41 réponses à ce sujet

[Crow_22]

Oh, then no then, Maria Cailban. XD Didn't know what you were bringing, sorry.

[Captmorgan72]

I think the real danger of using blood magic is that it attracts the attention of demons more than using other schools of magic. The art of using blood for fueling magic is not evil but dangerous in the sense that it multiplies a mage's already high risk of demonic possession. Probably not a problem for a experienced mage that has passed their harrowing but a inexperienced or apostate mage could easily be tricked by a demon.

Modifié par Captmorgan72, 27 avril 2011 - 02:47 .

[dragonflight288]

My take on Blood Magic is fairly simple. If you make a deal with a demon to learn it, you better kill that demon immediately after, otherwise you have just ruined someone's day. If you learned it from another source, that's is perfectly fine. And when I read the lore in Origins about the schools of magic, it pretty much says that for the most part people use their blood in place of lyrium to power spells.

I agree that a single blood mage can influence the mind of a King, and shouldn't be anywhere near the people in power. But if you are a mage fighting the templars, you will quickly find out that they can nullify all the Circle sanctioned magic (determined by the Chantry what is and isn't acceptable), you suddenly find yourself without any ability to defend yourself. So unless you're an arcane warrior and wearing armor, you're pretty much screwed.

So Blood magic becomes the ultimate solution. The best defense against the templars because they can't negate the source of that magic without their swords.

Oh, and blood magic doesn't have to be the source of raising the dead. That lies in the School of Spirit-which is sanctioned by the chantry. But the lore I read on it in Origins says that it is often mistaken for blood magic. The spell is Reanimate Dead. No blood magic needed.

So if you have blood magic. So long as it's self defense and you use your own blood (or in the case of Isolde, volunteers) then it's fine. But don't use it to exert control over anyone.

[TEWR]

Welp, I feel the need to rant about blood magic, only because it's 4 a.m where I am and I can't sleep. So, you know, I need something to pass the time by.
Blood Magic is not inherently evil. It has power yes, but so does a sword, a crossbow, a ballista, a gun, etc. It is only a tool. Tools are deemed good or evil by the methods in which they are utilized. The saying "Guns don't kill people. People kill people" can apply here if changed slightly:

Blood Magic doesn't kill people. Evil and heartless mages kill people.

The Chantry forbids it (imo and Avernus', foolishly so) because of the Tevinter Imperium's past history. Not only that, they claim to know what Andraste meant by her words "Magic must serve man, not rule over him". The problem with this phrase is that there is more than one meaning to it, and only Andraste knew what she meant. There are three meanings that spring to mind:

• The Andrastian belief that mages are dangerous and should be corralled like animals.
  
  
  
• Magic should be used to help the people (the Tevinter way of it)
  
  
  
• Magic should not influence the mind of a mage. With great power comes great responsibility. This, I feel, is what Andraste truly meant, along with the Tevinter interpretation.

Now, there are different types of Blood Magic. There's the powerful, mind controlling kind we all know and talk about. But there are less well known ways of utilizing blood magic.

The first that springs to mind is the Joining ritual. Consuming Darkspawn blood mixed magically with lyrium and Archdemon blood is Blood Magic. Now people will try to dispute this fact saying "Blood + Magic =/= Blood Magic."

However, they are wrong. The Reaver specialization's Codex says that by consuming Dragon's blood and gaining abilities, it is a definite form of Blood Magic. Blood Magic isn't about only using your blood for power. It's also about gaining power from blood. The same rules that apply to the Reaver spec. apply to the Grey Warden Joining ritual. We also know that the Grey Wardens employ blood magic because it helps to kill the Darkspawn quicker. And with proper ethical research, great strides can and have been made into researching more effective ways of understanding the Darkspawn (see the Avernus quest in DA2 if you let not only Avernus live while continuing ethical research, but spared the Architect)

Secondly, there is the Scrying from Witch Hunt. When Finn asks for Ariane's blood, you can call him out on if it's Blood Magic or not. He says it is. By using her blood, they gain the ability to find the Lights of Arlathan.

Third, we have phylacteries. Possibly one of the biggest, if not the biggest, hypocrisies the Chantry is made of. Templars take the blood of a mage and seal it in a vial. Should that mage escape, they use the phylactery to track him/her down. They gain the ability to find the mage in a population of enormous sizes. This is Blood Magic, which the Chantry condones as long as they are using it. Or perhaps they refuse to admit that they are wrong and it is blood magic.

