324 réponses à ce sujet

[jellobell]

ciaweth wrote...

"Ohh, I don't think you'll like that..."
"Did you know there's a game called Hello Kitty Online?"
"Is that for your brother or your boyfriend?"
"You're wearing an N7 hoodie...do you even know what game that's from?"
"Are you sure that's what you want?  It's got shooting in it..."

I order from Amazon now.

 I got this  when I went to pick up my pre-ordered ME2 collector's edition.

"Gift wrap costs extra" 

[MGIII]

Oh my. This was such an entertaining thread before we got into this "true gamer" fiasco.

You all are getting way too hung up on words. Obviously Rurik_Niall is not implying that people that play casual games are inferior to the "hardcore elite, lulz!" There are different sections, categories, what-have-you of people within the greater gaming community.

Particularly, one that relegates themselves to playing Solitaire or somesuch every now and again, but doesn't take the time to keep up with new releases on consoles, invest in different game communities, or understand the culture at all. Sure, they play a game, but would not consider gaming a hobby. Much like someone may read a pop hit book or two, but not take it for a hobby outside of that.

Not that they aren't a "True gamer," per se, but I understood what s/he was implying: they are not target consumers of games like Mass Effect.

And maybe never will be, and that's okay too. Different strokes for different folks.

Modifié par MGIII, 28 avril 2011 - 03:36 .

[CulturalGeekGirl]

MGIII wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

I'm not just talking about fictions I develop beyond my character's actions and interactions with others. I'm talking about those interactions. While I might later come up with ideas about what motivated those actions, that's not what I'm talking about here.

This^, directly contradicts this:

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

To me, and to most of the posters in the FemShep thread, Shepard is an
incredibly deep character. What kind of character she is comes out in
our play. Jane is a model soldier, a true hero, and a white knight. A
true diplomat among the stars, and a hero that all young girls can look
up to. Crow is a sociopath. The fact that both these characters exist in
the same game, waiting to be discovered, is marvelous. It's something
I haven't felt in any other game, not even other Bioware games, not even
DA:O.

No, it doesn't contradict that. They can both be true, without contradiction.

If I read a story with Spiderman in it, and I think "man, I really like how Spiderman manages to balance lighthearted quips with serious emotional problems." I am appreciating his character.

If I read another story where Spiderman is a zombie who eats people, he can still be a great character, even if this version of the character is entirely different than the one in the first story.

I can experience a story where Jane Shepard is a nice lady who talks Mercs into walking away without getting themselves killed. I can also experience a story where Crow Shepard is a mean lady who pushes people out of windows. I like Spiderman because sometimes he is a zombie and sometimes he is a nice quippy guy. I like Shepard because sometimes she is a kindhearted lady and sometimes she is crazy.

It does not reveal a new character. As fabulous of dialogue as Bioware can write, they don't come up with character-defining moments every mission. In fact, because the characterization of Shepard can only be neutral (the go along with it, default option), giving grandma a sponge bath nice, or kicking baby puppies mean, there is no room for growth or conflict. S/he just is.

This is where we simply cannot agree. If you think that a person who steps in front of an assassin's bullet is no different than one who allows that person to be killed, then we must agree to disagree about what defines a character. If you believe that someone who attempts to understand other cultures is no different from someone who believes their culture is inherently superior, then we have to agree to disagree. If you believe someone who would sell another sentient organism is no different from someone who would try to communicate with it, then we will have to agree to disagree.

In literature, we can watch Sherlock Holmes have a conversation with a random citizen. We can then see Watson continue the conversation. What they say is just as important as what they do. I'm saying there is a Holmes and a Watson in every Shepard, a Dirty Harry and a Captain Picard, and that there are a thousand characters with ever more lovely shades of grey.

If you don't see it, that's fine. That's why you don't have the job of explaining why Mass Effect is awesome to girls.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 28 avril 2011 - 03:38 .

[Fiery Phoenix]

ciaweth wrote...

Well, as people have repeatedly noted above, one person's personal experience does not an accurate perception make.  However, I fit most definitions of "true gamer" and I'm also female, and I can tell you that I stay the hell away from the game sections of Target and Best Buy.  I cannot count the number of times I've had salesbros actually try to correct me when they see what games I'm buying.

"Ohh, I don't think you'll like that..."
"Did you know there's a game called Hello Kitty Online?"
"Is that for your brother or your boyfriend?"
"You're wearing an N7 hoodie...do you even know what game that's from?"
"Are you sure that's what you want?  It's got shooting in it..."

I order from Amazon now.

Sorry, Cia. That must be horrible on you.

[Rurik_Niall]

MGIII wrote...

Oh my. This was such an entertaining thread before we got into this "true gamer" fiasco.

