125 réponses à ce sujet

[Garak2]

Firstly. When did i say the PS3 was a rental? You are putting words in my mouth. What i said was that purchasing a PS3 doesn't mean you own it. You have no rights to it.

LOL

You are saying it here as well. If you don't own it and Sony does yet you have possession and you paid for it. Isn't that a rental? Also, if you have no ownership rights to it then that makes it a rental.

See, if you rent a PS3 from your local video store:

- You have to return it or pay extra.
- If you break it, you have to pay extra
- You can't modify it

If you buy it:

- You don't have to return it, ever.
- You can take it out of the box and hit it with a hammer and no extra charges will incur
- You can modify it to your liking. Put a new skin on it, take the cover off and watch it work if you like

So yeah, you're calling it a rental.

If you had the rights you could create your own versions of it and sell them at will.

LOL, I don't know what to say. Apply your logic to your car, your microwave, your stove, etc... Are you really trying to run down my keyboard batteries explaining to you what you should already know?

So what you are saying is that you are happy to sign a licence agreement and then take it to court when it doesn't let you do what you want.

I am saying that an EULA does not trump the law. If the law says I can modify my PS3 because I own it...a license agreement won't change that.

So if you signed a buisiness contract with somebody which they agreed to your terms of use for your product and then they decided "I don't like your rules anymore so i will break them" would you not take them to court for breach of contract?

Well, your first mistake is treating an EULA like a legal, binding contract. It isn't. It is a one sided contract that you never reviewed with your lawyer, never signed, never had notarized and never even saw until AFTER the purchase.

There are so many reasons that EULA's are not legally binding until a court says so that I can't believe anyone believes that they are.

Why does the game industry deserve special treatment? Would people be ok with "Bob, if you buy this Jeep Grand Cherokee you should know that you cannot modify it any way nor can you take it off road as this Jeep was only meant to be driven on official roads." No, people would not be ok with that. When it comes to the game industry though all of a sudden it's like "they're special".

Yeah, they're special....just like everybody else.

People will always cry out against Sony but if the shoe was on the other foot you'd be the first to drag a person to court and sue them for all they are worth.

If I were a multi-billion dollar corporation I don't know what I would do...and neither do you.

The rest if the stuff is an argument about PC's which is completely invalid and so i can't argue against an invalid argument. A PC is not a product owned by a company in the same way a PS3 is. Any schmuck can go out and buy individual parts owned by various companies and put them together to make a PC. No one of these companies owns the product they just own the parts so it provides a freedom to install what you wish on it.

If you bought a PC from HP that is loaded with software (some HP software too), it is no different than buying a PS3 loaded with Sony software. Ya know, a game console is just a computer and a game console that was designed to also run Linux is a computer too.

The only reason you treat the PS3 and an HP PC differently is because you believe the game industry is special...it isn't.

A PS3 is a product Sony paid for the rights to all the parts in it and it becomes their product so they have the choice on what is installed on their own product.

Ok let's break this down.

Did HP pay for all the parts in a brand new HP PC? YES
Does HP get to tell you what you can run on it? NO
Does Sony get to tell you what you can run on the PS3? NO

PC and PS3 are completely different cases. Invalid argument.

You wish they were.

Here's the difference between the PS3 and PC. With the PS3 you have to go through Sony to SELL a game on their console. Not so on the PC. However, you can make any game you like and give it away. People who have enabled homebrew can legally play it.

Oh and the EA ban case. Served him right.

Damn, even EA knew that what happened was wrong. You, on the other hand, oh my.....

CD burners have a use outside of piracy. What use does unlocking a PS3 have except to put a bunch of illegal software and custom firmware on it? Enabling piracy just because a bunch of kids want to feel cool by hacking a PS3 and manipulating them isn't a good reason

You mean we got this far into the conversation and you still don't know what we are talking about. I guess that explains a few things. Ok, I'll explain again:

Unlocking the PS3 restores the use of Linux. This is not an act of piracy.
It allows the use of homebrew. This is not an act of piracy.

So, I guess since you are ok with things that enable piracy, as long as they have legal purposes, then you are fine with restoring Linux functionality to the PS3.

Modifié par Garak2, 30 avril 2011 - 04:51 .

[Rockworm503]

Turnip Root wrote...

thesuperdarkone wrote...

