175 réponses à ce sujet

[Statulos]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

David Gaider wrote...
Ah, Paradox.

I mod for Victoria 2 (my own little do-something-not-RPG-related hobby) so I know whereof you speak.

It's hard to describe my reaction to reading this, but I imagine it's similar to your typical fangirl squee.

I'm not a girl.  I don't squee.  But there you have it.

Now I want to know which mod, because... Victoria 2 kind of begs for a few of them.

If he colaborates with the Supreme Hierophant OHGamer, Mr. Gaider has just got the archivement of Bismarkian Champion.

OK, but to keep things on topic:

David Gaider wrote...
Speaking personally, I try not to do the
exact same thing every time out of the gate. I might return to
characters like HK47 or Shale in the future, it's hard to say. As long
as Mary and Luke and Sheryl are about, however, I'm certain there will
be no shortage of characters with snark.

I can relate to the "I don´t want to do an X 2.0" feeling. If everything I talked about in my research were the concept of war gods in the Indeuropean context I´d have left mythology long time ago.

However, even when I can see the paralells between Viconia and Morrigan, I think both deserve credit in themselves. I could see the author´s hand behind, but they way they work in their respective plots and the more uncompromising trait in Morrigan´s attitude was unexpected (I expected her to "tenderize", it didn´t happen, though) and very welcomed.

Shale and HK47 being snarky? Well, Varric is snarky, Zevran too; HK47 and Shale are blunt, brutal, ruthless and simply fun. Yes, like the kind of fun and grins you get when listening to Grindcore or Death Metal bands...

In a nutshell, I missed the terribly tragic and no happy end love story element in DA2. You did it twice, it worked amazingly well and I would love that mytheme refreshed and renewd at some point. Perhaps with a male character this time...

Modifié par Statulos, 28 avril 2011 - 12:14 .

[Ariella]

Teh Blasta wrote...

Ariella wrote...

Thing is there are some legitmate gripes about DA2, and a lot of technical stuff wouldn't have been taken care of if Bioware ignored the fan base. 

There is a diffrence between pointing out game bugs and ****ing on a daily basis for sixteen odd pages about how "BioWare has betrayed the fans for moronic reason X". Trying to excuse unfounded accusations with technical problems does not legitimize developers having to sit and listen to half the stupid threads on these forums.

Oh, I agree there have been some major unfounded accusation by people, and a heck of a lot of hyperbole thrown around. It has the unfortunate effect of drowning out the legitmate criticism, which Bioware's always seemed to have used to good effect, is all I was trying to say. I'm sure some poor person goes through all this stuff and sorts it out by feasability and the direction they want to take the series.

[Teh Blasta]

Ariella wrote...
snip

I can understand that there may be some actual ideas that are feasible but honestly I'd rather have a developer make a game based on pure whim than seek any kind of guidance from mob rule. Creativity is best left to the professionals and not those with the preset bias of what they want out of another person's idea. I think there are those who have some constructive and positively minded feelings on specific subjects but I'd rather have it that developers came out with their own solutions.

Modifié par Teh Blasta, 28 avril 2011 - 12:21 .

[Tommy6860]

Teh Blasta wrote...

Tommy6860 wrote...
Yet, since I am a "consumer", I don't think you should pretend to speak for me

I don't? Well I could, I do think highly of my own public speaking skills. So if you are in the market for someone to speak on behalf of yourself I would be willing to. Think about it and get back to me.

Aside from that, for those of you who are ever so enraged at BioWare for specifically Dragon Age II you should understand that not everyone agrees with you that Origins was better. Dispite fanboys being more vocal than other members of these forums it is clear that not everyone has a problem. But, don't let me stop you, carry on...

