324 réponses à ce sujet

[Aggie Punbot]

lolwut666 wrote...

@FemShep fans

It's not a competition, yo.

Don't waste your breath; they've been told this countless numbers of times and they just want to feel persecuted. Logic and reason has no place in their world.

[Shimmer_Gloom]

TS2Aggie wrote...

lolwut666 wrote...

@FemShep fans

It's not a competition, yo.

Don't waste your breath; they've been told this countless numbers of times and they just want to feel persecuted. Logic and reason has no place in their world.

Please, lets try to keep the conversation at certain level of civility.  Nobody likes to be called illogical.

Also, I've been following the thread since I created it and very few times did anyone ever cry 'persecution' that I was able to see.  In fact I can't think of any at the moment.

Saying, "gee, this female version of the character is pretty neat; I wish marketing did more to let people know she was an option," is not crying persecution.

And I have no idea where the sentiment 'its not a competition' comes from.  I can't really wrap my head around what it even means to be honest.  Are they talking about seeing the two genders of the game involved in some kind of popularity contest?  I'm cunfused.  But I don't think its on topic.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

TS2Aggie wrote...

lolwut666 wrote...

@FemShep fans

It's not a competition, yo.

Don't waste your breath; they've been told this countless numbers of times and they just want to feel persecuted. Logic and reason has no place in their world.

I don't see why devoting 1-2% of marketing funds to a feature that is very important to about 20% of fans is illogical. If someone had an actual explanation as to why that'd be a problem, I'd be interested in hearing it. I'm not suggesting spending 1% of the budget JUST to get the idea of FemShep out there, rather I'm suggesting having about 1% of advertising content acknowledge that game feature.

And bear in mind that we're not suggesting this be the primary focus of the mainstream marketing campaign. We are suggesting a very small push to female-oriented online markets.  A line of text and picture on the box (similar to ME1) has also been suggested, along with updating the website so that this feature is mentioned somewhere in the game information section and in the FAQ. Possibly consider a single page ad in an issue of a comic for girls, one that regularly features advertisements for JRPGs? I'm even willing to scrap that last idea, though I honestly don't see how it would hurt to try it once, in one issue.

I think that's modest and not illogical. But if someone can tell me why those three specific suggestions are illogical, I'd be interested in listening. So far the only reasons I've heard are "people don't read the back of the box so it won't matter," which isn't an argument for or against putting the pic and line of text on there.  In regads to the idea of the web campaign, the only objection I heard was that "nobody looks at banner ads, all banner ads on the internet are a useless waste of money that don't work," which is demonstrably false, I think.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 29 avril 2011 - 09:17 .

[JamieCOTC]

I've never been persuaded into buying a game by ads or cover art, but I have been dissuaded by them. I didn't buy ME1 for almost two years because I thought you had to play the dude on the box and every ad sported Sheploo. The ads and art didn't even make me want to know more about the game. If it wasn't for a forum post somewhere about femshep, I would never bought ME1.

Modifié par JamieCOTC, 29 avril 2011 - 10:29 .

[MaynPayn]

That's not shallow at all.
I'm sorry, but I just don't get that, it may be because I'm male and haven't really had to go true empowerment for my gender.
Edit: For a sprinkle of love.

Modifié par MaynPayn, 29 avril 2011 - 10:48 .

[MGIII]

JamieCOTC wrote...

I've never been persuaded into buying a game by ads or cover art, but I have been dissuaded by them. I didn't buy ME1 for almost two years because I thought you had to play the dude on the box and every ad sported Sheploo. The ads and art didn't even make me want to know more about the game. If it wasn't for a forum post somewhere about femshep, I would never bought ME1.

So, what you're saying is that because it was a guy being promoted in all the ads, you didn't give ME a fair shake? For no other reason: not because you didn't like the sci-fi setting, or the promises of an epic story, or the fact that it's a quality, universally praised Bioware game. No, you passed judgment on an entire game because you thought a male was the lead role.

