324 réponses à ce sujet

[jlb524]

MGIII wrote...

I wonder if I expressed a similar sentiment if femShep was promoted in all the ads, would I not be considered a misogynist.

Not really, but you must understand cultural context too.  Expressing disapproval of constant MShep promotion given the history of such things =/= Expressing disapproval of BW usning FShep for ME3.

MGIII wrote...
This is truly where the hang-up between both sides of this argument originates. Why is it that in order to appeal to female gamers, you have to be able to play as a woman? Y'know, not make a great story with personal choices and compelling characters, and have large cinematic appeal. No, just be able to play as a woman. They won't even consider the game if they think you have to play as a male.

This actually seems to be a hangup with more males than females (not wanting to play the other gender) which is why the marketing tends to use a dude in the first place.  Also, most people who express that view didn't know anything about these game details or they'd know you could play as a woman.

[MGIII]

JamieCOTC wrote...

It was because it was some space marine Vanilla Ice clone on the cover that I didn't even give ME1 a second look, let alone try to do any research into it.

I didn't really read the rest, but I'm buying any game where Vanilla Ice is an actual space marine so hard.

[Inspectre]

MGIII wrote...

And although I can understand their motives, I found it to be shallow to ignore what is a spectacular game outside of gender options.

Mass Effect would not have been a spectacular game without femShep.

[Xaijin]

Vanilla Ice is an actual space marine so hard.

That would be dawn of war II,

Modifié par Xaijin, 30 avril 2011 - 02:32 .

[Pwener2313]

Default Femshep is ugly. There, the truth hurts.

[ReiSilver]

The much touted 'male market' is already hooked, by this point anyone who only cares about playing a non-customised space marine is already playing the game.
If you want more customers you need to appeal to a BROADER audience.
I know people who saw Mass Effect advertised, shrugged their shoulders and said 'meh, another bald white space marine game, not interested', myself being one of them, but once they find out they can make their own shepard, who can be a woman, or a race other then white, who can still do everything the default character does AND has their own romance options? That's huge.
This kind of thing doesn't need to be in every marketing video. I'd use the DA2 class video as an example: Their marketing Male Hawke was a mage, yet no one got confused or lost finding out you could play as other classes and the marketing felt the need to devote a video to it. Why not a video that shows off character customisation? Just looking at the femshep/manshep threads where people show off their shepards shows how much variety you can get in there.
It's a HUGE draw for many rpg players to not only customise their shepard but to then see that shepard acting in dialogue and cutscenes, so SHOW IT OFF, let people know it's there and thus bring NEW PEOPLE into the franchise

[MGIII]

Dragon XIX wrote...

MGIII wrote...

And although I can understand their motives, I found it to be shallow to ignore what is a spectacular game outside of gender options.

Mass Effect would not have been a spectacular game without femShep.

Your opinion is noted, and I thoroughly disagree with every fiber of my ME-enjoying being.

Modifié par MGIII, 30 avril 2011 - 02:26 .

[Xaijin]

This thread in general is only repeating itself by now, everyone pretty much agrees that there should be something that would advertise for femshep/cusomizable shep, just not an entire campaign and we are only discussing the little things anyways myself included. 

Funny that JKA never had this problem, despite using the same route.

[Pwener2313]

A women saving the galaxy? nah.....

[TomY90]

ReiSilver wrote...