I'll leave it go after this, but: If you think posting banal platitudes as being meaningful, then have it, that isn't me. But my previous post to you stands, you don't speak for me, or get to tell me what is progression (in the context of the discussion). If you like the game, I won't belittle you for it, it is your preference by the way, despite that we are fanboys as your argument for the game. But the mere fact that you included "enraged' as some descritption of the general feeling for those not liking the game for their own reasons, speaks only as your own personal summary, not actually that you represent the voice for all. Ad hominem just doesn't cut it, really..

[SirGladiator]

I think the fans generally get things right overall, obviously there are plenty of fairly crazy-sounding folks around, and its best to tune them out, but to ignore the fans, whether as a game developer, a TV show producer, etc. just basicly guarantees you're going to do poorly. There has to be a way to tune out the noise and still get the message of the masses. I thought the masses here were being silly, totally overreacting, when they warned that the huge changes in DA2 wouldn't be for the best, I thought it'd still be a better game, and sell better, than DAO, even though the fans here, for a year or more, warned that the changes weren't going to be well received. It turns out if they'd listened to those fans the game would've probably sold twice as much as it did, and likely would've been an even better game. We know that DAO is a result of listening to the fans, and DA2 is a result of ignoring them to a certain degree, of course those are just two examples out of many, many games, but they do suggest that it's better to listen to the fans. There's always the crazy-negative and crazy-positive ones that you have to tune out, but the vast majority will always tell you when you're doing something right or doing something wrong. Hearing their voices and acting accordingly is much less painful than ignoring them then watching the poor results come in. Its a shame that so many overly negative folks are causing them to tune out the rest of the fans, because its in everybody's best interests for them to listen.

[erynnar]

David Gaider wrote...

Statulos wrote...
If there is something I appreciate from you and Mr. Epler is the fact that you stand up and talk here. One of my fave developers, Paradox, does this too and I really, really appreciate the attitude.

Ah, Paradox.

I mod for Victoria 2 (my own little do-something-not-RPG-related hobby) so I know whereof you speak.

Yes, I do not agree with many of the decissions taken in DA2 in script terms but that´s not because you turned into an evil monster who eats babies for breakfast overnight and suddenly made it al wrong.

But... I like babies.

Fried.

I actually miss that "Gaideresque" component full of cynicism (HK47, Shale) or tragic romance (Morrigan, Viconia) in this new Dragon Age game.

Speaking personally, I try not to do the exact same thing every time out of the gate. I might return to characters like HK47 or Shale in the future, it's hard to say. As long as Mary and Luke and Sheryl are about, however, I'm certain there will be no shortage of characters with snark.

To each his own: I think you guys could have done quite much better on DA2. The fact that you´re here and listen to us speaks loud about personal dignity and professionalism irregarless of the game you worked in.

Here's to endeavouring to doing better, then.

Do you like bronzing the baby instead of the babyshoes?  Oh wait, that would make them hard to eat...never mind.

May I throw a fangirl squee to you? I have to order back up copies of your books because the others have succumbed to too much affection (reading you dirty birds...geeze with this crowd:lol:)  Okay brown nosing quota hit for the day.

Ugh I am sorry Mr. Gaider, you have to put up with the "please die" crap.  I hate that.

[neppakyo]

erynnar wrote...
Do you like bronzing the baby instead of the babyshoes?  Oh wait, that would make them hard to eat...never mind.

May I throw a fangirl squee to you? I have to order back up copies of your books because the others have succumbed to too much affection (reading you dirty birds...geeze with this crowd:lol:)  Okay brown nosing quota hit for the day.

Ugh I am sorry Mr. Gaider, you have to put up with the "please die" crap.  I hate that.

I'm sorry, you hit your squee and brown nosing quota for the month. To continue you will have to pay extra 

Oh, here's a tissue, you got something on your nose 

Hmm, Gaider books available in the bookstore? May gander off to coles sometime and check out the fantasy/sci fi section. I'm usually lured into buying any L.E Modesitt Jr books I haven't read.

[erynnar]

neppakyo wrote...

erynnar wrote...
Do you like bronzing the baby instead of the babyshoes?  Oh wait, that would make them hard to eat...never mind.