This just got serious:
http://www.joystiq.c...nto-psn-breach/

If any of you hackers are reading this, know you are in deep S@#! and I won't give up until you're brought to justice and rot in a dank cell for the rest of your miserable lives. You won't get away from this unscathed. The FBI are after you and will see justice done.

If even one hacker ends up getting caught and punished I will be satisfied.  Despite what hackers say about fighting for the rights of the online community, recent actions show that their only goal is to benefit themselves at the expense of others.
Stealing itself is bad, but stealing under the pretense of helping others is much much worse.

LOL it must be nice living in your little black and white bubble of candy canes and unicorns.  Anyone older than 5 knows nothing is so black and white.  These hackers who did this should get the full brunt of the law on their asses but saying every hacker out there must be punished is like saying boxers should be punished for a bully punched me in school once.

[Rockworm503]

Garak2 wrote...

Turnip Root wrote...

I was perfectly fine with my PS3 and I never asked for or desired the help of any of these hackers.

Nobody is coerced into buying or using Sony's products or services so if they do something abhorrent, they will lose customers. Nobody needs to fight because if consumers were really upset with Sony, they'd stop buying their products.
I don't benefit in the slightest as a gamer in having Sony's PSN shut down and my credit card information potentially compromised.

Hackers always claim they're fighting back against unethical business practices but their actions show that their true motive is to pirate games, steal people's credit card info, and ruin the online experience for legitimate consumers by cheating.
Blaming Sony for "bringing it on themselves" is like blaming a rape victim for being too hot.  Civilized society doesn't work that way.

The whole linux thing is BS. My 50 dollar notebook computer can run Linux, there is no reason why anyone needs a PS3 for it and if they really didn't want to lose it they shouldn't have accepted the update.

The PSN isn't a charity afterall and buying the PS3 doesn't mean you own Sony's networks. It's their house, their rules.

What am I doing to help consumers?  Well unlike hackers I actually buy my games.  I'm a consumer and without consumers there would be no game industry in the first place.
A far cry above the parasites you act as an apologist for.

First of all, are you ok with <insert your car manufacturer> removing your AC after you have purchased the car? If they do force it on you by saying you either accept the "update" or you can no longer use the car on public roads (ie, you can't license it anymore). Would you be ok with simply never buying another <insert your car manufacturer)? I am going to bet not.

It is not ok for Sony to remove a feature after a product is sold. Let me give you an example of what would have been ok. In the original DS and DS Lite Nintendo gave you a GBA port, in the DSi and the DSi XL they removed that port. Why was that ok? That was ok because they didn't remove the port from DS and DS Lite's that people already bought. Had Nintendo released an update that was required, lest newer DS titles may not work  and online play would not work any longer, that removed the functionality of the GBA port....that would be wrong. That is what Sony did. 

Second, it doesn't matter if you wanted Geohots help or not. If not, don't use Linux....see how easy that is. The problem is that you (and Sony) don't think anyone should be able to use it. Indeed some people bought the PS3 for Linux and some for PSN (free online play vs XBOX Live) and some for both. Removing either of those features AFTER a product is paid for is wrong. It's that same as the air conditioner or GBA port examples.

PSN is not down because of Geohot or Anon. It is down because some cyber criminals stole your CC info. It's like saying that Sony is to blame because your car has no air conditioner....LOL

So let's talk about unethical business practices. Do YOU think it was ok for Sony to query YouTube and PayPal for personal information about people who watched a video or donated to a legal battle against Sony? Do you see the conflict of interest here? What if a court had told Geohot that he was free to query Sony about their personal information, wouldn't that be absurd? Isn't it absurd both ways?

That you don't want to run Linux on a PS3 is irrelevent. Others might and the way I understand, the US Air Force was using the PS3 as supercomputer as well. Guess they are stupid as well? Maybe people without a Blu-Ray player bought a PS3 because it "it only does everything". Maybe people without a PC bought a PS3 because "it only does everything".

I never said that buying a PS3 meant you owned PSN. I said that you own the PS3 which is why it's ok to modify your PS3 as you see fit, like Geohot did. Here's the thing though, making people choose between Linix and PSN is wrong because Sony advertised that the PS3 could do BOTH. If you bought a PS3 after Linux was removed...so be it but if you bought one of the early models...you paid for BOTH and you should get BOTH. Maybe Sony should have offered a refund for those who no longer want their PS3 due to features being removed? BTW, Geohot didn't do anything to PSN, what he did was to the PS3...a PURCHASED (not rented) PS3.