The much touted 'male market' is already hooked, by this point anyone who only cares about playing a non-customised space marine is already playing the game.
If you want more customers you need to appeal to a BROADER audience.
I know people who saw Mass Effect advertised, shrugged their shoulders and said 'meh, another bald white space marine game, not interested', myself being one of them, but once they find out they can make their own shepard, who can be a woman, or a race other then white, who can still do everything the default character does AND has their own romance options? That's huge.
This kind of thing doesn't need to be in every marketing video. I'd use the DA2 class video as an example: Their marketing Male Hawke was a mage, yet no one got confused or lost finding out you could play as other classes and the marketing felt the need to devote a video to it. Why not a video that shows off character customisation? Just looking at the femshep/manshep threads where people show off their shepards shows how much variety you can get in there.
It's a HUGE draw for many rpg players to not only customise their shepard but to then see that shepard acting in dialogue and cutscenes, so SHOW IT OFF, let people know it's there and thus bring NEW PEOPLE into the franchise

Yeah but the major part your forgetting that your example which is Hawke was an all new character never been seen in another game so they could start with a clean slate on that character. 

Whereas the advertising campaigns for Mass Effect series has been round for years now and you cannot go from ME1 DEFAULT MALE SHEPHERD SOLIDER
ME2 DEFAULT MALE  SHEPHERD SOLIDER
ME3 DEFAULT FEMALE SHEPHERD BIOTIC 

the advertising will be mismatched, confused and I know people will not believe this but when people consider games that are part of franchises people do look remember the older trailers they have seen and what trailers they have seen on the internet for the older ones if they search for it.

if i was one of those who knew nothing about ME series I would guess ahh new character must be starting from scratch.

whereas you want it to be as obvious as possible its linking to the previous games which changing shepherds and class will fail that objective

[MaynPayn]

Xaijin wrote...

This thread in general is only repeating itself by now, everyone pretty much agrees that there should be something that would advertise for femshep/cusomizable shep, just not an entire campaign and we are only discussing the little things anyways myself included. 

Funny that JKA never had this problem, despite using the same route.

JKA?

Modifié par MaynPayn, 30 avril 2011 - 02:39 .

[Inspectre]

MGIII wrote...

Your opinion is noted, and I thoroughly disagree with every fiber of my ME-enjoying being.

To the vast majority, femshep means nothing.  To a significant minority, femshep means everything.

Modifié par Dragon XIX, 30 avril 2011 - 03:25 .

[Shimmer_Gloom]

Dragon XIX wrote...

MGIII wrote...

Your opinion is noted, and I thoroughly disagree with every fiber of my ME-enjoying being.

To the vast majority, femshep means nothing.  To a significant minority, femshep means everything.

Good point.  But would that minority have been so small had Fem!shep been slightly more visible?  I'd hope not...

[CulturalGeekGirl]

MGIII wrote...

And what makes ME's emphasis on gender roles much more necessary than any other game, which includes RPGs with gender options as well.

Explained before. Marketed as space shooter with humorless male protagonist. Alternative to this personality important. If main protag had been shown as charming, witty, compassionate in trailer, might have been more appealing even without female protag. Still, female protag kills two birds with one stone, is a sign that devs care about females and offers potential for an alternate personality and customizeability.

MGIII wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
Anyway, that wasn't my main point. I also said Halo doesn't appeal to female RPG fans. I think Mass Effect can appeal to both Shooter fans and RPG fans. It has already reached the Shooter fans. I'm not just saying advertise the customizeability. A lot of RPG fans like dialogue and party interactions. A few shots of banter with Garrus, or the Tali Hug, that kind of stuff could be golden.

Well, now we're straying away from appealing to women and promoting femShep, and entering into the realm of roping in the greater RPG crowd, predominately those playing MMORPGs and JRPGs. Which is an addendum to the original premise at the most. There are a higher percentage of women in those genres, but the fundamentals of those games differ from ME.

Disagree. Have stated this before: JRPGs incorporate many styles of gameplay. Some even have shooter-like aspects: Dark Cloud, Ocarina of Time, etc. Many RPGs feature fast-paced, action-heavy gameplay, not very different from Mass Effect. See also: Fallout 3, which is marketed better to women, in my experience; also an RPG shooter. Ads reveal both shooter aspect and the game's inherent humor and atmosphere. Also, got prominent female nerd (Felicia Day) to appear, talk about and endorse it. Good marketing. Savvy.

