62 réponses à ce sujet

[Porenferser]

I just reloaded a few of my older saves......
Anyone agrees that large parts of the end are pretty stupid?

The 3 parts I am complanining about:

Orsino, if you sided with the mages: I mean, yes, we are winning, but the casualties we are having drive me into madness...... MUST-GO-POSTAL-NO-MATTER-AGAINST-FRIEND-OR-FOE!

Meredith, if sided with templars: Yeah, you helped as whiping the circle away, but c'mon, you are new to this city, you HAVE to be a conspirator, so DIE!

Cullen, if sided with the mages: What, seriously Meredith? I mean, yeeaaah, the Champion just sided with the Circle and slayed a few hundred of us, but why kill him, thats not nice......C'mon boys, lets turn on Meredith!

Would it have been so hard to let Orsino/Meredith live or to kill Cullen?
Thats just stupid....

Modifié par Porenferser, 27 avril 2011 - 08:33 .

[Wulfram]

You're not really supposed to be winning when you side with Orsino. They just did a poor job of getting this across, and made the preceeding fight stupidly easy which adds to the WTFness.

[highcastle]

Man, I never thought I'd be in the position of defending Orsino, but here we are. To the first point, you're not winning when Orsino does the ritual to transform into a Harvester. There are countless waves of templars waiting outside. Everyone but Orsino and you're own merry band of misfits have been slaughtered. He views it as only a matter of time before the templars break in. Rather than die at their hands, he aims to take as many of them down with him.

I don't believe he knows he won't be able to control this form. Or perhaps he considers it a necessary risk. Orsino's a tough character to read because we don't get to interact with him all that much. He clearly knows more than he seems with his connection to Quentin, but the extent of this knowledge remains debatable.

I can't speak much on your second point because I haven't sided with the templars yet and don't see myself doing so in the future. Honestly, though, this doesn't seem out of character to me. Meredith is unstable and irrational. The whole reason she wants to annul the Circle is based on a logical fallacy. Anders blew up the Chantry, she pointed at a random, unaffiliated group of mages and said, "Let's hold them responsible!" So are you really surprised she'd turn on you just as quickly?

As for Cullen, I'm not really sure what you're asking here. If you take the time to talk to Cullen throughout the various acts, you see a bit of character development there. He begins the game not even thinking mages are human (or elven, I suppose). He believes whole-heartedly in the Circle. You can agree with him, suggest there must be a better way, or insist mages are people too. Either way, by the time the second and third Acts roll around, he's having some doubts. I believe it's in the beginning of the the Third Act where he says he's not sure if he's serving the Order or the Knight-Commander's whims. It's obvious he's not fully comfortable with Meredith yet.

Meanwhile, the Champion is someone who's saved Cullen's life, saved the city, etc. It's really not a surprise Cullen's loyalties would be conflicted. As to why he cannot be killed, aside from the plot itself, I wouldn't be surprised to find him as a future companion or at least another prominent NPC in a subsequent game.

[Kaiser Shepard]

I actually expected this to be a complaint topic about all the LI's being bi...

I guess I should go to bed soon.

[Cutlass Jack]

highcastle wrote...

Man, I never thought I'd be in the position of defending Orsino, but here we are. To the first point, you're not winning when Orsino does the ritual to transform into a Harvester. There are countless waves of templars waiting outside. Everyone but Orsino and you're own merry band of misfits have been slaughtered. He views it as only a matter of time before the templars break in. Rather than die at their hands, he aims to take as many of them down with him. 

This is the guy who singlehandedly faced down a horde of Qunari with nothing more than a bathrobe and a very large stick. Something thats a damn bit scarier and less 'mage friendly' than a wave of Templars. The only thing scarier would be facing the Arhisok in a duel. Something the person at his side did with no problem.

So I'm going to go with him just being an idiot in Act 3. It was pretty indefensible given the combined talent on your side at that point. Not to mention that all the Templars would have to rush them down a corridor not much wider than the Fireballs he casts so well.

[Maladismal]

Thought this was about how your party members automatically betray you in Fenryiel's Dream.

Hell once I ever finished the Merril romance, had sex, confessed our love, had her move in, 100% friendship and THEN did that quest and she still betrayed me.


Oyi.

