192 réponses à ce sujet

[Reapinger]

ReconTeam wrote...

Bluko wrote...
But seriously is it  like illegal to actually like Jacob and Kaidan?

Seems Kaidan has no problem getting fangirls. Poor Jacob however.

It kinda blows that I had to kill Kadian but it's so much better to have Ashley hate me when I find her on Horizon. =D

[PrinceLionheart]

ADLegend21 wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

AngelicMachinery wrote...

Garrus wasn't a bad ass,  he needed someone to hold his hand throughout the entire series.

The mercs of Omega would beg to differ.  Those that are still alive anyway.

Garrus is great in combat, don't get me wrong, but he's not a badass in a nonviolent way like Shepard. Force is his only option for badassery and even through that, he still got beat in the end and Shepard had to bail him out. I love the turian, despit ehim not listening, but he's just to overhyped. I dont' want Jacob to end up the same as some overhyped guy, he just needs to remain a stable character with better writing in ME3.not Combat though, he's great in combat.

True true. Garrus is an awesome sniper, but going by the hype his fanboys give him you'd think he's Turian Ozymandias. 

[Dean_the_Young]

Wasn't Ozymandias one of those greek kings who did incest?

[Reapinger]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Wasn't Ozymandias one of those greek kings who did incest?

That would be Oedipus. =D

[Dean_the_Young]

Reapinger wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Wasn't Ozymandias one of those greek kings who did incest?

That would be Oedipus. =D

Oedipus was a pretty cool guy before the whole incest thing as well.

(And I could have sworn there were more greek kings who did that than just Oedipus.)

[Reapinger]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Reapinger wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Wasn't Ozymandias one of those greek kings who did incest?

That would be Oedipus. =D

Oedipus was a pretty cool guy before the whole incest thing as well.

(And I could have sworn there were more greek kings who did that than just Oedipus.)

Oedipus had the prophecy against him and he was a short fused guy, that's all. He was a good king and had good kids. The worst was the story of Medea... So bad, I just read it Monday for classics

[didymos1120]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Wasn't Ozymandias one of those greek kings who did incest?

Ozymandias is another name for Ramses the Great.  The reference however is to the Watchmen character, who is a pastiche of all those theoretically "just human" superheroes who are in practice superhuman and supposedly achieved it all through lots of training, study, and discipline.

[PrinceLionheart]

didymos1120 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Wasn't Ozymandias one of those greek kings who did incest?

Ozymandias is another name for Ramses the Great.  The reference however is to the Watchmen character, who is a pastiche of all those theoretically "just human" superheroes who are in practice superhuman and supposedly achieved it all through lots of training, study, and discipline.

And they inacted their master plans 35 minutes ago. 

[Dean_the_Young]

That was actually the best part of the movie, as far as I'm concerned.

'We'll stop you!'

'Uh, dude? Half an hour late?'

[100k]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
'Human reasoning' has nothing to do with it.

Not human reasoning. Reasoning period! Reasoning leads characters to do what they do, and act how they act, and become who they become. This leads to...

All of them have made life choices to embrace their identity, and their disfunctions. Samara chose to become a Justicar, and chooses to continue abiding by it. Grunt chooses to embrace violence. Miranda chooses to perpetuate her own identity issues. Thane is not forced to continue to adopt and maintain a cultural ethical defense.

And, as I've said, you are correct. Samara chose her life. So did Miranda, Thane, Grunt, etc etc.

HOWEVER

Their reasoning behind becoming who they are stems from their cultures/species of origin (except Miranda and Zaeed, who just got thrown into bad situations).

Species traits leads to Reasoning leads to Personal choices.

HOW do we know that this is true? Because even here on Earth, people's upbrining (a rife far smaller than being of a different species) leads them to do and think a certain way. You train a dog to bite someone, it bites them, who do you blame; the person or the dog?

You train a sentient Drell to become a hitman at the age of six, he goes off and kills people, (while utilizing solopsism) who do you blame?

You train a sentient child soldier in Africa to kill his family and friends, he ends up becoming a merciless soldier, who do you blame, the child or the person who trained him?

