53 réponses à ce sujet

[Xerxes52]

noxsachi wrote...

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Fortunately next game, the mana bar will be removed. Unfortunately, instead you'll have to load 'Lyrium Clips' into your staves that you will use to fire spells. More clips will be left on the battlefield in strategic locations and contained inside the chest cavities of exploded enemies.

Enjoy.

Is it sad that instead of the horror of ME2 I thought of this instead... I might love Magical Girl things too much though...

As long as I can punch through a capital ship with it, I'm fine with that.

[wowpwnslol]

Filament wrote...

I say DA should bring back Vancian casting.

Agreed.

But, of course, that won't happen as it wouldn't sit too well with modern generation of gamers who need instant gratification and hate to plan and think.

[marshalleck]

wowpwnslol wrote...

Filament wrote...

I say DA should bring back Vancian casting.

Agreed.

But, of course, that won't happen as it wouldn't sit too well with modern generation of gamers who need instant gratification and hate to plan and think.

Heh. It's not even that hard to plan usually, you just have to listen to what NPCs are telling your you're looking for, and read the journal if you forget. An evil cleric doing creeper perv stuff in the local graveyard at night? Select all your protection from evil/undead/paralysis etc. spells, and drain restorations. Basilisks, as previously mentioned? Stone to flesh. Dragons? Protection from fire (or whatever breath weapon the dragon in question uses) and anything that will buff up saving throws. 

Easy as that. Really not hard at all. 

Modifié par marshalleck, 27 avril 2011 - 07:23 .

[Ryllen Laerth Kriel]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Filament wrote...

I say DA should bring back Vancian casting.

We should inscribe runes with our mouse to cast spells like Black and White or Arx Fatlis.

That actually sounds kind of fun. It deffinitely flies in the opposite direction of where DA 2 was headed so I can't see it ever happening.

[marshalleck]

Fun isn't the word I'd use to describe Arx Fatalis, but it has been many years since I last attempted to play that game.

[Cyberarmy]

Meh only used mana pot for mage my Hawke at the Nightmare Rock Wraith becuse i didnt have any regen armor pieces.
Except that fight i dont remember using any mana pots at all.


And +1 for Vancian Casting!!!!!!
But honestly İ dont really think we ever see that again in any Bioware game,
They started to dumb it down at NWN.

[1varangian]

The cooldowns are a silly mechanic for an RPG and should be axed and sent back to WoW or where ever they came from.

If you need some kind of downtime for spells for balance reasons, it can be done by introducing longer casting times and/or a recovery time after casting a powerful spell during which you can't cast anything.

Modifié par 1varangian, 27 avril 2011 - 08:32 .

[marshalleck]

1varangian wrote...

The cooldowns are a silly mechanic for an RPG and should be axed and sent back to WoW or where ever they came from.

If you need some kind of downtime for spells for balance reasons, it can be done by introducing longer casting times and/or a recovery time after casting a powerful spell during which you can't cast anything.

But the bolded part is precisely what a cooldown is. I assume you just don't like them applied globally? 

Modifié par marshalleck, 27 avril 2011 - 09:26 .

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

To be fair, cooldowns in the context of Dragon Age 2 only apply to the spell in question, not as block for all spells the mage has available.

I don't think it will win popular support, especially with the whack-a-mole encounter design that Bioware are probably going to bring to Dragon Age 3, but again, +1 for Vancian magic.

The core combat mechanics for Dragon Age 2 could easily be tweaked for Vancian magic, it just requires combat and enemy design to be more like Origins where quantity of enemies are reduced, but individual quality of enemies are increased. The variety of enemies along with characteristics ought to be increased too, allowing for certain strategies and certains depending on the enemies encountered. Also skills and abilities. Overwhelm should make a return.

But again, probably wouldn't go well with the crowd who love the ninja spawning enemies and exploding bodies whack a mole combat Dragon Age 2 has.

The core mechanics are probably better than in Origins, but the enemy design is awful imo.

Modifié par mrcrusty, 27 avril 2011 - 09:33 .

[scylis]

Vancian casting should stay where it is in both video games and D&D: the grave.

The amount of in-game time spent "resting" to get your heavy hitters back up to speed was sometimes ludicrous in older games. Either that or you had your casters contribute very, very little while saving your spells for the big fight. It's not about "not wanting/being able to plan", it's that Vancian casting is just a very poor resource management system to use that doesn't seem to correspond to the vast, vast majority of fantasy stories/characters/settings that I've encountered. Outside of old editions of D&D (and things based on it) and Jack Vance books, who actually uses anything similar? Cooldowns and/or mana seem to fit much, much better.

Modifié par scylis, 27 avril 2011 - 07:35 .

[thermalware]

I actually preferred no cooldown on mana and health pots in DAO

[Zkyire]

DAO MAdhatter wrote...

If we have cool down periods, we dont need mana, if we have mana we dont need cool down periods. Pick one Bioware!

Right now, Dao & DA 2 are being killed by the  cheap combination of both, HAving a spell take a full minute to be usable again is annoying, but having to constantly down lerium potions to be able to use that ultra slow spell is down right agravating.

