175 réponses à ce sujet

[Ariella]

David Gaider wrote...

Eollodwyn wrote...
I want so badly to sit in on one of those brainstorming meetings. It would be magical.

It's also sometimes painful. We can argue just as much as folks on the forums, and have an equally diverse range of opinions on what's a good idea as you'll find here. What's more, we have more of a personal stake in it. Of course, we're also professionals... but we're also professional nerds. So it's not quite the same thing.

God do I know that one, but I'll say one thing, I'd love to go out drinking after work with you guys, which would probably be more fun than being in the creative meetings. I just have this vision of being at a table in a bar playing darts then somebody gets an idea and they all start furiously looking for napkins or anything else they can write on. Yeah, that would be my idead of definate FUN.

[tmp7704]

I resent the concept of game-producing magic hat... without a matching monocle. That's just uncouth.

[_Aine_]

Eollodwyn wrote...

I want so badly to sit in on one of those brainstorming meetings. It would be magical.

You and me both.    If you make it in, and if I am very, very quiet, can you just keep me in your pocket so I can eavesdrop?  *hopeful face*   

Interesting read though.  Funny thing about "fans".  It is the same thing that happens when you group almost any body of like-beings, suddenly they take on a blurred and moderately-more-annoying-than-they-are-alone persona.  Some people though, you really want to take on a blurred and less intelligible persona.  heh   I do think though, that if you are the sort that finds people's inner workings and psychological quirks interesting, for good and bad, the forums are the place to do some seriously condensed research.    And, I mean that as a compliment of sorts.   If you can hack the critical nature of empassioned fans, there are a ton of valuable insights here.  People are fascinating, frequently infuriating, sometimes obtusely pigheaded, but often fascinating. 

edit:  Luchadore costumes??  Pics or it didn't happen.

Modifié par shantisands, 27 avril 2011 - 05:43 .

[AkiKishi]

I watched the OVA of "No way my little sister is that cute" last night and it just brought it to mind when they were arguing about making an RPG game.

If I can find a short clip somewhere I'll post it in.

[Heather Cline]

Good link to that blog. It does make some hard statements about how the gaming industry works and to fans who think they know it all. Nothing works out how we want it to. It's why I try to keep an open mind to new games. Yes I've been upset at certain things like how ME2 for instance went more shooter and less RPG and how they removed same sex romances from the second game. But I haven't been such a hard head to not see that it is a good game in and of it's own right and that I did enjoy it for what it was.

Yes I've stated my piece about the game online here on the forums and left it at that. I do get emotionally involved in my games and yes I don't like it when a game is bugged or rushed. Still keeping calm and cool tends to win the battle. At least that is what I believe.

So to all who read that blog post look at it with an open mind.

[Cyberfrog81]

Hm, I'd have liked to see a meeting discussing the final boss battle in DA2. Without spoiling, I'd call it... insane. I like it personally, but it's a bit of a guilty pleasure. A brave idea for a battle, considering you no doubt knew some people would HATE IT SO MUCH to the point of never getting over it.

[JabbaDaHutt30]

Would like to know what exactly Laidlord and his cronies did that they listened to the fans, aside from making the combat more responsive. I recall CDProjekt changed Geralt's features on a whim because of a minor fan reaction.

What we get from Laidlord is an ominously numbered item pack.

... I believe that the Mass Effect team looks on how to improve their series though. Drew 'Dark Lord' Karpyshyn > David 'Vidya Game' Gaider.

[Statulos]

David Gaider wrote...

Rockpopple wrote...
I suppose that would come down to recognizing who's doing the posting, wouldn't it? I mean, if you didn't spend any time on the forums, I imagine it'd be impossible to tell who was reacting because of emotion and who was just trolling.

It's very easy for all the responses to kind of blur together-- that happens even to those of us who do spend time here. Heck, I'd say most of the regular posters do it from time to time as well. If you start imagining the fans as a collective unit without distinguishing between them it really seems like they're a group that has no idea what it wants and wouldn't like it even if you gave it to them.

It's not quite true, of course, but I certainly don't fault the majority of developers for not bothering. The idea that any developer would feel beholden to sift through masses of posts in search of that golden nugget of wisdom is probably something you're only going to find on the forums-- I think for most developers it's a little baffling and they'd really much rather just get on with their work. I mean, who wouldn't?

Of course there are people here who are interested, both official and unofficial (like John and myself). We do it because it would be worse, in our opinions, to develop in a vacuum. Not that developing in a committee would be any better, of course, and despite the fact that some fans seem to mistake the forums for one it still can be really useful to get the feedback here-- as blunt as it may occasionally be.

I couldn't resist on commenting about this post so just out of curiosity, Mr. Gaider; is the names of all of us, fans, Kevin?

I'll give a cookie to anyone catching the reference, not just to Mr. Gaider.

Modifié par Statulos, 27 avril 2011 - 06:27 .

[cindercatz]

Rockpopple wrote...

