192 réponses à ce sujet

[AngelicMachinery]

thurmanator692 wrote...

He liked samara too.

I can't see many men who would dislike being in Samara's presence.

[ADLegend21]

Niddy' wrote...

ADLegend21 wrote...
racist.

Not really, me preferring an asain woman over a black woman isn't racist.

Jacob is least liked squadmate.  Isn't because he's black. It's because the game forces him into every dialog because he is; and, he is about as interesting as a wet paper towel. 

He's Kaidan 2.0.

Jacob's 3rd in command so when Miranda's in or not in the debriefing, he's supposed to be there, he's also in charge of he weapons so he could be taking squadmates into the armormy to outift them for combat as well. If by interesting you mean "oh Shepard, here's my problem and I'll tell you about it." then no he's boring as ****. he doesn't bother Shepard with his problems and handles them on his own, unlike the other military "professionals" (excluding Samara's because hers was a dangerous and elusive Murderer) onboard. Garrus whines about C-sec and his merc team, Thane finally mans up and becomes a good dad because he's dying. Jacob is his own person but he and Kaidan do have somethingin common, they're don't whine when things get in their way, they move past and overcome them without going to Shepard like she's a shrink.

[Stun704]

Niddy' wrote...

I think he is mad because people would rather have a relationship with a frog person than a black guy.

Hilarious.. Don't quit your day job kid, ironically Fem Shepard only acts like a dirty **** with uncontrollable lust when shes romancing Jacob.. Seems like she would prefer a black man with that logic :innocent:

Modifié par Stun704, 27 avril 2011 - 02:52 .

[Niddy']

ADLegend21 wrote...


Jacob's 3rd in command so when Miranda's in or not in the debriefing, he's supposed to be there, he's also in charge of he weapons so he could be taking squadmates into the armormy to outift them for combat as well. If by interesting you mean "oh Shepard, here's my problem and I'll tell you about it." then no he's boring as ****. he doesn't bother Shepard with his problems and handles them on his own, unlike the other military "professionals" (excluding Samara's because hers was a dangerous and elusive Murderer) onboard. Garrus whines about C-sec and his merc team, Thane finally mans up and becomes a good dad because he's dying. Jacob is his own person but he and Kaidan do have somethingin common, they're don't whine when things get in their way, they move past and overcome them without going to Shepard like she's a shrink.

XO Pressly was second in command and was never in any dialog other than looking for a landing zone at Ilos. He replaced discussions with the entire squad, which is very annoying; almost everything he says is already an understood and unnecessary.

[ADLegend21]

Niddy' wrote...

ADLegend21 wrote...


Jacob's 3rd in command so when Miranda's in or not in the debriefing, he's supposed to be there, he's also in charge of he weapons so he could be taking squadmates into the armormy to outift them for combat as well. If by interesting you mean "oh Shepard, here's my problem and I'll tell you about it." then no he's boring as ****. he doesn't bother Shepard with his problems and handles them on his own, unlike the other military "professionals" (excluding Samara's because hers was a dangerous and elusive Murderer) onboard. Garrus whines about C-sec and his merc team, Thane finally mans up and becomes a good dad because he's dying. Jacob is his own person but he and Kaidan do have somethingin common, they're don't whine when things get in their way, they move past and overcome them without going to Shepard like she's a shrink.

XO Pressly was second in command and was never in any dialog other than looking for a landing zone at Ilos. He replaced discussions with the entire squad, which is very annoying; almost everything he says is already an understood and unnecessary.

He was a Navigator. I doubt he could tell a soldier anything about their career path like Jacob could. Jacobhelped the alien crew members around the ship since oh I don't know, he know the ship inside and out? He's more likeable than Miranda so it's a natural choice that he'd be the first to greet a new squaddie with Shepard. Alot fo other squadmates have useless and unneccesary things about them, but that doesn't stop people from loving them, why should Jacob be any different?

[Kasces]

100k wrote...

Dark_Caduceus wrote...

100k wrote...

