What I saw most amazing is that people outright hate blood magic even after all this time. Yes it did bring about the banishing of man from the Maker, but they could've done that without magic.
If you look at any other faction, group, or anything really. The fact is that you don't need magic in order to commit genocide and total war. So it stands to logical reason to me, that blood magic is NOT a sin, not a unholy sight for the Maker. Only a means to an end, like any magic that mages use.
And for anyone who wants to debate, let me ask you this: What about the Spirit Healer? Sure it comes from spirits of good, but it can STILL be corrupted, just like anything else.
Blood Magic: A deadly sin? Or a means to an end?
Débuté par
Crow_22
, avril 26 2011 11:08
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#2
Posté 26 avril 2011 - 11:14
Zeratul20
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Except that blood magic involves actively consorting with demons, who wish to gain access to the mortal realm through the mage.
So, it is as bad as it seems. The blood mage loses a part of himself to the demons, and can turn into an abomination.
So, it is as bad as it seems. The blood mage loses a part of himself to the demons, and can turn into an abomination.
#3
Posté 26 avril 2011 - 11:23
AgelessTimeless
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Crow_22 wrote...
What I saw most amazing is that people outright hate blood magic even after all this time. Yes it did bring about the banishing of man from the Maker, but they could've done that without magic.
If you look at any other faction, group, or anything really. The fact is that you don't need magic in order to commit genocide and total war. So it stands to logical reason to me, that blood magic is NOT a sin, not a unholy sight for the Maker. Only a means to an end, like any magic that mages use.
And for anyone who wants to debate, let me ask you this: What about the Spirit Healer? Sure it comes from spirits of good, but it can STILL be corrupted, just like anything else.
I agree completely, blood magic is simply using ones life force to fuel spells rather than using mana and lyrium. Just because it can be related to demons doesn't mean that it is evil.
#4
Posté 26 avril 2011 - 11:44
Taura-Tierno
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Zeratul20 wrote...
Except that blood magic involves actively consorting with demons, who wish to gain access to the mortal realm through the mage.
So, it is as bad as it seems. The blood mage loses a part of himself to the demons, and can turn into an abomination.
It doesn't have to include consorting with demons, if the Blood Mage learns it from some other place. That's the impression I got from the first game, at least.
#5
Posté 26 avril 2011 - 12:46
Sarcastic Tasha
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I blame religion for giving blood magic a bad name. The non-mages who chose what went into the chant decided blood magic was powerful and wanted to stop people using it because it would threaten their own power. They also left Shartan (am I getting the name right?) out so they could still oppress the elves. Religion is a pretty effective form of propaganda.
#6
Posté 26 avril 2011 - 01:54
TheAwesomologist
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If we learned anything from DA:O its that Blood Magic is a means to end. It's just very dangerous.
#7
Posté 26 avril 2011 - 03:04
Knight of Dane
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Blood magic is for entertaining kids at parties.
Not/BM Hawke kills ton of Bm'es and doesn't have to turn to it him/herself.
Not/BM Hawke kills ton of Bm'es and doesn't have to turn to it him/herself.
#8
Posté 26 avril 2011 - 03:08
Wulfram
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Taura-Tierno wrote...
It doesn't have to include consorting with demons, if the Blood Mage learns it from some other place. That's the impression I got from the first game, at least.
Anders says to Merrill
Anders: So, when you first did blood magic, it was... just an accident, right?
Anders: You cut yourself and realized the power? You didn't actually deal with a demon?
So he at least thinks it's possible to learn without demons
#9
Posté 26 avril 2011 - 03:24
Forst1999
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Normally Blood magic is just a different method to fuel your spells. Is it evil to use your blood for this? I don't think so. Is it any more evil to boil your enemies blood than to burn them to death? No, i can't say that. Nasty maybe, but so is backstabbing or putting hexes on them.
Aquiring it also isn't mandatory evil. It can be learned from other sources than demons. Jowan just researched it, in Awakening you could aquire it as a book. Anders too assumes you could discover it accidently, as the quote Wulfram listed shows. And even if you get it from a demon, maybe you didn't have to give him anything for it. Taking the demon's gift but not giving him anything in return, (like the warden if you intimadated Connor's demon) is clever, not evil.
