192 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
]And both rape and making love are just having sex with someone. Perfectly identical!

That's a completely different subject, but whatever.

Same sort of (lack of) differentiation.

[Malanek]

In the party banter thread I wrote a couple of Jacob/Thane conversations a few months ago on this subject. One assuming male shep one femshep.

Jacob: So Thane...you seem to be very good at shooting people in the back. But then I guess you've had a lot of practice at it.
Thane: That has been my life's path.
Jacob: Enough with the spiritual bullS***. Everyone makes their own choice and everyone is responsible for their own actions.
Thane: I never claimed I am not responsible. Tell me, why do you disapprove of me but not the others? Shepard is a killer but you willingly follow him.
Jacob: Damn right, I'd follow him to hell and back. But there's a difference, his enemies can see it coming. They have a chance to fight back.
Thane: There is no difference. Where Shepard walks Amonkira walks close behind. His enemies stand no more chance than if they were blind and deaf.

J: You know, I'm struggling to see what the commander sees in you.
T: Your jealousy does you no credit.
J: I'm not jealous, I just don't like you.
T: I've noticed.
J: At first it was just about how you would stab people in the back. I don't like that. But as I got to know you, I began to like you even less, you almost make my father look good.
T: I grow tired of your jealous accusations, I have not harmed an entire crew under my responsibility.
J: Let me tell you about responsibility! As a father you should have been responsible for your son. But you abandoned him as a child at the same time he lost his mother. At least my father raised me before he became an a**hole.
T: I have never sought to excuse my blame with Koylat but I am trying to make amends.
J: Are you? Are you really? Your son is on the Citadel paying his dues while you're sneaking up to the captains cabin every night. First you claimed stopping the collectors was too important. But we've done that, we passed through Omega 5 and came back. And you're still here. For someone who keeps claiming not to make excuses, you sure make a damn lot of 'em.
[pause]
T: You are correct, and it shames me. Excuse me, I must inform Shepard the time has come for me to take my leave.

[kaimanaMM]

Fat Headed Wolf wrote...

The title of this thread made me think of "Joanie Loves Chachi". Which, of course, made me think of Jacob and Thane in a sitcom called "Jacob Hates Thane". Which, of course, made me picture them standing back to back with their arms folded as the title of said show appeared beneath them as 80's music played. Which, of course, made me think of an episode I would make up which would have Thane steal Jacob's girl, only to have them realize their friendship is more important in the end.

Where am I?

Be my valentine?  <3

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Fat Headed Wolf wrote...

The title of this thread made me think of "Joanie Loves Chachi". Which, of course, made me think of Jacob and Thane in a sitcom called "Jacob Hates Thane". Which, of course, made me picture them standing back to back with their arms folded as the title of said show appeared beneath them as 80's music played. Which, of course, made me think of an episode I would make up which would have Thane steal Jacob's girl, only to have them realize their friendship is more important in the end.

Where am I?

Wherever you are, I want to go to there.

Also, at the end, when they go to break up with her, they find out she has already run off with Garrus. Who is dressed like the Fonz, and also has a motorcycle.

/cue wacky incidental music.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 26 avril 2011 - 10:22 .

[2kgnsiika]

While I think Thane's "my body made me do it" philosophy is utter bull****, I've always wanted to tell Jacob to get the hell out of the room while the adults are talking.

[PrinceLionheart]

Someone With Mass wrote...

mrsph wrote...

Always felt like a confrontation got cut out at some point between those two.

Which isn't a bad thing if you ask me. The ship was turning into a damn whine house.

It would've been OOC for Jacob anyway. He's the one sane Squadmate. 

[Dark_Caduceus]

Someone With Mass wrote...

ADLegend21 wrote...
Jacob works for Cerberus because they're fighting the reapers. Once htey stop doing that he's gone. He quit's along with Miranda should you decide to blow the base up. so no, he's not a hypocrite. (he also saves the councils with Cerberus).

And you think there's absolutely no killing involved in that goal?

Pfff, please...

Assumedly Jacob feels justified because he's largely killing mercenaries and slavers as opposed to killing whichever target has the biggest paycheck associated with him/her, I'm not necessarily defending his position, but I understand why he would distrust Thane on impulse.