Dark_Caduceus wrote...

100k wrote...

PrinceLionheart wrote...

Dark_Caduceus wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

ADLegend21 wrote...
Jacob works for Cerberus because they're fighting the reapers. Once htey stop doing that he's gone. He quit's along with Miranda should you decide to blow the base up. so no, he's not a hypocrite. (he also saves the councils with Cerberus).

And you think there's absolutely no killing involved in that goal?

Pfff, please...

Assumedly Jacob feels justified because he's largely killing mercenaries and slavers as opposed to killing whichever target has the biggest paycheck associated with him/her, I'm not necessarily defending his position, but I understand why he would distrust Thane on impulse.

Seriousy, the idea that Thane kills isn't what bothers Jacob. It's the fact that he, as an Assassin/Merc, would kill anyone if the money is right. That they have no moral standards whatsoever. It isn't until you get to know Thane afterwards that you learn otherwise. Just the same, I also find his "It was my body"  belief to be total Bull****.

Why do you guys think that Thane's philosophy is bull? Thane clearly explains to Shepard that Drell minds work differently than human minds. To top it off, Drell are an alien race with a different (even if related) evolution.

Drell minds can become "disconnected". This isn't mere babble that Drell take as religious phenomenon, this is a reality. I'm guessing that even a "connected" Drell sees and feels the world differently than humans. They can endure great physical strain during work, war, or even torture, because they are able to recongnize that what makes them...them, isn't connected to the electrical impulses of the body. They are always aware that their conciousness (or soul) aren't tied to a vessal of flesh and bone. If need be, they can utilize that to their advantage.

So, while Thane can make his own decisions, blaming him for not assuming remorse for the victims he's killed makes as much sense as, say, blaming Krogan's for being naturally agressive, and spending most of their lives in merc bands doing deeds equally, if not more horrific than assassinations. We'd be applying human reasoning and comprehension to something that isn't human.

Not sure if that was directed at me or not, nut I never said Thane's logic was bull. However, Thane would first need to prove that his consciousness or soul isn't connected to his body, as far as I know a conscious mind can't exist without a brain or assumedly it's alien counterpart...

"Belief", "philosohpy", I meant the same thing. Sorry if it was vague. 

But asking Thane to prove that his consciousness/soul isn't connected to his body makes as much sense as asking me to prove that my consciousness/soul are connected to mine. 

My main point (to no one in particular) is that we're too eager to assume that Drell and humans are the same. Fundamental differences in each race make how they process and react to things make it kind of foolish to put up parallels. Shepard doesn't tell Wrex/Grunt that they should become kind and compassionate creatures, because that goes against Krogan reasoning altogether. Shepard is unable to convince Samara that her lifestyle is rather hypocritical, because, in the eyes of the Justicar and her people, punishing the wicked in a cruel and merciless way just makes sense. Likewise, I'm sure that many races see humans as equally strange and unmoral beings; with their unyielding persistence (resulting in explosive galactic expansion), short tolerance (due to short life spans), and value of individualism (which make humans even more unpredictable than most races).

Apples and oranges.

If Thane is trying to justify a life of killing by claiming that only his body is responsible it must first be proven that his consciousness exists independent of his body. You're claiming that his actions are justified because he is a drell, I've yet to see any reason for them to be.

If he were a human, I would hold him to the same standards that I would a human. And while intergalactic law may judge him on the rules of sentient coexistence, as an individual he is different than I am, simply because he is a Drell.

Example: 

I insult a man and tell him that he's not worth my time. The man can beat me up, kill me, or ignore me. But I'm willing to bet that he'd either ignore me, or beat me up. 

I insult a Krogan and tell him he's not worth my time. Krogan kills me. 

In both cases, the human and the Krogan go to jail. However, I understand the difference between how the two species process and react to my response.

Just to chime in...
Your Krogan example assumes all Krogan would kill for simply being insulted imo.

The Krogan you can provoke during Samara's mission and a bunch of others prove this false. In fact, you can outright try to insult that Krogan and he ignores you unless it's a Renegade/ red-colored dialogue.