I wonder if I expressed a similar sentiment if femShep was promoted in all the ads, would I not be considered a misogynist.

This is truly where the hang-up between both sides of this argument originates. Why is it that in order to appeal to female gamers, you have to be able to play as a woman? Y'know, not make a great story with personal choices and compelling characters, and have large cinematic appeal. No, just be able to play as a woman. They won't even consider the game if they think you have to play as a male.

I can understand the feeling of being misrepresented, and seeing a female lead in a game provides bonus points. It just seems shallow to me to dismiss entire games just because there isn't a female lead or playable character. And that it's the ignorance of these consumers that needs to be ammended, and not Bioware's marketing. (which does an excellent job of giving a feel for what ME is actually about)

Modifié par MGIII, 29 avril 2011 - 11:29 .

[CulturalGeekGirl]

MGIII wrote...

JamieCOTC wrote...

I've never been persuaded into buying a game by ads or cover art, but I have been dissuaded by them. I didn't buy ME1 for almost two years because I thought you had to play the dude on the box and every ad sported Sheploo. The ads and art didn't even make me want to know more about the game. If it wasn't for a forum post somewhere about femshep, I would never bought ME1.

So, what you're saying is that because it was a guy being promoted in all the ads, you didn't give ME a fair shake? For no other reason: not because you didn't like the sci-fi setting, or the promises of an epic story, or the fact that it's a quality, universally praised Bioware game. No, you passed judgment on an entire game because you thought a male was the lead role.

I wonder if I expressed a similar sentiment if femShep was promoted in all the ads, would I not be considered a misogynist.

This is truly where the hang-up between both sides of this argument originates. Why is it that in order to appeal to female gamers, you have to be able to play as a woman? Y'know, not make a great story with personal choices and compelling characters, and have large cinematic appeal. No, just be able to play as a woman. They won't even consider the game if they think you have to play as a male.

I can understand the feeling of being misrepresented, and seeing a female lead in a game provides bonus points. It just seems shallow to me to dismiss entire games just because there isn't a female lead or playable character. And that it's the ignorance of these consumers that needs to be ammended, and not Bioware's marketing. (which does an excellent job of giving a feel for what ME is actually about)

You keep taking single posts out of context in the larger discussion... which is perfectly understanable, considering how much text there is in this thread. Allow me to contextualize.

A lot of women here have expressed that they've enjoyed games with male protagonists in the past: JRPGs, Nathan Drake, Guybrush Threepwood, that kind of thing. It's not all about dudes vs. ladies. It's about whether or not the main character seems likable to a particular person.

But the genre of "space shooter" is one that often does a pretty terrible job at being appealing to women who like dialogue and nuanced characters. Halo and Gears of War are fine games, but they're not games I like. They're not games that have a high percentage of female players (as far as I know). Much of the mainstream advertising makes Mass Effect look like Halo or Gears of War, games that a female RPG fan are less likely to be interested in - grim, space shooters headed up by generic stoic dudes. Bear in mind that the ME2 website doesn't even say the word RPG on the front page or Game Info page! It only mentions dialogue in the context of renegade interrupts, which makes it sound like the conversations are all just quicktime events!

Very little of the advertising for mass effect showed that it was an RPG with nuanced dialogue and character development. There was little hint of any plot more complex than "kill some aliens, save the galaxy." I don't want to play a shooter where a grim emotionless dude kills aliens to save the galaxy. I want to play an RPG where an interesting character talks with aliens and investigates a galactic mystery. Mass Effect is BOTH of those games at the same time. They already advertise to the people who want an emotionless shooter. They don't advertise to the people who want a character-based RPG.

Letting people know the main character is customizeable and can be a woman gives the first hint that this game is not Gears or Halo. Game design companies that are paying attention to both women and men often make female playable characters, and so a female playable character is a hint that maybe this company is paying attention to both genders. That is what we need... hints, other than the Bioware name, that this game is not Gears or Halo. Which are both great games... just not games that I want to play.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 30 avril 2011 - 12:06 .