[PrinceLionheart]

Dark_Caduceus wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

ADLegend21 wrote...
Jacob works for Cerberus because they're fighting the reapers. Once htey stop doing that he's gone. He quit's along with Miranda should you decide to blow the base up. so no, he's not a hypocrite. (he also saves the councils with Cerberus).

And you think there's absolutely no killing involved in that goal?

Pfff, please...

Assumedly Jacob feels justified because he's largely killing mercenaries and slavers as opposed to killing whichever target has the biggest paycheck associated with him/her, I'm not necessarily defending his position, but I understand why he would distrust Thane on impulse.

Seriousy, the idea that Thane kills isn't what bothers Jacob. It's the fact that he, as an Assassin/Merc, would kill anyone if the money is right. That they have no moral standards whatsoever. It isn't until you get to know Thane afterwards that you learn otherwise. Just the same, I also find his "It was my body"  belief to be total Bull****.

[100k]

Malanek999 wrote...

In the party banter thread I wrote a couple of Jacob/Thane conversations a few months ago on this subject. One assuming male shep one femshep.

Jacob: So Thane...you seem to be very good at shooting people in the back. But then I guess you've had a lot of practice at it.
Thane: That has been my life's path.
Jacob: Enough with the spiritual bullS***. Everyone makes their own choice and everyone is responsible for their own actions.
Thane: I never claimed I am not responsible. Tell me, why do you disapprove of me but not the others? Shepard is a killer but you willingly follow him.
Jacob: Damn right, I'd follow him to hell and back. But there's a difference, his enemies can see it coming. They have a chance to fight back.
Thane: There is no difference. Where Shepard walks Amonkira walks close behind. His enemies stand no more chance than if they were blind and deaf.

J: You know, I'm struggling to see what the commander sees in you.
T: Your jealousy does you no credit.
J: I'm not jealous, I just don't like you.
T: I've noticed.
J: At first it was just about how you would stab people in the back. I don't like that. But as I got to know you, I began to like you even less, you almost make my father look good.
T: I grow tired of your jealous accusations, I have not harmed an entire crew under my responsibility.
J: Let me tell you about responsibility! As a father you should have been responsible for your son. But you abandoned him as a child at the same time he lost his mother. At least my father raised me before he became an a**hole.
T: I have never sought to excuse my blame with Koylat but I am trying to make amends.
J: Are you? Are you really? Your son is on the Citadel paying his dues while you're sneaking up to the captains cabin every night. First you claimed stopping the collectors was too important. But we've done that, we passed through Omega 5 and came back. And you're still here. For someone who keeps claiming not to make excuses, you sure make a damn lot of 'em.
[pause]
T: You are correct, and it shames me. Excuse me, I must inform Shepard the time has come for me to take my leave.

Damn good work. It's the little fan stuff like this that really makes the characters come alive.

[100k]

PrinceLionheart wrote...

Dark_Caduceus wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

ADLegend21 wrote...
Jacob works for Cerberus because they're fighting the reapers. Once htey stop doing that he's gone. He quit's along with Miranda should you decide to blow the base up. so no, he's not a hypocrite. (he also saves the councils with Cerberus).

And you think there's absolutely no killing involved in that goal?

Pfff, please...

Assumedly Jacob feels justified because he's largely killing mercenaries and slavers as opposed to killing whichever target has the biggest paycheck associated with him/her, I'm not necessarily defending his position, but I understand why he would distrust Thane on impulse.

Seriousy, the idea that Thane kills isn't what bothers Jacob. It's the fact that he, as an Assassin/Merc, would kill anyone if the money is right. That they have no moral standards whatsoever. It isn't until you get to know Thane afterwards that you learn otherwise. Just the same, I also find his "It was my body"  belief to be total Bull****.

Why do you guys think that Thane's philosophy is bull? Thane clearly explains to Shepard that Drell minds work differently than human minds. To top it off, Drell are an alien race with a different (even if related) evolution.

