297 réponses à ce sujet

[Rurik_Niall]

Morrowind, Oblivion, Mass Effect while on foot, Mass Effect 2 period, KotOR both 1 and 2, all prime examples of intuitive controls. Not once did I ever have to do anything beyond give the controls listed in the manual a once over.

[Lunatic LK47]

Chaos Gate wrote...


Sorry, but if you f***** up in the Mako, then it was entirely your fault. Stop being such a baby.

And yes, you have to get used to the controls in almost every game. Nothing is "pick up and play."

Let me say this again. **** controls=/= Player skills.

Defective car parts=/= driver skill.

Go screw yourself, ******.

[Lunatic LK47]

Notanything wrote...


The only games that I imagine are "pick up and play" are your average generic first person shooters with small features.  Other than that, you're right.  A majority of the games I've played I have to get used to, it doesn't usually take too long though.  Whoever said this is forgetting that the developers certainly don't think the game is an "automatically know how to play", that's why they include tutorials in most modern games that pop up as we go along.  Because people don't always know how to play flawlessly.

Go enjoy the dick-sucking contest, ******.

Modifié par Lunatic LK47, 01 mai 2011 - 07:20 .

[Notanything]

Lunatic LK47 wrote...

Notanything wrote...


The only games that I imagine are "pick up and play" are your average generic first person shooters with small features.  Other than that, you're right.  A majority of the games I've played I have to get used to, it doesn't usually take too long though.  Whoever said this is forgetting that the developers certainly don't think the game is an "automatically know how to play", that's why they include tutorials in most modern games that pop up as we go along.  Because people don't always know how to play flawlessly.

Go enjoy the dick-sucking contest, ****.

Somebody is upset.

[Chaos Gate]

Lunatic LK47 wrote...

Go screw yourself, ******.

Lunatic LK47 wrote...

Go enjoy the dick-sucking contest, ******.

Aww, did I hurt your feelings? What, did my objective and substantiated argument make your whiny and subjective posts look like the rubbish that they are?

A few months ago, I played two racing games: Blur and Split/Second. Both were brilliant, but both had controls that I had to get used to. But did I ****, cry and complain, like an attention starved four year old crying for his mommy? No. I hunkered down, and adapted myself to the controls of each game, and indeed, the controls of each car. They didn't take long to learn, and in the end, when I completed both games, it was well worth it.

Same with the Mako. There was nothing wrong with it, or the terrain. You were just a poor driver, and you couldn't be arsed learning. Instead, you screamed, moaned and cried foul, and BioWare responded by removing a large chunk of the game in the sequel, which contributed to how disembowelled Mass Effect 2 felt overall.

Furthermore, you realise that with the above two posts, you have just humiliated yourself in front of the entire forum, and lost whatever credibility that remained attached to your posts? Exactly how old are you? Should you even be playing BioWare games?

If BioWare have to pander to gamers like you, then it's no wonder their games are deteriorating in quality. Grow up.

[Captain_Obvious_au]

Rurik_Niall wrote...

You do understand the meaning of intuitive don't you? Intuitive controls are instinctive, there's nothing to figure out because they're second nature. The controls for Mass Effect on foot are intuitive, WASD move you around as you'd expect, shift sprints, spacebar brings up the power and weapon menu, etc. These are simple, intuitive controls, that makes them good. The Mako controls are the exact opposite. This isn't Street Fighter or Mortal Kombat where complicated controls are a core component to the game.

How are the Mako controls any different? Press forward (I never use W,A,S,D) and it goes forward, press back and it goes back. Move the mouse and the turret turns, click the mouse buttons and the weapons fire. It's exactly the same as Shepard on foot.

Modifié par Captain_Obvious_au, 01 mai 2011 - 08:08 .

[Lunatic LK47]

Chaos Gate wrote...


Furthermore, you realise that with the above two posts, you have just humiliated yourself in front of the entire forum, and lost whatever credibility that remained attached to your posts? Exactly how old are you? Should you even be playing BioWare games?

Like how you lost whatever credibility by calling us babies or bad gamers? Gotta love double-standards. Consider yourself dead on arrival if we happen to meet in real life. Don't you have something better to do with your high horse?

[AlanC9]

Chaos Gate wrote...
A few months ago, I played two racing games: Blur and Split/Second. Both were brilliant, but both had controls that I had to get used to. But did I ****, cry and complain, like an attention starved four year old crying for his mommy? No. I hunkered down, and adapted myself to the controls of each game, and indeed, the controls of each car. They didn't take long to learn, and in the end, when I completed both games, it was well worth it.

Same with the Mako. There was nothing wrong with it, or the terrain. You were just a poor driver, and you couldn't be arsed learning. Instead, you screamed, moaned and cried foul, and BioWare responded by removing a large chunk of the game in the sequel, which contributed to how disembowelled Mass Effect 2 felt overall.

