255 réponses à ce sujet

[CulturalGeekGirl]

lolwut666 wrote...

What you're all saying is bollocks.

The reason why the gaming market is, as you understand it, aimed at men is because men play more video games than woman.

Now, I know what you're thinking: "That's obvious, duh!"

But that's precisely the point. Until women make themselves customers, game developers won't bother making female-oriented advertisements because they'd rather target the larger audience simply because it's safer.

Instead of acting like spoiled brats and demanding that the devs conform themselves to your wishes, you should try getting more females into video games. Once the female market is expressive enough, what you want will come around naturally.

Patience is the word.

That's not what we're saying. I will try to simplify the statement, so you don't have to read the whole thread to understand the nuance.

We are saying that if your game has a feature, you should market that game in such a way that people who would be interested in that feature know that it is present.

If Mass Effect were Gears of War, we wouldn't be having this argument. We feel that Mass Effect's marketing has done an extremely poor job of communicating its features to a segment of the gaming market... a segment that buys many similar games. By not making the presence of these features clear, we think that Bioware may be missing out on sales.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 27 avril 2011 - 04:45 .

[jellobell]

lolwut666 wrote...

What you're all saying is bollocks.

The reason why the gaming market is, as you understand it, aimed at men is because men play more video games than woman.

Now, I know what you're thinking: "That's obvious, duh!"

But that's precisely the point. Until women make themselves customers, game developers won't bother making female-oriented advertisements because they'd rather target the larger audience simply because it's safer.

Instead of acting like spoiled brats and demanding that the devs conform themselves to your wishes, you should try getting more females into video games. Once the female market is expressive enough, what you want will come around naturally.

Patience is the word.

Really? Because how is the average female supposed to know that Bioware gives them the option to play as their own gender? E.S.P? Bioware has one of the largest female fanbases of almost any game company I know of. That means that the option to play as a female is a significant enticement. I know women who started gaming because of Bioware. 

Women aren't going to start getting into games if the marketing very clearly says "this isn't for you", which is what the marketing of every single Mass Effect game is doing. Expecting your customers to go above and beyond that is just bad form.

And I'm not sure what you mean by "once the female market is expressive enough". Just the fact that this topic is brought up at all means that Bioware has enough female fans who actually give a damn about how this game is marketed. 

Modifié par jellobell, 27 avril 2011 - 04:51 .

[Clonedzero]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

snfonseka wrote...

Yes, if BW did that from the begin of the series. Now, since they have established the icon of the Shepard they won't change that.

Let us assume that BW used a female character in the box art from the begining. 

If your argument is true; that the gender of the character in box-art makes an impact on sales and the gender of the playable character is the most important factor when purchasing a game (otherwise, no point of arguing that there should be a female character in the cover), then there should be a huge sales impact on ME series, because the majority of the male gamers won't show interest in buying the game just because
they can't  play ME as a male character.  So BW has taken the right decision by selecting a male as the icon of Shepard (based on your argument ).

Now I wonder, is the mojority of Metroid gamers female? or male (if so they probably didn't manage to recognize the playing character as a female, because of the "female" shape body armor that wears by Samus Aran)? 

You're missing the central point here. We think that Bioware could be getting a substantially larger part of the female gaming market. And one of the ways to get that market is to say "Hey girls, there's something here for you too!" in some way, via a marketing message. I agree that the majority of Mass Effect covers and marketing should feature Sheploo. But what if just 5% of the marketing featured Femshep TOO?

For instance, Half-life 2 had a variant cover with Alyx Vance on it. Alyx has become an icon of positive female characters in gaming. Offering this alternate cover doesn't seem to have hurt Halflife 2's sales figures.

We're not saying that having a female character on the cover is vital to having female gamers interested in a thing. We're saying that somewhere along the line, the marketing for Mass Effect has failed to engage female gamers as much as it could have, and doing an alternate cover similar to Half-Life 2's might help start bridging that gap.

yes, but they could just as easily heavily feature ashley on the cover and use her as the positive female character next to shepard.