Human sacrifices to fuel blood magic are obviously evil, as is mind control. But this things are just evil uses of blood magic, it doesn't damn the whole school. You could use elemental magic to burn down an orphanage, but that doesn't make elemental magic evil.
Aquiring it also isn't mandatory evil. It can be learned from other sources than demons. Jowan just researched it, in Awakening you could aquire it as a book. Anders too assumes you could discover it accidently, as the quote Wulfram listed shows. And even if you get it from a demon, maybe you didn't have to give him anything for it. Taking the demon's gift but not giving him anything in return, (like the warden if you intimadated Connor's demon) is clever, not evil.
Human sacrifices to fuel blood magic are obviously evil, as is mind control. But this things are just evil uses of blood magic, it doesn't damn the whole school. You could use elemental magic to burn down an orphanage, but that doesn't make elemental magic evil.
#10
Posté 26 avril 2011 - 03:31
LobselVith8
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Zeratul20 wrote...
Except that blood magic involves actively consorting with demons, who wish to gain access to the mortal realm through the mage.
No, it doesn't. Even the summary of blood mage states (emphasis mine):
"The effects can be vile, but this specialization isn’t limited to madmen and monsters. Many see it as the only form of magic that is truly free, because it’s tied to the physical, not favors to spirits or demons."
Zeratul20 wrote...
So, it is as bad as it seems. The blood mage loses a part of himself to the demons, and can turn into an abomination.
No, it's not. Jowan apparently learned it from books in the library, and the Orlesian Warden can learn blood magic from a book in Amaranthine. As for using blood magic, it's a means to an end in Kirkwall. Even the summary for the blood magic specialization notes:
"Templars hunt blood mages relentlessly, yet despite their efforts, Kirkwall sees more instances of blood magic with each passing year. Some whisper that the Order's relentless hunt has driven good intentioned apostates to blood magic in their desperation to survive and keep their freedom."
This statement makes sense when you consider that templars have the ability to nullify a mage's ability to use Circle sanctioned magic.
#11
Posté 26 avril 2011 - 03:52
Rabies
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There are a few misconceptions I am seeing in this thread. The first is that blood magic is inherently related to demons and one can only gain access to its power by looking a demon in the eye and striking that bargain. This is false. There are plenty of instances of blood magic being taught by a tutor, much like any other magical discipline.
The power of blood magic is certainly useful, but like all magic it is open to abuse of such power. Take a look at the spirit school of magic for instance. You draw upon the essence of death itself to fuel your mana or cause people to messily explode as living bombs. The problem with blood magic, and why people fear it, comes from its ability to use other people's life force. This is open to abuse, but not every blood mage goes this route.
However, like the saying goes: "Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely." There is real temptation to use blood magic's full potential despite the consequences. I usually have my Mage Hawkes go Blood Mage, but the way I always picture it is that he is using his own blood to fuel spells or taking the blood of those willing to make such a sacrifice or only the blood of those who are already dead.
The power of blood magic comes from sacrifice, although that sacrifice can be very noble in nature instead of sinister. Just look at if you use blood magic to save Conner at Redcliffe. Isolde volunteers for the ritual. The reason that the power of blood magic is so feared is simply because there are a lot of mages out there who give in to that temptation of using it simply as a means to an end instead of taking into account its consequences.
The power of blood magic is certainly useful, but like all magic it is open to abuse of such power. Take a look at the spirit school of magic for instance. You draw upon the essence of death itself to fuel your mana or cause people to messily explode as living bombs. The problem with blood magic, and why people fear it, comes from its ability to use other people's life force. This is open to abuse, but not every blood mage goes this route.
However, like the saying goes: "Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely." There is real temptation to use blood magic's full potential despite the consequences. I usually have my Mage Hawkes go Blood Mage, but the way I always picture it is that he is using his own blood to fuel spells or taking the blood of those willing to make such a sacrifice or only the blood of those who are already dead.
