175 réponses à ce sujet

[JamesMoriarty123]

Darth Wraith wrote...

JamesMoriarty123 wrote...


Also, the storyline in DA2 was pretty weak in comparison, it definitely didn't have an "epic" feel to it, only made worse by the fact that your decisions don't actually have any weight, for those who have finished the game, they will know what I'm talking about.

Actually this was one of the things I liked the most about the game. I am so sick of "save the world"-plotlines. I'm not saying that the story in DA2 didn't have some flaws - for one, it lacked some forward momentum in acts 2 and 3. But on the whole I liked how it wasn't about this overwhelming threat that only you could prevent. One of my favourite game experiences in recent years was Mask of the Betrayer, and that was because it was an intensely personal quest. Not to mention what I consider the greatest game ever written, Planescape: Torment, which was all about one man's journey to (literally) discover who he was.

To reiterate, I don't think DA2 had a perfect story in any way, but it was very refreshing to see a AAA-title try something other than "save the world from [insert title of great evil here]".

I see where you're coming from, I too regard Planescape: Torment as the best cRPG ever written. I suppose it was how the storyline was handled more than it's actual premise that weakened it. I mean sure, I did like the idea that you're kinda "one man and his family on the run" type thing, but the fact that you were supposedly drawn into this "epic struggle" despite the fact that you see one important Mage character during the entire storyline and that every other quest is just "ooohh Blood Magic" or "OMG! Blood Magic!", I mean, it was sooooo overused, I actually found myself cringing.

Modifié par JamesMoriarty123, 28 avril 2011 - 07:57 .

[bri193]

Jon Vael wrote...
While I agree that you cannot please all your fans, the fatal flaws of DA2 were not that they didn't please their fans. Rather, they attempted to cater a game towards a market that DOES NOT make up their fan base. Along side that they had a very narrow time frame. With that said, it does not excuse the level of mediocrity that was produced.

This wasn't a case of, "We can only afford a year of production." Rather, "Let's see how fast we can make a sequel and milk the success of the first installment." The results? A shallow experience, with improved mechanics, and a decimated environment and questing system that all attempt to tie together a half-assed plot which had the potential to be epic. - I am still livid at how bad the game was. Which only goes to show how awesome I [and others] were expecting it to be.

This^!!
Well said!

[JamesMoriarty123]

bri193 wrote...

Jon Vael wrote...
While I agree that you cannot please all your fans, the fatal flaws of DA2 were not that they didn't please their fans. Rather, they attempted to cater a game towards a market that DOES NOT make up their fan base. Along side that they had a very narrow time frame. With that said, it does not excuse the level of mediocrity that was produced.

This wasn't a case of, "We can only afford a year of production." Rather, "Let's see how fast we can make a sequel and milk the success of the first installment." The results? A shallow experience, with improved mechanics, and a decimated environment and questing system that all attempt to tie together a half-assed plot which had the potential to be epic. - I am still livid at how bad the game was. Which only goes to show how awesome I [and others] were expecting it to be.

This^!!
Well said!

+1 (along with my inital post in this thread I think it quite handily sums up the whole deal with DA2).

Modifié par JamesMoriarty123, 28 avril 2011 - 08:39 .

[Darth Wraith]

JamesMoriarty123 wrote...

bri193 wrote...

Jon Vael wrote...
While I agree that you cannot please all your fans, the fatal flaws of DA2 were not that they didn't please their fans. Rather, they attempted to cater a game towards a market that DOES NOT make up their fan base. Along side that they had a very narrow time frame. With that said, it does not excuse the level of mediocrity that was produced.

This wasn't a case of, "We can only afford a year of production." Rather, "Let's see how fast we can make a sequel and milk the success of the first installment." The results? A shallow experience, with improved mechanics, and a decimated environment and questing system that all attempt to tie together a half-assed plot which had the potential to be epic. - I am still livid at how bad the game was. Which only goes to show how awesome I [and others] were expecting it to be.

This^!!
Well said!

+1 (along with my inital post in this thread I think it quite handily sums up the whole deal with DA2).

The transcript of the meeting when this was decided can be found here: social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/315/index/7235429

[AngryFrozenWater]

Ariella wrote...

Humans don't always prove the best feedback, those emotional attachments and all . Seriously, you're right, it's finding the right balance, which is a theme I've been repeating on these forums for what feels like an age. I don't mind the overlap between action games and RPGs all that much, if I had I would have missed Larian's Divinity 2, which while having action elements (lot of puzzels that require jumping thus twitch skills that are not to be used with a touch pad) is a fun game and an interesting world and is classified an RPG.