Drell minds can become "disconnected". This isn't mere babble that Drell take as religious phenomenon, this is a reality. I'm guessing that even a "connected" Drell sees and feels the world differently than humans. They can endure great physical strain during work, war, or even torture, because they are able to recongnize that what makes them...them, isn't connected to the electrical impulses of the body. They are always aware that their conciousness (or soul) aren't tied to a vessal of flesh and bone. If need be, they can utilize that to their advantage.

So, while Thane can make his own decisions, blaming him for not assuming remorse for the victims he's killed makes as much sense as, say, blaming Krogan's for being naturally agressive, and spending most of their lives in merc bands doing deeds equally, if not more horrific than assassinations. We'd be applying human reasoning and comprehension to something that isn't human.

[Niddy']

I think he is mad because people would rather have a relationship with a frog person than a black guy.

[naledgeborn]

Malanek999 wrote...

In the party banter thread I wrote a couple of Jacob/Thane conversations a few months ago on this subject. One assuming male shep one femshep.

Jacob: So Thane...you seem to be very good at shooting people in the back. But then I guess you've had a lot of practice at it.
Thane: That has been my life's path.
Jacob: Enough with the spiritual bullS***. Everyone makes their own choice and everyone is responsible for their own actions.
Thane: I never claimed I am not responsible. Tell me, why do you disapprove of me but not the others? Shepard is a killer but you willingly follow him.
Jacob: Damn right, I'd follow him to hell and back. But there's a difference, his enemies can see it coming. They have a chance to fight back.
Thane: There is no difference. Where Shepard walks Amonkira walks close behind. His enemies stand no more chance than if they were blind and deaf.

J: You know, I'm struggling to see what the commander sees in you.
T: Your jealousy does you no credit.
J: I'm not jealous, I just don't like you.
T: I've noticed.
J: At first it was just about how you would stab people in the back. I don't like that. But as I got to know you, I began to like you even less, you almost make my father look good.
T: I grow tired of your jealous accusations, I have not harmed an entire crew under my responsibility.
J: Let me tell you about responsibility! As a father you should have been responsible for your son. But you abandoned him as a child at the same time he lost his mother. At least my father raised me before he became an a**hole.
T: I have never sought to excuse my blame with Koylat but I am trying to make amends.
J: Are you? Are you really? Your son is on the Citadel paying his dues while you're sneaking up to the captains cabin every night. First you claimed stopping the collectors was too important. But we've done that, we passed through Omega 5 and came back. And you're still here. For someone who keeps claiming not to make excuses, you sure make a damn lot of 'em.
[pause]
T: You are correct, and it shames me. Excuse me, I must inform Shepard the time has come for me to take my leave.

Damn, that was good.

[Volus Warlord]

Niddy' wrote...

I think he is mad because people would rather have a relationship with a frog person than a black guy.

ROFL

Femshep is raciss

[MrFob]

Actually, I think Jacobs initial reaction to Thane just fit's into the general pattern of him being a jerk to pretty much everyone you pick up. I don't get why he is present in the conference room in the first place whenever someone comes aboard.
Thane was bad but at least there he had a reason to be suspicious of an assassin. but I remember when Tali came aboard however, it looked like he really tried to provoke her. I am not a Talimancer or anything but when Jacob said to an already antagonized Tali "Don't forget to introduce yourself to the new AI.", I wanted to punch him in the face.

[naledgeborn]

Tali pushed Jacob's buttons first. She wanted to loan Shepard grenade remember?

[Dark_Caduceus]

100k wrote...

PrinceLionheart wrote...

Dark_Caduceus wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

ADLegend21 wrote...
Jacob works for Cerberus because they're fighting the reapers. Once htey stop doing that he's gone. He quit's along with Miranda should you decide to blow the base up. so no, he's not a hypocrite. (he also saves the councils with Cerberus).

And you think there's absolutely no killing involved in that goal?

Pfff, please...

Assumedly Jacob feels justified because he's largely killing mercenaries and slavers as opposed to killing whichever target has the biggest paycheck associated with him/her, I'm not necessarily defending his position, but I understand why he would distrust Thane on impulse.

