214 réponses à ce sujet

[SkittlesKat96]

Actually it wasn't the changes that we disliked before the game came out that made me angry.

To be honest the change in Rpg depth (adding a voice acted protagonist, changing the companion systems and item and armor, all that sort of stuff) is a good thing.

The bad things were: Repetitive combat, reused environments, bad storyline/joining, bad armor designs and the non life like Kirkwall.

The old school Rpg fans are being too vocal and they act as if they are important and have a big following but to be honest they are only a minority/portion of the fanbase and I actually don't mind the changes in design and the voiced protagonist and all that stuff.

Sure it has it's disadvantages, I think my Warden is way more epic and has a way longer story than my Hawke and I think we got to know our companions better and all that but still DA 2 could have done that too, but they tried something different and the risk was too great and they suffered from it but I think Dragon Age 3 will be a great game trust me.

[randallman]

oldmansavage wrote...

I never had any fear, hell I had never even been on Bioware forums.  I had the game preordered and ready to rock out (still high on origins) plugged that beast in and was underwhelmed.  I came here to get 60 dollars worth of ****ing. 

Same here...  I didnt play the demo, read the forums, or read any developer blogs/communications.

I expected DA:O 2, I was very disappointed.  Funny thing in life about expectations...  They are rarely met unless they are bad expectations.

EOF

[aftohsix]

Merced652 wrote...

So no one is ever surprised, and certainly never pleasantly so. Good theory, champ. 

Where did you get that I said this?  Seriously?  Explain it out to me.  I'm trying understand.  Keep provoking buddy.

[randallman]

WazzuMan wrote...

I loved DA2. Considerably more than DA:O actually. Probably because it was more suited to me than its predecessor. There were many improvements to gameplay yet it was still the same universe with the same characters and names and all that. The only downer that got me is that you're not actually doing as much or seeing as much as with Origins. Variety is very important if you ask me.

Imagine for a moment that you've never heard of or played DA:O.

Now playing DA2, do you 'get' the flavor of the world of Thedas?  Do you really get to understand how Maker-fearing folks are?  Do you learn about the harrowing for mages, or the tranquil?  I mean there's only like - ONE church in the entire game of DA:2...

Without having played and learned the lore from DA:O, Im not even sure that the game-world would be fully flushed out in DA:2

--Randall

[aftohsix]

FedericoV wrote...


That's not a reason to dismiss criticism as a confirmation bias. 

Re-read the first post and find the criticism in it for me beyond "I thought this game would suck and it indeed does suck."

It is the definition of confirmation bias.

[aftohsix]

JabbaDaHutt30 wrote...

Define 'attack'.  You can defend what you say while remaining perfectly affable..

Re-read a couple of your past posts.  You should get the idea.

[Sabriana]

Without DA:O, there would be no DA 2.

DA:O set up DA 2, not the other way around.

[DaBigDragon]

SkittlesKat96 wrote...

Actually it wasn't the changes that we disliked before the game came out that made me angry.

To be honest the change in Rpg depth (adding a voice acted protagonist, changing the companion systems and item and armor, all that sort of stuff) is a good thing.

The bad things were: Repetitive combat, reused environments, bad storyline/joining, bad armor designs and the non life like Kirkwall.

The old school Rpg fans are being too vocal and they act as if they are important and have a big following but to be honest they are only a minority/portion of the fanbase and I actually don't mind the changes in design and the voiced protagonist and all that stuff.

Sure it has it's disadvantages, I think my Warden is way more epic and has a way longer story than my Hawke and I think we got to know our companions better and all that but still DA 2 could have done that too, but they tried something different and the risk was too great and they suffered from it but I think Dragon Age 3 will be a great game trust me.

I agree with all this except the bad storyline, I'm rather enjoying the story.

[tiernanlshaw]

i think there is a lot of truth in that a lot of people decided this game would suck before they even played it, and in that the confirmation bias is very much true. not to say there arent people who were excited as hell to play it and ended up being dissapointed. im just saying. pc players in particular seemed to hate the changes be implemented from the get go and have played the game more like a movie critic than as someone who enjoys movies. meaning that its impossible to enjoy something no matter how good it may be if you are looking for every flaw in every moment as you play it. in ex: a movie critic craps all over the evil dead. someone who likes movies generally likes it because its absurdly funny in its shortcomings. and for my money if your looking for falws they are easier to find in origins than in dragon age 2 if thats what you set out to do.

basically if you set out to try and enjoy something you probably will. if you set out to hate it or even just look for everything wrong with it you can just as easily do that. it just baffles me as to why so many people pre-ordered or bought something they were so certain they would hate. at what point do you look in the mirror and say " i am an idiot and clearly have no idea what i should spend my money on ".

[Redcoat]

Here's the thing: If people didn't enjoy Dragon Age 2, then...they didn't enjoy Dragon Age 2! They don't have some mental block that, if removed, will cause them to suddenly have an epiphany and declare, "Once I was blind, but now I see! Dragon Age 2 is awesome!" Now, if they go around demanding the dismissal and/or bloody death of BioWare employees, then I think they can be safely ignored, but when people start bringing up the same issues repeatedly, then that is a sign that's something's wrong.

