62 réponses à ce sujet

[ChickenDownUnder]

You know, the whole 'everybody trying to backstab each other' would of worked for me if it was done with a bit more... oh hell, there is no nice way to say this, with more smarts. Political maneuvering Dune style, except without the long-windedness and dry toast flavor. And how I'm probably the only one who actually enjoyed reading the entire series on this forum.

Which I suppose defeats the idea of it possibly becoming popular, so nevermind.

[haroldhardluck]

Porenferser wrote...

I just reloaded a few of my older saves......
Anyone agrees that large parts of the end are pretty stupid?

The 3 parts I am complanining about:

Orsino, if you sided with the mages: I mean, yes, we are winning, but the casualties we are having drive me into madness...... MUST-GO-POSTAL-NO-MATTER-AGAINST-FRIEND-OR-FOE!

Meredith, if sided with templars: Yeah, you helped as whiping the circle away, but c'mon, you are new to this city, you HAVE to be a conspirator, so DIE!

Cullen, if sided with the mages: What, seriously Meredith? I mean, yeeaaah, the Champion just sided with the Circle and slayed a few hundred of us, but why kill him, thats not nice......C'mon boys, lets turn on Meredith!

Would it have been so hard to let Orsino/Meredith live or to kill Cullen?
Thats just stupid....

This problem occurs else where in the game. In the kidnapping battle, it makes no sense for Trask to join Grace. He should be on your side or at least neutral or even run away.

What should have been done was to reveal that Orsino has been secretly helping blood mages. It is strongly implied that he helped the murderer of your mother. That is a perfectly logical excuse to kill him even of you sided with the mages. Meredith is insane and needs to be killed no matter which side you chose. What Cullen did was reasonable and lawful once he realizes that Meredith was insane. He tries to lawfully remove her from command and attacking her once she refuses is the correct thing to do.

Harold

[ashez2ashes]

Eh, I kind of wondered if everyone was turning on each other was because Kirkwall is the Thedas equivalent of Sunnydale. The veil is screwed up and makes everyone crazy (and mages extra crazy).

If that's what they were going for though, they didn't do a very good job explaining it.

Modifié par ashez2ashes, 28 avril 2011 - 02:53 .

[Maria Caliban]

ChickenDownUnder wrote...

Political maneuvering Dune style, except without the long-windedness and dry toast flavor.

Dune doesn't taste like dry toast, but spices.

And how I'm probably the only one who actually enjoyed reading the entire series on this forum.

It's one of the most popular science fiction series ever written. Would you go onto a Star Trek forum with thousands of visitors a day and say, 'I'm probably the only person here who's read Lord of the Rings?'

That said, I refuse to read the books written by Brian Herbert and Kevin J Something. The series ends at Chapterhouse for me.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 28 avril 2011 - 04:35 .

[Emergent System]

Comparing DA2 to Dune, though in a negative light, is still an insult to Frank Herbert and every one of his lineage. Yes, even Brian and his atrocious predules and sequels. Well, I didn't really mind some of the preludes, but the sequels, man... the sequels...

Way better than DA2 though.

Way better.

[LobselVith8]

ChickenDownUnder wrote...

You know, the whole 'everybody trying to backstab each other' would of worked for me if it was done with a bit more... oh hell, there is no nice way to say this, with more smarts. Political maneuvering Dune style, except without the long-windedness and dry toast flavor. And how I'm probably the only one who actually enjoyed reading the entire series on this forum.

Which I suppose defeats the idea of it possibly becoming popular, so nevermind.

It could work. The Harrowing is the humanity test, the sword of mercy is the gom jabbar, and the lyrium must flow...

...now all we need is the politics and someone to control the flow of lyrium.

[IoCaster]

Rifneno wrote...

I still contend that the best way to handle Orsino and Meredith is if it ended in a three-way battle rather than two direct battles.