The basic problem I believe the franchise suffers from is that Bioware poured all this creative energy into creating Thedas, but by the time DAO could get published the mechanics were dated. Now they've tried to course correct for all the criticism they got from that and ticked off a whole new group. What's needed is a balance in those mechanics where they don't intrude on the story too much, but at the same time can be meaty enough to satisfy the people who like strategic and tactical play and working with different builds etc.

I also think the risk they took did pay off in that they were able to move Thedas from status quo, which was pretty much where we ended DAO:  everything went back to the way it was for most of the world, and the Blight was a minor inconvenence at best. That's not true anymore, and the story, no matter which side one picked, is out there and it's changed Thedas' political and social equation forever and no one on that continent is immune, except maybe the Qunari for now... It's put them in a place to move forward storytelling wise without feeling like they need to produce a "save the world" every episode of Dragon Age.

Now if they could make the end of the world a B plot in the next game, I'll be really impressed.

I've always wanted to play Divinity 2, but alas their DRM is not a bridge I am willing to take. Looks like a good game indeed, though.

The problem I see with mixing styles is that such games never become excellent in whatever style they mix it with. It's easy to see why. They have budget X at the start of the project and that new element eats part of the pie. It takes away resources from their core element. It could work if that core element was solid enough that it didn't require much additional development. And DA:O required improvement and bug fixing. It becomes harder when the budget and/or development time shrinks. In the case of DA2, according to some critics, one of those or a combination caused the state the game is now in. It looks plausible to me.

Then there is the problem of effect. Does the mix work? Which audience do you attract with it? I have seen threads in which people want less dialog, get rid of loot, customization and the inventory. Whenever I see such a thread then I hope the power grid of the marketing department fails. They might think it is a good idea.

If it is supposed to be a problem then don't cut it from the game, but make it worthwhile instead. I am dreaming up some ideas on the spot here, so am not sure if they are OK, but it should paint a picture for alternatives:

Have armor stats that don't have a 0.1% change of what kind of silly stat, make them have significant impact like 10% more physical damage reduction for low tier gear up to 50% for high end stuff. Now we are talking. Ghehe. With stats like that, you will want to find that cool loot and upgrade when you'll find it. Make armor as loot rare and worth a fortune. Balance the game around it. Give it a great backstory quest line and an epic fight to get it. That looks better than fighting the same old waves of enemies and get the Boots of the Campion which are very hard to miss on a quest which you had to do anyway. The dull codex entry for that armor piece could now show a snap shot from the fight you had been trough to get it.

I have no idea what the current companion armor exactly does and don't notice any significant difference when I upgraded them. Give them significant and noticeable stats too. Change the appearance of the armor after each upgrade, instead of a silly rectangle which I found by accident.

Tattoos? Give them meaning by adding magical properties to them. Remove them from the character creator. Add a tattoo shop at some dangerous remote location and a quest to save the shop owner. Getting a tattoo will get you an injury that lasts a week, but your tattoo will have a 75% resistance to knock back. And he sells other types too. Even for your companions.

Large probabilities with significant and noticeable impact on the stuff they work on. Hide the numbers if you must, but make them available to check in-game when we are curious.

In the examples above BW can add their great story telling and use it to tell the lore of the period.

Well... You get the idea. Improving an RPG doesn't mean you have to mix other genres. Bring back the fun.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 28 avril 2011 - 09:42 .

[sssfreak]

Funnily enough what was described in that blog is exactly what I think happened to DA2. It seems like Bioware tried to cater to everybody's wants and needs. So instead of a game that is focused and great with the core RPG prinicples of Bioware games of the past, it became a bland mess. Not a bad game just mediocre for Bioware standards.

Jack of all Trades, Master of None rings a bell.

Bioware, please, forget the "Call of Duty crowd". Go back to what makes RPG's great. Make a game YOU are proud and passionate about. Not what EA or the general masses supposedly want

[AkiKishi]

You can't create a market with something as poor as DA2. That's even if you disregard that there is no demand for such a game anyway from people who play CoD, AC etc.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 28 avril 2011 - 12:48 .

[Kidd]

David Gaider wrote...

Eollodwyn wrote...
I want so badly to sit in on one of those brainstorming meetings. It would be magical.

It's also sometimes painful. We can argue just as much as folks on the forums, and have an equally diverse range of opinions on what's a good idea as you'll find here. What's more, we have more of a personal stake in it. Of course, we're also professionals... but we're also professional nerds. So it's not quite the same thing.

You have no idea how much that post made me feel I want to work with video games. Damn you =D

[In Exile]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...
Why sure, that's the plan all of us brown-nosers here have. We're all privy to BW's deepest, darkest secrets. In fact, I'll make sure to pass along the suggestion that in their next game, BW should have 30 waves of ninja-like enemies dropping from the ceiling, JUST for you.