May I throw a fangirl squee to you? I have to order back up copies of your books because the others have succumbed to too much affection (reading you dirty birds...geeze with this crowd:lol:)  Okay brown nosing quota hit for the day.

Ugh I am sorry Mr. Gaider, you have to put up with the "please die" crap.  I hate that.

I'm sorry, you hit your squee and brown nosing quota for the month. To continue you will have to pay extra 

Oh, here's a tissue, you got something on your nose 

Hmm, Gaider books available in the bookstore? May gander off to coles sometime and check out the fantasy/sci fi section. I'm usually lured into buying any L.E Modesitt Jr books I haven't read.

Aw, thanks for the hanky!   I have to pay more? Shoot!

Oh L.E. Modesitt Jr! Someone at work mentioned that author. Any recs?

[AngryFrozenWater]

I respect people like JohnEpler who are able to see either side in a discussion and steps in no matter who is going too far. And that includes the extreme BW defenders. It looks like he's still able to separate the passionate fans from trolls. Somehow he's also able to keep his sanity. It's a rare gift. BTW... Did I mention that I actually hate BW? Ghehe.

About the blog... The comments of the author seem just as interesting as the blog itself. Especially the one about the fiscal responsibility.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 28 avril 2011 - 02:42 .

[neppakyo]

erynnar wrote...
Aw, thanks for the hanky!   I have to pay more? Shoot!

Oh L.E. Modesitt Jr! Someone at work mentioned that author. Any recs?

You're welcome!

For single novels I reccomend The Parafaith war VERY highly and The Octagonal Raven.

The first book deals with technology, ecology and religion. The second novel deals with genetic modification and nanotech. All Modesitt books deals with morals in different ways, so I urge you to get those books if you can

For series, The Magic of Recluce. Hard to explain, you should give wiki a go.

[Rann]

Teh Blasta wrote...

The thing that caught my eye was:

You can’t please all the fans all the time

This is something that makes me question why exactly you would want to try and please "all" the fans. The point of media is mass appeal and not catering to a specific group. There is no single existing thing in any BioWare game that everyone agrees is for the better. By my logic it is impossible to please the majority let alone everyone. Someone is going to have a problem with at least something in ME3 or DA3 and they are going to follow up by whining their life away on these forums. If I were to suggest something to BioWare I would suggest developing games however they want to do it and not how mob rule wants it.

If only it were that easy -- at the end of the day, there's that mean old bottom line.  (I'm not trying to be rude with respect to your comment -- it's a comforting comment -- but it just doesn't work that way.)

Just to set up my bona fides here:  I'm a dev manager on Visual Studio -- those of you who are programmers will know what that is -- and have (for example) been the dev manager for Visual Basic, for our internal engineering systems team, and have generally had my fingers deep into our product in one way or the other, including shipping.  Millions of people buy this product.  As part of my job, I interact with customers a lot for feedback (customer love), and with upper management for direction (customer revenue).  And even though we don't do games (we write the code that lets other people write games, among other things), the blogpost that the OP pointed us at is right on target. 

We make a lot of choices throughout the product cycle, trying to find that centerpoint between what we think is cool, what customers think is cool, and what will pay the bills.  (Yes, employees do cost roughly double their salary -- no lie -- and we need to also generate enough profit for the company to pay the bills as well as to expand, so we can do more cool things, etc.)  Over the years, I have had several features shot down that were cool, but were clearly not going to drive revenue, and that's not a fun thing to experience.  I've also been frequently directed by managers, for reasons that made good business sense, to push feature work in different areas higher than other areas.  No problem; that's what managers are for.  Some of our customers have time constraints on upgrading, and that creates another dynamic to watch.  And so on...