I would have preferred an option to let the two kill each other while I surreptitiously dragged Cullen off to the side and slit his throat. Then take the opportunity to grab Bethany and hitch a ride back to Ferelden with Isabela. 

[Nixter Shepard]

It's moreso poor execution and a black and white decision that just seem irrelevant.

[Cyaxares]

LobselVith8 wrote...

The conflict between the templars and the mages seems forced at the end. Anders isn't a Circle mage, he's a known apostate protected by the Champion's reputation, and it seems like we're being cornered into this for the sole purpose of big boss battles. It loses the humanity of the debate when the First Enchanter turns into a GoA Harvester and the Knight-Commander is possessed by the Soul Calibur sword. Meredith was a Mexican jumping bean for most of it, and we had Cullen siding with Hawke even if he was killing templars left and right to get out of the Gallows.

Yes, it would make more sense for Cullen to go against Meredith immediately when she gives the order to kill mages, not sudenly at the end . I dont think that conflict between templars and mages is too  forced.  Anders killed only person who could mediate between Meredith and First Enchanter, making any peaceful option unavaible. What was very forced ,in my opinion, is that Hawke was forced to choose sides.

[FedericoV]

The writers loved it .

[Avissel]

He turned against her once she tried to overstep her authority, it didn't seem "sudden" to me.

[Cyaxares]

She overstepped her authority, when she tried to kill all mages without permission from the chantry.

[The Baconer]

sbarchak wrote...

She overstepped her authority, when she tried to kill all mages without permission from the chantry.

It's already been confirmed by WoG that, with the Cleric's death, she did have authority to declare an annulment.

[DownyTif]

highcastle wrote...

Man, I never thought I'd be in the position of defending Orsino, but here we are. To the first point, you're not winning when Orsino does the ritual to transform into a Harvester. There are countless waves of templars waiting outside. Everyone but Orsino and you're own merry band of misfits have been slaughtered. He views it as only a matter of time before the templars break in. Rather than die at their hands, he aims to take as many of them down with him.

I don't believe he knows he won't be able to control this form. Or perhaps he considers it a necessary risk. Orsino's a tough character to read because we don't get to interact with him all that much. He clearly knows more than he seems with his connection to Quentin, but the extent of this knowledge remains debatable.

I agree with the original post. I found the finale from the moment you chose your side to be badly executed. As for the quote, when he transforms there are what, 5 templars in the room that are killed in seconds? Then we need to finish off Orsino. Once this is done, we walk out of there, fight some templars (instead of waves and waves) and demons and then we fight Darth Meredith. All this could have been done with Orsino waiting in the room or following us from a distance.

[Corto81]

highcastle wrote...
There are countless waves of templars waiting outside. Everyone but Orsino and you're own merry band of misfits have been slaughtered. He views it as only a matter of time before the templars break in. Rather than die at their hands, he aims to take as many of them down with him.

I don't believe he knows he won't be able to control this form. Or perhaps he considers it a necessary risk. Orsino's a tough character to read because we don't get to interact with him all that much. He clearly knows more than he seems with his connection to Quentin, but the extent of this knowledge remains debatable.

Well... Honestly, still not good enough.

You're the Champion of Kirkwall, Slayer of Dragons, Bane of Qunari, Conqueror of Deep Roads....
And you're by his side, whacking templars left and right.
(not to mention the political side, where you'd probably be a pretty significant figure and loved by the town folk, having saved them from the Qunari)

And Orsino seems a completely reasonable man... Until that point.

And yeah, his solution is to turn into Harvester and attack YOU.

Seriously?

Nah, not good enough.
Not from the BW writers, the best in the business.

Modifié par Corto81, 28 avril 2011 - 04:36 .

[DownyTif]

Corto81 wrote...

highcastle wrote...
There are countless waves of templars waiting outside. Everyone but Orsino and you're own merry band of misfits have been slaughtered. He views it as only a matter of time before the templars break in. Rather than die at their hands, he aims to take as many of them down with him.

