324 réponses à ce sujet

[Rurik_Niall]

Again this may just be due to the fact that I don't view the world in masculine and feminine terms, but I do agree with your analysis of Shepard as a character, and while I may not agree that the ability to play as a male or female is something that is more than just a passing thought I do agree that the role playing aspects could stand to be played up a bit more in the advertising. But then on the other hand simply having Bioware displayed anywhere in the advertisement is enough to tell any true gamer that the game will possess plenty of role playing, a great story, and memorable characters in much the same way that seeing Joss Whedon listed in the credits ensures that you can expect a good quality show.

[MGIII]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

See, here we clearly see the difference between how male gamers percieve character and how females may percieve it. It's quite important. I said that I consider her to be the best female character of all time... meaning that such is my opinion. And no, the romance lines don't factor into my assessment at all, though the fact that you assume they do is... interesting.

No, it's a difference between how you percieve the character and what Bioware actually wrote into the game.

I had to assume you were referring to romance dialogue because that is the only difference (characterization-wise) between maleShep and femShep. Not for whatever vague notion you're implying.

And it is absolutely your opinion. However, in matters such as discussing character merits, of which there are quantifiable and debatable metrics, I challenged it. If you had said, "femShep is my favorite female character of all time," I could not refute that.

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

To me, and to most of the posters in the FemShep thread, Shepard is an incredibly deep character. What kind of character she is comes out in our play. Jane is a model soldier, a true hero, and a white knight. A true diplomat among the stars, and a hero that all young girls can look up to. Crow is a sociopath. The fact that both these characters exist in the same game, waiting to be discovered, is marvelous. It's something I haven't felt in any other game, not even other Bioware games, not even DA:O.

It is good that you can visualize your own character, even within the confines of the game. I'm sure that's what Bioware intended; for players to make up their own backgrounds for Shepard outside of the canon they provide. However, that does not make a character. That is not who Shepard is, as a character. All of what s/he is (as far as literary interpretation of character goes) is in the dialogue and interaction s/he goes through in the game. Just because the characterization links are so porous in Shepard that you can fill in whatever you deem fit from you imagination does not make it a good character.

That's an inherent attribute of games with custom main characters: the player does most of the characterization.

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Then again, maybe you've just been listening to Meer's voice for too long. I'll agree that he doesn't add a lot to the character, and I find male Shepard to be flat and characterless sometimes. Here, again, we go back to learning about a character through their inflection. If someone sounds angry or curious when asking a question, it is very different than if they sound like they don't care at all. In a lot of circumstances, Hale's voice reveals something about the character of Shepard that Meer's voice does not imply. To me, that means that that particular character quality is posessed by Female Shepard, but not male Shepard. It makes their characters distinct, in the same way the character of Renegade Shepard is distinct from Paragon Shepard.

I have no preference of VA. Don't be so quick to assume I only play maleShep. I can accept your points about inflection though. It does add character. I've already admitted that Shepard does have some inherently, albeit paper-thin.

Modifié par MGIII, 28 avril 2011 - 02:06 .

[NanQuan]

I didn't pick up mass effect (despite all of it's acclaim and high ratings) until I was told that you got to customize your character and could pick your gender. As a female gamer, that was a huge draw - to be represented in a game.  I agree that marketing this fact could bring in new gamers.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Rurik_Niall wrote...

Again this may just be due to the fact that I don't view the world in masculine and feminine terms, but I do agree with your analysis of Shepard as a character, and while I may not agree that the ability to play as a male or female is something that is more than just a passing thought I do agree that the role playing aspects could stand to be played up a bit more in the advertising. But then on the other hand simply having Bioware displayed anywhere in the advertisement is enough to tell any true gamer that the game will possess plenty of role playing, a great story, and memorable characters in much the same way that seeing Joss Whedon listed in the credits ensures that you can expect a good quality show.

Your definition of a "true gamer" here is very limiting. It implies that anyone who is new to gaming doesn't count. I mean, I know that that's not what you're trying to say, but that's how it comes out. 

