214 réponses à ce sujet

[neppakyo]

xYOSSARIANx wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

See confirmation bias. That explains a lot. the rest of it is to be expected and well within the big bell curve of like and don't like.

I love my RPG's. I make a point NOT to read previews or the endless speculation on message boards prior to getting my hands on the game. So you can't try to tell me I had 'confirmation bias', I knew NOTHING about DA2 other than it was a sequel to a fantastic game and I was looking forward to more of the same.

What I got was absolute rubbish, but then you knew that, that's why you set the review embargo to the day it shipped, you will not catch me out with that trick again, and I'd never pre-order a Bioware game again.

END OF LINE

Exactly the same thing I did. The only thing I saw was the CGI trailer, and it looked interesting. I never read anything on DA2, or played the demo. I loved DA:O, and DA2 being a sequel from bioware I trusted that DA2 was going to be an awesome game. So I went out on the day of release and bought DA2.

Started to play it, few hours in thinking to myself "ok, this is different, maybe it gets better.." Then I finished it, sat back and went "huh. that was a waste of time and money", and went to these forums for the first time in my life to complain about a game.

I'll reiterate; For the first time in my life.. I went to the game manufacturers website to complain about it. Probably wouldn't of b!tched so much if I paid $30 for it, but i paid $60CDN for it. and in my opinion it was a waste of money, and I wish I could of returned it to gamestop. PC game. Screwed again.

[xCirdanx]

Siansonea II wrote...
Well, they could still post in the "free" forum if they returned their copy of the game, couldn't they? But that's my point in a nutshell. If the game isn't worthwhile, why is it worth their time to dissect and grouse about? As much as I'm looking forward to ME3, if it widely misses the mark, I will be severely disappointed, and I will return the game from where I bought it. Or, more likely, put it aside and forget about it. But I highly doubt that I'll be here in the forums in the spring of 2012 posting the same complaints over and over again. To me, spending that much time and energy on an unsatisfying experience is just compounding a bad investment.

For instance, I REALLY disliked the movie "Crash", the Racism Is Bad, Mmmkay Movie Starring Everyone In Hollywood that came out a few years ago. Predictably, it won the Best Picture Oscar, because, well, all the voters were IN the movie. Hated that movie. I didn't pay to see it, and I STILL wanted my money back. Complete waste of time. But I wasn't about to launch a campaign about why it was terrible, why it didn't deserve the Oscar win, etc., and burn up the Internet with The Injustice Of It All. It was already into me for a couple of hours of my life, and I'd be damned if it was going to get a minute more. It has proven its value as a tool for analogy, though, so I suppose it wasn't a complete waste of two hours.

I guess it´s too much of work to return a game? I don´t know really *laughs* I couldn´t bring back the worst game i have, i just couldn´t bother to drive the distance to the shop.

The answer to this is tricky, because everyone has a different motive for doing it, longtime fans might feel betrayed and lied to, someone might think the more you complain chances are higher they will listen, and another one might just have a bad day. I guess the list goes on and on.

I know what you mean, but for a lot of people their hobby is something sacred, and thus they react really strong and emotional on this subject.

Thinking about it, i guess i have already said everything i didn´t like about DA2, so for me there isn´t much to add, which shouldn´t mean i may not point out the flaws again the future if i feel the need to do so.

However there will always be new players who come in and make the same thread over and over again, that´s the way it works, and it may even not be such a bad thing...there is still a bit of hope in my eyes, that DA3 will be a better game, if they listen to some of the complains.

[Revan312]

Siansonea II wrote...

Revan312 wrote...

Bias formulates most of opinion, in fact, bias and opinion are pretty much analogous, so shoehorning confirmation bias into the thread really doesn't say much. It especially doesn't change the fact that such opinion still drives reputation perception..

Bottom line is the flack you got before release has, as is to be expected, moved through into post release and has effected mass opinion concerning the integrity of Bioware. Acting like 5 year olds and dismissing fan reaction rather than playing damage control is simply imbecilic..

Sesquipedalian much?

I would say that if anyone is acting like a five-year-old, it's the disgruntled fans. I can't see the point or the value of hashing and rehashing the 100 Things I Hate About 2 for months on end. Couch it in the most erudite terms, it's till just a tantrum, it's just a long-winded and long-worded one.

What words were too big? Imbecilic? perception? Boy those were long words.. I apologize if I used 9th grader level vocabulary..