While it is an interesting philosophy, the whole "body did it, not me"  business is BS because Thane tells his body what to do. The body doesn't just accept the contract while Thane watches third person during the assasinations. Thane's making excuses behind theoretical philosophy (and you can't pursue this convo further) aka what doesn't apply in real life. If that was the case, why stop Kolyat if Drell just "work" that way?

[Alpha-Centuri]

Jacob suffers from a case of being normal. He is relatively drama-free like a previous poster mentioned. He isn't on trial for treason, he isn't hunting a guy who betrayed his former squad, etc. He is simply a biotic soldier who is good at what he does. He's emotionally stable, and doesn't need Shepard.

Now that I think about it, Every single character besides Jacob is broken inside, and has Shepard picking up the pieces. He doesn't need anything for Shepard, and I think that's why he is disliked so much. (Oh yeah, then there are the people who hate him because Jennifer Hale did a terrible job in her voice acting when interacting with him. Also, Priiize was so corny)

On my femshep, I get the feeling that he's the only one that actually cares about Shepard among the other potential LI's.  

Related:
Here's a short video. Great quality editing. 

Edit: On topic: Thane is an assassin, and assassins kill anyone for money. People (generally) know who soldiers kill. 

Jacob welcomes Samara, Garrus, and Tali with open arms. Tali lashes out at him, and he remains civil. What those three have in common is that they all have clear enemies. Thane doesn't

Modifié par Alpha-Centuri, 27 avril 2011 - 03:19 .

[ADLegend21]

MrFob wrote...

Actually, I think Jacobs initial reaction to Thane just fit's into the general pattern of him being a jerk to pretty much everyone you pick up. I don't get why he is present in the conference room in the first place whenever someone comes aboard.
Thane was bad but at least there he had a reason to be suspicious of an assassin. but I remember when Tali came aboard however, it looked like he really tried to provoke her. I am not a Talimancer or anything but when Jacob said to an already antagonized Tali "Don't forget to introduce yourself to the new AI.", I wanted to punch him in the face.

Tali hates Jacob because he's with Cerberus. She wanted to loan Shepard a grenade to blow it up (presumably with him in it) he even COMPLIMENTS her skill in battle and she goes "Whatever". I rather him warn her about EDI then she do something and EDI pop's up and scare her. Jacob said nothing to antagonize Tali, it's the other way around.

[ADLegend21]

Alpha-Centuri wrote...

Jacob suffers from a case of being normal. He is relatively drama-free like a previous poster mentioned. He isn't on trial for treason, he isn't hunting a guy who betrayed his former squad, etc. He is simply a biotic soldier who is good at what he does. He's emotionally stable, and doesn't need Shepard.

Now that I think about it, Every single character besides Jacob is broken inside, and has Shepard picking up the pieces. He doesn't need anything for Shepard, and I think that's why he is disliked so much. (Oh yeah, then there are the people who hate him because Jennifer Hale did a terrible job in her voice acting when interacting with him. Also, Priiize was so corny)

On my femshep, I get the feeling that he's the only one that actually cares about Shepard among the other potential LI's.  

Related:
Here's a short video. Great quality editing. 

Edit: On topic: Thane is an assassin, and assassins kill anyone for money. People (generally) know who soldiers kill. 

Jacob welcomes Samara, Garrus, and Tali with open arms. Tali lashes out at him, and he remains civil. What those three have in common is that they all have clear enemies. Thane doesn't

Alpha-centuri, I love you dude/dudette, for posting that vid (which is linked into my Signature as well)

[Alpha-Centuri]

  Tali's briefing by Jacob -- He compliments her, and she rebuffs him. He says he will help her get situated by getting her the ship manual, she flippantly says in a snarky tone "Please do, I can't be apart of your team if I don't know how the ship works."
Here's the video 

[Malanek]

Niddy' wrote...
Jacob is least liked squadmate.  Isn't because he's black. It's because the game forces him into every dialog because he is; and, he is about as interesting as a wet paper towel. 