Wait a minute. You really think that Bio didn't put the Mako in ME2 because too many players didn't like the controls? As opposed to not liking the pointless environments you use it in?

[Notanything]

I can agree that games are meant to have intuitive controls, but most of what you describe I consider basics, if not common knowledge. I think the way things have been as far as basic movements have always remained the same. Unless controls these days have changed from being a control stick, joystick, control pad, or keys for movement, I'm sure it's always been the same. Games teach you the basics of a game from shooting, attacking, using abilities, and whatever. But it also leaves room for development.

Now sure, i'm not saying it's a particularly good thing, but the Mako was a type of feature in the game that could be maintained through knowledge of basic controls without for instance, coming to the conclusion that the jets are good for dodging projectiles. Those types of things are the sort you learn on your own. When I first controlled the Mako I explored and learned things like scaling terrain was easier when you travel almost in a diagonal fashion, instead of slowly inching forth trying to go up directly vertical.

That sort of stuff, I think is one of the things that help enhance the feeling of "intuitive controls", when there are controls that take you time to acquaint yourself with, but at the same time giving you room for figuring things out on your own, learning some tactics, and ways to navigate, or get through something using what you learned, beyond the basics.

But again, though I defend and love the Mako, I can agree that some of it's features were most definitely poorly executed based on evidence others bring forth. But I still love it, and maybe despite the complaints, it, or something similar will be created with much more refined controls that people won't call "frustrating", or "crappy".

Also..

Lunatic LK47 wrote...

Chaos Gate wrote...


Furthermore,
you realise that with the above two posts, you have just humiliated
yourself in front of the entire forum, and lost whatever credibility
that remained attached to your posts? Exactly how old are you? Should
you even be playing BioWare games?

Like how you lost
whatever credibility by calling us babies or bad gamers? Gotta love
double-standards. Consider yourself dead on arrival if we happen to meet
in real life. Don't you have something better to do with your high
horse?

Damn, talk about a tough guy.

Modifié par Notanything, 01 mai 2011 - 08:32 .

[spacehamsterZH]

Captain_Obvious_au wrote...

As a PC user, I just didn't care about the release of Mass Effect - after all, it was an xbox exclusive, so why bother? It did catch my eye though when I noticed that you had a vehicle and could free-roam to a certain extent.

Uh, plenty of other games allow you to roam environments freely, and unlike the Mako sections, it's not in a square map of randomly generated terrain that isn't suited for the vehicle you're driving and populated with nothing except the same Frogger minigame and the same two buildings over and over and over. It wasn't unique, and it certainly wasn't well implemented.

Also...



That said, I think the Mako was miles cooler looking than the Hammerhead, so I wouldn't mind if it was brought back with better controls and physics, and with exploration sections that are actually interesting. But like with everything else Bioware have attempted where they stepped outside their traditional comfort zone, they need to look at how it's done in games that got it right and learn from that. Just farting around a boring map with nothing to discover in a vehicle whose controls make you want to pull your hair out isn't good enough.

[Captain_Obvious_au]

Games like what? You do get free-roam in games like GTA, but if we're looking at more 'conventional' games it's often there, such as with KotOR, but far more limited than in ME.

[spacehamsterZH]

Captain_Obvious_au wrote...

Games like what? You do get free-roam in games like GTA, but if we're looking at more 'conventional' games it's often there, such as with KotOR, but far more limited than in ME.

Honestly, I don't see how the GTA games aren't "conventional" yet by now, the series has been around forever. See also: Red Dead Redemption or Infamous.

But if we're talking RPGs, how about Fallout 3 or Oblivion?

[mcsupersport]

Lunatic LK47 wrote...

mcsupersport wrote...


You aren't REQUIRED to scale anything, the mineral quests are OPTIONAL and I usually just forgo them simply because they don't really bring enough money or XP to be worth the hunt later.

Uh, no. Telling someone they can not do it is NOT a valid argument. If something is ****, something is ****.

You can complete the game without EVER getting ONE SINGLE MINERAL, so NO it isn't REQUIRED as you stated.
I also noted you totally ignored that I completed your so called "HOUR WASTING MAP" in around 20 minutes while having an issue with my computer that required a game restart.  The controls for PC in the MAKO are wasd and mouse for turret, which is the same as most other driving games on the comp.  The main issues with that most don't like are the terrain(like you who don't know how to use the map and drive around mountains or just drive to the less steep side), the bouncy ball physics and the barren repetitiveness.

You can complete just about every map in 20 minutes or less doing everything, or around 2-10 if you only hit the really important parts on a high level speed run. 