Some players of games have mostly played console games. I was one of those people for many years. Because of that, I didn't have any real experience with Bioware. They hadn't built any brand recognition with me. Square had, ATLUS had, Nintendo had. That was it, when I was a teenager. That was all I knew. So that was what I bought. I got a pile of JRPGs here almost as tall as me.

Sure, anyone who is a hardcore gamer probably has some loose idea of what Bioware is up to. But marketing doesn't have to focus on anyone who is automatically going to buy all games that have the name Bioware on them. For those people, all they have to convey is "Hey we made a new game and it is available for pre-order." They don't have to tell them aything else. This thread is about reaching all the gamers who don't automatically associate the Bioware name with "must purchase now!" If you're a girl who has only ever gamed on Playstation products, you may not have much experience with Bioware. So you can't just see the name and say "Oh hey, RPG elements!"

I also want to make it clear that we aren't saying that playing as a female main character is the chief thing that determines whether or not we purchase a game. We are saying that, when we see marketing for a game, and we're trying to figure out what kind of game it is, the fact that they bothered to put a female main character on the cover is a clue that the devs may care what we think. As a dude, pretty much every game is designed by developers who care about you, and who care if you like the game. As a girl, a lot of games are obviously not designed that way. Some of them are fun anyway, but a game designed by devs who care about what girls and guys BOTH think is likely to be much better than one designed by devs who think girls are worthless and irrelevant. The female character isn't the only way to show that you care, but it's an easy one.

Mass Effect is a game designed by devs who care about both guys and girls. I just wish more girls knew that.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 28 avril 2011 - 02:20 .

[ciaweth]

What in the name of poopsplat is a "true gamer," really? Are there "false gamers"? Do tell, because it really seems like a version of No True Scotsman.

[MGIII]

ciaweth wrote...

What in the name of poopsplat is a "true gamer," really? Are there "false gamers"? Do tell, because it really seems like a version of No True Scotsman.

I'm pretty sure s/he meant a "true gamer" to be one that takes video-gaming as a hobby, follows the notable games, knows the culture, etc. as opposed to a "fasle gamer" that plays Angry Birds every so often on their phone and claims to love Tetris, despite not knowing what an L-Block is.

[Rurik_Niall]

See, this is where the difficulty for me lies, since I don't think masculine/feminine I can't really see a difference one way or another. I don't look at something and think about whether it's targeting males, females, both, or neither, I just think "Does this look interesting?" And my sister is much the same way. I'm honestly against marketing things to any gender, male or female, I believe everything should simply be marketed to everyone and let them decide for themselves if they like it. And on the other side consumers shouldn't look at something and worry if it's marketed to them or not, they should just look at it and judge it on its own merits.

MGIII wrote...

I'm pretty sure s/he meant a "true gamer"
to be one that takes video-gaming as a hobby, follows the notable games,
knows the culture, etc. as opposed to a "fasle gamer" that plays Angry
Birds every so often on their phone and claims to love Tetris, despite
not knowing what an L-Block is.

Precisely. Someone with just a passing interest is a player, someone who follows the industry is a gamer, in much the same way that a true metalhead could give you a long list of metal bands, both obscure and main stream, that are worth listening to, while someone like me is simply a fan.

Modifié par Rurik_Niall, 28 avril 2011 - 02:39 .

[InvincibleHero]

Yeah I have stated many times that they should use both. However, they chose to go the route of iconic Shepard and have spent likely millions to create that brand. It is unlikely to change in the 8th inning of the ME trilogy.

[JamieCOTC]

Like it or not Sheploo is BW's wh*re and that's the way it's going to stay. I'm fine w/ that.

[ciaweth]

Nah. Everyone has their own definitions of "true gamer." You can't throw me with your reference to casual games--good that you used Angry Birds instead of Farmville as your example, though.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

MGIII wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

See, here we clearly see the difference between how male gamers percieve character and how females may percieve it. It's quite important. I said that I consider her to be the best female character of all time... meaning that such is my opinion. And no, the romance lines don't factor into my assessment at all, though the fact that you assume they do is... interesting.