More to the point though, of course fans act like toddlers, but that's always been the case, it's a companies job to appease said toddlers and to reassure them that what happened was indeed a misstep and that it won't happen again.. That's what I think would have been Bioware's best option after the blowback they got post release. Personally I couldn't care less what Bioware decides to do as this purchase will be my last from the oh so lofty kings of RPGs (minus ME3 simply to finish the trilogy out, I will painfully admit that).

Their conduct in these last couple months has done nothing but polarize the subsets of opinionated consumers involved with this product's release. David Gaider and the rest have reacted to fan opinion juviniley and with an air of elitism that is generally frowned upon within marketing and sales. Bioware has pounded the nail into the coffin regarding more "fans" than I imagine they ever intended. And now, on top of it all, they release a spectacularly overpriced piece of DLC aimed at nothing more than cash expansion while bugs and problems still infest many player's experiences and you end up with an even more upset fanbase..

DA2 turned into a far larger quagmire of hatred than I ever imagined, and I was one of the individuals on the boards pre-release that was slamming Bioware's design decisions quite vehemently. I still thought, even though I felt DA2 would be a failure from a technical level, that most would scoop it up and devour it, saying "Please sir I'd like some more", but I was wrong, the game is pretty much a financial flop as well.. But I could never imagine that the devs themselves would try to downplay the problems, concerns and issues as nothing more than fan hyperbole and overreaction, essentially inferring that most that didn't like it simply despise change and should go away..

Bioware should just shut up and release patchs for a few months to try and let the seas calm a bit as what they're trying to do now is just fanning the forest fire..

[v_ware]

Ronin2006 wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

See confirmation bias. That explains a lot. the rest of it is to be expected and well within the big bell curve of like and don't like.

Wow, this is one of the most arrogant and patronising responses I've read on this forum.  Considering that it has come from a moderator on this forum, it is extremely disappointing and shameful.  I have lost a lot of respect for Bioware and the moderators on this forum from this post, and particularly this moderator.

Normally, despite the extreme opinions presented on both sides of the fence, (including some of the overly extreme emotional vitriol), the moderator's conduct themselves in a decent manner that is accommodating to all differing opinions no matter how extreme they are, so long as they are expressed civily.

You sir may attribute the OP's post about this game to nothing more than confirmation bias, but perhaps you have let your own "bias" show from your interpretation of this thread.

The arrogance absolutely astounds me.  Do you think that perhaps some of the concerns expressed about this game don't come from an actual "bias" but things that are genuinely found in this game, and not from selective memory and pre established beliefs as you seem to imply?  People did express concerns about the "streamlining" that would potentially appear in this game, and to deny that there wasn't some "streamlining" would be foolish.  People did express concerns over the more action-oriented approach and lack of strategic tactical camera, and of course, this did occur.  It's not so much opinion, but objective fact.  Whether a person actually *likes* these changes is down to personal opinion, but the changes did occur and this is fact.

I really hope your attitude and opinions don't reflect those of Bioware as a whole.  Because if they do, they have completely lost touch with a significant part of their customer base.  Sure, many things are personal taste, and I won't deny that many people do like a lot of what is contained in this game, but to deny people's genuine concerns as being nothing more than "bias" reflects moreso on your own arrogance and bias.

Stanley Woo is known to be one off the less enjoyable mods on this forum. Almost all have become more rude and agressive since the passionate feedback they get from their fans mainly consists of ripping DA2 to shreds. Which is logical, but not quite the reaction that will soothe the upset fans.

I think it would help if someone from Bioware just said: Sorry, we rushed the game and it was sub-par. Not gonna happen though. The only thing we get is some low-res 9$ crappy appearence DLC instead...

Modifié par v_ware, 01 mai 2011 - 07:56 .

[Elhanan]

Ringo12 wrote...

All I can say is Witcher 2.

If that were only true....

[Tommy6860]

v_ware wrote...

Ronin2006 wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

See confirmation bias. That explains a lot. the rest of it is to be expected and well within the big bell curve of like and don't like.

Wow, this is one of the most arrogant and patronising responses I've read on this forum.  Considering that it has come from a moderator on this forum, it is extremely disappointing and shameful.  I have lost a lot of respect for Bioware and the moderators on this forum from this post, and particularly this moderator.

Normally, despite the extreme opinions presented on both sides of the fence, (including some of the overly extreme emotional vitriol), the moderator's conduct themselves in a decent manner that is accommodating to all differing opinions no matter how extreme they are, so long as they are expressed civily.