He's Kaidan 2.0.

I think Jacob's lack of popularity is because he isn't a weird alien, hot chick, deranged lunatic or some mixture of all three. I think he is interesting enough having the whole ex-alliance frustrated by red tape thing going on. He is extremely gutsy, determined, morally upright, down to earth character. I think it's a bit of a pity it looks like he will be cut because all his character traits are good traits to have and there is a danger of making the crew too weird especially for new comers.

The only thing I think he has in common with Kaidan is they are both human males. Their personalities are quite different, Kaidan is the philosophical deep thinker who always questions everything. If anything I would say he is significantly closer to Garrus than Kaidan.

[Niddy']

ADLegend21 wrote...


He was a Navigator. I doubt he could tell a soldier anything about their career path like Jacob could. Jacobhelped the alien crew members around the ship since oh I don't know, he know the ship inside and out? He's more likeable than Miranda so it's a natural choice that he'd be the first to greet a new squaddie with Shepard. Alot fo other squadmates have useless and unneccesary things about them, but that doesn't stop people from loving them, why should Jacob be any different?

Doesn't matter what he is, he was second in command. Your agruement for him having dialog for every ending mission because of his position.  As much as I like Jack, I don't want her to be the only one to greet incoming members or the one I discuss missions with. I want my entire team; cause, you know, we are a team.

I couldn't care less about who you like or the reasons you do. You like what you like, not trying to change that. I'm saying the team should have been more involved not one single person; jacob or miranda.

[Alpha-Centuri]

ADLegend21 wrote...

Alpha-centuri, I love you dude/dudette, for posting that vid (which is linked into my Signature as well)

I'm a guy (don't let the Femshep fool you)


Yeah, that video is great. Great job in getting the person to make it for you. The world is better because of you lol

[Fiery Phoenix]

It's because Jacob, to quote Jack, "doesn't know who he is." He should just be grateful it never came to a physical confrontation with Thane.

[Niddy']

Malanek999 wrote...

I think Jacob's lack of popularity is because he isn't a weird alien, hot chick, deranged lunatic or some mixture of all three. I think he is interesting enough having the whole ex-alliance frustrated by red tape thing going on. He is extremely gutsy, determined, morally upright, down to earth character. I think it's a bit of a pity it looks like he will be cut because all his character traits are good traits to have and there is a danger of making the crew too weird especially for new comers.

The only thing I think he has in common with Kaidan is they are both human males. Their personalities are quite different, Kaidan is the philosophical deep thinker who always questions everything. If anything I would say he is significantly closer to Garrus than Kaidan.

Joker is pretty normal and has a larger popularity; granted he isn't really a LI. I was comparing him to Kaid because he was the least liked out of ME1.

[ADLegend21]

Fiery Phoenix wrote...

It's because Jacob, to quote Jack, "doesn't know who he is." He should just be grateful it never came to a physical confrontation with Thane.

it wouldn't, Kasumi would intercept Thane because she's constantly stalking Jay.

@alpha- Thanks man, I nagged her to make it, and now alot of people are starting to respect Jacob. Just doing making sure one of my faves gets some good PR like the other squaddies.

[ADLegend21]

Niddy' wrote...

Malanek999 wrote...

I think Jacob's lack of popularity is because he isn't a weird alien, hot chick, deranged lunatic or some mixture of all three. I think he is interesting enough having the whole ex-alliance frustrated by red tape thing going on. He is extremely gutsy, determined, morally upright, down to earth character. I think it's a bit of a pity it looks like he will be cut because all his character traits are good traits to have and there is a danger of making the crew too weird especially for new comers.

The only thing I think he has in common with Kaidan is they are both human males. Their personalities are quite different, Kaidan is the philosophical deep thinker who always questions everything. If anything I would say he is significantly closer to Garrus than Kaidan.