No, it's a difference between how you percieve the character and what Bioware actually wrote into the game.

I had to assume you were referring to romance dialogue because that is the only difference (characterization-wise) between maleShep and femShep. Not for whatever vague notion you're implying.

Did you not read the section in my post about how the inflection in a piece of dialogue can influence how the character is perceived? Let me give you a simpler, more easily understandable example. Let's say Adam West says the line "We've got to stop the Joker. If his plan comes to fruition, it would be a disaster." Now imagine that Christian Bale says that same line. Are Christian Bale's Batman and Adam West's Batman identical? If you heard the audio files of both actors delivering that line, would you draw the same conclusions about the character? I'd say no. Even from the inflection of a single line, I could tell that one of those characters is a jovial subject of fun, and one is dark and intense.

The difference in characterization between Meer and Hale is less, but it is still substantial.

All of what s/he is (as far as literary interpretation of character goes) is in the dialogue and interaction s/he goes through in the game. Just because the characterization links are so porous in Shepard that you can fill in whatever you deem fit from you imagination does not make it a good character.

That's an inherent attribute of games with custom main characters: the player does most of the characterization.

I'm not just talking about fictions I develop beyond my character's actions and interactions with others. I'm talking about those interactions. While I might later come up with ideas about what motivated those actions, that's not what I'm talking about here.

Let's take Garrus's loyalty mission as an example. Now, in this story, Shepard agrees to help a friend get revenge. She has a conversation with him about the purposes and dangers of revenge, but she decides to go along with what he decides. As they investigate further, she watches him shoot a man in cold blood. Garrus just wounded the man, but she doesn't like what she's seeing. So when it comes down to it, she stands in the line of fire and prevents her friend from getting revenge.

That's a damn powerful story with a damn powerful character. And what's more, it's all literally in game. I've described nothing there that is not conveyed in game by either the actual events that occur, or by emotions conveyed in Hale's voice during the dialogue.

Now, you can tell that story a dozen different ways, depending on each choice you make. Each series of choices reveals a new character. Note I say reveals, not creates.

Imagine it this way: you read a story. In this story, a detective solves a mystery for a young lady, and falls in love. You read another story. In story number two, a detective solves a mystery for a young lady but is entirely unmoved by her charms, and returns to his bachelor life, never giving her a second thought. Both of these stories could contain a good, well-written character. The fact that you choose which story to read does not make either of the individual stories less well-developed.

I can accept your points about inflection though. It does add character. I've already admitted that Shepard does have some inherently, albeit paper-thin.

What would be required for a character to be thicker?

[Lord Atlia]

@Nyoka more than likely it comes down to differences in tastes, female gamers are more likely to play game type A and male gamers play game type B, there are always outlying exceptions.

Really marketing doesn't have the resources to market both. As others have said they will more than likely confuse more people than enlighten them, viewers might think that you change characters throughout the game and so forth. As for marketing the concept of creating a character, not all players really care about creating a character. I would love to see the percentage of people who just went with default Shepard.

[Rurik_Niall]

Lord Atlia wrote...

@Nyoka more than likely it comes down to differences in tastes, female gamers are more likely to play game type A and male gamers play game type B, there are always outlying exceptions.

Really marketing doesn't have the resources to market both. As others have said they will more than likely confuse more people than enlighten them, viewers might think that you change characters throughout the game and so forth. As for marketing the concept of creating a character, not all players really care about creating a character. I would love to see the percentage of people who just went with default Shepard.

I go with male default appearance simply because A: female can't romance Tali, B: all of the custom Shepard bases are hideous, and C: it's the only male face you can put together that really matches the voice actor. If you could customise the default male head and the customisation feature were more advanced then it would be another matter. I do enjoy customisation, but unless it's an MMO or something like the Sims a lack of customisation is hardly a deal breaker for me.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Rurik_Niall wrote...