You sir may attribute the OP's post about this game to nothing more than confirmation bias, but perhaps you have let your own "bias" show from your interpretation of this thread.

The arrogance absolutely astounds me.  Do you think that perhaps some of the concerns expressed about this game don't come from an actual "bias" but things that are genuinely found in this game, and not from selective memory and pre established beliefs as you seem to imply?  People did express concerns about the "streamlining" that would potentially appear in this game, and to deny that there wasn't some "streamlining" would be foolish.  People did express concerns over the more action-oriented approach and lack of strategic tactical camera, and of course, this did occur.  It's not so much opinion, but objective fact.  Whether a person actually *likes* these changes is down to personal opinion, but the changes did occur and this is fact.

I really hope your attitude and opinions don't reflect those of Bioware as a whole.  Because if they do, they have completely lost touch with a significant part of their customer base.  Sure, many things are personal taste, and I won't deny that many people do like a lot of what is contained in this game, but to deny people's genuine concerns as being nothing more than "bias" reflects moreso on your own arrogance and bias.

Stanley Woo is known to be one off the less enjoyable mods on this forum. Almost all have become more rude and agressive since the passionate feedback they get from their fans mainly consists of ripping DA2 to shreds. Which is logical, but not quite the reaction that will soothe the upset fans.

I think it would help if someone from Bioware just said: Sorry, we rushed the game and it was sub-par. Not gonna happen though. Yeah, give us some low-res 9$ crappy appearence DLC instead...

Yes, Stanley can be grating, I have all but said this to him before. As far as what you think Bioware should say, well, I think that it is wrong to expect to have them say anything because you want them. I thoroughly feel the game is sub-par, but I won't impress upon Bioware to mount a campaign for my feeing of "buyer's remorse". What makes the difference is, how I view Bioware for future releases, they are no longer on "automatic".

[Tommy6860]

Revan312 wrote...

<snipped>

I kind of agree with your post, I am just not that angry about it, I will let my wallet decide any future purchases though. But I do have to make a comment about your avatar. It is awesome looking. In fact, if I could have used that as my character build for looks in DA2, I may have avoided all of those meaningless wave battles, since the enemy would have clearly seen that I would have been a creature to be reckoned with, and totally avoided conflict.

Modifié par Tommy6860, 01 mai 2011 - 08:25 .

[Tommy6860]

Sareth Cousland wrote...

Regarding confirmation bias: A large share of the total DA2 sales (at full price) came from pre-orders. I assume that all who pre-ordered the game had faith in Bioware to deliver a quality product that they would enjoy - and I believe it is actually this group that was most disappointed with the game.

Thing is, "confiramtion bias" is more than naught used as a  defensive meme, more than some real pattern of behavior.

For example, for Stanley Woo to make that comment, though he is an official member of the Bioware community, made the term usless in the context he applied it sicne it concerns a game made by the company he represents. Had someone looking at numbers and opinions on the game, who had nothing to do with ever having played it or with the company that made it, would have a valid point.  What Stanley did was show nothing more than his own form of confirmation bias because others had confirmation bias.

[Elhanan]

Seemed somewhat familiar....

[v_ware]

Tommy6860 wrote...

v_ware wrote...
Stanley Woo is known to be one off the less enjoyable mods on this forum. Almost all have become more rude and agressive since the passionate feedback they get from their fans mainly consists of ripping DA2 to shreds. Which is logical, but not quite the reaction that will soothe the upset fans.

I think it would help if someone from Bioware just said: Sorry, we rushed the game and it was sub-par. Not gonna happen though. Yeah, give us some low-res 9$ crappy appearence DLC instead...

Yes, Stanley can be grating, I have all but said this to him before. As far as what you think Bioware should say, well, I think that it is wrong to expect to have them say anything because you want them. I thoroughly feel the game is sub-par, but I won't impress upon Bioware to mount a campaign for my feeing of "buyer's remorse". What makes the difference is, how I view Bioware for future releases, they are no longer on "automatic".

I know excuses will never happen, but perception wise, it's a bad thing to say all criticism this game recieves to be confirmation bias...

It comes accros as unbelievably arrogant, and it won't help to appease the dissapointed fans. I know it hurts when something you undoubtedly worked very hard on gets smashed like this, but the wise and adult thing to do is being humble, hearing the criticism and learning from it.