Joker is pretty normal and has a larger popularity; granted he isn't really a LI. I was comparing him to Kaid because he was the least liked out of ME1.

yah, but Joker's voiced by a witty and talented comedian, therefore he has snappy and hilarious dialogue which = popularity. plus He curses like a sailor when he runs.

[Alpha-Centuri]

Niddy' wrote...


Joker is pretty normal and has a larger popularity; granted he isn't really a LI. I was comparing him to Kaid because he was the least liked out of ME1.

Joker is a cripple who was lost without Shepard (He says it himself when you first reunite). It feeds into the idea that Shepard is the center of the universe and everyone revolves around him. Plus its F***** Seth Green...

[Alpha-Centuri]

double post

Modifié par Alpha-Centuri, 27 avril 2011 - 03:31 .

[Malanek]

In real life I wouldn't let someone like Joker anywhere near a gun, plane, car or any other form of mechanised transport. I dunno, Joker is OK but I'm not a huge fan. The comedic nature of his dialogue in ME2 was pretty good but mainly came from EDI. In ME1 I thought he was pretty lackluster. Way inferior to Ken, for instance.

[100k]

Kasces wrote...

100k wrote...

Dark_Caduceus wrote...

100k wrote...

Dark_Caduceus wrote...

100k wrote...

PrinceLionheart wrote...

Dark_Caduceus wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

ADLegend21 wrote...
Jacob works for Cerberus because they're fighting the reapers. Once htey stop doing that he's gone. He quit's along with Miranda should you decide to blow the base up. so no, he's not a hypocrite. (he also saves the councils with Cerberus).

And you think there's absolutely no killing involved in that goal?

Pfff, please...

Assumedly Jacob feels justified because he's largely killing mercenaries and slavers as opposed to killing whichever target has the biggest paycheck associated with him/her, I'm not necessarily defending his position, but I understand why he would distrust Thane on impulse.

Seriousy, the idea that Thane kills isn't what bothers Jacob. It's the fact that he, as an Assassin/Merc, would kill anyone if the money is right. That they have no moral standards whatsoever. It isn't until you get to know Thane afterwards that you learn otherwise. Just the same, I also find his "It was my body"  belief to be total Bull****.

Why do you guys think that Thane's philosophy is bull? Thane clearly explains to Shepard that Drell minds work differently than human minds. To top it off, Drell are an alien race with a different (even if related) evolution.

Drell minds can become "disconnected". This isn't mere babble that Drell take as religious phenomenon, this is a reality. I'm guessing that even a "connected" Drell sees and feels the world differently than humans. They can endure great physical strain during work, war, or even torture, because they are able to recongnize that what makes them...them, isn't connected to the electrical impulses of the body. They are always aware that their conciousness (or soul) aren't tied to a vessal of flesh and bone. If need be, they can utilize that to their advantage.

So, while Thane can make his own decisions, blaming him for not assuming remorse for the victims he's killed makes as much sense as, say, blaming Krogan's for being naturally agressive, and spending most of their lives in merc bands doing deeds equally, if not more horrific than assassinations. We'd be applying human reasoning and comprehension to something that isn't human.

Not sure if that was directed at me or not, nut I never said Thane's logic was bull. However, Thane would first need to prove that his consciousness or soul isn't connected to his body, as far as I know a conscious mind can't exist without a brain or assumedly it's alien counterpart...

"Belief", "philosohpy", I meant the same thing. Sorry if it was vague. 

But asking Thane to prove that his consciousness/soul isn't connected to his body makes as much sense as asking me to prove that my consciousness/soul are connected to mine. 

My main point (to no one in particular) is that we're too eager to assume that Drell and humans are the same. Fundamental differences in each race make how they process and react to things make it kind of foolish to put up parallels. Shepard doesn't tell Wrex/Grunt that they should become kind and compassionate creatures, because that goes against Krogan reasoning altogether. Shepard is unable to convince Samara that her lifestyle is rather hypocritical, because, in the eyes of the Justicar and her people, punishing the wicked in a cruel and merciless way just makes sense. Likewise, I'm sure that many races see humans as equally strange and unmoral beings; with their unyielding persistence (resulting in explosive galactic expansion), short tolerance (due to short life spans), and value of individualism (which make humans even more unpredictable than most races).