Hackers =/= pirates. What makes you think that hackers don't buy games? Again, Geohot didn't crack the PS3 to pirate games, he did it to restore Linux.

Ya know what, do you know why the PS3 had remiained primarily unhacked until OtherOS was removed? It was because with OtherOS on there, there was no need to hack the system to run homebrew. Now look at the Wii and the 360. They don't offer a legal way to run homebrew so they were hacked. So it became true for the PS3 when OtherOS was removed. Homebrew, BTW, is not piracy (cause I know what's brewing in your head).

Seriously am I the only one who read all this?
Everyones attacking Gerek like he's defending the PSN hackers anyone who actually reads this would know otherwise.

[Rockworm503]

KenKenpachi wrote...

Oh yes Garek, you are correct as two wrongs so obviously make a right...and you have the nerve to tell someone to get off a high horse, given I just had to fight a damn fraud charge on my account that I was able to track to an online source, a hacker bug, I've filled a civil suit on the bastard as he ****ed up MY bank account for ****ing friend finder.

And befoe I get jumped on, my own WIFE doesn't know my card number or account number, hell my card never even see's the light of day, and was only used for two online purchases in the last 2 years. Its clear that some how some little piece of crap on a lap top stole my information. And I agreed to filing charges as WRONG is WRONG. Yet a back door virus dispite using my card only at two sites, was stolen via trojan data, and not for some grand cause but for Friend Finder. Call it what you want but it is robbery.

You gonna run off get your buddies to hack me now? Its nothing short of being bullies, you traded the leather jackets, blue jeans, white T's, switchblades, and hair gel, for Notebooks, Numbers, PC's, Viruses, and carrying bags. If you all were so good, and doing whats right, heres an idea,

Why not help people like AVG and Macarfee, lock down and stop such lurking programs that hide in back doorways a scan doesn't find? Or hell attack the other hackers causing harm? Shut down the bot network, hack those "bad hackers". Or Idk anything remotely ****ing useful? Because a number of you are doing that **** and dress it up as "damage", or such. You make up this **** to feel better.

Why I admire groups like the mongols, Vikings, and even yes the Taliban, least when they raided, burned, raped, and stole, they openly state thats the idea. Its not like in various conflicts by modern armies, where it was "a mistake" or "wrong place wrong time" yeah a village can be in the wrong place wrong time.

You don't like Sony or are pissed they don't want to give you something that is theres to keep or give, fine. But don't act like you and yours are on some ****ing white horse crusade for humanity. Shame the devil and tell the truth, it always has, and always will be about those in your groups.

You know people are in touch with reality when they compare hackers to terrorists 
Heres a little lesson for you buddy.  Not every hacker out there is like the guy who stole your Credit card number.

[Rockworm503]

Garak2 wrote...

I don't know why you're responding to them.  Their not treating you with the same respect you're treating them and they don't even read your posts.
Can't have an argument with someone whose not even listening.

[Moondoggie]

Rockworm503 wrote...

Garak2 wrote...

I don't know why you're responding to them.  Their not treating you with the same respect you're treating them and they don't even read your posts.
Can't have an argument with someone whose not even listening.

It's hard to treat a guy with respect when all he does is "You got your credit card numbersd stolen LULZ"  "Your arguments are all wrong hackers should be able to do whatever they want with what they want LULZ"  "I can do what i want LULZ"

[Moondoggie]

Garak2 wrote...







If

If you bought a PC from HP that is loaded with software (some HP software too), it is no different than buying a PS3 loaded with Sony software. Ya know, a game console is just a computer and a game console that was designed to also run Linux is a computer too.

The only reason you treat the PS3 and an HP PC differently is because you believe the game industry is special...it isn't.

Ok let's break this down.

Did HP pay for all the parts in a brand new HP PC? YES
Does HP get to tell you what you can run on it? NO
Does Sony get to tell you what you can run on the PS3? NO

You wish they were.

Here's the difference between the PS3 and PC. With the PS3 you have to go through Sony to SELL a game on their console. Not so on the PC. However, you can make any game you like and give it away. People who have enabled homebrew can legally play it.