Not being a total ass to your fans and dismissing all their critism because of confirmation bias.

[Elhanan]

Stanley Woo wrote...

See confirmation bias. That explains a lot. the rest of it is to be expected and well within the big bell curve of like and don't like.

This is the quote. The only thing even close to ref. "all of us" would be tossing us in a Bell curve. The horror!

[Tommy6860]

v_ware wrote...

Tommy6860 wrote...

v_ware wrote...
Stanley Woo is known to be one off the less enjoyable mods on this forum. Almost all have become more rude and agressive since the passionate feedback they get from their fans mainly consists of ripping DA2 to shreds. Which is logical, but not quite the reaction that will soothe the upset fans.

I think it would help if someone from Bioware just said: Sorry, we rushed the game and it was sub-par. Not gonna happen though. Yeah, give us some low-res 9$ crappy appearence DLC instead...

Yes, Stanley can be grating, I have all but said this to him before. As far as what you think Bioware should say, well, I think that it is wrong to expect to have them say anything because you want them. I thoroughly feel the game is sub-par, but I won't impress upon Bioware to mount a campaign for my feeing of "buyer's remorse". What makes the difference is, how I view Bioware for future releases, they are no longer on "automatic".

I know excuses will never happen, but perception wise, it's a bad thing to say all criticism this game recieves to be confirmation bias...

It comes accros as unbelievably arrogant, and it won't help to appease the dissapointed fans. I know it hurts when something you undoubtedly worked very hard on gets smashed like this, but the wise and adult thing to do is being humble, hearing the criticism and learning from it.

Not being a total ass to your fans and dismissing all their critism because of confirmation bias.

Yes, and I have pointed that out to David not too long ago and in a another thread just earlier, that impressions are somethig to be considered. But, in all honesty, it is the reader to extrapolate arrogance and and demand appeasement.  We read words, then take them to heart when we honeslty cannot say what in the heart is the intention. When the Bioware folks point out that the mad fanbase reasonings are equally the same, then it is this that can be compared. It really comes down to thsoe attempts to making perceptions a reality, I usually reply with this line if that is the case, " If this all seems ugly to you, then maybe that should give you pause". What I mean by that is, I would not be any less arrogant calling someone arrogant. Simply challenge them to their words using critical thinking, not cynicism, or better have them better explain their positions, because in the end, how you conduct your discussions reflects just as much on you, as it does how the others conduct theirs.

[Rockworm503]

Being disappointed in 2 but not hating it enough to cry over it.
I have come to the conclusion that both sides are being very immature.

[v_ware]

Tommy6860 wrote...

v_ware wrote...

Tommy6860 wrote...

v_ware wrote...
Stanley Woo is known to be one off the less enjoyable mods on this forum. Almost all have become more rude and agressive since the passionate feedback they get from their fans mainly consists of ripping DA2 to shreds. Which is logical, but not quite the reaction that will soothe the upset fans.

I think it would help if someone from Bioware just said: Sorry, we rushed the game and it was sub-par. Not gonna happen though. Yeah, give us some low-res 9$ crappy appearence DLC instead...

Yes, Stanley can be grating, I have all but said this to him before. As far as what you think Bioware should say, well, I think that it is wrong to expect to have them say anything because you want them. I thoroughly feel the game is sub-par, but I won't impress upon Bioware to mount a campaign for my feeing of "buyer's remorse". What makes the difference is, how I view Bioware for future releases, they are no longer on "automatic".

I know excuses will never happen, but perception wise, it's a bad thing to say all criticism this game recieves to be confirmation bias...

It comes accros as unbelievably arrogant, and it won't help to appease the dissapointed fans. I know it hurts when something you undoubtedly worked very hard on gets smashed like this, but the wise and adult thing to do is being humble, hearing the criticism and learning from it.

Not being a total ass to your fans and dismissing all their critism because of confirmation bias.

Yes, and I have pointed that out to David not too long ago and in a another thread just earlier, that impressions are somethig to be considered. But, in all honesty, it is the reader to extrapolate arrogance and and demand appeasement.  We read words, then take them to heart when we honeslty cannot say what in the heart is the intention. When the Bioware folks point out that the mad fanbase reasonings are equally the same, then it is this that can be compared. It really comes down to thsoe attempts to making perceptions a reality, I usually reply with this line if that is the case, " If this all seems ugly to you, then maybe that should give you pause". What I mean by that is, I would not be any less arrogant calling someone arrogant. Simply challenge them to their words using critical thinking, not cynicism, or better have them better explain their positions, because in the end, how you conduct your discussions reflects just as much on you, as it does how the others conduct theirs.

