243 réponses à ce sujet

[Altima Darkspells]

It's an RPG.

It's just really, really fast--almost to the point where control becomes difficult. Plus with the way combat design (the design, not the actual mechanics) works it makes the game rather...bland when it comes to tactics.

Also, the button-mashing for consoles tries to trick the player.

But yeah, DA2 is an RPG that BioWare apparently really, really wanted to be an action (RPG) game.

[Halo Quea]

I've played better RPGs than DA2, and I've played better action games than DA2.

And THIS is the issue. By not being great at either, it only manages to be a fair gaming experience. When you factor in cartoonish sword play, exploding bodies, staffs that sounds like zapping lasers, nerfed classes, regurgitated levels, teleporting, sky dropping, repeated ambushing and painfully diminished role playing elements.................DA2 only manages to be a mediocre experience.

As I've said in previous threads, the big brilliant minds at EA/Bioware should have NEVER put a #2 after the title of this game. They should have called it DA: Champion of Kirkwall or the DA: The Fall of Kirkwall, charged $40 dollars for it and called it an expansion. DA fans would have happily played it and never complained because they would know that a true sequel to Origins was coming, a game worthy of the #2. But that's not the way EA/Bioware played it.

If this is the future of RPGs I'll probably be one of the more unhappy gamers out there. I'm not asking for a call to classic role playing, but don't produce a game that doesn't make it either as an action or an RPG and expect gamers to line up at midnight or enthusiastically place pre-orders months in advance for it.

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

I feel that the term "RPG" is an umbrella term as opposed to be a specific one.

Action RPGs are not a whole different genre to RPGs, or even a "hybrid" between Action games and RPGs. They are a subset of RPGs with a particular focus or particular elements. You played any Action game like Diablo or Dungeon Siege?

It would be like asking what nationality the Pope was and someone tells you that he's European. Well, yes. He's European, but that's not exactly specific, now is it?

An RPG is a game whereupon you play a role where your choices and character skills have a significant impact on gameplay and/or narrative.

Does Dragon Age 2 fit the bill? Yes.

It's an RPG.

Now, if you said "What kind of RPG is Dragon Age 2?", then we could have a better discussion.

Modifié par mrcrusty, 03 mai 2011 - 07:50 .

[WazzuMan]

^ I prefer to think of it as a unique experience. If we expected the same thing from every game in a genre than Killzone 3 would have been just another COD game (boring) instead of awesome.

Sure, DA2 is more "action-oriented" than its predecessor and for that fact I like it a bit more. It was less, but I found more quality in the environments (though re-used a lot), the characters, the conversations, plus how the game to me from nobody to a badass. It is not the best game out there, true enough, but maybe that's the point.

From one game alone you think you know everything there is to know about what makes a great Dragon Age game but that is not the case, especially for the developers. They want to do better, make better games, games that more people can enjoy. That might lean more to your favour or mine or both of us or someone else entirely. We all have different tastes. There were some issues with the game that the devs themselves can admit to including the reused maps and diminished roleplaying elements but you got to give them a chance. Working to please as many people as possible, especially those as different as you and I, is extremely challenging and maybe next to impossible. But they'll try anyway. I would.

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

WazzuMan wrote...

^ I prefer to think of it as a unique experience. If we expected the same thing from every game in a genre than Killzone 3 would have been just another COD game (boring) instead of awesome.

Not sure I understand, can you elaborate on what you mean by unique experience?

[WazzuMan]

^ I'd have like to think of it as a half-hearted joke but I suppose there is something to it. To compete in a genre with thousands of titles is a very competitive and doesn't always wield the best results or gain much attention from the average player. To get ahead, it pays to be more creative, to think outside the box, to make the game more interesting. Killzone isn't the best example so let's look at the critically successful Heavy Rain. I'm not sure there is a game genre that properly suits it but essentially you took these four different characters and through your own choices decided how the story unfolded. The result was a game with 17 different character-specific endings, many are the most dramatic scenes I've ever witnessed anywhere. That game drew me for being something entirely unique to any other game I've played and I suspect it will be many year before it is knocked off my personal Top 10 list.