[Schneidend]

The Shep on the cover of both games should have been wearing a full helmet from the start, regardless of gender.

Still, Vandershep is something that Bioware has decided to stick with as a strategy of singular focus on Shepard as the player's identity and the protagonist of the trilogy, and it makes sense. Regardless of whether you customize him or make him a woman, you're playing Commander Shepard, and Vandershep is the single iconic image that represents Shepard as a character, not necessarily as the person you play as. The alternative is to create some kind of horrible amalgam of dudes and dudettes. Instead, they're using personified iconography.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Schneidend wrote...

The Shep on the cover of both games should have been wearing a full helmet from the start, regardless of gender.

Still, Vandershep is something that Bioware has decided to stick with as a strategy of singular focus on Shepard as the player's identity and the protagonist of the trilogy, and it makes sense. Regardless of whether you customize him or make him a woman, you're playing Commander Shepard, and Vandershep is the single iconic image that represents Shepard as a character, not necessarily as the person you play as. The alternative is to create some kind of horrible amalgam of dudes and dudettes. Instead, they're using personified iconography.

Well, one of the possibilities is to still have Sheploo on the cover with some of the other characters, and then, in the corner on the bottom, have a helmeted Femshep. The "Least common denominator" dumb players will just assume she's another female character. Smarter consumers might realize "hey, she's wearing the same armor as the main character... is there a playable female version?"

You could also have a reversable cover for next to nothing. All games ship with the default Sheploo cover, but stores can decide if they want to reverse one of their display covers or not. It'd be up to them, but the default and most frequently seen version would be Sheploo. This would also provide a bonus marketing bump, as websites would crow about the "new alternate cover feature" and probably print big screenshots of the two covers side-by side. That would help females who read gaming blogs take notice of the options.

Alternately, have Femshep on the back of the box. like they did on ME1. Or feature text that says "Design your own Shepard" with pictures of male and female shepard below it, on the back of the box.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 27 avril 2011 - 04:56 .

[Schneidend]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Well, one of the possibilities is to still have Sheploo on the cover with some of the other characters, and then, in the corner on the bottom, have a helmeted Femshep. The "Least common denominator" dumb players will just assume she's another female character. Smarter consumers might realize "hey, she's wearing the same armor as the main character... is there a playable female version?"

You could also have a reversable cover for next to nothing. All games ship with the default Sheploo cover, but stores can decide if they want to reverse one of their display covers or not. It'd be up to them, but the default and most frequently seen version would be Sheploo. This would also provide a bonus marketing bump, as websites would crow about the "new alternate cover feature" and probably print big screenshots of the two covers side-by side. That would help females who read gaming blogs take notice of the options.

Alternately, have Femshep on the back of the box. like they did on ME1. Or feature text that says "Design your own Shepard" with pictures of male and female shepard below it, on the back of the box.

I'm not really suggesting there are no alternatives, only why it is rather unlikely that those alternatives will ever be implemented. I don't like Vandershep much, either, but he's pretty much here to stay until ME3 is in the past and Bio starts churning out a spin-off of some kind.

[jellobell]

Schneidend wrote...

I'm not really suggesting there are no alternatives, only why it is rather unlikely that those alternatives will ever be implemented. I don't like Vandershep much, either, but he's pretty much here to stay until ME3 is in the past and Bio starts churning out a spin-off of some kind.

Nobody's suggesting we get rid of Sheploo. The stuff CGG is talking about is supplemental. 

If they want more female gamers, then I think they should do a dev-diaryish thing (like lionhead did) which features Femshep. That could get people interested in ME3, and since it isn't out yet, it would give them the opportunity to try out the other two games.

[Centauri2002]

A lot of people are assuming that we're demanding BioWare change their marketing plan, even though it's been stated again and again that isn't what the problem is. I don't mind that they've used Sheploo as their iconic Shepard. I also understand that male gamers make up a good proportion of the player base. However, male gamers don't only play as MaleShep, just as female gamers don't always play as FemShep, so saying putting FemShep on the front is only for the female gamers is a moot point.