The power of blood magic comes from sacrifice, although that sacrifice can be very noble in nature instead of sinister. Just look at if you use blood magic to save Conner at Redcliffe. Isolde volunteers for the ritual. The reason that the power of blood magic is so feared is simply because there are a lot of mages out there who give in to that temptation of using it simply as a means to an end instead of taking into account its consequences.
#12
Posté 26 avril 2011 - 04:22
TEWR
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It's not inherently evil (if a debate arises where I feel the need to prove my point, then I will partake)
But I do wonder if it could be used medicinally to control the blood flow of a person whose artery was cut. You know, keeping the blood from gushing forth out of the body. This is just speculation of course.
But I do wonder if it could be used medicinally to control the blood flow of a person whose artery was cut. You know, keeping the blood from gushing forth out of the body. This is just speculation of course.
#13
Posté 26 avril 2011 - 04:26
Mallika Surana
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I'm with the school of thought that blood magic is not inherently evil. My Surana used blood magic to kill the Archdemon and Darkspawn but never used it on people. As far as where she learned it, I like to think she made Jowan teach her at Redcliffe 
I always disliked how people treated it in game, but I totally get why. Religon is a powerful propogabda machine.
I always disliked how people treated it in game, but I totally get why. Religon is a powerful propogabda machine.
#14
Guest_PurebredCorn_*
Posté 26 avril 2011 - 04:52
Guest_PurebredCorn_*
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AgelessTimeless wrote...
Crow_22 wrote...
What I saw most amazing is that people outright hate blood magic even after all this time. Yes it did bring about the banishing of man from the Maker, but they could've done that without magic.
If you look at any other faction, group, or anything really. The fact is that you don't need magic in order to commit genocide and total war. So it stands to logical reason to me, that blood magic is NOT a sin, not a unholy sight for the Maker. Only a means to an end, like any magic that mages use.
And for anyone who wants to debate, let me ask you this: What about the Spirit Healer? Sure it comes from spirits of good, but it can STILL be corrupted, just like anything else.
I agree completely, blood magic is simply using ones life force to fuel spells rather than using mana and lyrium. Just because it can be related to demons doesn't mean that it is evil.
I felt the same way about blood magic in Origins as you do but now my opinion has changed after playing DA2.
Even though at it's most basic, blood magic is simply using one's own blood to fuel some of the same spells that are fueled by mana or lyrium, it still seems to be very strongly linked to demons/spirits. I understand that any mage can become possessed, but dealing with demons or spirits or whatever you want to call them almost always seems to lead to corruption of some sort especially in a place where the veil is thin or the mage is under extreme duress.
There is still a lot we don't know about blood magic, but it appears the more we find out the less pleasant it becomes. So to me it's very reasonable for people to condemn blood magic. Condemnation is not necessarily a bad thing though, I like that dealing with it has a price, otherwise why wouldn't every mage use it?
Modifié par PurebredCorn, 26 avril 2011 - 05:17 .
#15
Posté 26 avril 2011 - 05:19
Eveangaline
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I think aside from the bad history blood magic has, the part that makes it seem so scary is that it can be used for things like mind reading and body control. That kind of power that can be used over you would seem terrifying to the average person.
#16
Posté 26 avril 2011 - 05:22
bleetman
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We are talking about magic that allows the mage to suck the life out of others or raise the dead here, amongst other things. It has every reason to be banned.
#17
Posté 26 avril 2011 - 05:29
phyreblade74
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Merrill insists, like you do, that blood magic is nothing different than any other magic. If so, then we have to consider that all magic is, as the chantry teaches, dangerous. I mean, if blood magic is really, truly no different, then all magic is prone to corruption, none of it is really "good", it's all "bad".
That isn't how I've been playing my game, mind you. I've always played that magic isn't the problem, so much as blood magic is a misuse or abuse of magic, makes magic problematic. Then it isn't that mages are the boogeymen the Chantry says they are but that blood mages are corrupted.