Well, the merchants have a motto over here in Belgium: "Customer is king." I have worked in retail (vacationjob or whatever it is in English ) and the first thing they teach you is that the customer is always right. You need to please your customers as much as possible and always be friendly. Normal businesses value their customers, afterall they bring the money.

And I'm not seeing that over here, at all. Just saying.

But then again, treating your customers in such a manner seems to be standard in the gaming industry.

Modifié par v_ware, 01 mai 2011 - 10:16 .

[Tommy6860]

Rockworm503 wrote...

Being disappointed in 2 but not hating it enough to cry over it.
I have come to the conclusion that both sides are being very immature.

Now that's taking the middle ground!

[Tommy6860]

v_ware wrote...

Tommy6860 wrote...

v_ware wrote...

Tommy6860 wrote...

v_ware wrote...
Stanley Woo is known to be one off the less enjoyable mods on this forum. Almost all have become more rude and agressive since the passionate feedback they get from their fans mainly consists of ripping DA2 to shreds. Which is logical, but not quite the reaction that will soothe the upset fans.

I think it would help if someone from Bioware just said: Sorry, we rushed the game and it was sub-par. Not gonna happen though. Yeah, give us some low-res 9$ crappy appearence DLC instead...

Yes, Stanley can be grating, I have all but said this to him before. As far as what you think Bioware should say, well, I think that it is wrong to expect to have them say anything because you want them. I thoroughly feel the game is sub-par, but I won't impress upon Bioware to mount a campaign for my feeing of "buyer's remorse". What makes the difference is, how I view Bioware for future releases, they are no longer on "automatic".

I know excuses will never happen, but perception wise, it's a bad thing to say all criticism this game recieves to be confirmation bias...

It comes accros as unbelievably arrogant, and it won't help to appease the dissapointed fans. I know it hurts when something you undoubtedly worked very hard on gets smashed like this, but the wise and adult thing to do is being humble, hearing the criticism and learning from it.

Not being a total ass to your fans and dismissing all their critism because of confirmation bias.

Yes, and I have pointed that out to David not too long ago and in a another thread just earlier, that impressions are somethig to be considered. But, in all honesty, it is the reader to extrapolate arrogance and and demand appeasement.  We read words, then take them to heart when we honeslty cannot say what in the heart is the intention. When the Bioware folks point out that the mad fanbase reasonings are equally the same, then it is this that can be compared. It really comes down to thsoe attempts to making perceptions a reality, I usually reply with this line if that is the case, " If this all seems ugly to you, then maybe that should give you pause". What I mean by that is, I would not be any less arrogant calling someone arrogant. Simply challenge them to their words using critical thinking, not cynicism, or better have them better explain their positions, because in the end, how you conduct your discussions reflects just as much on you, as it does how the others conduct theirs.

Well, the merchants have a motto over here in Belgium: "Customer is king." I have worked in retail (vacationjob or whatever it is in English ) and the first thing they teach you is that the customer is always right. You need to please your customers as much as possible and always be friendly. Normal businesses value their customers, afterall they bring the money.

And I'm not seeing that over here, at all. Just saying.

But then again, treating your customers in such a manner seems to be standard in the gaming industry.

I disagree with that, customers are not always right.. If my customer kept talking ad hominem, then after a time I have to say 'just leave, you no longer have to buy my products', when there are other customers that liked the product. We can keep screaming out cliches in the hopes we get some kind of apology for feeling we are screwed over, but in the end, I just get the feeling there will not be enough satisfaction with that.This isn't me standing up for Bioware, but rather to reasoning. I never understtood that line of thinking because it simply admits failure and aquiescense to one side, just because they have buying power in the face of maybe being wrong. The best bet is simply not to buy anything Bioware again. I cannot say I will go that route, but if ME3 turns out to be a bust, well, then I may well just move on.

Let me ask you this, should Bioware apologize to all of those who were really disappointed with Origins? (see, "The Mirror has two Faces")

[v_ware]

Tommy6860 wrote...

v_ware wrote...

Tommy6860 wrote...

v_ware wrote...
I know excuses will never happen, but perception wise, it's a bad thing to say all criticism this game recieves to be confirmation bias...