Keep Sheploo on the front of the box art, by all means. But provide an alternative for this supposed uber collector's edition that is planned for ME3. It's obvious that it's mostly the hardcore fans that are going to be buying them, so reward all of them, not just the MaleShep players. If I'm going to be forking out that much money, they can at least reward me for doing so. Alternate covers can be limited to that CE, if it must.

[Shimmer_Gloom]

lolwut666 wrote...

What you're all saying is bollocks.

The reason why the gaming market is, as you understand it, aimed at men is because men play more video games than woman.

Now, I know what you're thinking: "That's obvious, duh!"

But that's precisely the point. Until women make themselves customers, game developers won't bother making female-oriented advertisements because they'd rather target the larger audience simply because it's safer.

Instead of acting like spoiled brats and demanding that the devs conform themselves to your wishes, you should try getting more females into video games. Once the female market is expressive enough, what you want will come around naturally.

Patience is the word.

Really?  So, since our affection for the series and developer of said series is so high we are taking time out of our day to talk on a forum about how it could make more money for said developer.  We care about the series and want to see it do well.  This is us, 'being spoiled,' aparently.

This thread may have started as pure fan service but has now moved onto something a little more interesting.  Please follow along.

[Clonedzero]

centauri2002 wrote...

A lot of people are assuming that we're demanding BioWare change their marketing plan, even though it's been stated again and again that isn't what the problem is. I don't mind that they've used Sheploo as their iconic Shepard. I also understand that male gamers make up a good proportion of the player base. However, male gamers don't only play as MaleShep, just as female gamers don't always play as FemShep, so saying putting FemShep on the front is only for the female gamers is a moot point.

Keep Sheploo on the front of the box art, by all means. But provide an alternative for this supposed uber collector's edition that is planned for ME3. It's obvious that it's mostly the hardcore fans that are going to be buying them, so reward all of them, not just the MaleShep players. If I'm going to be forking out that much money, they can at least reward me for doing so. Alternate covers can be limited to that CE, if it must.

what do you suggest they make femshep look like in that case? the default femshep? cus honestly thats not a great face. keep her helmet on? well thats just insulting lol.

ive seen the femshep fan thread and all the pictures of different peoples femsheps, they all look wildly different lol

[Centauri2002]

Clonedzero wrote...

centauri2002 wrote...

A lot of people are assuming that we're demanding BioWare change their marketing plan, even though it's been stated again and again that isn't what the problem is. I don't mind that they've used Sheploo as their iconic Shepard. I also understand that male gamers make up a good proportion of the player base. However, male gamers don't only play as MaleShep, just as female gamers don't always play as FemShep, so saying putting FemShep on the front is only for the female gamers is a moot point.

Keep Sheploo on the front of the box art, by all means. But provide an alternative for this supposed uber collector's edition that is planned for ME3. It's obvious that it's mostly the hardcore fans that are going to be buying them, so reward all of them, not just the MaleShep players. If I'm going to be forking out that much money, they can at least reward me for doing so. Alternate covers can be limited to that CE, if it must.

what do you suggest they make femshep look like in that case? the default femshep? cus honestly thats not a great face. keep her helmet on? well thats just insulting lol.

ive seen the femshep fan thread and all the pictures of different peoples femsheps, they all look wildly different lol

If you've read the thread, then you'll also know that the majority of us don't mind if it's the default. Just as long as she's there. The majority of MaleShep players use customised characters anyway, but Sheploo is still on the cover. So I don't really see the difference.

[Shimmer_Gloom]

centauri2002 wrote...

Clonedzero wrote...

centauri2002 wrote...

A lot of people are assuming that we're demanding BioWare change their marketing plan, even though it's been stated again and again that isn't what the problem is. I don't mind that they've used Sheploo as their iconic Shepard. I also understand that male gamers make up a good proportion of the player base. However, male gamers don't only play as MaleShep, just as female gamers don't always play as FemShep, so saying putting FemShep on the front is only for the female gamers is a moot point.