Honestly, I've always wanted creators to have a vision and stick to it. Listening to fan opinion is great and all, but like you said, there's just too much varying opinions to figure out "what the fans want."

I honestly think if any creator has fans, it because the fans took the good and bad of what was created in the first place, so instead of being moved this way or that by the fandom, creators should always stick to their vision.

People are just too hard to please either way. And they're generally afraid of change. I know a lot of people get their dander up when I say this, but it's true. When people have something they like, they generally don't want any changes to it, and you can't evolve without change. I have the same complaint about the way "the fandom dictates" in video games as they do in comic books. I'm actually a bit more militant about it in comic books, actually. =P

Ah well. All that being said, I'm glad you guys take the time to come around and check things out here. I hope whatever you get from it ultimately helps.

I look at it another way. Creators should never be ciphers; they should pursue their creative visions. They should, however, always be open to criticism, be ready to re-assess their work, take inspiration wherever they can, and be willing to recognize, take and use better ideas should they come along. That goes for everybody in every line of work, actually, including games and comics. That doesn't mean you just take orders from whoever's barkin' at 'cha, but be open to anything that you can use to improve, and never dismiss offhand or condescend.

separate..
I love creative collaboration, right up there with drawing on the page. I only worked at the physical level of boom and camera, some editing when I worked in tv years back (been injured the last five years), so I've never gotten to do it professionally, but I've directed a student video, planned some other things that there wasn't time to complete, and developed a few comic books up through conceptual, character design and some script work. It's addictive, in a good way. :-) Love it much. I hope someday before too dang long I'll be able to get back into creative work somewhere, or finally fully realize my own stuff, and get to that high professional level. I can't really see myself doing anything else long term. All to say, I empathise with those guys. :-)

I can be too long winded, so I'll stop now..

[JabbaDaHutt30]

Cyberfrog81 wrote...

Hm, I'd have liked to see a meeting discussing the final boss battle in DA2. Without spoiling, I'd call it... insane. I like it personally, but it's a bit of a guilty pleasure. A brave idea for a battle, considering you no doubt knew some people would HATE IT SO MUCH to the point of never getting over it.

Seriously? That was the low point of the game. I don't think DA 2 is 'an ambomination' or anything, even if I appear like a raving hater, but the final boss was poppycock. That's right, poppycock!

I half expected that... horror to use a Rasengan on me.

[Cyberfrog81]

Yes, really. The acting is brilliant and so is the cinematic design. I don't mind a little bit of crazy now and then.

Modifié par Cyberfrog81, 27 avril 2011 - 06:59 .

[Khayness]

Not Dragon Age II related. Please take this discussion to our Off-Topic forum. Thank you.

End of line.

[JabbaDaHutt30]

Khayness wrote...

Not Dragon Age II related. Please take this discussion to our Off-Topic forum. Thank you.

End of line.

Invalid. The people who pay my salary have posted in this thread.

Line goes on.

[Reinveil]

David Gaider wrote...

Of course there are people here who are interested, both official and unofficial (like John and myself). We do it because it would be worse, in our opinions, to develop in a vacuum. Not that developing in a committee would be any better, of course, and despite the fact that some fans seem to mistake the forums for one it still can be really useful to get the feedback here-- as blunt as it may occasionally be.

As someone that's been critical of DAII, I hope you understand that I'm grateful for this attitude.  As John pointed out, you're going to get trolls on any forum regardless of what's being discussed there, but I'm glad you guys bother to sift through the nonsense to consider legitimate issues people may have with the game.  The responses on either side of the argument have been passionate (to say the least), and I think this stems from a mutual desire to see you guys succeed.  I think people sometimes lose sight of this.  Bioware has been a favorite developer of mine for many years now, and one of only a handful that make games I genuinely get excited about playing prior to release.  You've also got a more consistent track record than most major devs for delivering award winning games, so unfortunately any missteps are going to be seen as a major disappointment (or CATASTROPHIC LETDOWN, depending on the poster ).  But I don't believe any reasonable member of the community here, no matter how critical, is hoping for failure.

So, in short: thanks for listening.  You certainly don't have to, but it speaks volumes that you do.

[Shamajotsi]

tmp7704 wrote...

I resent the concept of game-producing magic hat... without a matching monocle. That's just uncouth.

Bioware shouldn't be working on any monocles untill they fix the magic hat! Should be black!

Though I doubt we will ever have the good old hats they used to make ...

[Cutlass Jack]

Shamajotsi wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...

I resent the concept of game-producing magic hat... without a matching monocle. That's just uncouth.

Bioware shouldn't be working on any monocles untill they fix the magic hat! Should be black!

Though I doubt we will ever have the good old hats they used to make ...

Its shameful really. Once upon a time they put care into their hats. Sure you could only view them isometrically, but the way you wore them on your head really mattered! And when you pulled a Space Hamster out of them it was truly magical.

At the rate they are going now, soon we'll be lucky to get a magic visor. With DLC to make them Magic Beer holding hat.

[-Skorpious-]

David Gaider wrote...