MGIII wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
What a game has to do to attract me is advertise the quality of its execution, not the simplicity of its premise.

Marketing is supposed to get you interested in the game, which is why you have to sell its premise. ME's actual gameplay is essentially a limited version of Gears of War's combat and cover system, with powers mixed in. You're better off showing the epic moments of the game.

Execution does not equal combat system. Once again, when I see a trailer for Fallout 3, I think 'this game has humor and atmosphere!" Most trailers for ME3 fail to show off its strong writing and choice, which are what makes its execution different from any other game.

MGIII wrote...
MaleShep = FemShep, unless inflection and the romance options are really that big a deal for you. We've discussed this before.

And I disagree. Voice and character model are hugely important in defining any animated or video game character's personality. That's why they got Keith David for Anderson, and modeled Anderson to resemble Keith David. If Anderson was played by and modeled after Gilbert Godfried, do you think you'd view him in the same way? I wouldn't! To give a female example, so you know this isn't gender based: I would probably not want to play a game where the main character was modeled after and voiced by Paris Hilton. But I'd play one where the main character was modeled after and voiced by Alyson Hannigan.

MGIII wrote...
And you mentioned that the ads do not show character interaction. Well, I just looked at the Launch Trailer, and there was plenty of Shepard-squadmate interaction, and even some squadmate-squadmate interaction. The only way the demographic we're discussing can look at that trailer and not get an inkling of what ME is about on a personal and character building level is if they are put off by the focus on action sequences, or are put off by the protagonist being a male. In either case, the character interaction inherent in ME is clearly on display in that trailer alone.

I'll agree that that trailer is a lot better than anything else I've seen so far, other than the Mordin FFTL trailer. The weird thing is I know I saw a lot of ads and trailers for ME1 and ME2, but I never saw that one. Maybe I just got unlucky. That said, if you see that trailer and click on the website, and the website says nothing about dialogue or an RPG, then why would you think it's an RPG? The ME2 Website doesn't have the word dialouge or RPG anywhere on the front page or the Game Information page. The only reference is this: "Control your conversation with physical moments of intense action," which does not sound like an RPG element, it sounds like a description of action-based quicktime events. If I can't tell that there's dialogue or an RPG in your dialogue-heavy RPG after looking at your website for TWENTY GODDAM MINUTES, something is very wrong. So no, that trailer alone doesn't specifically convey that it's an RPG. It hints at character interaction of some kind, but the website offers no confirmation. And again, an unappealing main character of any gender is enough to make someone not play a game. I don't want to play X-Blades either! My dislike of X-Blades isn't based on the girl's outfit, or her lines... her tone of voice and inflection are just infurating and make me hate her (also seriously watch that Unskippable I linked. It is hilarious).  I'm not saying that MaleShep is always unappealing, but those trailers aren't cut to make him look interesting to me.

"A rogue alien agent is carrying out a deadly vendetta against humanity, and you're the only one who can stop him. You and your team of aliens must discover his link to the sinister force behind a cycle of galactic extinction, and stop that cycle from starting again." = "kill aliens; save humans."

ME, and most sci-fi games, are literally TIM's wettest dreams. (there are a few inconsistencies with your summary, but they are negligible)

^That is no less of "kill aliens; save humans" than:

"You are the lone force capable of thrawting a zealous conglemerate of aliens hellbent of stamping humanity out of existence. Armed with the greatest resource at humanity's disposal, a super-intelligent A.I, you must uncover ancient technologies left by the charismatic race known only as the Forerunners--who have mysteriously disappeared--in order to combat these foes. And in the process, unleash a threat much more sinister than ever imaginable..."
or
"A powerful foe has risen from the depths of Sera to threathen humanity's existence. With his hardened squad of elite soldiers, Marcus Fenix is our best hope to drive back these invaders and stay alive. But as they delve into the depths of Sera itself, they discover the threat is much more powerful than originally believed.