You mean we got this far into the conversation and you still don't know what we are talking about. I guess that explains a few things. Ok, I'll explain again:

Unlocking the PS3 restores the use of Linux. This is not an act of piracy.
It allows the use of homebrew. This is not an act of piracy.

So, I guess since you are ok with things that enable piracy, as long as they have legal purposes, then you are fine with restoring Linux functionality to the PS3.

Software? When was i talking about software? But let's talk about HP (You couldn't have picked at least a reputable brand if you wanted to discuss brand name computers? Honestly ) But we'll work with HP. Okay so they install some of their software on a computer they built and sell. Are you allowed to modify that specific software in any way? NO

Do you own the rights to copy,modify and create new versions of that software? NO

And moving on  to hardware  did they pay for the parts? YES

Do they own the parts? NO

When you buy a pre built PC all the parts are still owned by their perspective owners you can take it out and put it in another computer if you wish.

PS3 is built by parts comissioned and made for the PS3 you can't buy these parts seperately and use them to build your own PS3. They own all the parts inside the Console. HP does not own anything in their brand computers.

Going to your example of selling and giving away games on the PS3 lets's apply that to you. Say you own a nice car and you rent the use to your friend who borrows it and pays for gas money for when he uses it. Fair enough right? So then this guy lets 10 of his friends use the car too but is not charging them. He says he doesn't owe you extra money for their use because he isn't selling them use. Is that fair?

I'm fine with things that could possibly be used for piracy if they have usefull purposes. What use does running Linux on a PS3 have apart from stroking the ego's of a few people? CD burners enable the backup of important software and media to avoid loss with damage in many cases from the acts of hackers.

What good use can come out of running homebrew? It has no practical use whatsoever.

[Garak2]

Rockworm503 wrote...

Garak2 wrote...

I don't know why you're responding to them.  Their not treating you with the same respect you're treating them and they don't even read your posts.
Can't have an argument with someone whose not even listening.

Thanks for the support. I agree, they act like defending Geohot is the same as defending cyber criminals and they care nothing for consumer rights when they have an axe to grind.

[KenKenpachi]

Moondoggie wrote...

Rockworm503 wrote...

Garak2 wrote...

I don't know why you're responding to them.  Their not treating you with the same respect you're treating them and they don't even read your posts.
Can't have an argument with someone whose not even listening.

It's hard to treat a guy with respect when all he does is "You got your credit card numbersd stolen LULZ"  "Your arguments are all wrong hackers should be able to do whatever they want with what they want LULZ"  "I can do what i want LULZ"

Its also hard to be respectable to someones who's points are strawmen, or schematics to grey a clearly white and black issue.

[Garak2]

Software? When was i talking about software? But let's talk about HP (You couldn't have picked at least a reputable brand if you wanted to discuss brand name computers? Honestly /images/forum/emoticons/lol.png)

I could have used Dell, Compaq (which is the same as HP), eMachines or any number of computer manufacturers and the point would still be the same. I hope your argument gets better than "LOL, you chose HP". That's pretty weak.

But we'll work with HP. Okay so they install some of their software on a computer they built and sell. Are you allowed to modify that specific software in any way? NO

Do you own the rights to copy,modify and create new versions of that software? NO

Ok but what does this have to with what I said or with the PS3. Can you uninstall their software and install other software over the top of it? Can you uninstall everything and install Linux? Can you dual boot with Linux?

The answer to all of this is YES. We weren't talking about making copies of HP's software...why would you want to anyway...LOL.

Can HP legally tell you not to do those things? NO.

All of this applies to the PS3 as well.

Do they own the parts? NO

Wrong! When HP buys the parts from NVidia or Intel or whoever they have taken ownership of those parts and they retain ownership until they sell the PC with those parts. Those parts then become the ownership of the buyer.

If you bought an HP, ok a Dell since you wanna be picky, with an NVidia 9600 GT in it, the 9600 GT belonged to Dell until they sold it to you. Technically speaking they sell the computer to the retailer who then sells it to you but we're gonna keep it simple here.

Do you honestly believe that people do not own their computers (and all the parts inside) if HP or Dell built them? I have a 40 inch Sony Bravia, do tell...do I own that or does Sony?

