58 réponses à ce sujet

[Damar Stiehl]

Yaaay! Another "nerf mages NAO!" thread! ENCHANTMENT!!!

[deathwing200]

I hear normal difficulty is where it's at.

[GravityParade]

Yea, also while we're on this topic -- You guys ever notice in Megaman 6 that Bizzard Man's special weapon is totally OP against Plant Man? I can like 4 shot Plant Man with Blizzard Man's special weapon but liek if I try to beat Plant Man with Wind Man's special weapon it totally suxorz. Ballance issues FTL!

[Kolaris8472]

I'm normally not one to say Mages should be nerfed...its a single player game after all. Buff the other classes.



But in the OPs case I would make an exception, as for whatever reason (obvious class bias cough) he feels the imbalance is justified, and that excuses people who play as a Warrior or Rogue feeling about as heroic as the elfroot and flask of water that makes up all their usefulness in combat - nerf away, I say.

[Nerhesi]

sugasugaki wrote...

Nerhesi wrote...

Balance, due to the lack of a multiplayer element, should not having anything to do with comparing the classes to one another.

Balance isn't a word exclusive to multiplayer, sorry. One-shotting a boss is an obvious balance issue.

So it is would be perfectly fine to have a Gakxzang 1-shottable boss, if there existed other bosses out there with no mana pool and 95% spell resist for example. That would be, logically balanced.

Uh, the existence of other bosses without a mana pool is completely irrelevant as to whether a specific encounter is balanced. Sorry, you're not employing logic--you're employing the logical fallacy of a red herring.

I'll help you understand since you're very confused at the moment.

Balance issues do not mean anything unless you consider the context.  There is no such thing as a "generic Balance issue" or principle to be applied to all games.  One-shotting a boss is not a balance issue considering if you don't consider my rogue walking up to a caster boss, and soloing him with no life lost due to 90%+ spell resist, a balance issue.

It is obvious your idea of balance, based on your first statement, is comparing the effectiveness of your character vs another.  Considering you are never in competition with "another character", as there is no multiplayer element (PvP or even Co-op) the basis of your argument is flawed.

As to the second point, in trying to look clever using the term red herring (which you misuse because you misread my point), you come across as very obtuse.  Read it again, mana pool is not the main point of argument there. Hell, a 20k point mana pool would still not change my point there had you read the entire statement.

Sam W.

Modifié par Nerhesi, 19 novembre 2009 - 05:40 .

[Nerhesi]

deathwing200 wrote...

I hear normal difficulty is where it's at.

Because I wouldn't be able to 1-shot him on Nightmare doing the exact same thing.

You're a genius.

Sam W.

[deathwing200]

Nerhesi wrote...

deathwing200 wrote...

I hear normal difficulty is where it's at.

Because I wouldn't be able to 1-shot him on Nightmare doing the exact same thing.

You're a genius.

Sam W.

Exactly. Therefore anything that can be done on lower difficulties can be safely ignored, since you can't do it on difficulties that matter.

[sugasugaki]

Nerhesi wrote...

I'll help you understand since you're very confused at the moment.

Nice! You were talking about logic but opened your post with an immediate ad hominem fallacy. So much for logic...

It is obvious your idea of balance, based on your first statement, is comparing the effectiveness of your character vs another.  Considering you are never in competition with "another character", as there is no multiplayer element (PvP or even Co-op) the basis of your argument is flawed.

What's obvious is that you didn't comprehend my post. Where did I say balance is relative to other party members? No, in this case balance is defined by the nature of the encounter (a boss) and the ease by which the boss is killed (one shot). By that vein, if a 2h warrior is able to kill a mage boss by a single crit, that too would be unbalanced. How other classes stack up is completely irrelevant. The underlying presumption is that a boss shouldn't be a trivial encounter, and any single ability that makes it incredibly trivial is a game imbalance and flaw.

You're probably playing too much WoW if you think "balance" is a definition strictly defined by a class' strength relative to a different class. Thought it was obvious, but that's a non-issue because this is a single-player game. Balance in this context means the difficulty of encounters. A competent game designer would also balance using the "normal" mode. Saying the boss can't be one-shotted in Nightmare is again irrelevant.

Modifié par sugasugaki, 19 novembre 2009 - 05:49 .

[Bronyaux]

sugasugaki wrote...
Balance isn't a word exclusive to multiplayer, sorry. One-shotting a boss is an obvious balance issue.