Jacob and Shepard can't expect to answer questions like these with black and white reasoning of the child/dog/Drell is wrong, because they have a choice" The issue is so much more complex than that!

None of them, in any sense, are obliged or forced by their biology to continue on the life paths they are on. We have plenty of examples from each species of alternatives.

I quite agree. However, we also have overflowing examples that each race has tendencies that (ultimately) override the minority. 

For every Krogan that spouts poetry to his Asari girlfriend, or is smart and works hard, there are one hundred that are agressive and violent. Hence, I give you, the Genophage.

Lets just try to clear this whole thing up right now.

My point is that Jacob and Shepard can easily say that Thane is immoral for being an assassin. They can say that he has a choice in what he does (which is true) and that he ignores that choice.
1)This is rich coming from an agent of a terrorist cell.
2)This is rich coming from a commander who may or may not be a renegade.
But more importantly, Thane replies by simply stating that Drell =/= Human. Human reasoning =/= universal reasoining =/= Drell reasoning.

Modifié par 100k, 28 avril 2011 - 02:15 .

[Dean_the_Young]

100k wrote...

Their reasoning behind becoming who they are stems from their cultures/species of origin (except Miranda and Zaeed, who just got thrown into bad situations).

Species traits leads to Reasoning leads to Personal choices.

HOW do we know that this is true? Because even here on Earth, people's upbrining (a rife far smaller than being of a different species) leads them to do and think a certain way. You train a dog to bite someone, it bites them, who do you blame; the person or the dog?

Both. The dog will be put down, and the human behind bars.

You train a sentient Drell to become a hitman at the age of six, he goes off and kills people, (while utilizing solopsism) who do you blame?

Both the Drell for continuing doing so when the opportunity, knowledge, and alternatives provided themselves, and those who trained/utilized it as a child.

You train a sentient child soldier in Africa to kill his family and friends, he ends up becoming a merciless soldier, who do you blame, the child or the person who trained him?

Both. The trainer for utilizing child soldiers, the not-child-soldier for the crimes he/she has committed as a no-longer child soldier.

Jacob and Shepard can't expect to answer questions like these with black and white reasoning of the child/dog/Drell is wrong, because they have a choice" The issue is so much more complex than that!

The analogy of comparing sentient species to dogs is incredibly racist, all things considered.

People who are raised poorly are entirely culpable for their continued behavior once they are exposed and learn of alternative life styles. People who choose to maintain, or adopt, such lifestyles are entirely culpable and can be held accountable, even if starting on those paths was not their choice. Staying on it, is. When a child soldier grows up, has the exposure and opportunity to change, and willingly retains and stays in the life style... they are just as responsible.


Short of believing in absolute cultural relativism: yes, you can criticize another culture for being ****ed up, and tell it (and it's adherents) to change. It is not a mark of hypocrisy, nor is it idiotic by default. Not challenging people's beliefs and practices in no way encourages them to reflect upon them.

I quite agree. However, we also have overflowing examples that each race has tendencies that (ultimately) override the minority. 

For every Krogan that spouts poetry to his Asari girlfriend, or is smart and works hard, there are one hundred that are agressive and violent. Hence, I give you, the Genophage.

Lets just try to clear this whole thing up right now.

My point is that Jacob and Shepard can easily say that Thane is immoral for being an assassin. They can say that he has a choice in what he does (which is true) and that he ignores that choice.
1)This is rich coming from an agent of a terrorist cell.

Name three acts of terrorism Cerberus has done. Name one that Jacob has participated in.

Jacob isn't accusing Thane of being associated with assassins. Jacob is accusing Thane of being an Assassin.

2)This is rich coming from a commander who may or may not be a renegade.

If Shepard isn't claiming to be a self-justified moral guardian, a 'bred for combat' killing machine, or any other impeccable case, rich is irrelevant.

Being a Renegade has nothing to do with being different.

But more importantly, Thane replies by simply stating that Drell =/= Human. Human reasoning =/= universal reasoining =/= Drell reasoning.

Taken to it's logical conclusion, any cultural difference must be accepted because it isn't 'universal.' Culturally encouraged rape, murder, or even slavery.