I don't want to brag, but I was the one that asked for DAII to drown a puppy for each user...

[tmp7704]

Darth Wraith wrote...

Actually this was one of the things I liked the most about the game. I am so sick of "save the world"-plotlines. (..) One of my favourite game experiences in recent years was Mask of the Betrayer, and that was because it was an intensely personal quest. Not to mention what I consider the greatest game ever written, Planescape: Torment, which was all about one man's journey to (literally) discover who he was.

I think Planescape is poor example to bring up, since it still revolves about the protagonist being unique and awesome all-kinds-of-badass snow flake that leaves people in his wake affected forever -- this is just combined with extra layer of discovering these things about "yourself", that you're all these things.

"Save the world" is just simple mechanics to give the player sense of importance and self-worth. Some games may opt for a different approach, but at the end of the day they're doing the same thing.

Modifié par tmp7704, 28 avril 2011 - 04:49 .

[Oloria]

Although I do like to see developers and writers posting within the community, I honestly can't imagine what they must get out of it. I understand why the majority of them avoid the forums altogether - I'm pretty sure I would in their position.

Even in the genuinely constructive feedback, so much is contradictory from person to person that it must be impossible to identify which criticisms to take and which to leave amidst all the white noise. Personally I've seen more instances of games suffering because developers listened too much to vocal minorities, than when they didn't listen enough (albeit mostly within MMOs, since Bioware games are really the only single player games I own).

I'm inclined to agree with the blogger - "if everything you do is going to ****** someone off anyway, you might as well do what feels right."

[Reinveil]

Oloria wrote...

Even in the genuinely constructive feedback, so much is contradictory from person to person that it must be impossible to identify which criticisms to take and which to leave amidst all the white noise.

Actually, as far as DAII goes, the criticism is pretty consistent.

[Pygmali0n]

David Gaider wrote...

Rockpopple wrote...
I suppose that would come down to recognizing who's doing the posting, wouldn't it? I mean, if you didn't spend any time on the forums, I imagine it'd be impossible to tell who was reacting because of emotion and who was just trolling.

It's very easy for all the responses to kind of blur together-- that happens even to those of us who do spend time here. Heck, I'd say most of the regular posters do it from time to time as well. If you start imagining the fans as a collective unit without distinguishing between them it really seems like they're a group that has no idea what it wants and wouldn't like it even if you gave it to them.

It's not quite true, of course, but I certainly don't fault the majority of developers for not bothering. The idea that any developer would feel beholden to sift through masses of posts in search of that golden nugget of wisdom is probably something you're only going to find on the forums-- I think for most developers it's a little baffling and they'd really much rather just get on with their work. I mean, who wouldn't?

Of course there are people here who are interested, both official and unofficial (like John and myself). We do it because it would be worse, in our opinions, to develop in a vacuum. Not that developing in a committee would be any better, of course, and despite the fact that some fans seem to mistake the forums for one it still can be really useful to get the feedback here-- as blunt as it may occasionally be.

I dunno David, I think I'd be happier for you to trust in your own judgement - take in influences of course - but make your babies outside of the confusing sway of the clamouring forum, it is more like the arena after all.

Not to say that you are in absolute control of the end product. Ifeel that there were awesome ideas behind DA2 and the concept was great - but the time constraints, the off-camera story development, the short cuts, the overall delivery just fell short of what was needed - perhaps making the story smaller perversely required more work - intimate detail was needed instead of epic strokes. That and expectations, make Marketing manage expectations properly.

So I think I mean: concentrate on the form and not the forum - on what is possible but still participates in greatness - like restrictive haikus and sonnets. The best mark I ever got from my university French tutor was on a piece of work which set the most restrictive conditions, it forced me to focus, and unless you're disciplined enough to just take one nugget and sit on it, the forum is the opposite of that.

Modifié par Pygmali0n, 28 avril 2011 - 09:57 .

[neppakyo]

A planscape kinda story with morrigan's child woulda been kinda interesting.

Personally, think if you're not going for save the world, go that kind of route. Pretty much any kind of story (inculding frame narrative) have been done and are cliche. Mask of the betrayer did a pretty good job.

[Morroian]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...
There are companies that allow gamers/users to do a bit of that. One from the US is Stardock. Loyal customers are invited to test alpha versions and give their input on it. I was a crtitic there as much as I am here, and even I got that opportunity. A very cool company. 

Until Elemental happened and now they've sold Impulse. Although they have been smart in recruiting Derek Paxton, the guy who created the best mod ever, Fall From Heaven for Civ 4.

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

I've always wanted to play Divinity 2, but alas their DRM is not a bridge I am willing to take. Looks like a good game indeed, though.