No that doesn't make sense.

You get rid of cooldowns for what? You still have enough mana to cast Firestorm multiple times before going oom.

So by getting rid of cooldowns you'd just spam Firestorm until the whole map is engulfed in flame and everything is dead.

Modifié par IEatWhatIPoo, 27 avril 2011 - 08:37 .

[Teddie Sage]

Keep the Mana Bar. Just reduce the cooldowns, please.

[DeathStride]

Alistairlover94 wrote...

I say keep the Mana bar, remove cooldowns. The cooldown periods in DA2 encourages kiting, which I find is not very tactical.

I take it you've never played an RTS? Starcraft 2 for example... Kiting can be used as an incredibly effective and "strategic" tactic there. Although, I must admit I was playing the devil's advocate, I myself agree that there really isn't anything strategic or complex about running figure 8's around the pillars screaming bloody murder while the Arishok chases you.

It would be nice to have shorter cooldowns so you use more abilities(whether as mage, or warrior/rogue) instead of spamming the basic attack- it would certainly make combat more interesting. 

Modifié par DeathStride, 27 avril 2011 - 09:18 .

[Tantum Dic Verbo]

wowpwnslol wrote...

Filament wrote...

I say DA should bring back Vancian casting.

Agreed.

But, of course, that won't happen as it wouldn't sit too well with modern generation of gamers who need instant gratification and hate to plan and think.

As far as I can tell, it wouldn't sit too well with old-timers like me, either.  Vancian spellcasting has always been a favorite target of house rules.

[wowpwnslol]

Alistairlover94 wrote...

I say keep the Mana bar, remove cooldowns. The cooldown periods in DA2 encourages kiting, which I find is not very tactical.

Completely clueless. Please refrain from posting balance suggestions ever again.

[Lalue]

I don't see the problem with the current mana/cooldown system. I think it's perfect for the style of combat we had in DA2. I don't even remember having to craft mana potions...playing on hard tho.
Why do i feel like people are always trying to sweep every tiny corner of the game to find issues...

[naughty99]

Alistairlover94 wrote...

I say keep the Mana bar, remove cooldowns. The cooldown periods in DA2 encourages kiting, which I find is not very tactical.

The ridiculously short potions cooldowns in DAO encourages spamming cheap health potions, which I find much less tactical than kiting. 

[Tantum Dic Verbo]

Filament wrote...

Yeah... I was just kidding about Vancian casting, by the way. I'm not particularly fond of the idea. At least, not the way it's implemented in NWN where it's dubious how often you should allow your characters to rest if you want to consider yourself a real man.

Yeah one of the (many) problems with Vancian spellcasting in D&D was that it implied some sort of game mechanic for time that really didn't exist.  It created the "five-minute workday", in which the adventurers would unload all of their spellcasting in the first encounter or two, and then withdraw to rest up.  That didn't seem to be what Gygax and Arneson had in mind, but the game mechanics encouraged it.

[AlanC9]

scylis wrote...
It's not about "not wanting/being able to plan", it's that Vancian casting is just a very poor resource management system to use that doesn't seem to correspond to the vast, vast majority of fantasy stories/characters/settings that I've encountered. Outside of old editions of D&D (and things based on it) and Jack Vance books, who actually uses anything similar? 

I think Zelazny used something similar in the later Amber books, though the character who used that kind of spellcasting could also do some magic on-the-fly. I can't think of any other examples offhand.

[AlanC9]

Tantum Dic Verbo wrote...

Yeah one of the (many) problems with Vancian spellcasting in D&D was that it implied some sort of game mechanic for time that really didn't exist.  It created the "five-minute workday", in which the adventurers would unload all of their spellcasting in the first encounter or two, and then withdraw to rest up.  That didn't seem to be what Gygax and Arneson had in mind, but the game mechanics encouraged it.

Well, I think the idea was that the DM would somehow control this sort of thing by having the enemy complex react to repeated forays, so you'd be better off doing lots of damage in the first strike. There's some material about that in the DMG, anyway.

It's hard to tell from the modules, since the DM instructions for a classic mod like the G-series or ToEE basically amount to "don't present this adventure the way it appears here."

I think any resource-based gameplay tends to ruin pacing, with ruination becoming more complete the more you need to manage resources. Unless you just abolish sense, like Bio did with Chateau Irenicus.

[Cowboy_christo]

Id advocate vacian casting if id make sense for DA lore but it doesnt. Mage in DA are naturally born with it(like a sorcerer in DnD). There are no mage like in DnD who studies magic just to do it. Every mage in thedas are born with affinity to magic and only studies it in order to control it.

The witcher, combat system is a good one that i would like for DA3. In The witcher(especially on hard) you had to get info on the quest you were about to do and prepare potions accordingly(black blood potion for blood sucker, poison resist potion for basilisk or other weird floral creature, night' eye potion for dark cave/crypt, etc) While also having magic that can be cast on the fly.

The potions werent magic per say, buth having both element of strategy and tactic would be ideal.