[Addai]

wyvvern wrote...
Reading all these (frankly) arrogant posts and interviews by Bio employees about how people who didn't like the game have confirmation bias, or should be playing it on hard, or didn't want to like the game in the first place, or are resistant to change, etc, I can't help but wonder if any of them ever worked in the CS field at all. Or if they care if their future products sales might suffer as a result of their comments.

(* Never trivialize your customer's complaints, even when they're trivial.)

tl;dr: The customer is always right, and when they're not you never tell them that.

I don't want devs who post here to put their customer service hats on.  I like that they talk to us like real people, not marketing bots.  That's something you don't find on other boards and it's refreshing.  So, for my money they can spout off a little.  For what they get when they do come here, they're freaking saints.

[Dragoonlordz]

I don't know why but DA2 feels more like an expansion to me, akin to Awakening. It certainly has more in common with Awakening than Origins in a vast amount of ways minus the kiddie or flashy might be better word style combat (bright colours, massive health and magic bars with vibrant icons for skills and instant boom headshot style over the top fight mechanics it has more in common with a hack and slash or beat'em up feel to it for me) and mass effect style UI all which lacked for me a fantasy sword and spell style game of which Origins succedded in that area personally.

Other than the UI and Mass Effect dialogue wheel (only icon in middle is different), the dialogue is the same as Awakening in that 'almost' all player interaction with companions was done through (mostly timed) quests/events only really. Also the game feeling much smaller aka the world in which you play because of the limitation of size due to sticking with Kirkwall for most of game, in Awakening the less areas would be same in smaller amount to visit compared to Origins.

In the end I just think the game isn't a successor to Origins, just an expansion like Awakening (very expensive day one purchase expansion though very cheap now due to retailers dropping prices drastically recently). I do wonder if would be more or less painfull playing it if think along lines of it being more an Anders expansion pack, let's face it he is more important to the story than Hawke even if your Hawke never existed Anders would still be the main character. The only alternative would be Varric but given this feels more like an expansion than full game to me that could never rival Origins given the end result of what was produced personally, it makes more sense to have it linked/thought of as an expansion for Anders than Varric.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 28 avril 2011 - 06:50 .

[Merced652]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

I don't know why but DA2 feels more like an expansion to me, akin to Awakening. It certainly has more in common with Awakening than Origins.

well yea, same lead designers.. awesome buttans

[mmu1]

Addai67 wrote...
I don't want devs who post here to put their customer service hats on.  I like that they talk to us like real people, not marketing bots.  That's something you don't find on other boards and it's refreshing.  So, for my money they can spout off a little.  For what they get when they do come here, they're freaking saints.

Except that, aside from a certain measure of snarkiness, they don't say anything that's a whole lot different than what the "marketing bots" would say. They can't.

They just come in here and (by and large) try to explain to us how we're wrong for not liking the game. Or how we don't get how things work, which is why we don't like the game. Or even how we don't understand the real reasons why we don't like the game. Sometimes they throw in a platitude about how they're feeling our pain, other times they get irritable and say something insulting - but in the end, they're not having a real conversation with the fans.

And it's worse when it's someone like Stan Woo, who (as far as I know) had little or no input into the creative process - all you get from him is the attitude. At least when it's someone like David Gaider being a jerk, there's a (small) chance he'll drop his guard and let somehting interesting slip...

Modifié par mmu1, 28 avril 2011 - 07:26 .

[Ronin2006]

Stanley Woo wrote...

See confirmation bias. That explains a lot. the rest of it is to be expected and well within the big bell curve of like and don't like.

Wow, this is one of the most arrogant and patronising responses I've read on this forum.  Considering that it has come from a moderator on this forum, it is extremely disappointing and shameful.  I have lost a lot of respect for Bioware and the moderators on this forum from this post, and particularly this moderator.

Normally, despite the extreme opinions presented on both sides of the fence, (including some of the overly extreme emotional vitriol), the moderator's conduct themselves in a decent manner that is accommodating to all differing opinions no matter how extreme they are, so long as they are expressed civily.

You sir may attribute the OP's post about this game to nothing more than confirmation bias, but perhaps you have let your own "bias" show from your interpretation of this thread.

The arrogance absolutely astounds me.  Do you think that perhaps some of the concerns expressed about this game don't come from an actual "bias" but things that are genuinely found in this game, and not from selective memory and pre established beliefs as you seem to imply?  People did express concerns about the "streamlining" that would potentially appear in this game, and to deny that there wasn't some "streamlining" would be foolish.  People did express concerns over the more action-oriented approach and lack of strategic tactical camera, and of course, this did occur.  It's not so much opinion, but objective fact.  Whether a person actually *likes* these changes is down to personal opinion, but the changes did occur and this is fact.

I really hope your attitude and opinions don't reflect those of Bioware as a whole.  Because if they do, they have completely lost touch with a significant part of their customer base.  Sure, many things are personal taste, and I won't deny that many people do like a lot of what is contained in this game, but to deny people's genuine concerns as being nothing more than "bias" reflects moreso on your own arrogance and bias.