Where's shepard's Blue Text of Awsome when you need it.

[Cutlass Jack]

Maladismal wrote...

Thought this was about how your party members automatically betray you in Fenryiel's Dream.

Hell once I ever finished the Merril romance, had sex, confessed our love, had her move in, 100% friendship and THEN did that quest and she still betrayed me.

I absolutely loved my party members betraying me in the dream. Especially WittyHawke's responses to it as he admitted he couldn't top the deal being offered. So funny. I was in full romance with Isabela when it happened. It was a perfect romantic comedy moment.

Hawke: "So shall I turn around now and let you stab me in the Back or would you rather it be a complete surprise?"

Isabela: "Oh you're such a sweetheart!"

And made even better by the apology bit afterwards. Part of loving someone is knowing their flaws and caring despite that. My Hawke knew well before the fade that the Sea was something she loved more than even sex. Was hard for me to even get slightly mad about it.

Modifié par Cutlass Jack, 26 avril 2011 - 02:25 .

[Maladismal]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Maladismal wrote...

Thought this was about how your party members automatically betray you in Fenryiel's Dream.

Hell once I ever finished the Merril romance, had sex, confessed our love, had her move in, 100% friendship and THEN did that quest and she still betrayed me.

I absolutely loved my party members betraying me in the dream. Especially WittyHawke's responses to it as he admitted he couldn't top the deal being offered. So funny. I was in full romance with Isabela when it happened. It was a perfect romantic comedy moment.

Hawke: "So shall I turn around now and let you stab me in the Back or would you rather it be a complete surprise?"

Isabela: "Oh you're such a sweetheart!"

And made even better by the apology bit afterwards. Part of loving someone is knowing their flaws and caring despite that. My Hawke knew well before the fade that the Sea was something she loved more than even sex. Was hard for me to even get slightly mad about it.

I agree. I enjoy'd it alot the first time. It's the complete inability to influence it is what annoy'd me. And yes Wittyhawke is so much more entertaining then his 2 counterparts it's criminal.

[Joy Divison]

Hmm, from his post title I had this thought of a giant orgy...

[TheAwesomologist]

highcastle wrote...

Man, I never thought I'd be in the position of defending Orsino, but here we are. To the first point, you're not winning when Orsino does the ritual to transform into a Harvester. There are countless waves of templars waiting outside. Everyone but Orsino and you're own merry band of misfits have been slaughtered. He views it as only a matter of time before the templars break in. Rather than die at their hands, he aims to take as many of them down with him.

I don't believe he knows he won't be able to control this form. Or perhaps he considers it a necessary risk. Orsino's a tough character to read because we don't get to interact with him all that much. He clearly knows more than he seems with his connection to Quentin, but the extent of this knowledge remains debatable.

You know what would have been nice? If they expressed ANY OF THIS IN GAME!
Seriously the fight with the Templars takes about 1 minute. Less if that damn Templar Hunter didn't disappear and you have to wait for him to reappear to end the fight.

They needed Orsino in a different room or something. Hawke reaches Orsino too late to prevent him from turning to blood magic (not that it maters, all the cool kids are doing it. That or red lyrium it seems...).

That and there's barely any acknowledgement of his work with Quentin besides a throw away line.

*facepalm*

[LobselVith8]

Porenferser wrote...

I just reloaded a few of my older saves......
Anyone agrees that large parts end are pretty stupid?

I'd agree with that. I don't see the point in re-using the Harvester from GoA or introducing a Macguffin as the Big Bad when it's never explained and makes no sense with the facts we have (especially when we saw Caridin's golems in the primevil thaig that is supposed to predate Caridin's existance).

Porenferser wrote...

The 3 parts I am complanining about:

Orsino, if you sided with the mages: I mean, yes, we are winning, but the casualties we are having drive me into madness...... MUST-GO-POSTAL-NO-MATTER-AGAINST-FRIEND-OR-FOE!

Orsino needed to be a villain because having him as a good guy would have made the mage ending the "good guy" ending, and David Gaider has gone on record as saying he felt people choose mages "almost by default," which explains Act III.

Porenferser wrote...

Meredith, if sided with templars: Yeah, you helped as whiping the circle away, but c'mon, you are new to this city, you HAVE to be a conspirator, so DIE!