[Pani Mauser]

JamieCOTC wrote...

I've never been persuaded into buying a game by ads or cover art, but I have been dissuaded by them. I didn't buy ME1 for almost two years because I thought you had to play the dude on the box and every ad sported Sheploo. The ads and art didn't even make me want to know more about the game. If it wasn't for a forum post somewhere about femshep, I would never bought ME1.

Wow, and I though I was the only one who got to play the game just recently because of that dude on the box!  I remember I've seen it, didn't like the main character and forgot about the game immediately.

Then this winter I felt the urge to play some space opera, and Mass Effect was the most recommended, so I decided to give it a chance. And what a nice surprise, I don't have to play as that cover guy! And even better, I can play as a girl. And then the game blew me away and now I'm a fan. 

If the message that you can create your custom character of any gender was more clear, I'd get the game and discovered how awesome it is a lot earlier.

Modifié par Babe Mause, 29 avril 2011 - 11:58 .

[MGIII]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

You keep taking single posts out of context in the larger discussion... which is perfectly understanable, considering how much text there is in this thread. Allow me to contextualize.

I did not take anything out of context. I already responded to the other points.

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

It's not all about dudes vs. ladies.

By the sound of multiple posts here, that seems to be exactly the case. Only you and Shimmer raised other points by what I've seen.

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

But the genre of "space shooter" is one that often does a pretty terrible job at being appealing to women who like dialogue and nuanced characters. Halo and Gears of War are fine games, but they're not games I like. They're not games that have a high percentage of female players (as far as I know). Much of the mainstream advertising makes Mass Effect look like Halo or Gears of War, games that a female RPG fan are less likely to be interested in - grim, space shooters headed up by generic stoic dudes. Bear in mind that the ME2 website doesn't even say the word RPG on the front page or Game Info page! It only mentions dialogue in the context of renegade interrupts, which makes it sound like the conversations are all just quicktime events!

I know for a fact that there's an entire clan of women that play, adore, and love Halo. Namely, the PMS clan. And they like the game because it has a coherent and epic story, great gameplay, and a blast to play with friends. Y'know, because that's what games are there for, to have fun.

Bioware could do well to advertise the customizability of ME more. I said as much already. You repeat these points I've already addressed.

And the reason Mass Effect is similar to those games is because pretty much the exact same premise for its story: humanity's existence is in peril, only you can save them. And that's how it's marketed.

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Very little of the advertising for mass effect showed that it was an RPG with nuanced dialogue and character development. There was little hint of any plot more complex than "kill some aliens, save the galaxy." I don't want to play a shooter where a grim emotionless dude kills aliens to save the galaxy. I want to play an RPG where an interesting character talks with aliens and investigates a galactic mystery. Mass Effect is BOTH of those games at the same time. They already advertise to the people who want an emotionless shooter. They don't advertise to the people who want a character-based RPG.

Letting people know the main character is customizeable and can be a woman gives the first hint that this game is not Gears or Halo. Game design companies that are paying attention to both women and men often make female playable characters, and so a female playable character is a hint that maybe this company is paying attention to both genders. That is what we need... hints, other than the Bioware name, that this game is not Gears or Halo. Which are both great games... just not games that I want to play.

I thought that the whole "fight for the lost" campaign where they would have the characters talk about being loyal to you was very indicative of a character driven game. I dunno, that's just me.

And ME's plot is exactly no more complex than "kill some aliens; save the galaxy." That's what the plot condenses to, and what should be marketed when you have to sell a game in thirty seconds or less. 

Modifié par MGIII, 30 avril 2011 - 12:16 .

[MaynPayn]

MGIII wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

You keep taking single posts out of context in the larger discussion... which is perfectly understanable, considering how much text there is in this thread. Allow me to contextualize.

I did not take anything out of context. I already responded to the other points.

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

It's not all about dudes vs. ladies.

By the sound of multiple posts here, that seems to be exactly the case. Only you and Shimmer raised other points by what I've seen.