So, ME's story is pretty par for the course. It's interesting which is what is most important.

I was trying to keep my summary of Mass Effect as short as possible, but your other summaries are a bit longer, so I'll revise mine.

"Humanity seeks to join the council, the rulers of a long-established galactic community, but the aliens say humanity must earn their place. When a rogue agent of the council attacks human colonies you must gather allies both human and alien and take on a mission to take him down. Can you discover his connection to the cycle of galactic extinction, defeat his army of sentient machines, and secure humanity's place in the galaxy?"

The big thing in Mass Effect is that there are peaceful aliens that are your friends. This is what sets it apart from your other summaries - there are aliens who are on your team. There are aliens you get help from. This is HUGE for me. It's the difference between Star Trek and Independence Day. Both are things I like, but I'd rather play in a Star Trek universe than an Independence day one. Now, I'll admit that the ME2 launch trailer (that I've somehow never seen before today) does totally show you having aliens on your team, as do the alien-based FFTL videos, and that's good.  It shows they've realized they have to set Mass Effect 2 apart from Halo and Gears in some way, narratively.

I just think that some of the print ads could focus on the diverse squad thing a bit more. A poster like this would have made me research Mass Effect, because it gives me something to focus on other than the big crewcutted bro.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 30 avril 2011 - 03:28 .

[Xaijin]

MaynPayn wrote...

Xaijin wrote...

This thread in general is only repeating itself by now, everyone pretty much agrees that there should be something that would advertise for femshep/cusomizable shep, just not an entire campaign and we are only discussing the little things anyways myself included. 

Funny that JKA never had this problem, despite using the same route.

JKA?

Jedi Knight Academy, which has the same set up and also features Hale as the female version of the protagonist.

[ReiSilver]

TomY90 wrote...

ReiSilver wrote...
*snip*

Yeah but the major part your forgetting that your example which is Hawke was an all new character never been seen in another game so they could start with a clean slate on that character. 

Whereas the advertising campaigns for Mass Effect series has been round for years now and you cannot go from ME1 DEFAULT MALE SHEPHERD SOLIDER
ME2 DEFAULT MALE  SHEPHERD SOLIDER
ME3 DEFAULT FEMALE SHEPHERD BIOTIC 

the advertising will be mismatched, confused and I know people will not believe this but when people consider games that are part of franchises people do look remember the older trailers they have seen and what trailers they have seen on the internet for the older ones if they search for it.

if i was one of those who knew nothing about ME series I would guess ahh new character must be starting from scratch.

whereas you want it to be as obvious as possible its linking to the previous games which changing shepherds and class will fail that objective

um what part of 'one video' did you miss? I never said Default shepard should be thrown away or not the focus of many of the advertisements. Just as Default Hawke was in the majority of the videos as a male mage they had ONE VIDEO which showcased class options. Just as you could have ONE VIDEO showcasing shepard customisation and be clear that this is an optional feature.

[MGIII]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
 
*insert stuff you've said here*

Did you really have to write half of that post as if you were Mordin? I'm surprised you didn't take large inhales between the penultimate sentence and the last statement.

Anyways, I grow tired of the quoting, and I've honestly lost grasp of what your main argument is.

If you're suing for Bioware to emphasis its RPG elements more, I don't see how that's unreasonable.

However, if you're trying to plaster femShep on covers and in ads, I find that more detrimental to Bioware's marketing strategy than helpful.

I believe that games should be played on the merit of their gameplay, story, and characters, and not on the mere gender of the main character (of which between the two the difference is marginal from a characterization standpoint). However, showing females they can play as a female will show positive growth in the fanbase. But, as it's been discussed and admitted in this very thread, it would have to be in advertisements and trailers, or else the potential buyer would not even bother researching the game.

I think I summarized the main arguments and conflicts fairly well. Did I miss anything?