See, this is where the difficulty for me lies, since I don't think masculine/feminine I can't really see a difference one way or another. I don't look at something and think about whether it's targeting males, females, both, or neither, I just think "Does this look interesting?" And my sister is much the same way. I'm honestly against marketing things to any gender, male or female, I believe everything should simply be marketed to everyone and let them decide for themselves if they like it. And on the other side consumers shouldn't look at something and worry if it's marketed to them or not, they should just look at it and judge it on its own merits.

MGIII wrote...

I'm pretty sure s/he meant a "true gamer"
to be one that takes video-gaming as a hobby, follows the notable games,
knows the culture, etc. as opposed to a "fasle gamer" that plays Angry
Birds every so often on their phone and claims to love Tetris, despite
not knowing what an L-Block is.

Precisely. Someone with just a passing interest is a player, someone who follows the industry is a gamer, in much the same way that a true metalhead could give you a long list of metal bands, both obscure and main stream, that are worth listening to, while someone like me is simply a fan.

If someone has played hundreds of JRPGs, translating some from the original Japanese, but has never owned a PC or an XBox, is that person not a true gamer? 

If someone collects Commodore 64 games, curates a museum of games produced prior to 1990, but doesn't follow current trends, are they not a true gamer?

I know both of these people. They've both never played a Bioware RPG. Both have lives and careers devoted to gaming. Their main hobbies are all gaming related. They are true gamers. It's easily possible to live in the gaming world and yet not be familiar with the ins-and-outs of every company. It's even truer if you are young, and are just getting into gaming.

To quote Kipling:

Then I stripped them, scalp from skull, and my hunting-dogs fed full,
And their teeth I threaded neatly on a thong;
And I wiped my mouth and said, "It is well that they are dead,
For I know my work is right and theirs was wrong."

But my Totem saw the shame; from his ridgepole-shrine he came,
And he told me in a vision of the night:
"There are nine and sixty ways of constructing tribal lays,
And every single one of them is right!"

There are nine and sixty ways of being a gamer. And every single one of them is right.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 28 avril 2011 - 03:05 .

[Rurik_Niall]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...


So to you, if someone who has played hundreds of JRPGs, translating some from the original Japanese, but they have never owned a PC or an XBox, that person is not a true gamer? 

If someone collects Commodore 64 games, and curates a museum of games produced prior to 1990, but doesn't follow current trends, are they not a true gamer?

I know both of these people. They've both never played a Bioware RPG. Both have lives and careers devoted to gaming. Their main hobbies are all gaming related. They are true gamers. It's easily possible to live in the gaming world and yet not be familiar with the ins-and-outs of every company. It's even truer if you are young, and are just getting into gaming.

To quote Kipling:

Then I stripped them, scalp from skull, and my hunting-dogs fed full,
And their teeth I threaded neatly on a thong;
And I wiped my mouth and said, "It is well that they are dead,
For I know my work is right and theirs was wrong."

But my Totem saw the shame; from his ridgepole-shrine he came,
And he told me in a vision of the night:
"There are nine and sixty ways of constructing tribal lays,
And every single one of them is right!"

There are nine and sixty ways of being a gamer. And every single one of them is right.

The former is obviously not a simple passing interest, now are they? I would definitely call them a gamer. The latter depends, does he actually play any of those games? If not I would call him a collector, not a gamer. A gamer has to actually play games, not just look at them and talk about how pretty they are.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Yes he plays the games. The point that I am making is that there is no hard-and-fast definition of a true gamer. Say we have two eight-year-olds. They both own a DS and Pokemon. That is the only game they play right now. One of those kids is a girl, one is a boy.

By your argument, neither one is a "true gamer." I'm saying that does not matter.

Let's jump foreword in time four years. Now they're 12. They both own about 10 DS games, and play some browser games on their computer. Neither owns a full console yet. Are they true gamers yet? I say who cares.

Now jump another four years. They're both 16. They just got an Xbox 360 for their birthday, and are walking into a Gamestop to buy their first real console game. By now they've both been gaming for eight whole years. Are they not true gamers? Should bioware not care about them?