When you buy a pre built PC all the parts are still owned by their perspective owners you can take it out and put it in another computer if you wish.

Clarify this for me. Are you saying the NVidia card in a Dell PC belongs to Dell but I can still pull it out and do what I want with it?

PS3 is built by parts comissioned and made for the PS3 you can't buy these parts seperately and use them to build your own PS3. They own all the parts inside the Console. HP does not own anything in their brand computers.

The PS3 is custom made but then so is every model of Dell's computers. Sony uses parts made by other companies just like Dell. There is no difference here.

For example what if you buy a Dell with a graphics chip (not a card, a chip built into the motherboard, say a NVidia 6150 LE), you can't easily move that chip to another computer...yet you still retain the right to do so. Same with the PS3.

You know, I can rip my SNES apart and fill the case with toaster parts and I could use the interior SNES parts and move them to a PC case. I could also remove the SNES parts one by one and sell them off. Not that I would but I do have that right. Same with the PS3.

Going to your example of selling and giving away games on the PS3 lets's apply that to you. Say you own a nice car and you rent the use to your friend who borrows it and pays for gas money for when he uses it. Fair enough right? So then this guy lets 10 of his friends use the car too but is not charging them. He says he doesn't owe you extra money for their use because he isn't selling them use. Is that fair?

Are you trying to say that if I loan my PS3 to you, I should pay Sony a fee? LOL I hope not cause that's insane.

Besides, I don't have a PS3 to loan you...LOL

I'm fine with things that could possibly be used for piracy if they have usefull purposes. What use does running Linux on a PS3 have apart from stroking the ego's of a few people?

Linux is an OS, like WIndows. Running Linux on a PS3 is as useful as running Linux on a Dell.

CD burners enable the backup of important software and media to avoid loss with damage in many cases from the acts of hackers.

Linux is an OS, it has far more uses than a CD burner.

What good use can come out of running homebrew? It has no practical use whatsoever.

To play games not made by big corporations and not sold. Just like downloading a free game on the PC.

Modifié par Garak2, 30 avril 2011 - 04:24 .

[Garak2]

Moondoggie wrote...

Rockworm503 wrote...

Garak2 wrote...

I don't know why you're responding to them.  Their not treating you with the same respect you're treating them and they don't even read your posts.
Can't have an argument with someone whose not even listening.

It's hard to treat a guy with respect when all he does is "You got your credit card numbersd stolen LULZ"  "Your arguments are all wrong hackers should be able to do whatever they want with what they want LULZ"  "I can do what i want LULZ"

I haven't said anything like that. I said that you own the products you buy and can modify them if you wish. I never said it's ok or funny (I don't use terms like LULZ, I prefer English) to hack into servers to steal credit card info. 

If that's what you think I have said, you haven't been reading my posts.

Modifié par Garak2, 30 avril 2011 - 04:25 .

[thesuperdarkone]

We aren't talking about normal hackers, we're talking about the hackers who took down PSN and you act like the people who took down PSN and stole credit card information are completely innocent of any wrongdoing. If you're going to argue, make sure it's about the right topic or you'll look like kind of a dooshy wooshy.

[Garak2]

thesuperdarkone wrote...

We aren't talking about normal hackers, we're talking about the hackers who took down PSN and you act like the people who took down PSN and stole credit card information are completely innocent of any wrongdoing. If you're going to argue, make sure it's about the right topic or you'll look like kind of a dooshy wooshy.

As has already been covered. Some people believe that ALL hackers are criminals. Which is incorrect and is why we are discussing Geohot.

I do not act like the people who stole information from PSN are completely innocent. I have condemned their actions more than once. Sony took down PSN, for the record, not the cyber criminals.

BTW, this industry has people so turned around that they think buying = renting, only where gaming products are concerned. You can take a PS3 and a box fan to the register at Wal Mart at the same time and pay for them together using the exact same method for both products and yet some people believe the box fan is your property while the PS3 is not. It's just insane what game companies have convinced gamers to believe.

Modifié par Garak2, 30 avril 2011 - 04:36 .

[thesuperdarkone]

Least I don't have the FBI on my tail

[Garak2]

thesuperdarkone wrote...

Least I don't have the FBI on my tail

Good for you, neither do I. I have reported you for this nonsense though. Quit accusing me of committing a crime.

[Rockworm503]

Moondoggie wrote...