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

But the genre of "space shooter" is one that often does a pretty terrible job at being appealing to women who like dialogue and nuanced characters. Halo and Gears of War are fine games, but they're not games I like. They're not games that have a high percentage of female players (as far as I know). Much of the mainstream advertising makes Mass Effect look like Halo or Gears of War, games that a female RPG fan are less likely to be interested in - grim, space shooters headed up by generic stoic dudes. Bear in mind that the ME2 website doesn't even say the word RPG on the front page or Game Info page! It only mentions dialogue in the context of renegade interrupts, which makes it sound like the conversations are all just quicktime events!

I know for a fact that there's an entire clan of women that play, adore, and love Halo. Namely, the PMS clan. And they like the game because it has a coherent and epic story, great gameplay, and a blast to play with friends. Y'know, because that's what games are there for, to have fun.

Bioware could do well to advertise the customizability of ME more. I said as much already. You repeat these points I've already addressed.

And the reason Mass Effect is similar to those games is because pretty much the exact same premise for its story: humanity's existence is in peril, only you can save them. And that's how it's marketed.

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Very little of the advertising for mass effect showed that it was an RPG with nuanced dialogue and character development. There was little hint of any plot more complex than "kill some aliens, save the galaxy." I don't want to play a shooter where a grim emotionless dude kills aliens to save the galaxy. I want to play an RPG where an interesting character talks with aliens and investigates a galactic mystery. Mass Effect is BOTH of those games at the same time. They already advertise to the people who want an emotionless shooter. They don't advertise to the people who want a character-based RPG.

Letting people know the main character is customizeable and can be a woman gives the first hint that this game is not Gears or Halo. Game design companies that are paying attention to both women and men often make female playable characters, and so a female playable character is a hint that maybe this company is paying attention to both genders. That is what we need... hints, other than the Bioware name, that this game is not Gears or Halo. Which are both great games... just not games that I want to play.

I thought that the whole "fight for the lost" campaign where they would have the characters talk about being loyal to you was very indicative of a character driven game. I dunno, that's just me.

And ME's plot is exactly no more complex than "kill some aliens; save the galaxy." That's what the plot condenses to, and what should be marketed when you have to sell a game in thirty seconds or less. 

^This.

This thread in general is only repeating itself by now, everyone pretty much agrees that there should be something that would advertise for femshep/cusomizable shep, just not an entire campaign and we are only discussing the little things anyways myself included. 

[TheScrogging]

they should get rid of femshep instead. none of my friends including I, never use her because she sounds like a cow

[MaynPayn]

bad troll.

[Centauri2002]

TheScrogging wrote...

they should get rid of femshep instead. none of my friends including I, never use her because she sounds like a cow

Double negative so that means you all play her. Good for you!

As for the whole MaleShep vs. FemShep, this isn't about that. No one's saying that MaleShep shouldn't be represented, no one's saying Sheploo shouldn't be the iconic Shepard. What's wrong with asking for a little representation? I don't see the problem. I'll say it again, we're not asking to have anything replaced, just a small item added - whether that be in the form of a secondary trailer or an alternative cover. Something like that.

[MGIII]

centauri2002 wrote...

TheScrogging wrote...

they should get rid of femshep instead. none of my friends including I, never use her because she sounds like a cow

Double negative so that means you all play her. Good for you!

As for the whole MaleShep vs. FemShep, this isn't about that. No one's saying that MaleShep shouldn't be represented, no one's saying Sheploo shouldn't be the iconic Shepard. What's wrong with asking for a little representation? I don't see the problem. I'll say it again, we're not asking to have anything replaced, just a small item added - whether that be in the form of a secondary trailer or an alternative cover. Something like that.

I addressed those points somewhere in this thread. I wonder if Shimmer could append some of the main points and their rebuttals to the OP, if only to cut down on repeated arguments.

[Centauri2002]

MGIII wrote...

I addressed those points somewhere in this thread. I wonder if Shimmer could append some of the main points and their rebuttals to the OP, if only to cut down on repeated arguments.