Cultural relativism only goes so far. It is not an Aegis for any regressive belief system to hide behind. Given that something like a supermajority of cultures actually share the same cultural values (the same virtues, vices, and general rules), the differences are actually minor in overall comparison.

[100k]

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...Both. The dog will be put down, and the human behind bars.[/quote]
Indeed.
[quote]Both the Drell for continuing doing so when the opportunity, knowledge, and alternatives provided themselves, and those who trained/utilized it as a child.[/quote]Yet Shepard only blames the Drell. He gets a little agitated with the Hanar, but he doesn't blame them.
[quote]Both. The trainer for utilizing child soldiers, the not-child-soldier for the crimes he/she has committed as a no-longer child soldier./[quote]You'll have to explain this one to me...[/quote]Really? I am under the impression that children under the age of 16-18 aren't considered autonomous.
[quote]The analogy of comparing sentient species to dogs is incredibly racist, all things considered.[/quote]
No it is not. I was using the dog as an example of how even a semi sentient creature is valued when under scrutiny. I then brought drell (if we consider the dignity of a drell equal to that of a human) and children (with the knowledge that children will someday become adults, legally and offically capable of making "rational thoughts") into the mix. Nice try though.
[quote]People who are raised poorly are entirely culpable for their continued behavior once they are exposed and learn of alternative life styles. People who choose to maintain, or adopt, such lifestyles are entirely culpable and can be held accountable, even if starting on those paths was not their choice.[/quote]Of course they can, and I am in full agreement there. However, without that appeal such lifestyles, exposure is worthless. Many societies recognize this, and as such, many children/young adults who commit crimes after being raised in very different situations, aren't initially as harshly punished as those who did grow up in a culture where certain actions are condemned. To put in the simplest of simple terms, its sort of the acceptane that "they didn't know any better".
[quote]Staying on it, is. When a child soldier grows up, has the exposure and opportunity to change, and willingly retains and stays in the life style... they are just as responsible.[/quote]This isn't the case in Africa, Asia, and north eastern Europe. Full grown men are often taken not to jail, but to institutions where they can be reformed. Hell, this happens often in Africa, because people recognize that a once child soldier turned full time merc isn't going to see the world he is exposed to with the same eyes that others will. It's why a lot of these guys go back into gangs and such. They literally don't know any other life, and literally can't see the appeal of peaceful coexistance.
A lot of these people are put in jail after they have failed their community service/therapy/psyc evaluation, because, at the end of the day, someone has to go to jail for killing another person.
[quote]Short of believing in absolute cultural relativism: yes, you can criticize another culture for being ****ed up, and tell it (and it's adherents) to change. It is not a mark of hypocrisy, nor is it idiotic by default. Not challenging people's beliefs and practices in no way encourages them to reflect upon them.[/quote]Of course. But we do see in ME2 that Shepard's challenge of evaluation of several of his crewmates (realistically) fails, simply because of who they are and how they think. For Shepard to say that their way is wrong, and his way is right/better/also wrong just didn't/doesn't work because
a)The characters are fictional (but this is a small gripe. In the end, the fact that they are fictional allows for almost innumerable holes/seams in their logic)
Aliens who don't value the same things--not as individuals, but as members of a species.
[quote]Name three acts of terrorism Cerberus has done. Name one that Jacob has participated in.[/quote]Attacking the Flotilla, torturing and experimenting on Aliens before unleashing them on Alliance/innocents. Using rachni experiments, reaper experminents, etc etc. I suppose I can't connect Jacob to any of these things. Anything is possible in two years though...
Which leads to this...[quote]Jacob isn't accusing Thane of being associated with assassins. Jacob is accusing Thane of being an Assassin.[quote]Point taken.
[quote]If Shepard isn't claiming to be a self-justified moral guardian, a 'bred for combat' killing machine, or any other impeccable case, rich is irrelevant.[/quote]If Shepard is acting like a self justified moral guardian, or bred for combat killing machine (which is why Cerberus brought him back), then it is relevant. It would make him a hypocrite. He's just not killing for money.
[quote]Taken to it's logical conclusion, any cultural difference must be accepted because it isn't 'universal.' Culturally encouraged rape, murder, or even slavery.[/quote]The batarians left council space because they accepted their way as law. The council asked them to either abide by international rules, or to GTFO.
[quote]Cultural relativism only goes so far. It is not an Aegis for any regressive belief system to hide behind. Given that something like a supermajority of cultures actually share the same cultural values (the same virtues, vices, and general rules), the differences are actually minor in overall comparison.[/quote]This is a good, but I feel slightly off point. Yes, the Turians, Asari, Salarians, and Humans all share certain values. But I would say that they merely share enough of the same values to coexist. Asari are all for prostitution, slavery, and warrior based society. Turians favor uniform conformity. And while some humans undoubtedly find these things appealing, most of humanity doesn't. This goes back to what I was saying before, about the accepting key differences between the majority of each race.