Not only is it not obvious, but I don't understand how this is a balance issue at all. I don't see why you even care. Guess what, I killed Gaxkang as a mage, and I didn't one-shot him or even use mana clash. In fact it was a challenging fight. Guess what, I'm playing my second time through as a rogue.

The reason you balance multiplayer is so players can't exploit balance issues against other players. In a single player game, the only person you are hurting by exploiting is yourself. If the OP wants to one-shot gaxkang, why does it even matter to you? Why is balance important in this case? This is what I can't comprehend.
Console commands are "imbalanced" as well in that case, do you want those removed?
The toolset can easily imbalance the game. Is that a problem? I sure hope you haven't downloaded the storage mod or the respec mod, cause that's definitely breaking "balance". Or is this a double standard thing?

[Skellimancer]

Bronyaux wrote...

sugasugaki wrote...
Balance isn't a word exclusive to multiplayer, sorry. One-shotting a boss is an obvious balance issue.

Not only is it not obvious, but I don't understand how this is a balance issue at all. I don't see why you even care. Guess what, I killed Gaxkang as a mage, and I didn't one-shot him or even use mana clash. In fact it was a challenging fight. Guess what, I'm playing my second time through as a rogue.

The reason you balance multiplayer is so players can't exploit balance issues against other players. In a single player game, the only person you are hurting by exploiting is yourself. If the OP wants to one-shot gaxkang, why does it even matter to you? Why is balance important in this case? This is what I can't comprehend.
Console commands are "imbalanced" as well in that case, do you want those removed?
The toolset can easily imbalance the game. Is that a problem? I sure hope you haven't downloaded the storage mod or the respec mod, cause that's definitely breaking "balance". Or is this a double standard thing?

Its bad design, very bad in fact.

[sugasugaki]

Bronyaux wrote...

The reason you balance multiplayer is so players can't exploit balance issues against other players. In a single player game, the only person you are hurting by exploiting is yourself. If the OP wants to one-shot gaxkang, why does it even matter to you? Why is balance important in this case? This is what I can't comprehend.
Console commands are "imbalanced" as well in that case, do you want those removed?
The toolset can easily imbalance the game. Is that a problem? I sure hope you haven't downloaded the storage mod or the respec mod, cause that's definitely breaking "balance". Or is this a double standard thing?

Modifying the game or cheating using console commands is a completely different matter from a design flaw. One-shotting a boss to me is a design flaw, and is the developer's fault. Cheating in a game is a choice you make, not the developer's. How can a toolset be imbalanced? My god.

[Nerhesi]

[quote]deathwing200 wrote...

[quote]Nerhesi wrote...

[quote]deathwing200 wrote...

I hear normal difficulty is where it's at.[/quote]

Because I wouldn't be able to 1-shot him on Nightmare doing the exact same thing.

You're a genius.

Sam W.


/quote]

Exactly. Therefore anything that can be done on lower difficulties can be safely ignored, since you can't do it on difficulties that matter.

[/quote]
[/quote]
[/quote]

First - I'd like to point out you guys missed the sarcasm. The outcome
wouldn't be different on nightmare - you're debuffing their resists,
then one-shotting them. Sure your chance of landing it may go from like
60% to 30%... but when it does go off- it'll happen.

Also - you realise you guys are saying "Balanced on Nightmare but not Balance on Normal? sounds good to me."

Doesn't sound ludicrous at all, no no. Very rational.

Modifié par Nerhesi, 19 novembre 2009 - 05:57 .

[Nerhesi]

Skellimancer wrote...

Bronyaux wrote...

sugasugaki wrote...
Balance isn't a word exclusive to multiplayer, sorry. One-shotting a boss is an obvious balance issue.

Not only is it not obvious, but I don't understand how this is a balance issue at all. I don't see why you even care. Guess what, I killed Gaxkang as a mage, and I didn't one-shot him or even use mana clash. In fact it was a challenging fight. Guess what, I'm playing my second time through as a rogue.

The reason you balance multiplayer is so players can't exploit balance issues against other players. In a single player game, the only person you are hurting by exploiting is yourself. If the OP wants to one-shot gaxkang, why does it even matter to you? Why is balance important in this case? This is what I can't comprehend.
Console commands are "imbalanced" as well in that case, do you want those removed?
The toolset can easily imbalance the game. Is that a problem? I sure hope you haven't downloaded the storage mod or the respec mod, cause that's definitely breaking "balance". Or is this a double standard thing?