Yes, I realise I'm repeating myself somewhat but I've not seen an argument that convinces me otherwise.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

MGIII wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

You keep taking single posts out of context in the larger discussion... which is perfectly understanable, considering how much text there is in this thread. Allow me to contextualize.

I did not take anything out of context. I already responded to the other points.

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

It's not all about dudes vs. ladies.

By the sound of multiple posts here, that seems to be exactly the case. Only you and Shimmer raised other points by what I've seen.

I believe your conclusion here makes some very strong assumptions. Most posters here have not said "I never play games with male protagonists" just "I overlooked Mass Effect until I saw you could play as a female." These do not mean the same thing. That statement means only that Mass Effect, in particular, needed to convey this message in order to distinguish itself from its fellows, not that all games do. In my case, and in the case of many women here, I didn't find the main character appealing, so playing as a female was a way to play as not him.

MGIII wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

But the genre of "space shooter" is one that often does a pretty terrible job at being appealing to women who like dialogue and nuanced characters. Halo and Gears of War are fine games, but they're not games I like. They're not games that have a high percentage of female players (as far as I know). Much of the mainstream advertising makes Mass Effect look like Halo or Gears of War, games that a female RPG fan are less likely to be interested in - grim, space shooters headed up by generic stoic dudes. Bear in mind that the ME2 website doesn't even say the word RPG on the front page or Game Info page! It only mentions dialogue in the context of renegade interrupts, which makes it sound like the conversations are all just quicktime events!

I know for a fact that there's an entire clan of women that play, adore, and love Halo. Namely, the PMS clan. And they like the game because it has a coherent and epic story, great gameplay, and a blast to play with friends. Y'know, because that's what games are there for, to have fun.

Bioware could do well to advertise the customizability of ME more. I said as much already. You repeat these points I've already addressed.

And the reason Mass Effect is similar to those games is because pretty much the exact same premise for its story: humanity's existence is in peril, only you can save them. And that's how it's marketed.

Once again you are misreading my statements. I didn't say not many girls play Halo. I said I don't think Halo has a high percentage of female fans. Would you say that a large percentage of Halo fans are female, more than say 35%? That's the percentage of female players I've seen reported on surveys for MMOs and a few RPGs, and it's what I consider a "large percent" of a game's fanbase. I don't think that 35%+ of Halo's fanbase is female, based on experiences my friends have had. Do you disagree? I will admit to not having access to those statistics. Also, I do laud Bungie for adding a female Spartan, because they "don’t want to just focus mainly on the 18 to 30 male crowd." as one of their producers said in this article. I'd estimate that Halo probably has about a million female players, probably around 10-15% of the playerbase. That's not a 'large percentage' in my mind, but again, nobody has access to those figures. If you think the percentage is closer to 30, please let me know. Like I said, I think it's a great game, just one I don't feel any desire to play at the moment.

Anyway, that wasn't my main point. I also said Halo doesn't appeal to female RPG fans. I think Mass Effect can appeal to both Shooter fans and RPG fans. It has already reached the Shooter fans. I'm not just saying advertise the customizeability. A lot of RPG fans like dialogue and party interactions. A few shots of banter with Garrus, or the Tali Hug, that kind of stuff could be golden.

Here we must part ways - I don't think that the premise of a game is the most important aspect of that game, advertising-wise. I think gameplay and characters are more important. The premise of every JRPG ever is collect X to save the world! I don't want to play 90% of those games. What a game has to do to attract me is advertise the quality of its execution, not the simplicity of its premise.

MGIII wrote...
I thought that the whole "fight for the lost" campaign where they would have the characters talk about being loyal to you was very indicative of a character driven game. I dunno, that's just me.

And ME's plot is exactly no more complex than "kill some aliens; save the galaxy." That's what the plot condenses to, and what should be marketed when you have to sell a game in thirty seconds or less. 