In saying that, I was suggesting that Bioware is attempting to make a game that appeals to both RPG fans of the PC and console gamers who are used to action, responsiveness and more importantly quality in everything from gameplay to appearance. For example, I as a console gamer hated how in DA:O it sometimes took five seconds before my character did anything, if at all. And the graphics made me want to puke sometimes especially compared to games like Uncharted.

Its just like what I was saying in my previous post, it is difficult to please everybody but that doesn't mean they shouldn't try. They should most definitely try. I lose respect for companies and people who don't try to be better, including myself. I hate myself if I don't strive to be better and feel pride when I do.

Modifié par WazzuMan, 03 mai 2011 - 08:24 .

[mykeme]

Genres are useless because they only define the general direction of the game. No one genre, no matter how complex the name is can pin down how a game plays and feels, e.g. action RPG third person shooter games can still vary enough to warrant a thread like this.

I prefer to look at it this way - if Fallout 2 was an RPG (and it certainly was), then Dragon Age 2 doesn't deserve that title. Now, how it was *marketed* and under what category it appears on Steam is a different thing, a) because there are only so many categories and because I agree that DA2, no matter how streamlined, is still closer to RPG than FPS.

Don't get me wrong - Bioware would call it an FPS if it meant more sales. In this case, though, they called it RPG because they wanted to grab some of the CoD crowd without simultaneously alienating the core fanbase. We all know how that turned out.

Modifié par mykeme, 03 mai 2011 - 08:34 .

[WazzuMan]

You are so cynical, is there any company you do not trash for the sake of it. So ready to believe that Bioware is just out for your money, makes me wonder what your attitude to your own work is. Are you just working so you have money for your precious games or do you enjoy what you do.

Whatever your opinions of the game and the company, Bioware didn't just sit in a ditch and fart the game out, they spent many long hours into developing it and judging by the improved detail in the game alone they were definitely putting quite a bit of effort in it. Some gameplay elements may have suffered a bit while making the game more accessible but finding that balance can be tricky.

The game was reviewed, and it scored pretty well and I know I'm not the only one out there that liked Dragon Age 2. It may not have been Game of the Year material but someone at Bioware is doing something right and I and many others encourage them.

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

Actually, it's pretty obvious that Dragon Age 2 was rushed to make more money. Not necessarily by Bioware, but by EA. The company that owns Bioware.

There are many areas of the game that could've used improvement with more time. Either Bioware didn't have the time to solve these problems and issues, or they couldn't be bothered.

I'm being an optimist in thinking that Bioware was rushed.

Inon Zur, the game's musical composer, admitted it in an interview with IGN.

No need to be angry about it. Just a fact of life. A lot of games are rushed.

Modifié par mrcrusty, 03 mai 2011 - 09:38 .

[Bio-Age]

Action? Please this game is a bore compared to God of War, Darksiders, Bayonette, and all the other great action games out there.

Best classification for it would be RPG Lite.

Modifié par Bio-Age, 03 mai 2011 - 09:50 .

[Rawgrim]

Its an action game with lots of conversations.

[Cutlasskiwi]

I call it an RPG.

But I've seen BioWare devs call it an action RPG, both with DA2 and Origins.

[JusticarDoom]

DA:O was pretty RPG. Amazing Game...
DA2 is more action oriented.

It's odd really. Because ME's story was amazing then ME2s story was really boring and its the same with the two dragon age games

[Skilled Seeker]

Its a game that tries to be both a CRPG and action RPG. I will repeat, Bioware is better off bringing back JE as their action RPG franchise and returning DA to its CRPG roots. Everyone is happy, everyone wins.

[88mphSlayer]

action rpg's usually don't have roll of the dice combat or require you to press a button to enter combat

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

88mphSlayer wrote...

action rpg's usually don't have roll of the dice combat or require you to press a button to enter combat

Diablo, Dungeon Siege, etc?

You know, the Action RPG staples?

Must as well repost my thoughts on this:

I see an Action RPG as an RPG with either a focus on combat with little deviation as the primary gameplay device. Even though Origins had a lot of combat for example, you could still use other skills that mattered from a gameplay perspective. Persuasion, Intimidation, Stealing, Crafting, etc. DA 2 is either dialogue (with no character skills) or combat.