Modifié par 100k, 28 avril 2011 - 03:40 .

[Made Nightwing]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
]And both rape and making love are just having sex with someone. Perfectly identical!

That's a completely different subject, but whatever.

Same sort of (lack of) differentiation.

Compare Master Sergeant Gary Gordon and Sergeant First class Randy Shughart with any assasin in history. Then tell me that being a soldier and being an assasin are the same thing.

[Dean_the_Young]

[quote]100k wrote...

Yet Shepard only blames the Drell. He gets a little agitated with the Hanar, but he doesn't blame them.[/quote]So? We're not talking about Shepard here. We're talking about Jacob... who never really has any more opportunities to go indepth about thoughts about other characters than any other character gets to go on about their inter-party animosities.
[quote]Really? I am under the impression that children under the age of 16-18 aren't considered autonomous. [/quote]You are under a mistaken impression. In a warzone, children taken prisoner as fighters can be held accountable for their actions. While increased efforts are often made at rehabilitation, much like adult detainees, those who refuse to rehabilitate are not simply let go, and can be held responsible.

And that's just those who are still children, which Mass Effect has no equivalent of. Adults raised from childhood to embrace (insert crime here) are still held responsible as adults who have comitted (insert crime here). An adult (which Thane most certainly is) who has been raised from childhood to commit murder will still be charged as a murderer.
[quote]
No it is not. I was using the dog as an example of how even a semi sentient creature is valued when under scrutiny. I then brought drell (if we consider the dignity of a drell equal to that of a human) and children (with the knowledge that children will someday become adults, legally and offically capable of making "rational thoughts") into the mix. Nice try though. [/quote]Yes, it is. Dog's aren't sentient. Comparing a sentient being to a trained pet is incredibly racist in terms of their implied mental facilities

Comparing someone to a dog is always an insult. It implies dehumanization, a lack of critical thinking, and blind obedience, as well as a boatload of historical baggage.

[quote]Of course they can, and I am in full agreement there. However, without that appeal such lifestyles, exposure is worthless. Many societies recognize this, and as such, many children/young adults who commit crimes after being raised in very different situations, aren't initially as harshly punished as those who did grow up in a culture where certain actions are condemned. To put in the simplest of simple terms, its sort of the acceptane that "they didn't know any better".[/quote]Except, of course, when they do have the opportunity and basis for knowing better. Thane is no stranger to the immorality of murder, he adopts and maintains a worldview which excuses him.

Since he hasn't really been held accountable at all, 'not as harshly' is in no way and barrier for Jacob's dislike and criticism of him.

[quote]This isn't the case in Africa, Asia, and north eastern Europe. Full grown men are often taken not to jail, but to institutions where they can be reformed. Hell, this happens often in Africa, because people recognize that a once child soldier turned full time merc isn't going to see the world he is exposed to with the same eyes that others will. It's why a lot of these guys go back into gangs and such. They literally don't know any other life, and literally can't see the appeal of peaceful coexistance.

A lot of these people are put in jail after they have failed their community service/therapy/psyc evaluation, because, at the end of the day, someone has to go to jail for killing another person. [/quote]The irony of differing cultural responses in different-level situations aside (the European approach to low-conflicts being in direct contrast to others societal approaches in warzones), Thane's never been held accountable. By any standard besides some karmic standard.

And none of that still in any way invalidates Jacob's criticisms.