I'll admit that if I had somehow seen Mordin's Fight for the lost (the best of the entire series, in my mind) I probably would have found Mass Effect much sooner. That is the perfect mix... someone who isn't just there to fight and be stupid. A scientist; a statesman. Yes, I would play that game. But somehow I never saw that. I missed it. I saw plenty of ads and trailers for Mass Effect, but none of them linked to any of the Fight for the Lost trailers. That stuff needs to be more front-and-center for sure. If I were putting together that "banner ads for girls' sites" I'd definitely put some links to the FFTL vids on the linked page.

That said, all of them but Mordin's feature the character's interactions with Shep, and I just don't like that guy. He's just not my cup of ovaltine, and I can't finish a game where I hate the main character. I barely finished FFX, for that very reason. Luckily Tidus was the main character, and Yuna was more the LI. Still, do not care for her. I never finished FFVII partially because I didn't care for Squall. Liking the character you're playing matters. Those trailers don't even show the interesting aspects of MaleShepard.

I also disagree about the plot thing. To me, Mass Effect's plot is this: "A rogue alien agent is carrying out a deadly vendetta against humanity, and you're the only one who can stop him. You and your team of aliens must discover his link to the sinister force behind a cycle of galactic extinction, and stop that cycle from starting again."

That is so much more compelling than "kill aliens, save humans," at least to me.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 30 avril 2011 - 01:21 .

[CulturalGeekGirl]

MaynPayn wrote...

This thread in general is only repeating itself by now, everyone pretty much agrees that there should be something that would advertise for femshep/cusomizable shep, just not an entire campaign and we are only discussing the little things anyways myself included.

I wish it were so, but there are still quite a few posters who believe that Femshep should never be advertised, or that there's no real need to advertise her.

Also, a lot of people are reaching the false conclusion that "knowing you could play as a female made me want to learn more about this game" means "knowing you could play as a female is the factor that determines my decisions about every game." Those statements may seem similar, but they are not identical. You cannot generalize one from the other.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 30 avril 2011 - 01:25 .

[MaynPayn]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

MaynPayn wrote...

This thread in general is only repeating itself by now, everyone pretty much agrees that there should be something that would advertise for femshep/cusomizable shep, just not an entire campaign and we are only discussing the little things anyways myself included.

I wish it were so, but there are still quite a few posters who believe that Femshep should never be advertised, or that there's no real need to advertise her.

Also, a lot of people are reaching the false conclusion that "knowing you could play as a female made me want to learn more about this game" means "knowing you could play as a female is the only thing that's important to me." Those statements may seem similar, but they are not identical. You cannot generalize one from the other.

I am guessing they are just misunderstanding what is actually proposed, like I did.

It actually means the same thing from a third party marketing standpoint. It is meant that way from the people making the statements too because they know that.

[MGIII]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

I believe your conclusion here makes some very strong assumptions. Most posters here have not said "I never play games with male protagonists" just "I overlooked Mass Effect until I saw you could play as a female." These do not mean the same thing. That statement means only that Mass Effect, in particular, needed to convey this message in order to attract women, not that all games do.

They have openly admitted that they only became interested in ME when they found out you could be a woman, and made the implication they would not enjoy ME is they had to play as maleShep. And although I can understand their motives, I found it to be shallow to ignore what is a spectacular game outside of gender options.

And what makes ME's emphasis on gender roles much more necessary than any other game, which includes RPGs with gender options as well.

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Anyway, that wasn't my main point. I also said Halo doesn't appeal to female RPG fans. I think Mass Effect can appeal to both Shooter fans and RPG fans. It has already reached the Shooter fans. I'm not just saying advertise the customizeability. A lot of RPG fans like dialogue and party interactions. A few shots of banter with Garrus, or the Tali Hug, that kind of stuff could be golden.

Well, now we're straying away from appealing to women and promoting femShep, and entering into the realm of roping in the greater RPG crowd, predominately those playing MMORPGs and JRPGs. Which is an addendum to the original premise at the most. There are a higher percentage of women in those genres, but the fundamentals of those games differ from ME.