Keep Sheploo on the front of the box art, by all means. But provide an alternative for this supposed uber collector's edition that is planned for ME3. It's obvious that it's mostly the hardcore fans that are going to be buying them, so reward all of them, not just the MaleShep players. If I'm going to be forking out that much money, they can at least reward me for doing so. Alternate covers can be limited to that CE, if it must.

what do you suggest they make femshep look like in that case? the default femshep? cus honestly thats not a great face. keep her helmet on? well thats just insulting lol.

ive seen the femshep fan thread and all the pictures of different peoples femsheps, they all look wildly different lol

If you've read the thread, then you'll also know that the majority of us don't mind if it's the default. Just as long as she's there. The majority of MaleShep players use customised characters anyway, but Sheploo is still on the cover. So I don't really see the difference.

I'm sure the guys a Bioware are compentent enough to figure out a way to put a cool looking femshep on the cover if they wanted.  I trust them.

[jellobell]

Clonedzero wrote...

what do you suggest they make femshep look like in that case? the default femshep? cus honestly thats not a great face. keep her helmet on? well thats just insulting lol.

As long as it's Femshep, I don't think anyone would mind if she had her helmet on. I'm pretty sure most people would prefer it.

[Clonedzero]

Shimmer_Gloom wrote...

lolwut666 wrote...

What you're all saying is bollocks.

The reason why the gaming market is, as you understand it, aimed at men is because men play more video games than woman.

Now, I know what you're thinking: "That's obvious, duh!"

But that's precisely the point. Until women make themselves customers, game developers won't bother making female-oriented advertisements because they'd rather target the larger audience simply because it's safer.

Instead of acting like spoiled brats and demanding that the devs conform themselves to your wishes, you should try getting more females into video games. Once the female market is expressive enough, what you want will come around naturally.

Patience is the word.

Really?  So, since our affection for the series and developer of said series is so high we are taking time out of our day to talk on a forum about how it could make more money for said developer.  We care about the series and want to see it do well.  This is us, 'being spoiled,' aparently.

This thread may have started as pure fan service but has now moved onto something a little more interesting.  Please follow along.

but see, you want it to cater to your perception of shepard. the problem is, they already won you. you're playing the games, you're on the forums. they know you'll buy it. they've already won me, they'd have to TRY to not sell me ME3.

they want new customers. best way to do that is with brand recognition.
yeah they should most certainly make sure people know you can play as a female, it should be clearly stated in the game info part of the page. it should be mentioned in interviews and such. but to change your advertising this late in a franchise is asking for horrible sales.

thats not my opinion, thats a fact. its marketing 101. with the exception of companies doing major rebrandings they tend to keep their same mascots, icons, logos, ect. because they want people to recognize it. thats the single most important thing in marketing and advertising. recognition.

[Clonedzero]

im not going to argue anymore. you want femshep on the cover because you're a fan of femshep. thats cool. but the cover art is a form of advertising. they want to keep their advertising consistent for recognition. you're refusing to see this from a proper objective marketing standpoint so im not going to continue.

[Centauri2002]

Clonedzero wrote...
but see, you want it to cater to your perception of shepard. the problem is, they already won you. you're playing the games, you're on the forums. they know you'll buy it. they've already won me, they'd have to TRY to not sell me ME3.

they want new customers. best way to do that is with brand recognition.
yeah they should most certainly make sure people know you can play as a female, it should be clearly stated in the game info part of the page. it should be mentioned in interviews and such. but to change your advertising this late in a franchise is asking for horrible sales.

thats not my opinion, thats a fact. its marketing 101. with the exception of companies doing major rebrandings they tend to keep their same mascots, icons, logos, ect. because they want people to recognize it. thats the single most important thing in marketing and advertising. recognition.

Again, you're talking about changing marketing when that's not what we're suggesting. We're talking about an addition to the cover art or a second trailer. An added feature, not a replacement. 

[Clonedzero]

centauri2002 wrote...