Considering she invoked the Right of Annulment against the Circle because of what Anders did, the conflict seemed artifically forced to me. I think Hawke could have really "rose to power" and had some agency to make conflicts at the end of the storyline interesting.

Porenferser wrote...

Cullen, if sided with the mages: What, seriously Meredith? I mean, yeeaaah, the Champion just sided with the Circle and slayed a few hundred of us, but why kill him, thats not nice......C'mon boys, lets turn on Meredith!

This made no sense to me, and I've pointed out how ludicrious I found the scene, but nobody ever agreed with me. Cullen siding against Meredith if Hawke is killing his way to freedom to protect the mages and apprentices doesn't make any sense, especially when you consider he's killing templars. Given how he takes Bethany to the Gallows and threatens Hawke, it's a shame there's not an option to introduce him to the Murder Knife ™...

Porenferser wrote...

Would it have been so hard to let Orsino/Meredith live or to kill Cullen?
Thats just stupid....

Orsino apparently needed to be an antagonist so that the mage ending wasn't the default "good guy" ending. His villany was artificial and his development almost entirely nonexistent as a result.

[Deztyn]

The endgame actually makes the most sense if you play Mage Hawke siding with the Templars. You can undermine Meredith's authority with the Templars and Cullen supports you. Kill the blood mage Orsino, help clear out the Circle and when Meredith turns on you it's still easy to understand. You're not just the Champion of Kirkwall, you're a free apostate with too much influence. Of course she'd want you dead. Cullen is nobler, he'd be willing to go along with arresting you, but murder is crossing the line.

[Rifneno]

I still contend that the best way to handle Orsino and Meredith is if it ended in a three-way battle rather than two direct battles.

[Curry Noodles]

A three way battle would have been so awesome. They could have shared one health bar or something, and instead of meredith babbling to herself after paralyzing you she could be fighting orsino.

Or even better, the person you sided with is your ally in that fight, and at the end they kill each other.

[Pandaman102]

That would have been a rather devilish EvilHawke ending.

*side with Templars*
*Meredith and Hawke fight Orsino*
Meredith: "And... the deed is done."
Hawke: "Not quite yet."
Meredith: "Wha-URK!"

Cassandra: "Hawke did WHAT?"
Varric: "What can I say? Hawke was an ass."

[Cyaxares]

I first played "diplomatic" Hawke, and what i did not liked the most, is through whole game it gives you an illusion that you have "good", peaceful option, and by siding with Grand Cleric Elthina you can reconcile mages and templars. And then Anders killed her and forced Hawke to choose, with no option to make peace.

At first i thought it was a result of doing "Justice" quest, I thought wow, this is the best RPG ever, that even small decisions affect outcome so much. But then i replayed it, and found that your decisions have no effect, and there no peaceful option no matter what. It was really disappointing. I understand why they did it, to make manageable transition to dragon age 3, but still they really hurt this game. The created this really great concept of traveling through time, instead of usual 4 places, not connected to each other, but did not used its advantages at all. This game could have been revolutionary step in RPGs, if Hawke decisions in the past, would change how everything plays out in next period, like different quests become available, NPCs do something different in quests, etc.

Modifié par sbarchak, 27 avril 2011 - 09:01 .

[Maladismal]

sbarchak wrote...

I first played "diplomatic" Hawke, and what i did not liked the most, is through whole game it gives you an illusion that you have "good", peaceful option, and by siding with Grand Cleric Elthina you can reconcile mages and templars. And then Anders killed her and forced Hawke to choose, with no option to make peace.

At first i thought it was a result of doing "Justice" quest, I thought wow, this is the best RPG ever, that even small decisions affect outcome so much. But then i replayed it, and found that your decisions have no effect, and there no peaceful option no matter what. It was really disappointing. I understand why they did it, to make manageable transition to dragon age 3, but still they really hurt this game. The created this really great concept of traveling through time, instead of usual 4 places, not connected to each other, but did not used its advantages at all. This game could have been revolutionary step in RPGs, if Hawke decisions in the past, would change how everything plays out in next period, like different quests become available, NPCs do something different in quests, etc.

Thats been the general consensus.

Exceptional Idea.

WTF worthy execution.

It's still a good game, but in light of the above and when compared to DA:O and to a degree ME2....DA2 just feels bad inspite of itself.