[quote][quote][/quote]Of course. But we do see in ME2 that Shepard's challenge of evaluation of several of his crewmates (realistically) fails, simply because of who they are and how they think. For Shepard to say that their way is wrong, and his way is right/better/also wrong just didn't/doesn't work because
a)The characters are fictional (but this is a small gripe. In the end, the fact that they are fictional allows for almost innumerable holes/seams in their logic)
Aliens who don't value the same things--not as individuals, but as members of a species.[/quote]
Since when do the Asari or the Drell as a species not care about the value of life, or liberties? No other member of either species is like Samara or Thane: they are outliers in their own societies and races. That's not even cultural differentiation, that's an entirely racist world view.

This is like arguing that, because The Illusive Man is extreme, it's a normal human cultural habit and that no Alien should dare criticize because the moralities are too different on the basis of species.

[quote]Attacking the Flotilla, [/quote]Not terrorism by the classical definition: criminal, but not an act intended to push a position or policy on the Quarian polity by fear or violence.
[quote]
torturing and experimenting on Aliens before unleashing them on Alliance/innocents. [/quote]Cerberus hasn't released experiments on the Alliance/innocents on any sort of deliberate campaign. The only Cerberus experiments to get out are the ones which have broken out.
[quote]
Using rachni experiments, reaper experminents, etc etc. [/quote]Still not terrorism. Criminal, yes. Terrorism, no.
[quote]
I suppose I can't connect Jacob to any of these things. Anything is possible in two years though...[/quote]Right.

And in the last two years, Thane was bathing in the blood of babies, eating hearts, and defiling virgins. Because anything is possible in two years.


[quote][quote][/quote]If Shepard is acting like a self justified moral guardian, or bred for combat killing machine (which is why Cerberus brought him back), then it is relevant. It would make him a hypocrite. He's just not killing for money.[/quote]Since Shepard never acts on the basis of being a bred for combat killing machine, and never any equivalent of the Justicar position, no.
[quote]The batarians left council space because they accepted their way as law. The council asked them to either abide by international rules, or to GTFO. [/quote]No, the Council didn't. Nor did the Batarians leave because of that.

The Batarians left because they were abandoned by the Council who would not defend their interests after losing a settlement conflict to the human Alliance.

[quote][quote][/quote]This is a good, but I feel slightly off point. Yes, the Turians, Asari, Salarians, and Humans all share certain values. But I would say that they merely share enough of the same values to coexist. Asari are all for prostitution, slavery, and warrior based society. Turians favor uniform conformity. And while some humans undoubtedly find these things appealing, most of humanity doesn't. This goes back to what I was saying before, about the accepting key differences between the majority of each race.
[/quote]And how, in any sense, are Justicars or Drell Assassins 'key' differences? They aren't cultural standards for their race any more than Cerberus is for Humanity. They are extremist outliers.

[100k]

Samara isn't an extremist of the Asari though. I believe that one of her people describe her as following a code that doesn't have a good human metaphor. Completely alien. Hell, half the Asari on Illium (and Asari world) see and respect Samara because of her traditional Justicar views.

[Dean_the_Young]

100k wrote...

Samara isn't an extremist of the Asari though. I believe that one of her people describe her as following a code that doesn't have a good human metaphor. Completely alien. Hell, half the Asari on Illium (and Asari world) see and respect Samara because of her traditional Justicar views.

Samara is absolutely an extremist. The Justicars are an extreme order within the Asari cultural context. They have cultural acceptance and support, but are distinct from it. Even Samara makes a number of points as to how far from 'normal' they are. Being from an alien culture doesn't make them incomprehensibly alien and unfathomable to humans, nor is the concept particularly rare: the mythos of Special Forces is roughly analogous, though with a more militaristic rather than law-and-order tinge.

Justicars are analogous to the DC-Marval Superheroes/Vigilantees: not state sponsored, following their own rules, largely admired and respected by the populace (with more than a little projection onto them). They're real life superheroes, organized in their own fashion, in all that implies.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 28 avril 2011 - 03:05 .

[100k]

Very well, very well. You have...convinced me.

Good debate.