At the end of the product cycle, we release a product with a lot of blood, sweat, and tears in it.  We then scour the forums, looking to see how we did, collecting all of the feedback, seeing what we need to fix.  We know that we can't please everyone, and yet, everytime, those first "hate" posts are just a punch in the guts.  "Too slow on my machine, didn't you guys bother to test it?" "I wanted feature X, why isn't feature X in, you jerks? Guess you don't care about developers anymore," ad nauseam.  It just kills you, but you have to keep reading.  You need the data.  You do get desensitized a bit, but it takes time.

However, I *love* posts like "Hey guys, I really don't like the way you implemented this feature -- I see a big slowdown in finding what I need using it.  Here's my work pattern ...(etc)...  have you guys considered implementing it in this way to support guys like me?"  In fact, I sometimes like them even more than "Great job!" posts, though that sounds weird.  That first sort of post tells me exactly what's wrong, I have the data to understand why it's wrong, and my team can start planning on how to fix it in the next service pack or version.

By and large, everyone who writes software, or manages software, produces, or sells software is an intelligent and moral person who does what they do (as opposed to doing another job) because they enjoy it and want to make it as cool as possible, given the proper time and resources.  Heck, I've said more than once that it's just crazy that I get paid so much for doing something that I would otherwise do as a hobby anyway.

I admit that I don't care as much for DA2 as DA:O, and I've tried (I hope) to provide constuctive feedback along those lines in these forums without crossing the line.  But, man, every time I see a dev or a producer or whatever get pilloried and covered with bile because "they don't care" or "it's all about money" or "you guys clearly don't take pride in your work.," it just makes my blood boil.  It's not fun, it's not fair, and it's not helpful.

[Edit: typos]

Modifié par Rann, 28 avril 2011 - 02:57 .

[zeejay21]

There’s a saying. I’m not sure who said it first, but I first heard it while at BioWare. It goes, “If we could give people a magic hat that would create for them the exact RPG experience they’d always dreamed of, they’d complain about the color of the hat.”

Henry Ford similarly said, "If I'd asked my customers what they wanted, they'd have said a faster horse."

Before that, Sir Isaac Newton similarly said, "I can count the heavenly bodies but not the madness of men."

In short, people are unpredictable and never feel satisfied. Market observation is key if products need to sell well.

Modifié par zeejay21, 28 avril 2011 - 02:55 .

[WhiteKnyght]

David Gaider wrote...


Speaking personally, I try not to do the exact same thing every time out of the gate. I might return to characters like HK47 or Shale in the future, it's hard to say. As long as Mary and Luke and Sheryl are about, however, I'm certain there will be no shortage of characters with snark.

There technically isn't anything wrong with character archetypes

[AngryFrozenWater]

My simplified take on flame wars: Without the extreme BW defenders there wouldn't be as many. And not only do the extreme critics start them. The defenders seem perfectly able to start one on there own.

[AngryFrozenWater]

neppakyo wrote...

JohnEpler wrote...

Now that we've gone completely off-topic (aided and abetted by myself, to be fair), let's try and claw our way at least somewhat back on-topic.

uhh, what was the topic again? I'm still trying to imagine the fine work allistarlover's plastic surgeon did..

Oh, yeah, blog, making games..

Uhh, yeah it would be kinda neat to sneak into a brainstorming session on a new game. BW should have a contest, win a trip to see how a game is made or soemthing

There are companies that allow gamers/users to do a bit of that. One from the US is Stardock. Loyal customers are invited to test alpha versions and give their input on it. I was a crtitic there as much as I am here, and even I got that opportunity. A very cool company. Depending on the product they usually allow any customer to test their beta versions. Another cool company is Egosoft (from Germany). There too any customer can test their beta software and provide feedback like feature requests. They have special forums for that and very strict rules to smooth the process. I loved doing that. They also allow users to see their alpha software and give input on it. They require you to sign an NDA for that. Of course they reserve the right to reject requests like that. Like Stardock some of the creative community members (modders/skinners/coders) end up on their payroll.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 28 avril 2011 - 03:55 .

[Ariella]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

neppakyo wrote...

JohnEpler wrote...