Modifié par MGIII, 30 avril 2011 - 05:19 .

[CulturalGeekGirl]

MGIII wrote...

If you're suing for Bioware to emphasis its RPG elements more, I don't see how that's unreasonable.

However, if you're trying to plaster femShep on covers and in ads, I find that more detrimental to Bioware's marketing strategy than helpful.

{Edit: snipped a section, see it below}

I think I summarized the main arguments and conflicts fairly well. Did I miss anything?

Ok, maybe we can finally make some progress. Right here, you've managed to perfectly sum up the reason we're having trouble communicating. People assume that we are asking that Femshep featured just as much as manshep. And then we explain that we don't want that. And then it comes up again, and then we explain that we aren't asking for that. And over and over and over again.

So here is what we actually want. So far nobody has offered any rebuttals for these specific, small scale, intensely targeted initiatives. If you actually do have a rebuttal for them, it would be interesting. I'd be glad to hear it.

We want a small percentage of ads in precisely targeted, female-dominated nerd markets to feature either Femshep or both characters. Do you think that having about 1-2% of print ads (appearing ONLY in manga, comics, and magazines with a majority female readership) feature Femshep would be a problem? If so, why? Would it help if these theoretical ads featured both characters?

Why would it be harmful to have Femshep on the BACK cover of ME3? She was on the back cover of some versions of the ME1 box. Why was it OK in ME1 but bad in ME3?

What would be the harm of having a reversible promo cover with Femshep on the reverse side? Red Alert 2 did something similar, only the reverse side was communism. That side would be is hidden unless the person who buys the game wants to change it, or unless the game store goes to the trouble of reversing the cover in one of their display cases. Reversible covers like this are done all the time, why is it impossible for Mass Effect but OK for many other games?

What would be the problem with doing a small, targeted web campaign focusing on female-dominated web markets? Especially if these ads only ran on webcomics where the artists are Mass Effect fans and have already drawn pictures of Female Shepard in their webcomics?  What if this web advertising push linked back to some gameplay trailers in the bowels of the ME2 site that happened to feature Femshep, as many of the gameplay clips in ME1 did?

That is the kind of advertising push we are advocating. Now it's up to you: does that fit your definition of plastering? In these modern times it's possible to precisely target different ad messages. This way we could let more girls know about femshep without confusing many boys.

I believe that games should be played on the merit of their gameplay, story, and characters, and not on the mere gender of the main character (of which between the two the difference is marginal from a
characterization standpoint). However, showing females they can play as a female will show positive growth in the fanbase. But, as it's been  discussed and admitted in this very thread, it would have to be in advertisements and trailers, or else the potential buyer would not even bother researching the game.

The final point of contention is this: Are voice casting and character model important to perception of a character? Would Captain Anderson be the same character if he were an albino dwarf voiced by Gilbert Gottfried, instead of being modeled after and voiced by Keith David? Do you legitimately believe there is little difference between these two theoretical characters, if they have the same lines? I believe the difference would be more than marginal, it would be extreme.

People are tired of the generic crewcutted space marine. ANY variation from this makes us take notice - if he's gay, if he has ADHD, if he's a cat, if he's a ghost, if he's on fire most of the time, and... yes... if he's female. If you can look at ten other games and see the same face, you won't look closer at a particular game. And since we don't have a hyperactive gay inflammable cat ghost in Mass Effect 2, we'll just have to go with the female. Now, sure, you have to let people know she exists somehow. But see above for the list of ways I think you can let girls know that she exists without confusing the stupid. She doens't have to be a main feature in all the trailers, or plastered all over the site.

If I want to go on the site and try to find her, it should be possible. I want to see her in less than three clicks after I get on the site. It doesn't have to be on the front page. But having a BIG picture of sheploo and a small picture of her on the "game information" page, under a line saying "customize your background, class, and gender!" What harm would that do?

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 30 avril 2011 - 06:56 .