Modifié par Ronin2006, 28 avril 2011 - 08:30 .

[Rockpopple]

Now this is entertainment! Epic rant is... a rant. =D

[Mad-Max90]

What are we even supposed to be biased towards? I don't get it, I wanted this game to be great, like origins was, it wasn't great, it was bad, to me at least, I wasn't biased to I guess hating the game? But I was more biased toward bioware on account of all their great games, so yeah I gues Mr. Woo was a bit on the wrong side with his not so smart "smart" comment

[Rockpopple]

It's... not really that difficult. Here, I'll try to illustrate what Stanley Woo was getting at:

OP:

We all came on here and started crying at how bad it looked and how horrible all the new ideas and changes sounded.

---> Seems my gut reaction was indeed true.

Stanley Woo:

A lot of that can be explained by confirmation bias.

Seems kinda clear-cut to me. I mean if you're going in with the expectation that this and that and the other thing is gonna suck, and the time comes and your feelings are validated, at least some of that has got to be explained by confirmation bias. 

Modifié par Rockpopple, 28 avril 2011 - 08:33 .

[Addai]

mmu1 wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
I don't want devs who post here to put their customer service hats on.  I like that they talk to us like real people, not marketing bots.  That's something you don't find on other boards and it's refreshing.  So, for my money they can spout off a little.  For what they get when they do come here, they're freaking saints.

Except that, aside from a certain measure of snarkiness, they don't say anything that's a whole lot different than what the "marketing bots" would say. They can't.

So, they're damned if they do or don't?

Cut them some slack.  I like their input and would like to see it continue.

[cljqnsnyc]

Rockpopple wrote...

It's... not really that difficult. Here, I'll try to illustrate what Stanley Woo was getting at:

OP:

We all came on here and started crying at how bad it looked and how horrible all the new ideas and changes sounded.

---> Seems my gut reaction was indeed true.

Stanley Woo:

A lot of that can be explained by confirmation bias.

Seems kinda clear-cut to me. I mean if you're going in with the expectation that this and that and the other thing is gonna suck, and the time comes and your feelings are validated, at least some of that has got to be explained by confirmation bias. 

I look at this "bias" notion as yet another attempt to explain away a person's disappointment. On the very same shelf with all of the other excuses that have been used. "Unable to accept or deal with change"  "Expecting DAO2"  "Play it on hard"  "DAO did will because it was released during a holiday"  Now..."Confirmation Bias"    So what's next?  Has it ever occured to the authors of these "explanations" that it might just be a possibiity that the people who didn't like this game was due to.......................................THE GAME? 

Really. I'm waiting to see what the next catch phrase or explanation will be.

Here's a thought....

What if you saw the screenshots and played the demo and had a bad feeling about what was to come? Then, have the game speak for itself, make a case for itself, and win people over all by itself?  For me, if the game was high quality, this would have been the case. It may have indeed been the experience of some but judging by the need to make so many excuses for so many different reasons and other factors, this was not the general overall response, certainly not mine.  A good game makes it's own case and doesn't need a host of excuses or defensive spin.

Case and point: DAO. Released on it's own. Sold well on it's own. Made it's own case. Created it's own following.
And launched an entirely new universe and lore. There wouldn't even be a DA2 to discuss without it. Now, could DA2 accomplish all of this by itself without DAO? We'll never know, but I seriously doubt it. 

I think it's great when Bioware responds to us in these forums or in interviews. What's not so great is when some company spokespersons, which they all are to some extint, uses this as an opportunity to dismiss opposing opinions and views with excuses and catch phrases, sometimes even insults. I saw a great interview with Casey Hudson and he was very clear about fan feedback and how everyone's opinion is valid and important to him whether he agrees with them or not. He had a great attitude and disposition about the series (ME) and it's fans. I have absolutely no fears with ME3 or with Bioware as a whole. This discussion shouldn't be about Bioware in general. This is  just one team  or division. I don't feel DA2 represents the course of ALL rpgs that follow, at least I certainly hope not.

Too bad we don't get the same consideration shown by the ME team with the DA franchise.

Modifié par cljqnsnyc, 28 avril 2011 - 11:14 .

[Mad-Max90]

Yes everytime I speak highly of a bioware interview somehow the common denominator has always been Casey Hudson, the guy's games speak for themselves and he only goes on to improve on the positives while acknowledging the game's flaws and talking about the ways they improved not changed, but IMPROVED upon the last two games

[Seena]

"all" "our" "fears"?

Emo much?

[Mad-Max90]

Every time someone says something about bioware as a whole, I think they're really just upset with this particular team of devs, so I write off the bioware part and add in the DA2 team, simply because the complaints are towards that team, not the other teams that get grouped together, for all we know the Austin team is pumping it's steam working on kotor, and the Mass Effect guys seem very positive in actually stating what they improved upon since the last game, and how they're trying to merge the best parts of both games to create mass effect 3.