Apples and oranges.

If Thane is trying to justify a life of killing by claiming that only his body is responsible it must first be proven that his consciousness exists independent of his body. You're claiming that his actions are justified because he is a drell, I've yet to see any reason for them to be.

If he were a human, I would hold him to the same standards that I would a human. And while intergalactic law may judge him on the rules of sentient coexistence, as an individual he is different than I am, simply because he is a Drell.

Example: 

I insult a man and tell him that he's not worth my time. The man can beat me up, kill me, or ignore me. But I'm willing to bet that he'd either ignore me, or beat me up. 

I insult a Krogan and tell him he's not worth my time. Krogan kills me. 

In both cases, the human and the Krogan go to jail. However, I understand the difference between how the two species process and react to my response.

Just to chime in...
Your Krogan example assumes all Krogan would kill for simply being insulted imo.

The Krogan you can provoke during Samara's mission and a bunch of others prove this false. In fact, you can outright try to insult that Krogan and he ignores you unless it's a Renegade/ red-colored dialogue.

While it is an interesting philosophy, the whole "body did it, not me"  business is BS because Thane tells his body what to do. The body doesn't just accept the contract while Thane watches third person during the assasinations. Thane's making excuses behind theoretical philosophy (and you can't pursue this convo further) aka what doesn't apply in real life. If that was the case, why stop Kolyat if Drell just "work" that way?

1. Wrex: The worst insult you can say to a Krogan, is that he's not worth killing. That being said, you are correct. I am generalizing. However, most Krogan would probably kill you, given the chance, if you insulted them enough. The same can't be said for a man. Some men'll kill you, sure, but I, as an optimist, believe that most men/women won't try and kill you for insulting them.

2. I think of it this way: when I trip and fall, my arms automatically extend outward to brace myself from the fall. With Drell, this automatic subconscious reflex can extend to all elements of their lives. Hell, Feron was able to survive torture for two years when he could have given the SB information about Liara, by disconnecting himself.

3. Thane stopped Kolyat because Kolyat was becoming an assassin. Thane recongnized this as having the potential to ruin Kolyat's life, just as it ruined Thane's. 

Yeah for giant quote pyramids 

[100k]

Alpha-Centuri wrote...

  Tali's briefing by Jacob -- He compliments her, and she rebuffs him. He says he will help her get situated by getting her the ship manual, she flippantly says in a snarky tone "Please do, I can't be apart of your team if I don't know how the ship works."
Here's the video 

That son-of-a-**** tells Tali to introduce herself with the ship's A.I. 

I hate him.

[Dark_Caduceus]

100k wrote...

Dark_Caduceus wrote...

100k wrote...

Dark_Caduceus wrote...

100k wrote...

PrinceLionheart wrote...

Dark_Caduceus wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

ADLegend21 wrote...
Jacob works for Cerberus because they're fighting the reapers. Once htey stop doing that he's gone. He quit's along with Miranda should you decide to blow the base up. so no, he's not a hypocrite. (he also saves the councils with Cerberus).

And you think there's absolutely no killing involved in that goal?

Pfff, please...

Assumedly Jacob feels justified because he's largely killing mercenaries and slavers as opposed to killing whichever target has the biggest paycheck associated with him/her, I'm not necessarily defending his position, but I understand why he would distrust Thane on impulse.

Seriousy, the idea that Thane kills isn't what bothers Jacob. It's the fact that he, as an Assassin/Merc, would kill anyone if the money is right. That they have no moral standards whatsoever. It isn't until you get to know Thane afterwards that you learn otherwise. Just the same, I also find his "It was my body"  belief to be total Bull****.

Why do you guys think that Thane's philosophy is bull? Thane clearly explains to Shepard that Drell minds work differently than human minds. To top it off, Drell are an alien race with a different (even if related) evolution.