I don't believe he knows he won't be able to control this form. Or perhaps he considers it a necessary risk. Orsino's a tough character to read because we don't get to interact with him all that much. He clearly knows more than he seems with his connection to Quentin, but the extent of this knowledge remains debatable.

Well... Honestly, still not good enough.

You're the Champion of Kirkwall, Slayer of Dragons, Bane of Qunari, Conqueror of Deep Roads....
And you're by his side, whacking templars left and right.
(not to mention the political side, where you'd probably be a pretty significant figure and loved by the town folk, having saved them from the Qunari)

And Orsino seems a completely reasonable man... Until that point.

And yeah, his solution is to turn into Harvester and attack YOU.

Seriously?

Nah, not good enough.
Not from the BW writers, the best in the business.

Not to forget that just before you tell him you are ready to go, he tells you something like "Yes with the Champion of Kirkwall, I think we have a chance!". Then, one wave of Templars later, he goes in despair. I'm with you on this Corto.

[Beerfish]

Orsino simply cracked under the strain. He was already half mental with his dealings with Mr. serial killer. Once Brainic Anders blew up the Chantry he snapped as he knew both he and his mages were totally doomed no matter what the hero did with the templars (which he communicates at the time).

Think of him as being the captain of the Titanic. He utterly failed in either keeping in check bad mages in the town, or finding a way to lessen the impact of the building storm. Once the ship hit the iceburg he went bonkers.

[Lisa_H]

Deztyn wrote...

The endgame actually makes the most sense if you play Mage Hawke siding with the Templars. You can undermine Meredith's authority with the Templars and Cullen supports you. Kill the blood mage Orsino, help clear out the Circle and when Meredith turns on you it's still easy to understand. You're not just the Champion of Kirkwall, you're a free apostate with too much influence. Of course she'd want you dead. Cullen is nobler, he'd be willing to go along with arresting you, but murder is crossing the line.

Maybe this is why I never found anything strange with the ending. I have played the game two times both times as a mage siding with templars

[LobselVith8]

Nixter Shepard wrote...

It's moreso poor execution and a black and white decision that just seems irrelevant.

I agree. There's always a revolution, regardless of Hawke's actions, and the protagonist is forced down a linear path. Siding with templars or mages is still a forced confrontation because of an attack that was not committed by the Circle of Kirkwall, and neither side seems to accomodate any change. Hawke either leaves Kirkwall after the battle, or stays as Viscount and leaves office three years later. The battle between the mages and the templars because of what Anders does seems like an artificial confrontation to fight an insane Orsino and a mad Meredith in big boss battles that are devoid of humanity and common sense. Kirkwall seems like less of a hotbed for demonic activity and more a center for epic failures in logic and consistency. At least Hawke gets to leave Kirkwall and never look back.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 28 avril 2011 - 05:45 .

[graavigala85]

 Its just like with the game itself, the decisions you make dont need to feel right, just wrong and stupid.

[Slugwood]

IoCaster wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

I still contend that the best way to handle Orsino and Meredith is if it ended in a three-way battle rather than two direct battles.

I would have preferred an option to let the two kill each other while I surreptitiously dragged Cullen off to the side and slit his throat snogged him senseless.

Fix'd that for you.

[88mphSlayer]

it's basically one ending with 3 different paths to said one ending, with all 3 paths only given about 30 minutes to resolve EVERYTHING in kirkwall means it's easier to make people stupid

should've been 3 endings, or 1 ending with an extra act 4 that makes logical sense instead of 30 minutes of derp

[Corto81]

88mphSlayer wrote...

it's basically one ending with 3 different paths to said one ending, with all 3 paths only given about 30 minutes to resolve EVERYTHING in kirkwall means it's easier to make people stupid

should've been 3 endings, or 1 ending with an extra act 4 that makes logical sense instead of 30 minutes of derp

In my mind, there's not even 3 different paths to the one ending.