I am sorry you are such an completionist that you can't leave one single item on a map when it is one you really don't need to complete the game, when it obviously causes you such pain and hardship and ruins the game. 

I am also sorry that just because some people don't agree with you, you have to resort to the language and demeaneur of a 4th grader.

[JaegerBane]

Rurik_Niall wrote...

The Hammerhead with the Mako's armour and shields and seeker missiles that actually seek would be just about ideal. Superior controls, good defences, yes please. Hell I'd settle for half the Mako's defences, as long as I can easily outmaneuver enemies I can get by with a tank made of glass.

You're missing the point, rurik. I'm not asking whether it whether you'd want it, I'm asking whether you'd think this would offer enough challenge for it to be a worthwhile addition. Judging by your comments it seems the biggest problem you have with the Mako wasn't the controls, it was more you couldn't wtfpwn eveything on screen in seconds or run rings around everyone.

While fair comments, this is woefully inadequate reasoning to brand something as 'terrible', nor is it reason to claim that anyone who disagrees should be silent in the face of the 'majority' opinion. You want a more maneuverable vehicle. Fine. So do I. That doesn't somehow mean something that isn't what you wanted qualifies as 'terrible'. It's nothing more than a matter of opinion, and it should be treated as such.

[JaegerBane]

Captain_Obvious_au wrote...

Rurik_Niall wrote...

You do understand the meaning of intuitive don't you? Intuitive controls are instinctive, there's nothing to figure out because they're second nature. The controls for Mass Effect on foot are intuitive, WASD move you around as you'd expect, shift sprints, spacebar brings up the power and weapon menu, etc. These are simple, intuitive controls, that makes them good. The Mako controls are the exact opposite. This isn't Street Fighter or Mortal Kombat where complicated controls are a core component to the game.

How are the Mako controls any different? Press forward (I never use W,A,S,D) and it goes forward, press back and it goes back. Move the mouse and the turret turns, click the mouse buttons and the weapons fire. It's exactly the same as Shepard on foot.

You certainly live up to your name, good sir. For some reason I haven't been able to fathom, an apparently large number of people seem to have pre-decided that the Mako has unituitive controls and argue such, without ever apparently considering that the Mako's controls aren't actually particularly different to any other similar vehicle - or Shepard himself, for that matter.

[Hunter-Wolf]

OMG .. i still can't believe there are people still complaining about the Mako to this day this strongly.

@Rurik_Niall
On foot controls are naturally intuitive as the must be .. i don't know what does that has to do with vehicular controls ... what's wrong if they have a steeper learning curve than the on-foot control/handling .. so when you actually "learn" how to drive the vehicle efficiently you feel rewarded ... there are numerous examples of this in many games with vehicles (take Halo on PC .. using the mouse to direct the vehicle was very unintuitive at first as most vehicles before were controlled with WASD controls .. but once got used to it it was simply AWESOME) .. and the proof there is nothing wrong with the Mako controls is that many people actually managed to master controlling it and enjoy that experience (including me) .. not only that .. but actually managed to use it in combat very effectively (ramming large geth then shooting them to death or send them flying off ledges, running over soldiers, jumping to dodge attacks while zoomed and sniping enemies from distance .. etc etc) .. and i also have to say they must return manual targeting in ME3 .. auto-lock in ME2 was really crappy.

Overall Mako in ME1 was really an impressive experience and IMO there is NOTHING inherently broken about the Mako itself .. it is the barren environments that was annoying .. if i and many others could master controlling it then it's clear whose problem this is.

And someone did mention GTA .. IMO many RPG actually could use more vehicles and vehicular combat to expand the breadth of the experience (and add customization options in form of vehicle parts and customization).. i wish we would be able to ride horses in Witcher 2 or Dragons in Skyrim.

[JaegerBane]

Lunatic LK47 wrote...
Like how you lost whatever credibility
by calling us babies or bad gamers? Gotta love
double-standards. Consider yourself dead on arrival if we happen to meet
in real life. Don't you have something better to do with your high
horse?

A word to the wise - there's little point in trying to criticise someone's credibility when you've resorted to calling people 'pricks'.
Hypocrisy doesn't make anyone look good.

Modifié par JaegerBane, 01 mai 2011 - 03:16 .

[slimgrin]

Lunatic LK47 wrote...

Rurik_Niall wrote...

Good controls don't require "getting used to," that's the exact opposite of intuitive. Challenge needs to come from proper sources, strong AI, well designed and balanced levels, not from poorly designed controls.

Ding ding ding

It was the enviromments that were the real issue, I'm surprised some people still aren't getting this. The Mako handled like a military vehicle, allowing me to zoom in, use 2 weapon types, plough through weaker enemies. It was a great addition to the game and took some skill to use. But Bioware likes to recylce stuff, and the planets in ME1 not only got repetitive, but they were poorly designed, so that you had to scale near vertical cliffs to get anywhere ( especially when finding minerals).  