Rockworm503 wrote...

Garak2 wrote...

I don't know why you're responding to them.  Their not treating you with the same respect you're treating them and they don't even read your posts.
Can't have an argument with someone whose not even listening.

It's hard to treat a guy with respect when all he does is "You got your credit card numbersd stolen LULZ"  "Your arguments are all wrong hackers should be able to do whatever they want with what they want LULZ"  "I can do what i want LULZ"

Its hard to treat someone with respect when you don't even know what their talking about or yourself.
Give me one moment where he said this and I won't post in this thread again.
take your time kiddo there's no rush.

[Rockworm503]

KenKenpachi wrote...

Moondoggie wrote...

Rockworm503 wrote...

Garak2 wrote...

I don't know why you're responding to them.  Their not treating you with the same respect you're treating them and they don't even read your posts.
Can't have an argument with someone whose not even listening.

It's hard to treat a guy with respect when all he does is "You got your credit card numbersd stolen LULZ"  "Your arguments are all wrong hackers should be able to do whatever they want with what they want LULZ"  "I can do what i want LULZ"

Its also hard to be respectable to someones who's points are strawmen, or schematics to grey a clearly white and black issue.

I guess you don't respect yourself then.
Hard to look in the mirror with so much hypocrosy.

[Rockworm503]

thesuperdarkone wrote...

We aren't talking about normal hackers, we're talking about the hackers who took down PSN and you act like the people who took down PSN and stole credit card information are completely innocent of any wrongdoing. If you're going to argue, make sure it's about the right topic or you'll look like kind of a dooshy wooshy.

Seriously people read Garaks posts no really read them.  Don't just skim them and make assumptions on what he's saying.
It will make you all look less stupid.

[Rockworm503]

thesuperdarkone wrote...

Least I don't have the FBI on my tail

500 bucks says FBI has hackers in their employ...
Oh wait their all criminals how can that be?

[Garak2]

...and now (actually 2 days ago) Sony has revealed that SOE was also hacked into meaning that:

SOE announced that it has lost 12,700 customer credit card numbers as the result of an attack, and roughly 24.6 million accounts may have been breached.

http://www.joystiq.c...credit-card-nu/

This is in addition to breaches of the PSN. Of the 12,700 card numbers stolen, 900 were active with SOE. The other 11,800 may still be valid numbers though, just because you stop using SOE doesn't mean you change your card. SOE handles MMO's like Everquest.

SOE was attacked at the same time as PSN but Sony is just now telling us about it. I have info on SOE and would have liked to have known much sooner. Luckily my info was limited as I just played a trial of Star Wars Galaxies a few months ago. I am glad that game sucked and I didn't subscribe.

Modifié par Garak2, 04 mai 2011 - 05:59 .

[AlexMBrennan]

Article by our computer security group

[Stagmar]

Garak2 wrote...
SOE was attacked at the same time as PSN but Sony is just now telling us about it. I have info on SOE and would have liked to have known much sooner. Luckily my info was limited as I just played a trial of Star Wars Galaxies a few months ago. I am glad that game sucked and I didn't subscribe.

As was said in the article, Sony didn't discover that SOE was also hacked until the beginning of this month.  Assuming that is true they couldn't have told us asbout it sooner.  Also if you gave them the info only a few months ago you weren't affected in this one since the database is from 2007.

[Garak2]

Stagmar wrote...

Garak2 wrote...
SOE was attacked at the same time as PSN but Sony is just now telling us about it. I have info on SOE and would have liked to have known much sooner. Luckily my info was limited as I just played a trial of Star Wars Galaxies a few months ago. I am glad that game sucked and I didn't subscribe.

As was said in the article, Sony didn't discover that SOE was also hacked until the beginning of this month.  Assuming that is true they couldn't have told us asbout it sooner.  Also if you gave them the info only a few months ago you weren't affected in this one since the database is from 2007.

...and that it took them 2 weeks to discover it makes it ok? Why did they wait so long to check SOE after knowing PSN was hacked?

Yers, they COULD have told us sooner if they had investigated it sooner.

I know though, Sony can do no wrong.

[chunkyman]

This thread is gonna be Stanley Woo'd if you guys (on both sides) don't stop straw-manning and being rude. Ever heard of the saying "Disagreeing without being disagreeable".