Seriousy, the idea that Thane kills isn't what bothers Jacob. It's the fact that he, as an Assassin/Merc, would kill anyone if the money is right. That they have no moral standards whatsoever. It isn't until you get to know Thane afterwards that you learn otherwise. Just the same, I also find his "It was my body"  belief to be total Bull****.

Why do you guys think that Thane's philosophy is bull? Thane clearly explains to Shepard that Drell minds work differently than human minds. To top it off, Drell are an alien race with a different (even if related) evolution.

Drell minds can become "disconnected". This isn't mere babble that Drell take as religious phenomenon, this is a reality. I'm guessing that even a "connected" Drell sees and feels the world differently than humans. They can endure great physical strain during work, war, or even torture, because they are able to recongnize that what makes them...them, isn't connected to the electrical impulses of the body. They are always aware that their conciousness (or soul) aren't tied to a vessal of flesh and bone. If need be, they can utilize that to their advantage.

So, while Thane can make his own decisions, blaming him for not assuming remorse for the victims he's killed makes as much sense as, say, blaming Krogan's for being naturally agressive, and spending most of their lives in merc bands doing deeds equally, if not more horrific than assassinations. We'd be applying human reasoning and comprehension to something that isn't human.

Not sure if that was directed at me or not, nut I never said Thane's logic was bull. However, Thane would first need to prove that his consciousness or soul isn't connected to his body, as far as I know a conscious mind can't exist without a brain or assumedly it's alien counterpart...

Modifié par Dark_Caduceus, 27 avril 2011 - 01:04 .

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Also, he was nice enough to Garrus. I mean he called him a sonofa****, but in a good way.

[100k]

Dark_Caduceus wrote...

100k wrote...

PrinceLionheart wrote...

Dark_Caduceus wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

ADLegend21 wrote...
Jacob works for Cerberus because they're fighting the reapers. Once htey stop doing that he's gone. He quit's along with Miranda should you decide to blow the base up. so no, he's not a hypocrite. (he also saves the councils with Cerberus).

And you think there's absolutely no killing involved in that goal?

Pfff, please...

Assumedly Jacob feels justified because he's largely killing mercenaries and slavers as opposed to killing whichever target has the biggest paycheck associated with him/her, I'm not necessarily defending his position, but I understand why he would distrust Thane on impulse.

Seriousy, the idea that Thane kills isn't what bothers Jacob. It's the fact that he, as an Assassin/Merc, would kill anyone if the money is right. That they have no moral standards whatsoever. It isn't until you get to know Thane afterwards that you learn otherwise. Just the same, I also find his "It was my body"  belief to be total Bull****.

Why do you guys think that Thane's philosophy is bull? Thane clearly explains to Shepard that Drell minds work differently than human minds. To top it off, Drell are an alien race with a different (even if related) evolution.

Drell minds can become "disconnected". This isn't mere babble that Drell take as religious phenomenon, this is a reality. I'm guessing that even a "connected" Drell sees and feels the world differently than humans. They can endure great physical strain during work, war, or even torture, because they are able to recongnize that what makes them...them, isn't connected to the electrical impulses of the body. They are always aware that their conciousness (or soul) aren't tied to a vessal of flesh and bone. If need be, they can utilize that to their advantage.

So, while Thane can make his own decisions, blaming him for not assuming remorse for the victims he's killed makes as much sense as, say, blaming Krogan's for being naturally agressive, and spending most of their lives in merc bands doing deeds equally, if not more horrific than assassinations. We'd be applying human reasoning and comprehension to something that isn't human.

Not sure if that was directed at me or not, nut I never said Thane's logic was bull. However, Thane would first need to prove that his consciousness or soul isn't connected to his body, as far as I know a conscious mind can't exist without a brain or assumedly it's alien counterpart...

"Belief", "philosohpy", I meant the same thing. Sorry if it was vague. 

But asking Thane to prove that his consciousness/soul isn't connected to his body makes as much sense as asking me to prove that my consciousness/soul are connected to mine. 