[Aggie Punbot]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

I don't see why devoting 1-2% of marketing funds to a feature that is very important to about 20% of fans is illogical.

20% of what fans? Current fans? Appealing to current loyal fans is pointless because they've already got their guaranteed business. And where exactly are you getting that 20% figure, by the way?

And once again, some people just don't seem to be able to want to understand the fact that making trailers for games is a long and expensive process. Making 'one tiny trailer' is not a minor thing. Adding a line of text on the box that states that you can play as a male or female? Okay. A nondescript image of a helmeted fem Shep on the back cover? Why not. But those 'minor things' are not what is being asked for. Again, marketing is a very time consuming, lengthy and methodical process. If they had marketed fem Shep alongside male Shep from the very beginning, I doubt anyone would have any objection to that continuing but they didn't. Also again, people in general are stupid and will get confused if they add in an "additional" character to the marketing campaign. Some questions/comments that would inevitably arise would be:

- "Holy crap, did Shepard get a sex change?!"
- "Sweet! There's another N7 marine showing up...can't wait to romance her!"
- "WTF? There's another N7 marine showing up...lame! No need to add new characters into the fray in the final game!"

Gamers are, in general, a very whiny and easily angered group of people. They will screech and whine and yell and complain at the smallest little thing, and when those consumers aren't happy, they know exactly how to 'punish' you for it: bad mouth the game to their friends. This will cost EA Games and Bioware valuable revenue and will hurt the game as a whole. It's stupid, unfair and rotten, but there it is.

I maintain my suggestion that if people want to get the word out about the ability to play as a female now (right before ME3 is released), they need to do it themselves and not do it directly at the expense of male Shepard. I meant it when I said that certain fem Shep fans reminded me rather firmly of rather rabid feminist extremists and that is a very bad thing. They need to get out, tell their friends about the game and the ability to play as a female and do it in a respectful way. As much as some may hate to admit it, male Shep is actually quite popular and having people badmouth a popular character right off the bat makes them look bitter and pathetic. Try to avoid falling into this trap.

Modifié par TS2Aggie, 30 avril 2011 - 07:17 .

[MGIII]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

The final point of contention is this: Are voice casting and character model important to perception of a character? Would Captain Anderson be the same character if he were an albino dwarf voiced by Gilbert Gottfried, instead of being modeled after and voiced by Keith David? Do you legitimately believe there is little difference between these two theoretical characters, if they have the same lines? I believe the difference would be more than marginal, it would be extreme.

Except that the physical differences between maleShep and femShep are not that drastic. The fact that you had to resort to such extreme hyperbole to make your point feasible shows how ridiculous the notion is.

The fact of the matter is that there is one character: Shepard. It just so happens that Shepard can be either male or female.

The rest of your post is wholly agreeable from my standpoint.

Modifié par MGIII, 30 avril 2011 - 07:13 .

[CulturalGeekGirl]

MGIII wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

The final point of contention is this: Are voice casting and character model important to perception of a character? Would Captain Anderson be the same character if he were an albino dwarf voiced by Gilbert Gottfried, instead of being modeled after and voiced by Keith David? Do you legitimately believe there is little difference between these two theoretical characters, if they have the same lines? I believe the difference would be more than marginal, it would be extreme.

Except that the physical differences between maleShep and femShep are not that drastic. The fact that you had to resort to such extreme hyperbole to make your point feasible shows how ridiculous the notion is.

The fact of the matter is that there is one character: Shepard. It just so happens that Shepard can be either male or female.

The rest of your post is wholly agreeable from my standpoint.

Let me bring up my less ludicrous example again, and we'll see if we still disagree. Imagine you saw a game where the main character was modeled after and voiced by Paris Hilton. Now imagine this same character modeled after and voiced by Alyson Hannigan. They're two young women, about the same age, similar body types. And yet I would not want to play as Paris Hilton, but I'd want to play as Alyson Hannigan, even if they were saying the same lines in the same inflections. The quality of the voices and the small changes in their respective appearances would change how I felt about them.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 30 avril 2011 - 07:26 .