If they are true gamers, when did they become true gamers? I say everyone who plays a game is a gamer, and has the potential to become a true fan. Whether or not they are encouraged or discouraged in this endeavor determines their eventual fate. But true gamer is a useless concept.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 28 avril 2011 - 03:15 .

[ciaweth]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...


To quote Kipling:

Then I stripped them, scalp from skull, and my hunting-dogs fed full,
And their teeth I threaded neatly on a thong;
And I wiped my mouth and said, "It is well that they are dead,
For I know my work is right and theirs was wrong."

But my Totem saw the shame; from his ridgepole-shrine he came,
And he told me in a vision of the night:
"There are nine and sixty ways of constructing tribal lays,
And every single one of them is right!"

There are nine and sixty ways of being a gamer. And every single one of them is right.

Word.

[InvincibleHero]

Oh no the argument about true gamers. It is valid to ask how they arrived at their numbers. if the 40% includes grandmas playing online bingo and card games then that 40% number is meaningless. Likewise if most of the women are segregated to The Sims and MMOs then most every other game has a largely male dominant and target audience. Just having a quote of 60% of all gamers and 40% female doesn't do much on its own. I know when I look at console and PC sections at Best Buy, Target, etc if there is a girl she is likely a girlfriend and mostly all guys. I rarely see an unaccompanied female or groups of females perusing the sections (I wish I would) sigh). Sure there could be many areas where female gamers are of greater density but not in my neck of the woods.

[MGIII]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

I'm not just talking about fictions I develop beyond my character's actions and interactions with others. I'm talking about those interactions. While I might later come up with ideas about what motivated those actions, that's not what I'm talking about here.

This^, directly contradicts this:

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

To me, and to most of the posters in the FemShep thread, Shepard is an
incredibly deep character. What kind of character she is comes out in
our play. Jane is a model soldier, a true hero, and a white knight. A
true diplomat among the stars, and a hero that all young girls can look
up to. Crow is a sociopath. The fact that both these characters exist in
the same game, waiting to be discovered, is marvelous. It's something
I haven't felt in any other game, not even other Bioware games, not even
DA:O.

Edit: Actually, I see where you're going with this. Refer to my reply to the next quote.

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Let's take Garrus's loyalty mission as an example. Now, in this story, Shepard agrees to help a friend get revenge. She has a conversation with him about the purposes and dangers of revenge, but she decides to go along with what he decides. As they investigate further, she watches him shoot a man in cold blood. Garrus just wounded the man, but she doesn't like what she's seeing. So when it comes down to it, she stands in the line of fire and prevents her friend from getting revenge.

That's a damn powerful story with a damn powerful character. And what's more, it's all literally in game. I've described nothing there that is not conveyed in game by either the actual events that occur, or by emotions conveyed in Hale's voice during the dialogue.

Now, you can tell that story a dozen different ways, depending on each choice you make. Each series of choices reveals a new character. Note I say reveals, not creates.

It does not reveal a new character. As fabulous of dialogue as Bioware can write, they don't come up with character-defining moments every mission. In fact, because the characterization of Shepard can only be neutral (the go along with it, default option), giving grandma a sponge bath nice, or kicking baby puppies mean, there is no room for growth or conflict. S/he just is.

This very feature handicaps the storytelling somewhat, because you have instances where Shepard can sweet talk his way out of mexican standoffs and coerce entire alien civilizations to a particiular line of thinking, and then he turns around and comes off no more intelligent than a baboon against the Council.

There are some successes within this system, and by proxy, Shepard's character, but they alone cannot enrich what is essentially a blank slate.

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Imagine it this way: you read a story. In this story, a detective solves a mystery for a young lady, and falls in love. You read another story. In story number two, a detective solves a mystery for a young lady but is entirely unmoved by her charms, and returns to his bachelor life, never giving her a second thought. Both of these stories could contain a good, well-written character. The fact that you choose which story to read does not make either of the individual stories less well-developed.