Now that we've gone completely off-topic (aided and abetted by myself, to be fair), let's try and claw our way at least somewhat back on-topic.

uhh, what was the topic again? I'm still trying to imagine the fine work allistarlover's plastic surgeon did..

Oh, yeah, blog, making games..

Uhh, yeah it would be kinda neat to sneak into a brainstorming session on a new game. BW should have a contest, win a trip to see how a game is made or soemthing

There are companies that allow gamers to do a bit of that. One from the US is Stardock. Loyal customers are invited to test alpha versions and give their input on it. I was a crtitic there as much as I am here, and even I got that opportunity. A very cool company. Depending on the product they usually allow any customer to test their beta versions. Another cool company is Egosoft (from Germany). There too any customer can test their beta software and provide feedback like feature requests. They have special forums for that and very strict rules to smooth the process. I loved doing that. They also allow users to see their alpha software and give input on it. They require you to sign an NDA for that. Of course they reserve the right to reject requests like that. Like Stardock some of the creative community members (modders/skinners/coders) end up on their payroll.

Actually a lot of Bioware' s teams got their start in the NWN community. Hell I remember them actively recruiting from that community for AGES.

Stardock can pull that kind of thing because they're self publishing, but that has a downside in that if a product the company puts a lot of revenue into bombs, serious consequences like layoffs insue.

Of course, now that Bioware is under the EA corporate umbrella that's not as big a worry for the entire company, but there's a lot more red tape between the fans and the development process. We're lucky in a way, that Bioware does continune to try to foster a community around their games that's pretty tight and includes fans and devs alike.

[AngryFrozenWater]

Ariella wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

neppakyo wrote...

JohnEpler wrote...

Now that we've gone completely off-topic (aided and abetted by myself, to be fair), let's try and claw our way at least somewhat back on-topic.

uhh, what was the topic again? I'm still trying to imagine the fine work allistarlover's plastic surgeon did..

Oh, yeah, blog, making games..

Uhh, yeah it would be kinda neat to sneak into a brainstorming session on a new game. BW should have a contest, win a trip to see how a game is made or soemthing

There are companies that allow gamers to do a bit of that. One from the US is Stardock. Loyal customers are invited to test alpha versions and give their input on it. I was a crtitic there as much as I am here, and even I got that opportunity. A very cool company. Depending on the product they usually allow any customer to test their beta versions. Another cool company is Egosoft (from Germany). There too any customer can test their beta software and provide feedback like feature requests. They have special forums for that and very strict rules to smooth the process. I loved doing that. They also allow users to see their alpha software and give input on it. They require you to sign an NDA for that. Of course they reserve the right to reject requests like that. Like Stardock some of the creative community members (modders/skinners/coders) end up on their payroll.

Actually a lot of Bioware' s teams got their start in the NWN community. Hell I remember them actively recruiting from that community for AGES.

Stardock can pull that kind of thing because they're self publishing, but that has a downside in that if a product the company puts a lot of revenue into bombs, serious consequences like layoffs insue.

Of course, now that Bioware is under the EA corporate umbrella that's not as big a worry for the entire company, but there's a lot more red tape between the fans and the development process. We're lucky in a way, that Bioware does continune to try to foster a community around their games that's pretty tight and includes fans and devs alike.

A bit off-topic and I'll drop the subject after that... Stardock can pull it off because Brad Wardell wants it and strongly believes in it. His company is build around it. I am certain that he is the pioneer of what we call now community building which he started in the 90s using things like IRC and UseNet. Today he would probably frown upon a site like this, because it is too limited and clumsy. Everything you see on this site (from blogs to projects) were in one way or another integrated with a consistent user friendly interface in his websites for years. Products like Steam got their inspiration from Stardock (and not the other way around). The company got something like that nearly a decade ago to distribute their own software. They started helping independent studios so they included third party software as well. It used to have IRC chat to allow user feedback. Steam ended up being more popular than what is now called Impulse. That's a bit ironic. The law of the handicap of a head start is clearly at work here.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 28 avril 2011 - 04:45 .