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Here we must part ways - I don't think that the premise of a game is the most important aspect of that game, advertising-wise. I think gameplay and characters are more important. The premise of every JRPG ever is collect X to save the world! I don't want to play 90% of those games. What a game has to do to attract me is advertise the quality of its execution, not the simplicity of its premise.

Marketing is supposed to get you interested in the game, which is why you have to sell its premise. ME's actual gameplay is essentially a limited version of Gears of War's combat and cover system, with powers mixed in. You're better off showing the epic moments of the game.

MGIII wrote...
I thought that the whole "fight for the lost" campaign where they would have the characters talk about being loyal to you was very indicative of a character driven game. I dunno, that's just me.

And ME's plot is exactly no more complex than "kill some aliens; save the galaxy." That's what the plot condenses to, and what should be marketed when you have to sell a game in thirty seconds or less. 

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

That said, all of them but Mordin's feature the character's interactions with Shep, and I just don't like that guy. He's just not my cup of ovaltine, and I can't finish a game where I hate the main character. I barely finished FFX, for that very reason. Luckily Tidus was the main character, and Yuna was more the LI. Still, do not care for her.

I also disagree about the plot thing. To me, Mass Effect's plot is this: "A rogue alien agent is carrying out a deadly vendetta against humanity, and you're the only one who can stop him. You and your team of aliens must discover his link to the sinister force behind a cycle of galactic extinction, and stop that cycle from starting again."

That is so much more compelling than "kill aliens, save humans," at least to me.

MaleShep = FemShep, unless inflection and the romance options are really that big a deal for you. We've discussed this before.

And you mentioned that the ads do not show character interaction. Well, I just looked at the Launch Trailer, and there was plenty of Shepard-squadmate interaction, and even some squadmate-squadmate interaction. The only way the demographic we're discussing can look at that trailer and not get an inkling of what ME is about on a personal and character building level is if they are put off by the focus on action sequences, or are put off by the protagonist being a male. In either case, the character interaction inherent in ME is clearly on display in that trailer alone.

"A rogue alien agent is carrying out a deadly vendetta against humanity,
and you're the only one who can stop him. You and your team of aliens
must discover his link to the sinister force behind a cycle of galactic
extinction, and stop that cycle from starting again." = "kill aliens; save humans." ME, and most sci-fi games, are literally TIM's wettest dreams. (there are a few inconsistencies with your summary, but they are negligible)

^That is no less of "kill aliens; save humans" than:

"You are the lone force capable of thrawting a zealous conglemerate of aliens hellbent of stamping humanity out of existence. Armed with the greatest resource at humanity's disposal, a super-intelligent A.I, you must uncover ancient technologies left by the charismatic race known only as the Forerunners--who have mysteriously disappeared--in order to combat these foes. And in the process, unleash a threat much more sinister than ever imaginable..."

or

"A powerful foe has risen from the depths of Sera to threathen humanity's existence. With his hardened squad of elite soldiers, Marcus Fenix is our best hope to drive back these invaders and stay alive. But as they delve into the depths of Sera itself, they discover the threat is much more powerful than originally believed.

So, ME's story is pretty par for the course. It's interesting which is what is most important.

Modifié par MGIII, 30 avril 2011 - 01:47 .

[Shimmer_Gloom]

MGIII wrote...

centauri2002 wrote...

TheScrogging wrote...

they should get rid of femshep instead. none of my friends including I, never use her because she sounds like a cow

Double negative so that means you all play her. Good for you!

As for the whole MaleShep vs. FemShep, this isn't about that. No one's saying that MaleShep shouldn't be represented, no one's saying Sheploo shouldn't be the iconic Shepard. What's wrong with asking for a little representation? I don't see the problem. I'll say it again, we're not asking to have anything replaced, just a small item added - whether that be in the form of a secondary trailer or an alternative cover. Something like that.

I addressed those points somewhere in this thread. I wonder if Shimmer could append some of the main points and their rebuttals to the OP, if only to cut down on repeated arguments.