Of course there are people here who are interested, both official and unofficial (like John and myself). We do it because it would be worse, in our opinions, to develop in a vacuum. Not that developing in a committee would be any better, of course, and despite the fact that some fans seem to mistake the forums for one it still can be really useful to get the feedback here-- as blunt as it may occasionally be.

Some of us (yes, this includes me) are extremely vocal with out complaints because we care about the work you do. To us, Bioware games are not just "oh look, a new GoW game, cool", but "OMG NEW BIOWARE GAME! (cue intense hyper-ventilating session). We want, no, expect more from you than any other developer because you guys are just that awesome.

So when you develop a game like DA2 which, while not necessarily a bad game, but as fundamentally flawed as it is, we go up in arms because we hold you to a much higher standard than we would other developers. For example, I have my fair share of issues with TES IV: Oblivion - do I go to their official board and "complain"? No. Why? I do not care for Bethseda the same way I do for you (Bioware). 

In short, we criticize harshly because we love you; not because we hate you or find delight  in your failures/shortcomings.

PS - Although I've been constantly referring to the fanbase as "we", I cannot truly speak for anyone besides myself. Your willingness to put up with, well, you know, on a daily basis is a trait I appreciate and respect about you and your company. 

[David Gaider]

-Skorpious- wrote...
In short, we criticize harshly because we love you; not because we hate you or find delight  in your failures/shortcomings.

PS - Although I've been constantly referring to the fanbase as "we", I cannot truly speak for anyone besides myself. Your willingness to put up with, well, you know, on a daily basis is a trait I appreciate and respect about you and your company. 

Well, your last point should be kept in mind-- because there very much have been people who (for example) have wished me death and/or failure, whether they believe I am responsible for everything they dislike or I simply make a convenient target. Is that supposed to be haha funny? Is a developer supposed to want to expose themselves to that kind of vitriol, and enjoy it? According to those people we should want it, like it, and take notes... at which point the only rational response is to go "oookaaay" and simply go back to work.

You can't speak for them. You don't know if they mean it any more than I do-- I just have to take it on faith that they do it because they like games. A lot. There are days, however, when I'd very much just rather not deal with it, as I'm certainly under no obligation to.

For those who are passionate out of caring, like you mention, it can be very worthwhile interaction. Hopefully for us both.

Modifié par David Gaider, 27 avril 2011 - 07:54 .

[DanteCousland]

well obviously wishing death and failure on you is completely wrong and what not for obvious reasons and I think alot of the people doing that are typical trolls. Then again I and lots of others have engaged in "trolling behaviour" against DA2. I mean I like that you come to the forums and engage with us, thankyou. But its the internet, you will get things like that. If you don't like it just leave or ignore it. I don't know maybe your not allowed to, just a thought.

Modifié par DanteCousland, 27 avril 2011 - 08:00 .

[David Gaider]

DanteCousland wrote...
But its the internet, you will get things like that. If you don't like it just leave or ignore it. I don't know maybe your not allowed to, just a thought.

Of course I can just not come here, as most developers do. The question, in the end, is whether you as the fan want us to.

Modifié par David Gaider, 27 avril 2011 - 08:09 .

[Rockpopple]

Obviously I don't speak for all the fans, but I think it's fair to say I probably speak for most of them when I say: Of coooooooooooooourse we'd like for you to come here. Even if it's just to shoot the breeze and just talk about the game - it's always a thrill to talk to the creative masterminds behind a beloved product/franchise.

In any case, I don't think "it's the internet" is an excuse for bad behaviour. People should know better - end of this.

If they act out badly, they're warned/banned/whatnot, but really you'll never completely get rid of the bad actors, right? Hopefully most people should know how to get their points across - passionate or no - without trolling or worse.

[_Aine_]

David Gaider wrote...

DanteCousland wrote...
But its the internet, you will get things like that. If you don't like it just leave or ignore it. I don't know maybe your not allowed to, just a thought.

Of course I can just not come here, as most developers do. The question, in the end, is whether you as the fan want us to.

Speaking for myself, I am glad there are people like you at Bioware who do come here. I find the reading and/or participating in the conversation (as well as the insight) very interesting and enjoyable.   It is the only thing that kept me on the forums originally, actually.  I remember thinking, " Wow, the developers actually show up amongst the fans!"  It seemed so genuine and rare.   I know full well that you don't *have* to be here and that it is in your free time.    I appreciate it, personally.  I do hope the ones that come around here do stay.  

[drvaughn1999]

I have been very vocal against DA2, I'm not here to post those complaints again.  I just to say that I appreciate David and John (I know you posted on other threads) for coming on here and talking to us.  I have enjoyed this discussion and I will remember that the next time I want to go off on these forums.   Again thank you for coming and discussing this with us .

[Teecat]

The Dragon Age and Mass Effect franchises are the only games that have ever made me so emotionally invested, they made my boyfriend and friends jealous.

...Erm, not to blaim Bioware for denting my social life or anything.... but a thank you to developers who care!