[Statulos]

Paradox (the company mentioned by both Mr. Gaider and myself) is quite famous for their open doors policy.

I have beta tested for them, I have given some advice about names and designs for faction anagrams, I personaly know a couple guys who have helped creating flags for Victoria 2 (a grand strategy title that covers the period from 1836 to 1936), and we users even voted for the scenarios we wanted to be included in a Hearts of Iron III (WWII grand strategy).

The massive modding community definetly helps, and just like here, there are some very, very talented modders.

I think that kind of interaction has helped Paradox becoming one of the best companies for strategy games capable of delivering what we users want to play.

However, I understand that Paradox and Bioware have a very serious difference and it´s not only genre, but budget: the cost of Dragon Age 2 is very probably several times bigger; in fact I´m sure that you can release a couple Paradox games just with the budget Bioware alocates to voice acting.

However, that amount of interaction led to one of the best moments I have ever seen: Fred, the CEO from Paradox promised to shave his head if Victoria 2 was profitable (the first Victoria was famous for being a "failed" project; it was us players, the ones who kept pushing for a renewed game). Well, we saw the very nice pics of a hairless Fred a couple months before release and just from preorders.

[Ariella]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Ariella wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

neppakyo wrote...
Change Profile Photo

JohnEpler wrote...

Now that we've gone completely off-topic (aided and abetted by myself, to be fair), let's try and claw our way at least somewhat back on-topic.

uhh, what was the topic again? I'm still trying to imagine the fine work allistarlover's plastic surgeon did..

Oh, yeah, blog, making games..

Uhh, yeah it would be kinda neat to sneak into a brainstorming session on a new game. BW should have a contest, win a trip to see how a game is made or soemthing

There are companies that allow gamers to do a bit of that. One from the US is Stardock. Loyal customers are invited to test alpha versions and give their input on it. I was a crtitic there as much as I am here, and even I got that opportunity. A very cool company. Depending on the product they usually allow any customer to test their beta versions. Another cool company is Egosoft (from Germany). There too any customer can test their beta software and provide feedback like feature requests. They have special forums for that and very strict rules to smooth the process. I loved doing that. They also allow users to see their alpha software and give input on it. They require you to sign an NDA for that. Of course they reserve the right to reject requests like that. Like Stardock some of the creative community members (modders/skinners/coders) end up on their payroll.

Actually a lot of Bioware' s teams got their start in the NWN community. Hell I remember them actively recruiting from that community for AGES.

Stardock can pull that kind of thing because they're self publishing, but that has a downside in that if a product the company puts a lot of revenue into bombs, serious consequences like layoffs ensue.

Of course, now that Bioware is under the EA corporate umbrella that's not as big a worry for the entire company, but there's a lot more red tape between the fans and the development process. We're lucky in a way, that Bioware does continune to try to foster a community around their games that's pretty tight and includes fans and devs alike.

A bit off-topic and I'll drop the subject after that... Stardock can pull it off because Brad Wardell wants it and strongly believes in it. His company is build around it.

Thing is take a look at the layoffs that Stardock had to go with because of the unexpectedly poor release of Elemental: War of Magic. That's the point I was making. Bioware, when it was an independant developer, had trouble finding a publisher for Dragon Age, no one was willing to take a chance on it, it seems. This a hard time to be a small self publisher or an independant developer.

[AngryFrozenWater]

Ghehe. I love companies like that, Statulos. Mount & Blade has a cool history as well. It was started by a guy who was initially backed up by his wife. Every third party contribution to the game was made for free (from artwork to music) with the promise that they would be paid when the game got profitable. The beta testers were promised a free copy of the game upon release. You might not like that game, but it became profitable. He now has a professional studio. He still incorporates user feedback from beta testers in the games they create. The products are becoming more mature. I hope that his company strikes gold one of these days.