Never said it didn't. Bioware's story-telling is not in question here. And Bioware has done well to make a cast of mostly aliens endearing enough for people to relate to each one (with cliche stock issues mostly, but that's beside the point).

However, you never get a feel for who Shepard really is. The character never faces any personal crisis. Shepard dies, makes a few quips here and there about it, and never speaks of it again. It may as well not even happened. Prime example to explore Shepard and flesh him/her out never realized. Maybe in ME3.

Shepard can be compassionate and say "all the right things," but it comes off as corny because there is no baseline set. Paragon options don't always give off the same vibe. Same with Renegade. It's usually nothing more than "win the convo" buttons that don't add character, they just achieve a goal. The interrupts are generally more character building though.

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

What would be required for a character to be thicker?

Consistency, growth, learning, personal trials, issues, faults, redemption, struggle, motivation (outside of "I gotta save the universe, hurr"), character-defining moments, dynamics with other characters, reaction to setting, tone as a character and how it conflicts/harmonizes with surroundings, blahblahblah.

I didn't reply to your first paragraph featuring Adam West, because I addressed VA already.

Modifié par MGIII, 28 avril 2011 - 03:25 .

[Rurik_Niall]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Yes he plays the games. The point that I am making is that there is no hard-and-fast definition of a true gamer. Say we have two eight-year-olds. They both own a DS and Pokemon. That is the only game they play right now. One of those kids is a girl, one is a boy.

By your argument, neither one is a "true gamer." I'm saying that does not matter.

Let's jump foreword in time four years. Now they're 12. They both own about 10 DS games, and play some browser games on their computer. Neither owns a full console yet. Are they true gamers yet? I say who cares.

Now jump another four years. They're both 16. They just got an Xbox 360 for their birthday, and are walking into a Gamestop to buy their first real console game. By now they've both been gaming for eight whole years. Are they not true gamers? Should bioware not care about them?

If they are true gamers, when did they become true gamers? I say everyone who plays a game is a gamer, and has the potential to become a true fan. Whether or not they are encouraged or discouraged in this endeavor determines their eventual fate. But true gamer is a useless concept.

They become true gamers when their interest is more than a passing one, the title of gamer requires passion, without that you're merely a player.

[ciaweth]

InvincibleHero wrote...

Oh no the argument about true gamers. It is valid to ask how they arrived at their numbers. if the 40% includes grandmas playing online bingo and card games then that 40% number is meaningless. Likewise if most of the women are segregated to The Sims and MMOs then most every other game has a largely male dominant and target audience. Just having a quote of 60% of all gamers and 40% female doesn't do much on its own. I know when I look at console and PC sections at Best Buy, Target, etc if there is a girl she is likely a girlfriend and mostly all guys. I rarely see an unaccompanied female or groups of females perusing the sections (I wish I would) sigh). Sure there could be many areas where female gamers are of greater density but not in my neck of the woods.

Well, as people have repeatedly noted above, one person's personal experience does not an accurate perception make.  However, I fit most definitions of "true gamer" and I'm also female, and I can tell you that I stay the hell away from the game sections of Target and Best Buy.  I cannot count the number of times I've had salesbros actually try to correct me when they see what games I'm buying.

"Ohh, I don't think you'll like that..."
"Did you know there's a game called Hello Kitty Online?"
"Is that for your brother or your boyfriend?"
"You're wearing an N7 hoodie...do you even know what game that's from?"
"Are you sure that's what you want?  It's got shooting in it..."

I order from Amazon now.

[ciaweth]

Rurik_Niall wrote...


They become true gamers when their interest is more than a passing one, the title of gamer requires passion, without that you're merely a player.

You describe it as though it's like a second form of puberty.  "When the changes come, you'll know."  You are not the final arbitor on who is a gamer and who is not.  You just aren't. 

A gamer is someone who regularly plays and enjoys games.  It's not some 'nad-waving contest to see who has more "passion," however you define that.  It's not a title you have to earn.