[MGIII]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Let me bring up my less ludicrous example again, and we'll see if we still disagree. Imagine you saw a game where the main character was modeled after and voiced by Paris Hilton. Now imagine this same character modeled after and voiced by Alyson Hannigan. They're two young women, about the same age, similar body types. And yet I would not want to play as Paris Hilton, but I'd want to play as Alyson Hannigan, even if they were saying the same lines in the same inflections. The quality of the voices and the small changes in their respective appearances would change how I felt about them.

If the character was voiced as an airhead, and written like and airhead, then that's one thing. This is still hyperbole. And a bad one at that, because Paris Hilton's image has connotations to the things she's done in the past and the public's perception of her. Apart from those unsavory aspects, she's attractive enough and has a decent enough voice to deliver a quality performance, if and only if they were delivered at a professional level.

Plenty of people prefer Hale to Meer, I acknowledge that. But he doesn't do a terrible job. I actually like how his voice sounds: it seems ethnicity-neutral. Like I've said before, I have no preference, but their respective voice-overs do not affect my judgment of the singular character they both represent.

Modifié par MGIII, 30 avril 2011 - 07:35 .

[CulturalGeekGirl]

MGIII wrote...

If the character was voiced as an airhead, and written like and airhead, then that's one thing. This is still hyperbole. And a bad one at that, because Paris Hilton's image has connotations to the things she's done in the past and the public's perception of her. Apart from those unsavory aspects, she's attractive enough and has a decent enough voice to deliver a quality performance, if and only if they were delivered at a professional level.

Plenty of people prefer Hale to Meer, I acknowledge that. But he doesn't do a terrible job. I actually like how his voice sounds: it seems ethnicity-neutral. Like I've said before, I have no preference, but their respective voice-overs do not affect my judgment of the singular character they both represent.

What if I do Jennifer Love Hewitt vs. Alyson Hannigan? Good enough? I hate Hewitt for some reason I can't describe. I don't like her face and I don't like her voice. She's pretty and a perfectly fine actress, I just don't like her.

I'm not saying Meer is a bad actor. I'm saying that I don't like the particular character he's portraying. He's doing a very good job of portraying a character who I don't happen to like. If the main character of Mass Effect sounded more like this guy, and looked like this: 

I'd probably like him a lot more.

But I think you've hit the nail on the head here, by pointing out that the image of Paris Hilton conjures negative association. For me, the image of a guy who looks lke Sheploo conjures up negative associations, whereas an image of a guy like Meer conjures positive ones. Does that make sense? 

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 30 avril 2011 - 07:57 .

[CroGamer002]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...


I'm not saying Meer is a bad actor. I'm saying that I don't like the particular character he's portraying.

Can I know whst you don't like about MaleShep but with FemShep you do?

[CulturalGeekGirl]

TS2Aggie wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

I don't see why devoting 1-2% of marketing funds to a feature that is very important to about 20% of fans is illogical.

20% of what fans? Current fans? Appealing to current loyal fans is pointless because they've already got their guaranteed business. And where exactly are you getting that 20% figure, by the way?

Article, cited several times in thread. Bam. 80% of players make custom face, 80% play as male shepard. Means 20% play as female shep. Also means Sheploo face is only used by 20% of fans - same percentage that make female shepards.

And once again, some people just don't seem to be able to want to understand the fact that making trailers for games is a long and expensive process. Making 'one tiny trailer' is not a minor thing.