My main point (to no one in particular) is that we're too eager to assume that Drell and humans are the same. Fundamental differences in each race make how they process and react to things make it kind of foolish to put up parallels. Shepard doesn't tell Wrex/Grunt that they should become kind and compassionate creatures, because that goes against Krogan reasoning altogether. Shepard is unable to convince Samara that her lifestyle is rather hypocritical, because, in the eyes of the Justicar and her people, punishing the wicked in a cruel and merciless way just makes sense. Likewise, I'm sure that many races see humans as equally strange and unmoral beings; with their unyielding persistence (resulting in explosive galactic expansion), short tolerance (due to short life spans), and value of individualism (which make humans even more unpredictable than most races).

Apples and oranges.

Modifié par 100k, 27 avril 2011 - 01:19 .

[Labrev]

Because Thane is his daddy.

Which is also why Ronald Taylor crashed that frigate and disappeared for 10 years.

[ADLegend21]

Niddy' wrote...

I think he is mad because people would rather have a relationship with a frog person than a black guy.

racist.

[Dark_Caduceus]

100k wrote...

Dark_Caduceus wrote...

100k wrote...

PrinceLionheart wrote...

Dark_Caduceus wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

ADLegend21 wrote...
Jacob works for Cerberus because they're fighting the reapers. Once htey stop doing that he's gone. He quit's along with Miranda should you decide to blow the base up. so no, he's not a hypocrite. (he also saves the councils with Cerberus).

And you think there's absolutely no killing involved in that goal?

Pfff, please...

Assumedly Jacob feels justified because he's largely killing mercenaries and slavers as opposed to killing whichever target has the biggest paycheck associated with him/her, I'm not necessarily defending his position, but I understand why he would distrust Thane on impulse.

Seriousy, the idea that Thane kills isn't what bothers Jacob. It's the fact that he, as an Assassin/Merc, would kill anyone if the money is right. That they have no moral standards whatsoever. It isn't until you get to know Thane afterwards that you learn otherwise. Just the same, I also find his "It was my body"  belief to be total Bull****.

Why do you guys think that Thane's philosophy is bull? Thane clearly explains to Shepard that Drell minds work differently than human minds. To top it off, Drell are an alien race with a different (even if related) evolution.

Drell minds can become "disconnected". This isn't mere babble that Drell take as religious phenomenon, this is a reality. I'm guessing that even a "connected" Drell sees and feels the world differently than humans. They can endure great physical strain during work, war, or even torture, because they are able to recongnize that what makes them...them, isn't connected to the electrical impulses of the body. They are always aware that their conciousness (or soul) aren't tied to a vessal of flesh and bone. If need be, they can utilize that to their advantage.

So, while Thane can make his own decisions, blaming him for not assuming remorse for the victims he's killed makes as much sense as, say, blaming Krogan's for being naturally agressive, and spending most of their lives in merc bands doing deeds equally, if not more horrific than assassinations. We'd be applying human reasoning and comprehension to something that isn't human.

Not sure if that was directed at me or not, nut I never said Thane's logic was bull. However, Thane would first need to prove that his consciousness or soul isn't connected to his body, as far as I know a conscious mind can't exist without a brain or assumedly it's alien counterpart...

"Belief", "philosohpy", I meant the same thing. Sorry if it was vague. 

But asking Thane to prove that his consciousness/soul isn't connected to his body makes as much sense as asking me to prove that my consciousness/soul are connected to mine. 

My main point (to no one in particular) is that we're too eager to assume that Drell and humans are the same. Fundamental differences in each race make how they process and react to things make it kind of foolish to put up parallels. Shepard doesn't tell Wrex/Grunt that they should become kind and compassionate creatures, because that goes against Krogan reasoning altogether. Shepard is unable to convince Samara that her lifestyle is rather hypocritical, because, in the eyes of the Justicar and her people, punishing the wicked in a cruel and merciless way just makes sense. Likewise, I'm sure that many races see humans as equally strange and unmoral beings; with their unyielding persistence (resulting in explosive galactic expansion), short tolerance (due to short life spans), and value of individualism (which make humans even more unpredictable than most races).

Apples and oranges.

If Thane is trying to justify a life of killing by claiming that only his body is responsible it must first be proven that his consciousness exists independent of his body. You're claiming that his actions are justified because he is a drell, I've yet to see any reason for them to be.

[100k]

Dark_Caduceus wrote...