Now, let's examine how to learn Blood Magic. Anders says in Dragon Age 2 to Merrill, and I'm paraphrasing here:

• "Tell me you just cut your wrist on accident and discovered blood magic."

which implies that any mage can stumble across the power of blood magic, but without proper training it is useless. He also states in a banter with Fenris (again, paraphrasing):

• "You have to look a demon in the eye to learn blood magic"

which seems to me to mean that demons can teach a mage how to properly use blood magic. Again, any mage can stumble across its' powers, but without training it is useless.

Mages can also learn Blood Magic from a book, thus eliminating/mitigating the risk of consorting with a demon or cutting your wrists too deeply. Jowan is a case in point, as he learned Blood Magic from a book. He tells you he only skimmed a little bit of a book and dabbled. The irony in this situation is that the Chantry forbids Blood Magic learning, yet the Circle of Ferelden kept books on the subject, which Irving confiscated later on. Whether they were known to be there is a mystery, but if they were the Chantry is operating on some faulty logic. A line I came up with and used a lot regarding this scenario is as follows:

You can teach a man that bombs are dangerous without giving him a blueprint of how to make said bomb.

Next, let's examine a comprehensive list (to the best of my knowledge) of known blood mages and determine whether they fall into the good, evil, or neutral category.

• Uldred- Bat**** insane Blood Mage who almost destroyed the Circle, and in turn was possessed (or merged willingly?) with a Pride demon. EVIL.
  
  
  
• Jowan - A kind and good, albeit bumbling, mage who didn't want his emotions torn away from him. He was in love with Lily, and because he dabbled in blood magic he would've been made Tranquil? I can understand what he did. A lot of people blame the whole Arl of Redcliffe quest on him, but I don't see that as the case. I don't remember whether I claimed he was innocent or guilty in another thread that talked about blood mages, but I feel if you're going to blame Jowan, so too must you blame Isolde and Loghain. However, one could argue that Connor's deal with the demon was the only thing that kept Eamon alive. If he had died, the Wardens would've been royally screwed.
  
  
  
• Anders - Good. You have the option of making him a Blood Mage in Awakening, and your Warden can even address this fact in Amaranthine. This inevitably makes him a Blood Mage, as the storyline then considers it canon. However, Anders in DA2 views BM as bad, no doubt due to his Andrastian beliefs. So one can assume that sometime between Awakening and DA2, if you made him a BM, he ceased practicing the arcane art.
  
  
  
• Merrill - Possibly one of the smartest mages out there. She is able to recognize that all Fade spirits are dangerous and there is no separation of them. She practices her BM safely, and only uses her blood. That is in itself the mark of a good BM. She even knows how to protect herself in the Fade against spirits, saying that the only thing you can believe is yourself. The only time she betrays you is in Feynriel's quest in his mind, and that's only because the demon forced her to betray you much like the Sloth demon's minions in Broken Circle did to some of your companions by giving them a false reality. She even addresses this afterwards. GOOD.
  
  
  
• Quentin - Evil and bat**** insane. I don't need to give anymore details on it. We know the deal. He went insane after his wife died. I kinda feel sympathy for him, but not really.
  
  
  
• Gascard - sort of a grey area himself. He helps Hawke, but only so he can kill Quentin and learn necromancy (which wasn't that available in the Spirit school?). If you convince him that what he's doing is a bad move, he relents on Blood Magic and vows to live a better life, assuming you let him live. Not many blood mages get a second chance, so I'll place him in the neutral area.
  
  
  
• Alain - Good. He didn't really use it for anything other than freeing the hostage.
  
  
  
• Decimus - bat**** insane. Had a nice wavy hair thing going in the scene where you meet him though. Evil
  
  
  
• Grace - sane at first. Then goes bat**** insane. Or was possessed prior to that event, since you fight an Abomination of her. So evil
  
  
  
• Orsino - Good, albeit misguided.  Orsino had been fighting Meredith since Year 1 of Hawke's tenure within Kirkwall (Varric says "That's also when the trouble began with the mages"). And in Act 3, Meredith squeezes harder and harder, and forces more mages to undergo the Rite of Tranquility. Mages that have passed their Harrowing. She is growing increasingly paranoid and insane, and Orsino fights back within his power. After Anders plays Jenga with the Chantry, the Mage-Templar conflict now spirals into a full-blown war. Meredith called the Right of Annulment not because Elthina was killed, but because she could. She had wanted to call it for a long time, and she realized then that she could. So she did.
  
  
  .

 Now finally, we must examine the origins of Blood Magic. We have conflicting sources on the matter. We have:

• 
  
• Blood Magic came from the Old Gods.
  
  
  
• Blood Magic was taught to mages by demons.
  
  
  
• Blood Magic was first used by the elves of Arlathan and then the Tevinter Imperium took that knowledge for themselves.