I treat it alot like the difference between tylenol and cocaine, perhaps. An argument can be made that both substances can be used positively. But the fact remains the latter is prone to misuse in those who use it, especially in those who use it repeatedly and/or extensively. Here I've been playing my game like magic is the tylenol and blood magic is the cocaine; and now you're telling me it's all the same.
Suddenly I have to put regular 'ole magic on the same level as blood magic? That means the Chantry is correct, all magic is dangerous and in need of careful, utter monitoring and control, because it all allows for the same effects, consequences, and repercussions. You've provided me yet further reasons to support the Templars, lol.
That isn't how I've been playing my game, mind you. I've always played that magic isn't the problem, so much as blood magic is a misuse or abuse of magic, makes magic problematic. Then it isn't that mages are the boogeymen the Chantry says they are but that blood mages are corrupted.
I treat it alot like the difference between tylenol and cocaine, perhaps. An argument can be made that both substances can be used positively. But the fact remains the latter is prone to misuse in those who use it, especially in those who use it repeatedly and/or extensively. Here I've been playing my game like magic is the tylenol and blood magic is the cocaine; and now you're telling me it's all the same.
Suddenly I have to put regular 'ole magic on the same level as blood magic? That means the Chantry is correct, all magic is dangerous and in need of careful, utter monitoring and control, because it all allows for the same effects, consequences, and repercussions. You've provided me yet further reasons to support the Templars, lol.
#18
Posté 26 avril 2011 - 05:37
hoorayforicecream
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There's a couple of issues with learning blood magic.
1. It isn't *inherently* evil, but it has a lot of potential for abuse. You can use your own blood, but you can use other people's blood, and that tends to make other people nervous.
2. The places where one can learn blood magic are incredibly limited. While some might have you believe that you can just go to the local library, read a book and learn it, such books are often either locked up, destroyed, or require bargains struck with existing blood mages.
3. Blood magic is the alternative to lyrium for a power source. Since the Chantry has a monopoly on the surface world lyrium trade, they are reluctant to encourage competition.
The main issue is that blood magic is an ancient form of magic that was lost centuries before, when the first darkspawn were created. The only creatures who really remember how to perform it are demons. This is why blood magic is so inevitably intertwined with the demons... However people learn blood magic, at some point in the history, somebody has consorted and made deals with demons. Because of this, typically mages with sinister intent or desperate need look to blood magic to solve their problems, and both are ripe for demonic influence.
So... is it possible to learn blood magic and use it for good? Sure. But there's an awful lot of established history of bad blood mages, and there's an awful lot of history of blood magic and demonology going hand in hand. Some individuals might be strong enough to withstand the temptations of the demons, but I doubt it will ever be a really socially accepted thing. The potential for abuse is simply too great.
1. It isn't *inherently* evil, but it has a lot of potential for abuse. You can use your own blood, but you can use other people's blood, and that tends to make other people nervous.
2. The places where one can learn blood magic are incredibly limited. While some might have you believe that you can just go to the local library, read a book and learn it, such books are often either locked up, destroyed, or require bargains struck with existing blood mages.
3. Blood magic is the alternative to lyrium for a power source. Since the Chantry has a monopoly on the surface world lyrium trade, they are reluctant to encourage competition.
The main issue is that blood magic is an ancient form of magic that was lost centuries before, when the first darkspawn were created. The only creatures who really remember how to perform it are demons. This is why blood magic is so inevitably intertwined with the demons... However people learn blood magic, at some point in the history, somebody has consorted and made deals with demons. Because of this, typically mages with sinister intent or desperate need look to blood magic to solve their problems, and both are ripe for demonic influence.
So... is it possible to learn blood magic and use it for good? Sure. But there's an awful lot of established history of bad blood mages, and there's an awful lot of history of blood magic and demonology going hand in hand. Some individuals might be strong enough to withstand the temptations of the demons, but I doubt it will ever be a really socially accepted thing. The potential for abuse is simply too great.
#19
Posté 26 avril 2011 - 05:48
Crow_22
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YEP! I agree with a lot of what you guys are sayin'. Magic in DA, in my opinion, is a means to an end. Just as a sword for a warrior or a dagger for a rogue. Do you need to careful? Yeah... Treat it as if your wielding a sword or dagger if not more so!