It comes accros as unbelievably arrogant, and it won't help to appease the dissapointed fans. I know it hurts when something you undoubtedly worked very hard on gets smashed like this, but the wise and adult thing to do is being humble, hearing the criticism and learning from it.

Not being a total ass to your fans and dismissing all their critism because of confirmation bias.

Yes, and I have pointed that out to David not too long ago and in a another thread just earlier, that impressions are somethig to be considered. But, in all honesty, it is the reader to extrapolate arrogance and and demand appeasement.  We read words, then take them to heart when we honeslty cannot say what in the heart is the intention. When the Bioware folks point out that the mad fanbase reasonings are equally the same, then it is this that can be compared. It really comes down to thsoe attempts to making perceptions a reality, I usually reply with this line if that is the case, " If this all seems ugly to you, then maybe that should give you pause". What I mean by that is, I would not be any less arrogant calling someone arrogant. Simply challenge them to their words using critical thinking, not cynicism, or better have them better explain their positions, because in the end, how you conduct your discussions reflects just as much on you, as it does how the others conduct theirs.

Well, the merchants have a motto over here in Belgium: "Customer is king." I have worked in retail (vacationjob or whatever it is in English ) and the first thing they teach you is that the customer is always right. You need to please your customers as much as possible and always be friendly. Normal businesses value their customers, afterall they bring the money.

And I'm not seeing that over here, at all. Just saying.

But then again, treating your customers in such a manner seems to be standard in the gaming industry.

I disagree with that, customers are not always right.. If my customer kept talking ad hominem, then after a time I have to say 'just leave, you no longer have to buy my products', when there are other customers that liked the product. We can keep screaming out cliches in the hopes we get some kind of apology for feeling we are screwed over, but in the end, I just get the feeling there will not be enough satisfaction with that.This isn't me standing up for Bioware, but rather to reasoning. I never understtood that line of thinking because it simply admits failure and aquiescense to one side, just because they have buying power in the face of maybe being wrong. The best bet is simply not to buy anything Bioware again. I cannot say I will go that route, but if ME3 turns out to be a bust, well, then I may well just move on.

Let me ask you this, should Bioware apologize to all of those who were really disappointed with Origins? (see, "The Mirror has two Faces")

I don't always agree with "Customer is king," believe me. However I am a firm believer of being polite and understanding while dealing with customers. Woo does come across as arrogant, you agreed he's blunt. The OP wasn't using ad hominems, neither am I. If I'm talking about the behaviour of a company and it's employees it's logical I'm going to critize them "on the man."

If they don't appoligize at least recognize this game was a rushjob and mediocre. Perception wise people like a big company that recognizes it's faults. Remember the ****storm when DA2 was just released with the user who couldn't activate his game because he was suspended from the forum (that was me btw)? When they apoligized and fixed things the storm subsided. On the other hand there is the example of the metacritic bioware employee thing. EA/Bioware made an arrogant statement on that matter. People don't liked it, it's bad marketing.

And the buying power is ALWAYS right. Basic economics: Sales drop because of changes, they'll revert to a version more related to the original. (New coke) 

Irrelevant since DAO did not recieve this amount criticism. It was widely reviewed as a very good RPG (with flaws off course)

Modifié par v_ware, 01 mai 2011 - 11:16 .

[Lord of Mu]

If they don't appoligize at least recognize this game was a rushjob and mediocre. Perception wise people like a big company that recognizes it's faults. Remember the ****storm when DA2 was just released with the user who couldn't activate his game because he was suspended from the forum (that was me btw)? When they apoligized and fixed things the storm subsided. On the other hand there is the example of the metacritic bioware employee thing. EA/Bioware made an arrogant statement on that matter. People don't liked it, it's bad marketing.

And the buying power is ALWAYS right. Basic economics: Sales drop because of changes, they'll revert to a version more related to the original. (New coke) 

Irrelevant since DAO did not recieve this amount criticism. It was widely reviewed as a very good RPG (with flaws off course)

I don't think Bioware is going to do that. At release the game was riding on the success of DA:O and with the added Buy D2 and get a free copy of ME2 deal that just went by I'm sure the sales figures are looking relatively nice. Bioware isn't about to admit their product is a few bars lower than DA:O.

Certainly the game is in the grey area between blatant denial on the part of the developer and gross exaggeration on the part of the player base. I’d sooner Bioware learn from the successes and failures of DA2 and make a product that raises the bar than an apology.