Drell minds can become "disconnected". This isn't mere babble that Drell take as religious phenomenon, this is a reality. I'm guessing that even a "connected" Drell sees and feels the world differently than humans. They can endure great physical strain during work, war, or even torture, because they are able to recongnize that what makes them...them, isn't connected to the electrical impulses of the body. They are always aware that their conciousness (or soul) aren't tied to a vessal of flesh and bone. If need be, they can utilize that to their advantage.

So, while Thane can make his own decisions, blaming him for not assuming remorse for the victims he's killed makes as much sense as, say, blaming Krogan's for being naturally agressive, and spending most of their lives in merc bands doing deeds equally, if not more horrific than assassinations. We'd be applying human reasoning and comprehension to something that isn't human.

Not sure if that was directed at me or not, nut I never said Thane's logic was bull. However, Thane would first need to prove that his consciousness or soul isn't connected to his body, as far as I know a conscious mind can't exist without a brain or assumedly it's alien counterpart...

"Belief", "philosohpy", I meant the same thing. Sorry if it was vague. 

But asking Thane to prove that his consciousness/soul isn't connected to his body makes as much sense as asking me to prove that my consciousness/soul are connected to mine. 

My main point (to no one in particular) is that we're too eager to assume that Drell and humans are the same. Fundamental differences in each race make how they process and react to things make it kind of foolish to put up parallels. Shepard doesn't tell Wrex/Grunt that they should become kind and compassionate creatures, because that goes against Krogan reasoning altogether. Shepard is unable to convince Samara that her lifestyle is rather hypocritical, because, in the eyes of the Justicar and her people, punishing the wicked in a cruel and merciless way just makes sense. Likewise, I'm sure that many races see humans as equally strange and unmoral beings; with their unyielding persistence (resulting in explosive galactic expansion), short tolerance (due to short life spans), and value of individualism (which make humans even more unpredictable than most races).

Apples and oranges.

If Thane is trying to justify a life of killing by claiming that only his body is responsible it must first be proven that his consciousness exists independent of his body. You're claiming that his actions are justified because he is a drell, I've yet to see any reason for them to be.

If he were a human, I would hold him to the same standards that I would a human. And while intergalactic law may judge him on the rules of sentient coexistence, as an individual he is different than I am, simply because he is a Drell.

Example: 

I insult a man and tell him that he's not worth my time. The man can beat me up, kill me, or ignore me. But I'm willing to bet that he'd either ignore me, or beat me up. 

I insult a Krogan and tell him he's not worth my time. Krogan kills me. 

In both cases, the human and the Krogan go to jail. However, I understand the difference between how the two species process and react to my response.

I've yet to see any evidence that a drell's consciousness exists independent of their brain, and until that happens Thane trying to justify his actions using the "it was just my body" response makes no more sense than a human doing the same. Seemingly what your describing is the ability to dissociate oneself from a particular situation, be it killing, torture, stress, etc. If Thane can't control this ability then Jacob is completely justified in not trusting him. If he only dissociates himself when it's convenient then he can't really be considered more moral than any other assasin, can he?

Modifié par Dark_Caduceus, 27 avril 2011 - 04:58 .

[100k]

Dark_Caduceus wrote...

100k wrote...

Dark_Caduceus wrote...

100k wrote...

Dark_Caduceus wrote...

100k wrote...

PrinceLionheart wrote...

Dark_Caduceus wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

ADLegend21 wrote...
Jacob works for Cerberus because they're fighting the reapers. Once htey stop doing that he's gone. He quit's along with Miranda should you decide to blow the base up. so no, he's not a hypocrite. (he also saves the councils with Cerberus).

And you think there's absolutely no killing involved in that goal?

Pfff, please...

Assumedly Jacob feels justified because he's largely killing mercenaries and slavers as opposed to killing whichever target has the biggest paycheck associated with him/her, I'm not necessarily defending his position, but I understand why he would distrust Thane on impulse.