Or a combat system that focuses on player skill above character skill. This is where games like VtmB, Witcher and
New Vegas fall. Depsite having depth in it's RPG elements, the player > character or player = character combat system is not the player < character system which RPGs traditionally have.

According to that, Dragon Age 2 is an Action RPG.

It could also fall under a Story Driven RPG category.

Modifié par mrcrusty, 03 mai 2011 - 01:18 .

[AkiKishi]

mrcrusty wrote...

88mphSlayer wrote...

action rpg's usually don't have roll of the dice combat or require you to press a button to enter combat

Diablo, Dungeon Siege, etc?

You know, the Action RPG staples?

It looks like he missed mode off the end. Take DA , you can click like a madman but it does nothing until background clock and click coincide.

[88mphSlayer]

BobSmith101 wrote...

mrcrusty wrote...

88mphSlayer wrote...

action rpg's usually don't have roll of the dice combat or require you to press a button to enter combat

Diablo, Dungeon Siege, etc?

You know, the Action RPG staples?

It looks like he missed mode off the end. Take DA , you can click like a madman but it does nothing until background clock and click coincide.

what he said

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

Fair enough. They still do have dice roll based combat though, last I remembered.

In any case, I don't see Action RPG and RPG being two different types of games. I see Action RPG as a sub genre within RPGs.

Modifié par mrcrusty, 03 mai 2011 - 01:30 .

[Cutlass Jack]

mrcrusty wrote...
DA 2 is either dialogue (with no character skills) or combat.

The part you may not realize is that the conversational skills are still there. You're just not seeing them. Nor 'spending points' on them. You build your skill by building your Hawke's personality. How good they do at Diplomacy/Charm/Intimidate is based on how you play. DiploHawke can succeed at Diplomacy options the other personalites can not. WittyHawke does best at Charm persuasions. AggroHawke does best at Intimidating.

Which, in my opinion, makes for a somewhat 'truer' sense of roleplay. Since its how you actually roleplay your Hawke that determines success. Not arbitrary skill point expenditure.

But, its the game's fault for not explaining the personality system meaningfully to the player. By hiding it so well many don't realize its there at all. I would have missed it if I hadn't seen the same scenes playing out on my wife's game and watching her succeed/fail at things I did the reverse.

[simonc4175]

Skilled Seeker wrote...

Its a game that tries to be both a CRPG and action RPG. I will repeat, Bioware is better off bringing back JE as their action RPG franchise and returning DA to its CRPG roots. Everyone is happy, everyone wins.

As long as we don't end up with a mute, emotionless zombie of a player character,  the slow combat of DA:O and the 20 year old dialog system then I'll be fine with CRPG for DA3 otherwise not everyone wins.

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

mrcrusty wrote...
DA 2 is either dialogue (with no character skills) or combat.

The part you may not realize is that the conversational skills are still there. You're just not seeing them. Nor 'spending points' on them. You build your skill by building your Hawke's personality. How good they do at Diplomacy/Charm/Intimidate is based on how you play. DiploHawke can succeed at Diplomacy options the other personalites can not. WittyHawke does best at Charm persuasions. AggroHawke does best at Intimidating.

Which, in my opinion, makes for a somewhat 'truer' sense of roleplay. Since its how you actually roleplay your Hawke that determines success. Not arbitrary skill point expenditure.

But, its the game's fault for not explaining the personality system meaningfully to the player. By hiding it so well many don't realize its there at all. I would have missed it if I hadn't seen the same scenes playing out on my wife's game and watching her succeed/fail at things I did the reverse.

Didn't think about it that way. But is it still as prevalent as in Origins?

That's how Alpha Protocol did things too. Conversation, NPC interaction, characters, plot, choices and consequences were so awesome in that game. Runs rings around Dragon Age 2's comparatively primitive dialogue system and glaring linearity. God dammit, why did everything else about AP have to be so awful?