So instead they gave us the papermache HammerHead, which not only has POINTLESS combat mechanics, but effectively transports the player back to a dingy arcade in 90's. 

Modifié par slimgrin, 01 mai 2011 - 04:15 .

[JaegerBane]

slimgrin wrote...
It was the enviromments that were the real issue, I'm surprised some people still aren't getting this. The Mako handled like a military vehicle, allowing me to zoom in, use 2 weapon types, plough through weaker enemies. It was a great addition to the game and took some skill to use. But Bioware likes to recylce stuff, and the planets in ME1 not only got repetitive, but they were poorly designed, so that you had to scale near vertical cliffs to get anywhere ( especially when finding minerals).  

Indeed. There was, more often than not, a fairly mild route to wherever you needed to go to accomplish a mission (Casbin, Nodacrux etc) but if you wanted to get all minerals etc, you has no choice but to crawl around areas that chucked the Mako about like a pinball. That was the problem. On flat or mildly irregular terrain, it wasn't that bad.

So instead they gave us the papermache HammerHead, which not only has POINTLESS combat mechanics, but effectively transports the player back to a dingy arcade in 90's. 

One man's heaven is another man's hell. I'm not sure how you've deduced the combat mechanics were 'pointless', but I'd argue that if you loved one, you'd have hated the other.

[lolwut666]

Y'know, if you're dying too often with the Hammerhead, just lower the difficulty.

The higher difficulties aren't meant to be beaten by just anyone. You need to have a minimum amount of skill.

The Hammerhead's controls were good, and that alone ranks it above the Mako to me.

Modifié par lolwut666, 01 mai 2011 - 04:28 .

[Ahglock]

I can;t conceive on anyone dieing with the hammerhead unless they were trying to do risky maneuvers. The majority of the combat could easily be solved by hiding behind cover and lobbing tracking missiles. Kind of like how with the mako you could solve most fights sniping at absurd range with the occasional dodge a missile tactic.

I thought the controls were fine with both of them, but the hammerhead being a fast hover vehicle had cooler moves.

[JaegerBane]

Ahglock wrote...

I can;t conceive on anyone dieing with the hammerhead unless they were trying to do risky maneuvers.
 

Actually standing within LoS of a Prime is virtually game over. I don't mind an onus on the player to avoid shots, but if the Hammerhead is risking being instakilled, I'd expect to be facing a massive battleship-grade Mass Accelerator cannon, not a dude with a rifle.

[Rurik_Niall]

Hunter-Wolf wrote...

OMG .. i still can't believe there are people still complaining about the Mako to this day this strongly.

A true testiment to how much that brick on wheels sucks.

[elitecom]

Rurik_Niall wrote...

Atmosphere is a poor substitute for gameplay however.

The gameplay was just as good, driving across barren worlds, engaging pirates/mercenaries, thresermaws or Cerberus, a true addition to a great Sci-Fi experience. The only thing was that the Mako itself was too sensitive at times, it needs to be equiped with better dampeners. Exploring alien worlds in Mass Effect(1) with the Mako added a lot to the game in terms of gameplay, atmosphere, and the general sci-fi experience. It would be great if this was to return in Mass Effect 3.

Captain_Obvious_au wrote...
One of the benefits of having the Mako as well was Sniper Rifles that actually acted like Sniper Rifles. I love going up onto a high hill in ME1, pulling out the Sniper Rifles, and zooming in for really long-range shots.

Ah yes, those times were great as well. I remember this particular mission in the Voyager cluster, where you must disarm a nuke only to find out that it's a trap. Then when you escaped the mine/facility, you arrived ontop of a mountain with the mercenaries down below. I always enjoyed equiping the sniper rifle and taking out the leader with one well placed shot.

[Ahglock]

JaegerBane wrote...

Ahglock wrote...

I can;t conceive on anyone dieing with the hammerhead unless they were trying to do risky maneuvers.
 

Actually standing within LoS of a Prime is virtually game over. I don't mind an onus on the player to avoid shots, but if the Hammerhead is risking being instakilled, I'd expect to be facing a massive battleship-grade Mass Accelerator cannon, not a dude with a rifle.

Sorry I wasn't clear.  Once you understand how that floating piece of paper works I don't see people dieing in it.  You hide behind cover or far enough away that targets don't shoot at you or can't hit you and you lob missiles until they are all dead.  If this was a complicated strategy I could see issues, but it is so obvious I doubt anyone playing the game didn't figure it out really quick.  If you want to ram them, strafe the targets out of cover or other risky tactics sure you can die.