Yes, I agree mages need to watch their powers, but I see no problem with the types of magic. Just as I said, it's a means to an end, not inherently evil. And I agree with phyreblade74, the Templars and Chantry have yet to prove to me that they have the rights to controlling mages.
Also, I don't blame religion, I blame people. People use religion in order to gain power, which is wrong.. I have no doubt in my mind that most of the 'Chantry Members' that are higher up have corrupt and selfish goals, if not, then misguided ones. Rarely ever do you see a mage sympathizer like the Grand Cleric in DA2.
Yes, I agree mages need to watch their powers, but I see no problem with the types of magic. Just as I said, it's a means to an end, not inherently evil. And I agree with phyreblade74, the Templars and Chantry have yet to prove to me that they have the rights to controlling mages.
Also, I don't blame religion, I blame people. People use religion in order to gain power, which is wrong.. I have no doubt in my mind that most of the 'Chantry Members' that are higher up have corrupt and selfish goals, if not, then misguided ones. Rarely ever do you see a mage sympathizer like the Grand Cleric in DA2.
#20
Posté 26 avril 2011 - 06:10
Maria Caliban
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Probably both.Crow_22 wrote...
Blood Magic: A deadly sin? Or a means to an end?
Though I hesitate to back deadly sin because it has a specific meaning in Christian folklore.
#21
Guest_PurebredCorn_*
Posté 26 avril 2011 - 06:42
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Eveangaline wrote...
I think aside from the bad history blood magic has, the part that makes it seem so scary is that it can be used for things like mind reading and body control. That kind of power that can be used over you would seem terrifying to the average person.
The scene where Huon mind controls his wife is so upsetting to watch, and then to not be able to do anything about it. Gah! So frustrating, and really emphasizes how aweful abusing that kind of power can be.
Modifié par PurebredCorn, 26 avril 2011 - 06:48 .
#22
Posté 26 avril 2011 - 07:15
Crow_22
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Maria Caliban wrote...
Probably both.Crow_22 wrote...
Blood Magic: A deadly sin? Or a means to an end?
Though I hesitate to back deadly sin because it has a specific meaning in Christian folklore.
Says in the Bible the consumtion of blood is a sin, like a vampire. Using Blood in this manner.... Meh not so much lol.
BTw, witchcraft in the bible is basically demonology, not magic we see in videos today.
#23
Posté 26 avril 2011 - 08:46
primero holodon
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I get the Impression that the reason blood magic is most commonly learned by demons is because the Chantry hunted it down to the point where the only way to learn it was by consorting with demons. also I suspect that the real reason the Chantry hates blood magic was simply due to it being the most powerful tool of the Tevinter Magisters.
That being said, Blood magic still seems a bit reckless to me but I think that if used with caution it could prove quite useful.
That being said, Blood magic still seems a bit reckless to me but I think that if used with caution it could prove quite useful.
Modifié par primero holodon, 26 avril 2011 - 08:47 .
#24
Posté 27 avril 2011 - 12:54
Emperor Iaius I
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Blood magic is powerful.
It's also forbidden.
The result? Mages who are already "broken" go into it. It's not a problem with blood magic, it's that the circle mages that resort to it have already decided to become evil. Mages outside that tradition don't have that same problem.
It's also forbidden.
The result? Mages who are already "broken" go into it. It's not a problem with blood magic, it's that the circle mages that resort to it have already decided to become evil. Mages outside that tradition don't have that same problem.
#25
Posté 27 avril 2011 - 12:59
Maria Caliban
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What I mean was that blood magic isn't a deadly sin.Crow_22 wrote...
Says in the Bible the consumtion of blood is a sin, like a vampire. Using Blood in this manner.... Meh not so much lol.Maria Caliban wrote...
Probably both.Crow_22 wrote...
Blood Magic: A deadly sin? Or a means to an end?
Though I hesitate to back deadly sin because it has a specific meaning in Christian folklore.
BTw, witchcraft in the bible is basically demonology, not magic we see in videos today.