Incorrect. Gameplay trailers don't take too long. I have a friend who makes gameplay trailers for a major upcoming AAA game. He can make two a day, if they give him a rush job. We're not asking for rendered trailers. Gameplay trailers are fine. Heck, I could pay my friend the freelance editor $100 to make a ME2 trailer. He works for major corporate websites most of the time, but he'd do a pal a favor. My friend who worked for a smaller game company farmed out trailers for a few months when their webguy had medical problems. Heck, you could even have a web contest: make a fanvid for Femshep! Winner will be featured on the ME2 website! Honestly though, judging that contest would be more work than just making the video.

Adding a line of text on the box that states that you can play as a male or female? Okay. A nondescript image of a helmeted fem Shep on the back cover? Why not. But those 'minor things' are not what is being asked for.

Yes, they are. Those are, specifically, the main things we are asking for! (also for a line in the game information section of the website.) Read my post above.

, people in general are stupid and will get confused if they add in an "additional" character to the marketing campaign. Some questions/comments that would inevitably arise would be:
{snip}

This is why I am suggesting intensely targeted ads, primarily on webcomics where the webcomic artist has already done artwork of Femshep, or where the readership is largely female.

How many of these hypothetical "normal idiots" read intensely intellectual comics about the friendship between two girls? How many of them read manga about two hot guys making out? How many of them read girly comics for girls? I think very few. I'm saying we can sterilize our inputs: put these images in places where a large number of smart nerdy girls will see them, but places where dumb guys don't go very often. Unless you're arguing that a ton of moron gamers read mensa-award-winning steampunk romances, shonen ai comics, and feminist blogs?

I maintain my suggestion that if people want to get the word out about the ability to play as a female now (right before ME3 is released), they need to do it themselves and not do it directly at the expense of male Shepard. I meant it when I said that certain fem Shep fans reminded me rather firmly of rather rabid feminist extremists and that is a very bad thing. They need to get out, tell their friends about the game and the ability to play as a female and do it in a respectful way. As much as some may hate to admit it, male Shep is actually quite popular and having people badmouth a popular character right off the bat makes them look bitter and pathetic. Try to avoid falling into this trap.

Actually, Sheploo is no more popular than Femshep. The most popular shepard is a customized male shepard, according to the stats I linked above. Please make a note of it. A lot of girls here have stated that they find the default Sheploo face particularlly offputting, and the default face isn't used by most players. I've said myself that it's the "crewcutted broness" of it all that bugs me. If he looked like Mark Meer, and they used clips of him being funny instead of being dire, we'd have fewer problems all around. Still, only about 20% of players only associate Shepard only with his default face. 80% use something different.

I can dislike something and express my dislike of that thing without that thing being inherently bad. I freaking hate wine. To me it tastes like sour rotten yeastyness. Ugh. And yet I'm sure that wine conisseurs enjoy something about wine, I just cannot fathom what it is. I prefer bourbon. That's on me. When girls say they don't like Manshep, they're really just saying they don't like wine, and how it tastes to them. There's a difference between saying "wine tastes bad to me" and "If you like wine, you're wrong." I honestly think it's far more insulting to say "People who play male shepard are dumb and sexist and will destroy Mass Effect if scared or confused." 

Now, about word of mouth. I blog about Mass Effect every week. I tweet about it. I've told all my friends about it. I've posted about it on god knows how many internet forums. No matter how much I talk to people about Mass Effect, you are gorram insane if you think I can reach 1/100th the number of people that banner ads on Girl Genius or Gunnerkrig Court or Hark a Vagrant can reach. I can only tell the same 1000 people the same thing so many times before it becomes useless. You're essentially proposing a system where 80% of the market gets 100% of the marketing funds. That just does not compute, to me. You also think that any picture of femshep anywhere, even in a publication for girls by girls, hurts manshep. And I don't see how. I can't process the idea that people who read feminist nerd blogs, or Make magazine, or comics about history, are also morons who will react to a female face like Frankenstein to fire.

I believe you can hide a marketing campaign in the "smart" and "girly" parts of the interent and media landscape, so that the only boys who find it will be smart and girly boys.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 30 avril 2011 - 09:05 .