[sarcasm]Ug.  So, since I started this I have the responsibility of maintaining the thread?  Lame. [/sarcasm]

Yeah.  I think it would help alot if I condescened some of the arguments and their rebutals on the main post.  It was really just a frustrated ramble anyway and needed to be cleaned up.  I'll... get around to doing it eventually.  Other posters have been doing a much better job at articulating my points (probably becuase they are women and have first hand experience with the marketing's failures) than me so it has lulled me into complacentcy.

[Shimmer_Gloom]

@MGIII: Oh, I think the marketing for ME2 was a step in the right direction (in some places, in others it fell short, like even mentioning the customization factor). And the marketing for DA2 even moreso. But I think it could also be better.

And, also, I think you are underestimating the power of being able to identify with the protagonist. I know I often forget how powerful it can be. And as a white, straight guy, I see myself reflected in media all the time.

But any time there is a character (especially in a wish-fulfillment kind of media like comics or games) that has a character that isn't like me, they are immediately latched onto by folks craving some representation. Like Static-shock. He's a black kid that isn't a racial stereotype and doesn't have 'black' in his name like Black-panther or Black Thunder. Do you know how rare that is?

I know didn't word that as well as I could... but essentially positive representations of women are so scarce in games that the few times devs get it right, it shouldn't be so easy to miss. You know what I'm saying?

[JamieCOTC]

MGIII wrote...

JamieCOTC wrote...

I've never been persuaded into buying a game by ads or cover art, but I have been dissuaded by them. I didn't buy ME1 for almost two years because I thought you had to play the dude on the box and every ad sported Sheploo. The ads and art didn't even make me want to know more about the game. If it wasn't for a forum post somewhere about femshep, I would never bought ME1.

So, what you're saying is that because it was a guy being promoted in all the ads, you didn't give ME a fair shake? For no other reason: not because you didn't like the sci-fi setting, or the promises of an epic story, or the fact that it's a quality, universally praised Bioware game. No, you passed judgment on an entire game because you thought a male was the lead role.

I wonder if I expressed a similar sentiment if femShep was promoted in all the ads, would I not be considered a misogynist.

This is truly where the hang-up between both sides of this argument originates. Why is it that in order to appeal to female gamers, you have to be able to play as a woman? Y'know, not make a great story with personal choices and compelling characters, and have large cinematic appeal. No, just be able to play as a woman. They won't even consider the game if they think you have to play as a male.

I can understand the feeling of being misrepresented, and seeing a female lead in a game provides bonus points. It just seems shallow to me to dismiss entire games just because there isn't a female lead or playable character. And that it's the ignorance of these consumers that needs to be ammended, and not Bioware's marketing. (which does an excellent job of giving a feel for what ME is actually about)

It was because it was some space marine Vanilla Ice clone on the cover that I didn't even give ME1 a second look, let alone try to do any research into it.  I was tired of the macho space marine trope waaaaay before Halo came out, let alone Mass Effect.  Hell, space marines were old hat when Aliens came out in 1986. Also, I'm not a fan of pure shooters and the two ads I saw, the "Novaria ad" and the "You are Commander Shepard" campaigns just didn’t grab me. It just looked like the same old same old.  If there had been a female space marine on the cover, I would have been like, “Huh, that’s different.”  And MAYBE I would have actually looked the game up and found out what it was all about.  Hell, if it had been a cat space marine on the cover that would have at least gotten my attention.  I admit I didn’t give the game a chance at first, but that was because it looked like every other shooter I had seen and it just did not interest me.  I would never say that BW’s marketing failed, but I’m not the gamer they were aiming for either.   

Modifié par JamieCOTC, 30 avril 2011 - 02:00 .

[MGIII]

Imperium Alpha wrote...

FemShep was dismissed by the Turian Councilor if i remember correctly...

'Cause she never called him after he tried to give her his number after the Spetre Induction. Denial.

[JamieCOTC]

Hell, let's just put Blasto on the cover of ME3 and all "this" can go away.