100k wrote...

Dark_Caduceus wrote...

100k wrote...

PrinceLionheart wrote...

Dark_Caduceus wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

ADLegend21 wrote...
Jacob works for Cerberus because they're fighting the reapers. Once htey stop doing that he's gone. He quit's along with Miranda should you decide to blow the base up. so no, he's not a hypocrite. (he also saves the councils with Cerberus).

And you think there's absolutely no killing involved in that goal?

Pfff, please...

Assumedly Jacob feels justified because he's largely killing mercenaries and slavers as opposed to killing whichever target has the biggest paycheck associated with him/her, I'm not necessarily defending his position, but I understand why he would distrust Thane on impulse.

Seriousy, the idea that Thane kills isn't what bothers Jacob. It's the fact that he, as an Assassin/Merc, would kill anyone if the money is right. That they have no moral standards whatsoever. It isn't until you get to know Thane afterwards that you learn otherwise. Just the same, I also find his "It was my body"  belief to be total Bull****.

Why do you guys think that Thane's philosophy is bull? Thane clearly explains to Shepard that Drell minds work differently than human minds. To top it off, Drell are an alien race with a different (even if related) evolution.

Drell minds can become "disconnected". This isn't mere babble that Drell take as religious phenomenon, this is a reality. I'm guessing that even a "connected" Drell sees and feels the world differently than humans. They can endure great physical strain during work, war, or even torture, because they are able to recongnize that what makes them...them, isn't connected to the electrical impulses of the body. They are always aware that their conciousness (or soul) aren't tied to a vessal of flesh and bone. If need be, they can utilize that to their advantage.

So, while Thane can make his own decisions, blaming him for not assuming remorse for the victims he's killed makes as much sense as, say, blaming Krogan's for being naturally agressive, and spending most of their lives in merc bands doing deeds equally, if not more horrific than assassinations. We'd be applying human reasoning and comprehension to something that isn't human.

Not sure if that was directed at me or not, nut I never said Thane's logic was bull. However, Thane would first need to prove that his consciousness or soul isn't connected to his body, as far as I know a conscious mind can't exist without a brain or assumedly it's alien counterpart...

"Belief", "philosohpy", I meant the same thing. Sorry if it was vague. 

But asking Thane to prove that his consciousness/soul isn't connected to his body makes as much sense as asking me to prove that my consciousness/soul are connected to mine. 

My main point (to no one in particular) is that we're too eager to assume that Drell and humans are the same. Fundamental differences in each race make how they process and react to things make it kind of foolish to put up parallels. Shepard doesn't tell Wrex/Grunt that they should become kind and compassionate creatures, because that goes against Krogan reasoning altogether. Shepard is unable to convince Samara that her lifestyle is rather hypocritical, because, in the eyes of the Justicar and her people, punishing the wicked in a cruel and merciless way just makes sense. Likewise, I'm sure that many races see humans as equally strange and unmoral beings; with their unyielding persistence (resulting in explosive galactic expansion), short tolerance (due to short life spans), and value of individualism (which make humans even more unpredictable than most races).

Apples and oranges.

If Thane is trying to justify a life of killing by claiming that only his body is responsible it must first be proven that his consciousness exists independent of his body. You're claiming that his actions are justified because he is a drell, I've yet to see any reason for them to be.

If he were a human, I would hold him to the same standards that I would a human. And while intergalactic law may judge him on the rules of sentient coexistence, as an individual he is different than I am, simply because he is a Drell.

Example: 

I insult a man and tell him that he's not worth my time. The man can beat me up, kill me, or ignore me. But I'm willing to bet that he'd either ignore me, or beat me up. 

I insult a Krogan and tell him he's not worth my time. Krogan kills me. 

In both cases, the human and the Krogan go to jail. However, I understand the difference between how the two species process and react to my response.

[Niddy']

ADLegend21 wrote...
racist.

Not really, me preferring an asain woman over a black woman isn't racist.

Jacob is least liked squadmate.  Isn't because he's black. It's because the game forces him into every dialog because he is; and, he is about as interesting as a wet paper towel. 

He's Kaidan 2.0.