We don't know which, if any, is the true scenario. For all we know some mage picked up a book entitled Blood Magic and You: A Beginner's Guide On How to Properly Slit Your Wrists

So, in closing to this long rant that took me 45 minutes to type out and think on, blood magic is not inherently evil. It can be used for evil purposes, but that does not make it evil. If it did, then using a gun should be considered evil and banned forever. It's a tool. Nothing more.

anything you want me to elaborate on people, feel free to ask and I shall try my best.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 03 août 2011 - 09:28 .

[Forst1999]

@ The Ethereal Writer Redux
You make a lot of interesting points, and i agree.
Just a little note regarding Blood Magic, necromancy and Gascard. DAII shows necromancy to be connected with blood magic. I can't tell if this a a little retcon, or just the perception of the protagonists. I'd say it sounds more like spirit magic, but the lore about this is a little unlear right now.
However, something like that Quentin and Gascard were after, really reanimating the dead (or well, connecting body parts), isn't achievable only through the use of spirit magic. It's modus operendi is binding spirits to corpses, i believe. To truely give live back to something, you have to use blood magic, as it is the only magic that affects the life force. On the one hand this puts blood magic even higher on the "playing god" scale, with possibly horrible consequences. On the other hand, i think the chantry's ban of blood magic might rob Thedas of interesting medical progress. Not creating zombies (or Frankenleadras), but organ transplants under medival circustances among other things.
It's all about how you use it. Blood magic's potential is enormous, for the good and ill. It's prohibition only blocks the good potential, while for desperate or insane apostates it will always be a way, leaving it's potential for evil deeds intact.

Modifié par Forst1999, 27 avril 2011 - 10:54 .

[TEWR]

Forst I agree that Blood Magic may have untapped medicinal potential. One theory that came to mind the other day was that maybe Blood Magic might help to control the blood flow of a person who had an artery cut (meaning keeping the blood flowing through the body without it spraying everywhere). I don't know if you can save a person whose artery has been cut (I think you can if you're quick enough), but if not then just take my example and apply it to something else.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 27 avril 2011 - 03:07 .

[dragonflight288]

I agree Necromancy may be a part of Blood magic, but when I mentioned reanimate dead from origins, which is in the school of spirit, I was thinking that instead of possessing the dead with a fade spirit, you are simply taking a corpse and providing enough magical power to get it to move around and fight for you. What Quentin did with Leandra was definitely blood magic because he had cut off her head and attached it to a body made up of several people, but still was able to keep her mind after his death.

[Emperor Iaius I]

Captmorgan72 wrote...

I think the real danger of using blood magic is that it attracts the attention of demons more than using other schools of magic. The art of using blood for fueling magic is not evil but dangerous in the sense that it multiplies a mage's already high risk of demonic possession. Probably not a problem for a experienced mage that has passed their harrowing but a inexperienced or apostate mage could easily be tricked by a demon.

Does it, though? Is it the blood magic that does it, or the fact that the blood mages in question tend to be those who are most at risk?

[Herr Uhl]

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

Captmorgan72 wrote...

I think the real danger of using blood magic is that it attracts the attention of demons more than using other schools of magic. The art of using blood for fueling magic is not evil but dangerous in the sense that it multiplies a mage's already high risk of demonic possession. Probably not a problem for a experienced mage that has passed their harrowing but a inexperienced or apostate mage could easily be tricked by a demon.

Does it, though? Is it the blood magic that does it, or the fact that the blood mages in question tend to be those who are most at risk?

I think that demons get attracted as blood magic is their thing. But nothing confirms this.

Anyways, they're drawn to power, something which evidently lies in blood magic.

[TEWR]

I think most blood mages get complacent and let their guards down, which demons take advantage of.

[Agamo45]

It is a deadly sin, all blood mages should be put down like the mad dogs that they are. Perhaps by stoning.

[TEWR]

so Merrill's a mad dog?

[Agamo45]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

so Merrill's a mad dog?

My zealot Hawke wants the ability to be able to stone Merril and other blood mages, preferably with ostraca for a truly agonizing punishment for their blasphemy.

[TEWR]

so your zealot Hawke feels that way about blood magic and Merrill. But how do YOU feel about it and Merrill?


Hint: When it comes to Merrill, there is only one acceptable answer. All others result in an angry swarm of Merrill lovers outside your door ready to tear you apart.

[TEWR]

To try and revive this thread before it dies completely (why do my posts always temporarily kill a thread, at best? =P), I'd also like to point out that religion is a means to attain power. I'd like to quote Edgar Allan Poe here if I may:


“All religion, my friend, is simply evolved out of fraud, fear, greed, imagination, and poetry”
wise words from a great man. Let's try to pinpoint where the Chantry falls to these five things.