Modifié par Lord of Mu, 01 mai 2011 - 11:31 .

[Yrkoon]

Tommy6860 wrote...


Let me ask you this, should Bioware apologize to all of those who were really disappointed with Origins? (see, "The Mirror has two Faces")

  First, as mentioned, this is  sorta irrelevant since DA:O  enjoyed immensely positive  critical reception.

Second, haven't they already apologized?   The Devs hate on DA:O all the time, and constantly point out  to its few critics that  with DA2 they've strived to 'correct' DA:O's flaws for them.   Seriously.   I have never seen a company bash their own product  as much as Laidlaw has to DA:O.   I remember seeing/reading some interview with him where  he pretty much DID  flat  out apologise for it.   Made me nauseous.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 01 mai 2011 - 11:40 .

[v_ware]

Lord of Mu wrote...

If they don't appoligize at least recognize this game was a rushjob and mediocre. Perception wise people like a big company that recognizes it's faults. Remember the ****storm when DA2 was just released with the user who couldn't activate his game because he was suspended from the forum (that was me btw)? When they apoligized and fixed things the storm subsided. On the other hand there is the example of the metacritic bioware employee thing. EA/Bioware made an arrogant statement on that matter. People don't liked it, it's bad marketing.

And the buying power is ALWAYS right. Basic economics: Sales drop because of changes, they'll revert to a version more related to the original. (New coke) 

Irrelevant since DAO did not recieve this amount criticism. It was widely reviewed as a very good RPG (with flaws off course)

I don't think Bioware is going to do that. At release the game was riding on the success of DA:O and with the added Buy D2 and get a free copy of ME2 deal that just went by I'm sure the sales figures are looking relatively nice. Bioware isn't about to admit their product is a few bars lower than DA:O.

Certainly the game is in the grey area between blatant denial on the part of the developer and gross exaggeration on the part of the player base. I’d sooner Bioware learn from the successes and failures of DA2 and make a product that raises the bar than an apology.

Talking about sales: 

(source: http://social.biowar...1/index/7236826)
Might wanna rethink that.
Pre-orders and word of mouth are one hell of a thing.

Modifié par v_ware, 01 mai 2011 - 12:07 .

[Sharn01]

Stanley Woo wrote...

See confirmation bias. That explains a lot. the rest of it is to be expected and well within the big bell curve of like and don't like.

I read

Ah yes, people who didnt like Dragon Age 2, we have dismissed this claim.

[DragonRageGT]

While I am a big critic of some of DA2 changes when compared to Origins, particularly the Mass Effectization of the whole thing and the blatant disregard for so many unique features and details that Origins has given us, despite all bugs and unfixed issues that persist to this date (very EA like I must say), Dragon Age 2 has still enough good to make me enjoy it a lot. It is really a cool game to play while I wait for that promises to be the greatest cRPG ever, The Witcher 2!

But a "good" game as a sequel to a "great" game is still only that. And some or most of us were really expecting a "The Godfather 2" sequel. A sequel that is a masterpiece and honors everything that made The Godfather a masterpiece and one of the best movies ever.

I think that what EA and some of their employees may have hated about Origins is that they could not patch the game for the consoles as fast as they could for the PC, generating some losses of sales for that market and reaching a point where they simply will not fix some issues of Origins/Awakening just because they cannot do it for the consoles, because of patch size, code or whatever.

So they made a game with that in mind, perhaps. But honestly, a DLC to give companions new looks just like they did with ME2 after Mass Effect, does say something about the company, to me.

This is just one of the million things that made Origins a masterpiece, to me:



As for the Confirmation Bias that Mr. Woo kindly mentioned, it also work the other way. People in the company may use the same cunning to justify the changes made.

Modifié par RageGT, 01 mai 2011 - 12:11 .

[Tommy6860]

Yrkoon wrote...

Tommy6860 wrote...


Let me ask you this, should Bioware apologize to all of those who were really disappointed with Origins? (see, "The Mirror has two Faces")

  First, as mentioned, this is  sorta irrelevant since DA:O  enjoyed immensely positive  critical reception.

Second, haven't they already apologized?   The Devs hate on DA:O all the time, and constantly point out  to its few critics that  with DA2 they've strived to 'correct' DA:O's flaws for them.   Seriously.   I have never seen a company bash their own product  as much as Laidlaw has to DA:O.   I remember seeing/reading some interview with him where  he pretty much DID  flat  out apologise for it.   Made me nauseous.