Clonedzero wrote...
but see, you want it to cater to your perception of shepard. the problem is, they already won you. you're playing the games, you're on the forums. they know you'll buy it. they've already won me, they'd have to TRY to not sell me ME3.

they want new customers. best way to do that is with brand recognition.
yeah they should most certainly make sure people know you can play as a female, it should be clearly stated in the game info part of the page. it should be mentioned in interviews and such. but to change your advertising this late in a franchise is asking for horrible sales.

thats not my opinion, thats a fact. its marketing 101. with the exception of companies doing major rebrandings they tend to keep their same mascots, icons, logos, ect. because they want people to recognize it. thats the single most important thing in marketing and advertising. recognition.

but a new player wouldnt be able to tell the difference between for example ashley being part of the cover or femshep. if she's helmeted they might think she's a generic enemy goon. generally when i see a fully armored person in full mask i think generic goon, like a stormtrooper from starwars.

Again, you're talking about changing marketing when that's not what we're suggesting. We're talking about an addition to the cover art or a second trailer. An added feature, not a replacement. 

[jellobell]

Clonedzero wrote...

but a new player wouldnt be able to tell the difference between for example ashley being part of the cover or femshep. if she's helmeted they might think she's a generic enemy goon. generally when i see a fully armored person in full mask i think generic goon, like a stormtrooper from starwars.

Then put a little blurb on the back that says something like "Create your own character, male or female". Et voila, no more confusion.

[Centauri2002]

@clonedzero: We're talking reversible covers or a picture in the corner of the artwork to suggest customisation. Sheploo would still be on every cover. And, as I suggested before, the secondary trailer could be restricted to the main website and clearly labelled as a FemShep. I don't see the problem with that.

[Shimmer_Gloom]

Hey. I created a new thread to address the fact that we have opened the discussion to ALL marketing an not just the cover art. Just an fyi.

[Clonedzero]

centauri2002 wrote...

@clonedzero: We're talking reversible covers or a picture in the corner of the artwork to suggest customisation. Sheploo would still be on every cover. And, as I suggested before, the secondary trailer could be restricted to the main website and clearly labelled as a FemShep. I don't see the problem with that.

well thats what i was talking about, make the main site very clear that you can play both genders.

i was just looking at the ME2 official website and i dont think it even mentions you can customize shepard lol.

[Ananka]

I really don't see the problem with using a unhelmeted default femshep when is ok to use an unhelmeted default sheploo.

I think a new player would be very well able to tell the difference between the main character and a side character if femshep was placed in the same manner as sheploo. There are strategies to make it very clear who is the focus on a picture. Look at the ME1 cover where they have lit up sheploo and put him in the center. Looking at that picture, do you think Garrus or Ash are the main characters? Placing femshep similarily would make it just as obvious.

I understand that for marketing reasons BW want to put sheploo on the cover to appeal to the male audience who are the most likely to buy and play the game , but IF they also want to appeal to a female audience (which I'm thinking they do) I think putting femshep on the cover in some editions, or at least as a small picture on the cover to show that shepard's gender can be selected, would be a nice idea.

Modifié par Annaka, 27 avril 2011 - 06:19 .

[Harbinger of your Destiny]

What about the players who use a male player but not sheploo? You cannot make everyone happy so you go with the iconic face and that is Sheploo. Stop whining.

[Centauri2002]

Harbinger of your Destiny wrote...

What about the players who use a male player but not sheploo? You cannot make everyone happy so you go with the iconic face and that is Sheploo. Stop whining.

Suggestions and discussion is not whining. I'm always amused when people throw that word around when they disagree with something.

Gender representation is different from individual face representation. As has been stated before, this isn't about replacing the iconic Shepard.

[Aggie Punbot]

centauri2002 wrote...

Again, you're talking about changing marketing when that's not what we're suggesting. We're talking about an addition to the cover art or a second trailer. An added feature, not a replacement. 

And you're not grasping the fact that a). making trailers costs a lot of time and money, and . people in general are complete morons. I absolutely guarantee you that if they added a 'supplemental' trailer or promotional material that featured fem Shep, a large portion of people would get confused and they'd be more likely to lose customers than gain them. It's not Bioware I blame for this attitude, it's the general public. Anyone who's worked in retail can tell you just how stupid people can be.