[Cyaxares]

Exactly Maladismal , Dragon age II can be recommended for anybody who loves a good story, but, as a game, it is not a masterpiece, like people may expect from Bioware.
Personally I liked its story concept of security-vs-freedom, more than Origins epic hero-vs-great evil horde, but in Origins you had a choice that had an affect on outcome. Here everything is decided for you.
How great it would be if your decisions could affect Kirkwall? For example if Hawke is pro-templar, city becomes safer from mages, but more dictatorial, and quests would be affected by it, for example it would give Hawke the option to save his mother, but his sister would be affected for the worse, etc..

[Pandaman102]

sbarchak wrote...

Personally I liked its story concept of security-vs-freedom, more than Origins epic hero-vs-great evil horde, but in Origins you had a choice that had an affect on outcome. Here everything is decided for you.

Before anyone tries to bash you for saying that, I would like to just say it's not so much you have a choice that affects the outcome, but rather you have a choice on what what kind of Ferelden survives the Blight. It's not a plot decision, but it is a world-altering one and people obsessively ignore that to defend DA2's lack of choices.

[Louis deGuerre]

@Rifneno
Damn, now I can't get the idea of a mexican standoff between Hawke, Orsino and Meredith out of my head...

*Draws first*

[Maria Caliban]

We should be able to convince Orsino and Meredith to act in a reasonable and non-murderous manner. If they don't like it, they can just retcon it in DA III!

[Viyu]

Maria Caliban wrote...

We should be able to convince Orsino and Meredith to act in a reasonable and non-murderous manner. If they don't like it, they can just retcon it in DA III!

[LobselVith8]

sbarchak wrote...

I first played "diplomatic" Hawke, and what i did not liked the most, is through whole game it gives you an illusion that you have "good", peaceful option, and by siding with Grand Cleric Elthina you can reconcile mages and templars. And then Anders killed her and forced Hawke to choose, with no option to make peace.

The conflict between the templars and the mages seems forced at the end. Anders isn't a Circle mage, he's a known apostate protected by the Champion's reputation, and it seems like we're being cornered into this for the sole purpose of big boss battles. It loses the humanity of the debate when the First Enchanter turns into a GoA Harvester and the Knight-Commander is possessed by the Soul Calibur sword. Meredith was a Mexican jumping bean for most of it, and we had Cullen siding with Hawke even if he was killing templars left and right to get out of the Gallows.

sbarchak wrote...

At first i thought it was a result of doing "Justice" quest, I thought wow, this is the best RPG ever, that even small decisions affect outcome so much. But then i replayed it, and found that your decisions have no effect, and there no peaceful option no matter what. It was really disappointing. I understand why they did it, to make manageable transition to dragon age 3, but still they really hurt this game. The created this really great concept of traveling through time, instead of usual 4 places, not connected to each other, but did not used its advantages at all. This game could have been revolutionary step in RPGs, if Hawke decisions in the past, would change how everything plays out in next period, like different quests become available, NPCs do something different in quests, etc.

That bothered me, too. I originally thought my particular decisions had an impact on the overall story, and that sparing Grace resulted in "Best Served Cold," but I realized that none of my decisions mattered. Even if I were to say no to a quest, I'm still forced to complete it even if it makes no sense for the protagonist to. I didn't like how the mage and templar debate was dropped for a forced confrontation that had nothing to do with the Circle mages and lead to a battle with Meredith becoming a Super-Saiyan, and all the complexity and humanity that could have been dealt in an issue that's certainly complex but was abandoned for turning the two figurheads of the debate into insane, raving lunatics.

[Greta13]

Louis deGuerre wrote...

@Rifneno
Damn, now I can't get the idea of a mexican standoff between Hawke, Orsino and Meredith out of my head...

*Draws first*

Argh! Same here! They should have had Clint Eastwood voice Orsino...

[Louis deGuerre]

Greta13 wrote...

Louis deGuerre wrote...

@Rifneno
Damn, now I can't get the idea of a mexican standoff between Hawke, Orsino and Meredith out of my head...

*Draws first*

Argh! Same here! They should have had Clint Eastwood voice Orsino...

Anders could stand in for Hawke and act as Blondie

This is what we're talking about for the bewildered