[AngryFrozenWater]

Ariella wrote...

Thing is take a look at the layoffs that Stardock had to go with because of the unexpectedly poor release of Elemental: War of Magic. That's the point I was making. Bioware, when it was an independant developer, had trouble finding a publisher for Dragon Age, no one was willing to take a chance on it, it seems. This a hard time to be a small self publisher or an independant developer.

That's true. Competition is hard. That's why I believe that gamers should also support independent or smaller studios and not just the big titles. I've bought Amnesia: The Dark Descent because niche games like that push the limits of gameplay that the big studios are afraid to try. I can't wait what they dream up next. If only I could get rid of my nightmares after I've bought that game...

To go back to DA2... I am not sure if gamers always provide the best feedback. To fish for the right ingredients presented on this forum looks like a science on its own. But also I have my doubts with its alternatives when I see that larger companies invests too much time and resources in "professional" methods like telemetry and marketing research. What that does is exclude the main factor what makes games great: Fun. I think that these modern methods turn great franchises into a grey pulp that makes all titles look the same. If RPGs are a niche market then don't assume that mixing them with action games suddenly creates better games. BW often says that its fans are afraid of change. I think (like the author of the blog suggets) that their "fiscal responsibility" holds back what they like to do. I think that it drives the fear to change and innovate the genre. And yes, I know that they have a lot of mouths to feed. But if that causes more games like DA2 then I'll pass.

So, whatever you do BW... Please keep visiting the forums. In return I'll promise to switch off the telemetry option in your games and avoid hitting the awesome button.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 28 avril 2011 - 06:17 .

[Ariella]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Ariella wrote...

Thing is take a look at the layoffs that Stardock had to go with because of the unexpectedly poor release of Elemental: War of Magic. That's the point I was making. Bioware, when it was an independant developer, had trouble finding a publisher for Dragon Age, no one was willing to take a chance on it, it seems. This a hard time to be a small self publisher or an independant developer.

That's true. Competition is hard. That's why I believe that gamers should also support independent or smaller studios and not just the big titles. I've bought Amnesia: A Dark Descent because niche games like that push the limits of gameplay that the big studios are afraid to try. I can't wait what they dream up next. If only I could get rid of my nightmares after I've bought that game...

To go back to DA2... I am not sure if gamers always provide the best feedback. To fish for the right ingredients presented on this forum looks like a science on its own. But also I have my doubts with its alternatives when I see that larger companies invests too much time and resources in "professional" methods like telemetry and marketing research. What that does is exclude the main factor what makes games great: Fun. I think that these modern methods turn great franchises into a grey pulp that makes all titles look the same. If RPGs are a niche market then don't assume that mixing them with action games suddenly creates better games. BW often says that its fans are afraid of change. I think (like the author of the blog suggets) that their "fiscal responsibility" holds back what they like to do. I think that it drives the fear to change and innovate the genre. And yes, I know that they have a lot of mouths to feed. But if that causes more games like DA2 then I'll pass.

So, whatever you do BW... Please keep visiting the forums. In return I'll promise to switch off the telemetry option in your games and avoid hitting the awesome button.

Humans don't always prove the best feedback, those emotional attachments and all . Seriously, you're right, it's finding the right balance, which is a theme I've been repeating on these forums for what feels like an age. I don't mind the overlap between action games and RPGs all that much, if I had I would have missed Larian's Divinity 2, which while having action elements (lot of puzzels that require jumping thus twitch skills that are not to be used with a touch pad) is a fun game and an interesting world and is classified an RPG.

The basic problem I believe the franchise suffers from is that Bioware poured all this creative energy into creating Thedas, but by the time DAO could get published the mechanics were dated. Now they've tried to course correct for all the criticism they got from that and ticked off a whole new group. What's needed is a balance in those mechanics where they don't intrude on the story too much, but at the same time can be meaty enough to satisfy the people who like strategic and tactical play and working with different builds etc.