Seriousy, the idea that Thane kills isn't what bothers Jacob. It's the fact that he, as an Assassin/Merc, would kill anyone if the money is right. That they have no moral standards whatsoever. It isn't until you get to know Thane afterwards that you learn otherwise. Just the same, I also find his "It was my body"  belief to be total Bull****.

Why do you guys think that Thane's philosophy is bull? Thane clearly explains to Shepard that Drell minds work differently than human minds. To top it off, Drell are an alien race with a different (even if related) evolution.

Drell minds can become "disconnected". This isn't mere babble that Drell take as religious phenomenon, this is a reality. I'm guessing that even a "connected" Drell sees and feels the world differently than humans. They can endure great physical strain during work, war, or even torture, because they are able to recongnize that what makes them...them, isn't connected to the electrical impulses of the body. They are always aware that their conciousness (or soul) aren't tied to a vessal of flesh and bone. If need be, they can utilize that to their advantage.

So, while Thane can make his own decisions, blaming him for not assuming remorse for the victims he's killed makes as much sense as, say, blaming Krogan's for being naturally agressive, and spending most of their lives in merc bands doing deeds equally, if not more horrific than assassinations. We'd be applying human reasoning and comprehension to something that isn't human.

Not sure if that was directed at me or not, nut I never said Thane's logic was bull. However, Thane would first need to prove that his consciousness or soul isn't connected to his body, as far as I know a conscious mind can't exist without a brain or assumedly it's alien counterpart...

"Belief", "philosohpy", I meant the same thing. Sorry if it was vague. 

But asking Thane to prove that his consciousness/soul isn't connected to his body makes as much sense as asking me to prove that my consciousness/soul are connected to mine. 

My main point (to no one in particular) is that we're too eager to assume that Drell and humans are the same. Fundamental differences in each race make how they process and react to things make it kind of foolish to put up parallels. Shepard doesn't tell Wrex/Grunt that they should become kind and compassionate creatures, because that goes against Krogan reasoning altogether. Shepard is unable to convince Samara that her lifestyle is rather hypocritical, because, in the eyes of the Justicar and her people, punishing the wicked in a cruel and merciless way just makes sense. Likewise, I'm sure that many races see humans as equally strange and unmoral beings; with their unyielding persistence (resulting in explosive galactic expansion), short tolerance (due to short life spans), and value of individualism (which make humans even more unpredictable than most races).

Apples and oranges.

If Thane is trying to justify a life of killing by claiming that only his body is responsible it must first be proven that his consciousness exists independent of his body. You're claiming that his actions are justified because he is a drell, I've yet to see any reason for them to be.

If he were a human, I would hold him to the same standards that I would a human. And while intergalactic law may judge him on the rules of sentient coexistence, as an individual he is different than I am, simply because he is a Drell.

Example: 

I insult a man and tell him that he's not worth my time. The man can beat me up, kill me, or ignore me. But I'm willing to bet that he'd either ignore me, or beat me up. 

I insult a Krogan and tell him he's not worth my time. Krogan kills me. 

In both cases, the human and the Krogan go to jail. However, I understand the difference between how the two species process and react to my response.

I've yet to see any evidence that a drell's consciousness exists independent of their brain, and until that happens Thane trying to justify his actions using the "it was just my body" response makes no more sense than a human doing the same. Seemingly what your describing is the ability to dissociate oneself from a particular situation, be it killing, torture, stress, etc. If Thane can't control this ability then Jacob is completely justified in not trusting him. If he only dissociates himself when it's convenient then he can't really be considered more moral than any other assasin, can he?

"Not ever action performed by my body is a result of conscious choices. I take responsibility for those that are."

It is also important to note that Thane was raised for the soul purpose of being a killing machine. For Jacob to judge Thane so harshly, he would also have to judge Grunt, Samara, even Miranda. And what, in the end, can he say?

Modifié par 100k, 27 avril 2011 - 06:01 .

[Sandbox47]

You've gone on, haven't you? =P