufficient is a different matter. Saren's defence was complete denial, as presented earlier. That may have been held against him in the final decision or they may have contacted him to allow him to refute the new evidence and he failed to do so. We don't know. The 'hearing' was in progress when Shepard arrived.

As for Garrus, he was C-sec, and the concept of apprehending spectres is not somethng that would likely be covered much. It is like asking about the proceedures for aprehending rogue CIA agents, likely not taught to beat cops. As a Spectre, Shepard was definately authorized to use deadly force against Saren.

Modifié par Moiaussi, 26 avril 2011 - 06:04 .


#83
Lekwid

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"ah yes, your spectre status, we have dismissed those claims..."