I also think the risk they took did pay off in that they were able to move Thedas from status quo, which was pretty much where we ended DAO:  everything went back to the way it was for most of the world, and the Blight was a minor inconvenence at best. That's not true anymore, and the story, no matter which side one picked, is out there and it's changed Thedas' political and social equation forever and no one on that continent is immune, except maybe the Qunari for now... It's put them in a place to move forward storytelling wise without feeling like they need to produce a "save the world" every episode of Dragon Age.

Now if they could make the end of the world a B plot in the next game, I'll be really impressed.

[JamesMoriarty123]

Saying that you will get vitriol and negative posts about ANYTHING is true to a degree but I think due ot the sheer amount of displeasure expressed by your FANS over this game, that's a clear indication that you guys at Bioware got this one waaaayyy wrong.

I have an endless amount of time for Bioware, and it won't stop me buying your next games (although I will say they will no longer be Day One purchases, I'll wait and read the criticisms first, which kinda bums be out as I'm going to have to wait for ME3 as my trust has defo been shaken thanks to DA2) or make me go on a rant here, but you cannot ignore what's going on here.

4.3 Metacritic user score, many many threads detailing/raging about things that make the game severely unenjoyable, uncompleteable quests, the state the game was actually released in on PC forcing PC Gamers to mess around with beta drivers and modded inf files just to get above 10FPS, massively overused textures and area designs, 4 places to actually visit during the WHOLE game, the architecture doesn't even change throughout the timeline, I thought you would at least see Kirkwall evolve, but no, over 10 years EVERYTHING stays EXACTLY the same, lol. Talk about bad choice.

This is what a poor choice of Project Lead and a 1 year development cycle does to what was a promising start to a great franchise. How you can call it a direct sequel is a bit beyond me, given that Origins was widely touted as the "spititual successor" to Baldur's Gate (which is what sold me on the franchise). Also, the storyline in DA2 was pretty weak in comparison, it definitely didn't have an "epic" feel to it, only made worse by the fact that your decisions don't actually have any weight, for those who have finished the game, they will know what I'm talking about.

Anyway, this thing's kinda gone off the rails, let's hope Bioware actually take notice of the feedback on here and use it constructively going forward. DA2 is NOT something I or many other gamers would like to see repeated.

Modifié par JamesMoriarty123, 28 avril 2011 - 07:51 .

[Darth Wraith]

JamesMoriarty123 wrote...


Also, the storyline in DA2 was pretty weak in comparison, it definitely didn't have an "epic" feel to it, only made worse by the fact that your decisions don't actually have any weight, for those who have finished the game, they will know what I'm talking about.

Actually this was one of the things I liked the most about the game. I am so sick of "save the world"-plotlines. I'm not saying that the story in DA2 didn't have some flaws - for one, it lacked some forward momentum in acts 2 and 3. But on the whole I liked how it wasn't about this overwhelming threat that only you could prevent. One of my favourite game experiences in recent years was Mask of the Betrayer, and that was because it was an intensely personal quest. Not to mention what I consider the greatest game ever written, Planescape: Torment, which was all about one man's journey to (literally) discover who he was.

To reiterate, I don't think DA2 had a perfect story in any way, but it was very refreshing to see a AAA-title try something other than "save the world from [insert title of great evil here]".

[Jon Vael]

While I agree that you cannot please all your fans, the fatal flaws of DA2 were not that they didn't please their fans. Rather, they attempted to cater a game towards a market that DOES NOT make up their fan base. Along side that they had a very narrow time frame. With that said, it does not excuse the level of mediocrity that was produced.

This wasn't a case of, "We can only afford a year of production." Rather, "Let's see how fast we can make a sequel and milk the success of the first installment." The results? A shallow experience, with improved mechanics, and a decimated environment and questing system that all attempt to tie together a half-assed plot which had the potential to be epic. - I am still livid at how bad the game was. Which only goes to show how awesome I [and others] were expecting it to be.