Its an action rpg even moreso than DA2 so I don't see why you would like that but not DA2.

Modifié par Morroian, 28 avril 2011 - 10:34 .

[v_ware]

Good read, thanks for posting!

[iamtruth]

Very interesting!

[AngryFrozenWater]

Morroian wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...
There are companies that allow gamers/users to do a bit of that. One from the US is Stardock. Loyal customers are invited to test alpha versions and give their input on it. I was a crtitic there as much as I am here, and even I got that opportunity. A very cool company. 

Until Elemental happened and now they've sold Impulse. Although they have been smart in recruiting Derek Paxton, the guy who created the best mod ever, Fall From Heaven for Civ 4.

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

I've always wanted to play Divinity 2, but alas their DRM is not a bridge I am willing to take. Looks like a good game indeed, though.

Its an action rpg even moreso than DA2 so I don't see why you would like that but not DA2.

Yeah... I know about the ups and downs of Stardock. That doesn't change the picture I was trying to paint.

Oh... You would be surprised what I like. It ranges from BF:BC2 to STALKER, from IL-2 to X3:TC and from DA:O to Drakensang. I even like action RPGs. What I do mind is that an established franchise suddenly adds elements that don't belong in the franchise and simplifies elements, just to attract a new audience without any respect for their old one. And that happened to DA2. You can bet that I don't like it when Skyrim removes its open world. Does that mean I want an open world in DA3? Nah. It would be nice, but I will not actively promote the idea, especially if that resulted in less attention for DA's core elements. Magicka is cool, but I think that DA:Vietnam would be a bad idea. And so on.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 01 mai 2011 - 04:14 .

[fallingseraph]

I totally dig Aveyond and Deadly Sin more than DA2 >_< and have played way more hours of those.

[Rinkusu]

As a fan i apreciate the fact that you, the game developers, come to the forums to read and reply. I can also understand why many developers don't do that, reading the post with alot of bickering/annoying/angry posts makes me want to stop reading. But i also know there's alot of good informative posts showing what fans see as goods and wrongs in a game.

I have to admit that i do not like the general direction you guys gave to DA2 (besides the fact that it seems too rushed), but i still admire you as game developers, and hope the next games are better.

[orpheus333]

"Coke would be consumed."

Hence the AWESOEM!11one BUTTON!111on

[Realmzmaster]

I am glad the developers come to the forum to read opinions and sometimes express their own. Some of the changes in DA 2 I thought were very good others not so good. I respect the developers for trying something different.
I also understand reality. As the blog stated games cost money to make. Everyone states that DA 2 could have used another eight to 12 months more development time. It is easy for us (the fans) to say that. The point is that extra development time costs money. I doubt EA was willing to invest more money over the allocated budget.
The reality is that EA is hemorrhaging money . Sales are down. Some of the reasons have to do with the economy (necessities take priority over entertainment) , other are bad decisions on EA's part, the shrinking fan base for CRPGs (make no mistake IMHO the fan base is shrinking).
Now many (myself included) think the decision to release the game with all the repetitive maps and other flaws was a mistake, but when you are trying to get money in the door the short signted decision may be the only one you can make, because you will not make to the long sighted plan. Is this the case I do not know? I do know the decision was made and now EA/Bioware has to live with the ramifications.

[GravityParade]

The same thing happened with Sims 3. There's no toolkit for the new game and all the sudden there's this marketplace for in-game assets. The Sims 3 tried to say it was letting you create the textures and assets in the standard application but in actuality you could only put premade colors and patterns on existing objects. It wasn't like Sims 2 where you could literally import custom 3d objects and textures. I was all excited with Sims 3 because I was going to create the cast of TNG living next to the cast of Deep Space Nine, but it was not to be. I couldn't create sunglasses that looked like Geordie Laforge's ocular device. I couldn't create a Ferengie or Klingon looking face. The sad truth is that even on EA's online marketplace, I couldn't get them either. My perception of the Sims 3 was that it was different than Sims 2 in that it was a game less about me, and more about my credit card. I think it's an industry trend, but it's a symptom of the Evil Empire in gaming -- the big bad publisher overlords like EA, Activision, etc...

[TRSniper4]

I can understand the "magic hat" idea. I think sometimes I want things out of principle, because I fear the "slippery slope" to a future where Call of Duty is considered an RPG . For example, I like ME2 as it is, but had I played ME1 first, I'd be complaining about the lack of inventory and such. The idea of losing inventories in all RPGs by 2015 (number pulled out of my arse) just terrifies me, so I tend to like seeing traditional RPG elements in games, even if they can make it more... bloated .

I guess in the end, all we can do is enjoy games as they are and hope for the best in the future. Who knows, maybe our kids will still be able to play RPGs one day?