But you're discussing the merits of why an apology should be given based on the quality of the game from those disliked it, along with a few who are not good with PR and the press from Bioware. Do those few who "hated" (which I think it just a plain extreme use of the word when they actually never said that), represent the whole of the team from Bioware? Didn't the ME team say they are going back to using the RPG elements, inventory systems, etc from ME1 in ME3 because of fans feedback, is that an apology? Wasn't the reaction to ME2 from ME the same? They went a different direction with DA2 from Origins that I didn't like for sure, and it is apparent that it is reflecting in sales, they are paying for it now. But now everyone wants an apology as well.

The bottom line, they shouldn't have to apologize for he game, in spite that you think aggregate game scores of Origins as a reason for not having aplogize to those fans who still disliked it. It's poor reasoning and mostly out of emotion, bias and ad hominem. I remember all too well the flame wars that went on when Origins was released. I absolutely feel DA2 is not anywhere near the qualtiy of Origins, i played it twice, but that is all can do with it, I cannot stand it. But my opinion it is based on the gameplay, the style and the real lack of RPG elements, not that it is a different game from Origins or that is doesn't play exactly like Origins. They made different it for reasons to appeal to a larger crowd and it isn't working out.

If Laidlaw, Silverman, etals. actually said they hated Origins, and ripped its fanbase, then they should apologize for making those comments to that fanbase, but not for the game, they are spearate issues. But I have yet to see when they have said "hate" in their Origins discussions with the press or otherwise. Do you have actual links where they actually made these comments?

[Tommy6860]

v_ware wrote...

I don't always agree with "Customer is king," believe me. However I am a firm believer of being polite and understanding while dealing with customers. Woo does come across as arrogant, you agreed he's blunt. The OP wasn't using ad hominems, neither am I. If I'm talking about the behaviour of a company and it's employees it's logical I'm going to critize them "on the man."

But reading in these forums I have read where a few of the dev think they could have done things differently, but then again, hindsight is always 20/20. But you're genralizing that Bioware as whole is exhibiting this behavior, when it is not.

If they don't appoligize at least recognize this game was a rushjob and mediocre. Perception wise people like a big company that recognizes it's faults. Remember the ****storm when DA2 was just released with the user who couldn't activate his game because he was suspended from the forum (that was me btw)? When they apoligized and fixed things the storm subsided. On the other hand there is the example of the metacritic bioware employee thing. EA/Bioware made an arrogant statement on that matter. People don't liked it, it's bad marketing.

Aplogizing for doing you wrong for purported forum activity is correct, because they did you worng individually, but apologizing for a game you don't like. Again, why should they apologize for the game or even admit it was a rush job, seriously what purpose would that serve? Can you imagine the gaming press if that happened and what that would entail? They put out a product assuming it would attract a larger crowd, it is failing terribly, the websites have hit this as well so much and the bad press is still happening, that it seems now if Bioware doesn't bleed sorrow and remorse, it just simply isn't good enough. Many businesses have made descisions like that, but they are risks, now we need to apologize for them taking risks, go figure.

And the buying power is ALWAYS right. Basic economics: Sales drop because of changes, they'll revert to a version more related to the original. (New coke) 

Exactly, don't buy their games anymore, that's what makes the changes you like. If ME3 turns out to be poor quality in my eyes, that may be it for Bioware in my gaming catalogue They read these forums, as well as correlate the sales figures, then they decide on the results. Would you rather they made a change for the better, or just apologize and move on to forget about it?

Irrelevant since DAO did not recieve this amount criticism. It was widely reviewed as a very good RPG (with flaws off course)

Not irrelevant, when you dismiss the group of fans who actually like DA2 for their own reasons. I may not agree with why they like it, but who am I to tell them they shouldn't, just for the sakes of the Origins downtrodden to get an apology note? How would this sound to those who like the game:

To all Bioware Fans,

We sincerely apologize for putting out a rushed, poor quality game that followed in the light of a great predecessor and also admit we did such forcing it out in a much too short development period. Again, we are deeply sorry for Dragon Age 2 and will strive to honor "only" those who disliked the game, the others simply do not count.

Sincerely,
The Bioware Team

That's about how it would sound too.

Being reviewed as a good game shouldn't hold sway against those who also didn't like Origins; that's real bias there, and as far as I remember, they are customers too as well as are those who liked DA2.

Modifié par Tommy6860, 01 mai 2011 - 12:39 .