• Fraud - The Chantry seems on the outside to be an ideal established religion. They do good deeds and protect its' citizens. But how many of these good deeds are simply done to shroud over their evil acts? Like the Exalted March of the Dales. I find it hard to believe that the Dalish Elves of that time would've assaulted anyone on purpose and without provocation. They were thankful that the people gave them land again. Land that had been forcibly taken from them by the Tevinter Imperium. I doubt they would've jeopardized their status for any reason. We also know that the Chantry sent missionaries to convert the Dalish elves, which they refused to do because they wanted to worship their own religion. So the missionaries left, but then returned to forcibly convert them. Because as we all know, the Chantry's dogma states that the Chant of Light must be sung from the four corners of the world. And they have no qualms about how they go about achieving that. Mass murder seems to fit in well with their morality. Good to know. So the Dalish fought back in defense. Had the other nations not gotten involved with this conflict, the Dalish could've won, because Orlais had just survived a Blight and was incredibly weak at this time. Who knows, maybe they wanted their land back because it was still in good health. Also, the elves supposedly remained neutral throughout that Blight (imo a stupid maneuver because it's a f****** Blight. not a war). So fraud, check.
  
• Fear - The Chantry fears mages because they are born with something that is in their DNA. They fear them because of the Tevinter Imperium's past history. They fear them because of spirits. So they gather them up and take them to the Circle to teach them how to properly defend against their magic (which the Dalish know how to do better). But they also indoctrinate the mages into thinking what they were born with is a curse from the Maker. I refer you to the one female mage who keeps praying for a sword of mercy to come, because she actually believes what she has is solely a curse. It is both a gift and a curse. As is most of what humanity has. Free will. Love. I could go on. Anyway, the Chantry also teaches the populus to fear mages. Most do, yet some believe that mages can be good people and worthy of respect (Gregoir, Leandra, Ser Maarevar Carver, Alistair, etc.). The Chantry would be content with making sure the world fears mages and sees them as less than human. Fear. A poison so foul it corrupts the very mind's rational thinking. They fear mages and make sure that everyone else does too. If a mage runs away from the Circle, he is automatically branded maleficar. All apostates are maleficar to them, and must be delivered "mercy". And in regards to the elves, they purposely left out verses dealing with Shartan. Why? I don't know for certain, but my guess is that after the Exalted March of the Dales they wanted to make sure people saw them as second-class citizens. Shartan fought with Andraste, yet they won't acknowledge him in their precious Chant.
  
• Greed - The Chantry controls lyrium as a means to keep a tight leash on the Templars. They don't want to lose their military, so they sure they're addicted to the lyrium. Once they're addicted, they're almost forced to remain within their ranks. If they leave, the withdrawal could kill them. One could also argue that they only "convert" other people so they can become more dominant. It has nothing to do with the Maker. It's all about influence over the world.
  
• Imagination and Poetry - These two go hand in hand to the Chant of Light. The Chant of Light is all fluff and poetic wording. The Golden City being corrupted by the hubris of the Tevinter mages seems to be a lie. Wynne states that it could all be allegory. What it could be an allegory to, I cannot say (I haven't brushed up on my literature studies for a while. I know what an allegory is, just what it is one to I don't know). It's a beautiful piece of literary work, but as Merrill says it has a lot of holes in it. Aveline, an atheist or a skeptical believer, says that it's pretty and maybe that's all it needs to be.

If anyone would like to add more to these, feel free. I'll then edit your posts in and give credit where credit is due.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 28 avril 2011 - 04:59 .

[Myusha]

Jowan thought blood magic was a means to an end. Look where that got him.

Blood Magic itself isn't evil. It's just so powerful; it can corrupt intention, apparently easily accessed by anyone it's only used when making a desperate final stand, and has the potential to devastate nations. Further more it provides a link for demons to use, which allows for possession if not constantly watchful. And being watchful can lead to stressful insanity for some.

And with Blood Magic proclaimed almost universally in Dragon Age as evil, the first thing to come to mind isn't: Let's go save the day with forbidden Blood Magic!

[LilyasAvalon]

Zeratul20 wrote...

Except that blood magic involves actively consorting with demons, who wish to gain access to the mortal realm through the mage.
So, it is as bad as it seems. The blood mage loses a part of himself to the demons, and can turn into an abomination.

Blood magic has been hinted in the game to also have the potential to happen without the consorting of demons though, for example 'by accident'.

There are also light forms of blood magic, and even the chantry uses these (These guys REALLY need to practice what they preach!), that's what phylacteries are for or location spells (Like the one that Orelsian mage uses to find Hawke's mother).