No matter who you side with, you HAVE to help Meredith and you HAVE to help Orsino before the final battle.
I thought Act 2 main plot was up to DA:O standards. It had me hopeful for Act 3.

Turns out Act 3 is a complete mess.

[88mphSlayer]

Corto81 wrote...

88mphSlayer wrote...

it's basically one ending with 3 different paths to said one ending, with all 3 paths only given about 30 minutes to resolve EVERYTHING in kirkwall means it's easier to make people stupid

should've been 3 endings, or 1 ending with an extra act 4 that makes logical sense instead of 30 minutes of derp

In my mind, there's not even 3 different paths to the one ending.

No matter who you side with, you HAVE to help Meredith and you HAVE to help Orsino before the final battle.
I thought Act 2 main plot was up to DA:O standards. It had me hopeful for Act 3.

Turns out Act 3 is a complete mess.

i'm on my 3rd playthrough of DA2 this time as a pro-mage mage and wrapping up act 3 i have to agree, Act 2 and the Qunari really started building tension in Act 1, Act 2 really built this tension up and you got a really good story about the Qunari and the two sides of the conflict and getting to understand the Arishock and whatnot... the culmination was well done as well

the Mage vs. Templar thing also started in Act 1, but took a back seat to the Qunari in Act 2, when they picked back up on the Mage vs. Templar issues in Act 3 it felt rushed, there wasn't much exploration of the personalities of Meredith or Orsino, certainly the Arishock comes off as a far more meaningful character than either of those two, and Act 3 in general was just shorter, you felt like you were wrapping up relationships - everybody was talking about the upcoming war and whose side you would pick - like all the NPC's read the script beforehand

all the same tho, the setup for Act 3 made me want more, and maybe that factors into my personal disappointment at the ending

Modifié par 88mphSlayer, 28 avril 2011 - 09:02 .

[Rifneno]

IoCaster wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

I still contend that the best way to handle Orsino and Meredith is if it ended in a three-way battle rather than two direct battles.

I would have preferred an option to let the two kill each other while I surreptitiously dragged Cullen off to the side and slit his throat. Then take the opportunity to grab Bethany and hitch a ride back to Ferelden with Isabela. 

So true.

Corto81 wrote...

highcastle wrote...
There are countless waves of templars waiting outside. Everyone but Orsino and you're own merry band of misfits have been slaughtered. He views it as only a matter of time before the templars break in. Rather than die at their hands, he aims to take as many of them down with him.

I don't believe he knows he won't be able to control this form. Or perhaps he considers it a necessary risk. Orsino's a tough character to read because we don't get to interact with him all that much. He clearly knows more than he seems with his connection to Quentin, but the extent of this knowledge remains debatable.

Well... Honestly, still not good enough.

You're the Champion of Kirkwall, Slayer of Dragons, Bane of Qunari, Conqueror of Deep Roads....
And you're by his side, whacking templars left and right.
(not to mention the political side, where you'd probably be a pretty significant figure and loved by the town folk, having saved them from the Qunari)

And Orsino seems a completely reasonable man... Until that point.

And yeah, his solution is to turn into Harvester and attack YOU.

Seriously?

Nah, not good enough.
Not from the BW writers, the best in the business.

Agreed with this also.  The impression I get is that the Gallows is massive, and both sides of this battle are far bigger than we see personally.  There's many battles going on throughout the Gallows and the results of each individual one are different.  Some have the mages holding their ground, some have the templars advancing through mage resistance, some have mages simply fleeing for their lives.  However the particular one we're in has the templars being decimated.  Hawke might as well be the avatar of a god seeings as he's a PC and Orsino himself is a mage of immense power.  In Act II we see him single-handedly take a small platoon of qunari and in Act III we see him throwing templars around like rag dolls.  No one in the Gallows compares to the power of Hawke, Orsino, and Meredith.  Two out of the three are fighting on the same side in the same battle.  There's no reason for anyone in that room to have a mental breakdown unless they're a templar.