But that no character skills was just an aside comment really. I was talking about the emphasis of gameplay being on dialog or combat, and dialog is just a pre-cursor to combat a lot of the time. Origins had a nifty amount of other character skills that had an impact on gameplay. Sometimes minor, sometimes significant, but the focus wasn't always on combat when it came to gameplay. Crafting, Trap-Making, Stealing. Some other gameplay elements that don't directly relate to combat that are tied to character skills in Origins. Unlike Dragon Age 2.

http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Skills

Modifié par mrcrusty, 03 mai 2011 - 01:43 .

[AkiKishi]

mrcrusty wrote...

Cutlass Jack wrote...

mrcrusty wrote...
DA 2 is either dialogue (with no character skills) or combat.

The part you may not realize is that the conversational skills are still there. You're just not seeing them. Nor 'spending points' on them. You build your skill by building your Hawke's personality. How good they do at Diplomacy/Charm/Intimidate is based on how you play. DiploHawke can succeed at Diplomacy options the other personalites can not. WittyHawke does best at Charm persuasions. AggroHawke does best at Intimidating.

Which, in my opinion, makes for a somewhat 'truer' sense of roleplay. Since its how you actually roleplay your Hawke that determines success. Not arbitrary skill point expenditure.

But, its the game's fault for not explaining the personality system meaningfully to the player. By hiding it so well many don't realize its there at all. I would have missed it if I hadn't seen the same scenes playing out on my wife's game and watching her succeed/fail at things I did the reverse.

Didn't think about it that way. But is it still as prevalent as in Origins?

That's how Alpha Protocol did things too. Conversation, NPC interaction, characters, plot, choices and consequences were so awesome in that game. Runs rings around Dragon Age 2's comparatively primitive dialogue system and glaring linearity. God dammit, why did everything else about AP have to be so awful?

But that no character skills was just an aside comment really. I was talking about the emphasis of gameplay being on dialog or combat, and dialog is just a pre-cursor to combat a lot of the time. Origins had a nifty amount of other character skills that had an impact on gameplay. Sometimes minor, sometimes significant, but the focus wasn't always on combat when it came to gameplay. It was mostly on combat, but you could do other things. Unlike Dragon Age 2.

http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Skills

I can only think of 3 places I avoided combat in DA2.

Alpha Protocol?The curse of Obsidian all their games turn out that way to some extent or other.

[Cutlass Jack]

Don't get me wrong. I do love skills in Roleplay games. I play rogues which is usually the 'skill' class.

Bioware's current design direction (both in ME2 and DA2) they seem to be moving away from making people spend skill type points on things everyone usually goes the same way on. Like its almost a given that every DAO warden maxes out their Persuasion skills eventually, but makes their followers burn points on Crafting so they don't have to.

I guess I see their point, but I did like having the skills and building them.

Non-combat quest resolutions are sadly lacking in DA2 though. Which is a a sad thing. I'm hoping they don't make that mistake next time around.

Modifié par Cutlass Jack, 03 mai 2011 - 01:46 .

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

New Vegas is great outside of the bugs and I have hope for Dungeon Siege 3. It looks as if Dungeon Siege 3 will have about the same level of depth as Dragon Age 2. Lol.

Anyways, opinion on Dragon Age 2 is still that of an Action RPG. It's simply too focused on combat. When games like Icewind Dale, the Witcher, the Gothics and even VtM freaking B are considered Action RPGs, I cannot for the life of me understand why Dragon Age 2 would not be put into that category. It's not like it's a bad thing to be an Action RPG.

It's still an RPG, just a specific type of RPG that focuses on combat as the primary gameplay device or if the combat system is player, not skill based.

It certainly does not offer the free reign and non combat based gameplay that non Action wRPGs typically have. Fallout, Planescape, Arcanum, BG 2 and even KotOR had more variety in gameplay.

The Sunry Trial, the Murder Investigation on Dantooine in KotOR were very enjoyable, as an example.

Sprinkle a few of those around, add stealing & types of crafting back, get a few quests focusing on those elements, make more quests (including some important ones) in DA 2 solvable w/o violence (complete pacifist quest) and I'd say that would be enough to make it non Action.

Modifié par mrcrusty, 03 mai 2011 - 01:58 .