Its bad design, very bad in fact.

Exactly. Bad design. Not some sort of "This is a problem because it is
crazy compared to rogue/warrior/whatever...", no, "This is a problem
because it makes a part of the game ludicrously simple. Period."

[Nerhesi]

Crawling_Chaos wrote...

They could have gone the classic RPG route and made bosses completely resistant to basically every spell in the game.

I was actually very surprised when spells like hexes and winterfrost were actually working against bosses.

You guys are getting closer and closer.

You see - the DIRECT opposite scenario (what you described) is not a Balance issue. See what that tells you? That this isn't one either. It is bad design.

If my Mage couldn't land spells on 90% of the bosses because of high resists, I would not be screaming for balance and calling out warriors/rogues. I would be pointing out the fact that my enjoyment, in playing a mage, is severely diminished.

Sam W.

[Marionetten]

Spirit mages ( who we could and should consider the true anti-mage mages of this game ) are awesome against mages. Who would have guessed?

If anything I'd like to see specializations brought back in to discourage people from cherry picking spells.

Crawling_Chaos wrote...

They could have gone the classic RPG route and made bosses completely resistant to basically every spell in the game.

And made every boss fight a complete borefest. No, I'm glad they didn't. I've always hated how bosses somehow play by completely different rules.

[Bronyaux]

Skellimancer wrote...

Its bad design, very bad in fact.

That makes a lot more sense to me.

For
the record, I'm not opposed to fixing Mana Clash or fixing Gaxkang or
whatever the best solution is. I'd rather be able to use Mana Clash
rather than avoid using it cause it's too good. But the talk of
"balance" is out of control. For example, "Nerf mages" compared to "Fix Mana Clash" looks a lot different.

I would actually argue that console cheating is very applicable. Anyone can make themselves immortal, which would also make Gaxkang trivial. You make the same choice not to use cheat codes as you do not to use Mana Clash. The only difference is if you can rationalize to yourself that one-shotting possibly the hardest boss in the game isn't cheating, but then that's a whole different story.

I mean think about it. Most single player games have cheat codes. You either cheat or you don't, cause you enjoy actually playing the game. If you're going to exploit stuff like one-shotting Gax, then you're one of the first crowd. You can just as easily not and enjoy the fight. I couldn't care less what anyone does in their game, it only matters to me what I choose to do in mine.

[wrdnshprd]

guys.. this spell only works on casters... and it also removes all mana from the character casting the spell (if you want the maximum effect that is).. so this is VERY situational.. also, if i remember correctly, its a 5th tier skill. its not that bad honest

Modifié par wrdnshprd, 19 novembre 2009 - 06:06 .

[sugasugaki]

wrdnshprd wrote...

guys.. this spell only works on casters... and it also removes all mana from the character casting the spell (if you want the maximum effect that is).. so this is VERY situational.. also, if i remember correctly, its a 5th tier skill. its not that bad honest

Again, situational doesn't mean the *ability* is imbalanced. If a warrior had a situational ability that one-shots a boss, that would be imbalanced.

As far as "nerf mages" it's pretty obvious they do need nerfing--that, or some of the lackluster specs brought up to par. While I'm sure it's fun to AOE kill everything within 5 seconds, it's poor QA and design implementation.

[daguest]

they should also nerf chain lightning. 20dmg on first target without Friendly fire is awesome. You can expect one shot SEVERAL rats !

Nerf mana clash and i stop playing my mage, there is no pvp or multiplayer in DA, who care that i one shot spellcaster ? And as said before, it's very situational, you don't one shot a warrior as a caster. there is also arrow of slaying which make awesome damage (450 on my leliana), and a 2h warrior have a lot of armor and do a lot of damage.

Nerf is for mmos and multiplayer games, boost is for solo game.

[Falklol]

Kolaris8472 wrote...

I'm normally not one to say Mages should be nerfed...its a single player game after all. Buff the other classes.
 

Indeed, give Warriors and Rogues a damage buff, not too much though, and not at all so they're at par with Mages, mages are supposed to be incredibly powerful, but I still think Rogues and Warriors are a bit weaK DPS-wise, they should get a SLIGHT damage increase, the game is already hard so it wont make it too easy either.