You all are getting way too hung up on words. Obviously Rurik_Niall is not implying that people that play casual games are inferior to the "hardcore elite, lulz!" There are different sections, categories, what-have-you of people within the greater gaming community.

Particularly, one that relegates themselves to playing Solitaire or somesuch every now and again, but doesn't take the time to keep up with new releases on consoles, invest in different game communities, or understand the culture at all. Sure, they play a game, but would not consider gaming a hobby. Much like someone may read a pop hit book or two, but not take it for a hobby outside of that.

Not that they aren't a "True gamer," per se, but I understood what s/he was implying: they are not target consumers of games like Mass Effect.

And maybe never will be, and that's okay too. Different strokes for different folks.

Precisely. Gamers have passion, be it for a specific genre, the craft in general, or what have you. A player lacks that passion, they may enjoy games well enough, but they don't have that gleam in their eye when they hear their favourite game is getting a sequel. A true gamer has a passion for the industry in general, this is used in the same sense as a true neutral character in D&D, other gamers are niche gamers, someone who has a passion for certain types of games. Someone who's into Japanese menu based strategy games like Final Fantasy and Chronotrigger, or someone into RPG's are gamers that fit their respective niches.

[ciaweth]

Fiery Phoenix wrote...

ciaweth wrote...

Well, as people have repeatedly noted above, one person's personal experience does not an accurate perception make.  However, I fit most definitions of "true gamer" and I'm also female, and I can tell you that I stay the hell away from the game sections of Target and Best Buy.  I cannot count the number of times I've had salesbros actually try to correct me when they see what games I'm buying.

"Ohh, I don't think you'll like that..."
"Did you know there's a game called Hello Kitty Online?"
"Is that for your brother or your boyfriend?"
"You're wearing an N7 hoodie...do you even know what game that's from?"
"Are you sure that's what you want?  It's got shooting in it..."

I order from Amazon now.

Sorry, Cia. That must be horrible on you.

Heh, I yet live.    Just an example of how I redirect my cash to businesses that don't treat me like an outsider, an anomaly, or a nitwit.

[Shimmer_Gloom]

@ciaweth: this happens all the time and its the same darn shenanigans that scare many girls away from comic shops. Which is what is KILLING comics right now. If the people that make these amazing products keep marketing to a specific base of consumers without branching out they will eventually wear out their consumer base.

Bioware/EA knows this. Look how DA2 was marketed? It gave us action. Showed Hawke being a bamf to draw in the action gamers BUT it made it clear that there were three distinct different classes to play. It is clear in the marketing that you are getting not only an RPG, but an action RPG. They want to get as many different kinds of gamers to play the game as possible.

This needs to happen for Mass Effect. Marketing needs to better reflect what the game actually is. And a massive (lol) part of the draw for many gamers is Fem!shep. Not because she is better. But becuase she is THE SAME. Having an action hero in a game rendered with the same care and attention as a male is a rarity. EA is sitting on a lost opportunity here imo.

And I think the 'confusion' can be easily mitigated.

[MGIII]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

 I like Shepard because sometimes she is a kindhearted lady and sometimes she is crazy.

With no rhyme or reason, on the whim of the player. These examples have no context, no friction or weight to it. When Shepard saves Sidonis' life, we can infer what? That Shep is trying to save Garrus' conscience, mostly. Because they're good pals. And that's what pals do, apparently, which is stand in-between your sniper friend's revenge kill. Yet it can also be argued that Garrus would have been better off killing Sidonis and exacting his revenge. But none of this is ever expanded upon, it's left up to the player to quarrel with the ramifications him or herself while gamewise, you get more calibration talk, and maybe some Turian lovin' if your Shep is voiced by Jennifer Hale.

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

This is where we simply cannot agree. If you think that a person who steps in front of an assassin's bullet is no different than one who allows that person to be killed, then we must agree to disagree about what defines a character. If you believe that someone who attempts to understand other cultures is no different from someone who believes their culture is inherently superior, then we have to agree to disagree. If you believe someone who would sell another sentient organism is no different from someone who would try to communicate with it, then we will have to agree to disagree.

The actions of course are different, and sometimes the end result is different too. The context of the character rarely changes. Doing something, saying something, very very rarely precludes you from further actions down the road. There is no consistency within the character, no arcs, just decisions and dialogue choice.

Which, again, is to be expected considering the system and style of story-telling.

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

In literature, we can watch Sherlock Holmes have a conversation with a random citizen. We can then see Watson continue the conversation. What they say is just as important as what they do. I'm saying there is a Holmes and a Watson in every Shepard, a Dirty Harry and a Captain Picard, and that there are a thousand characters with ever more lovely shades of grey.

If you don't see it, that's fine. That's why you don't have the job of explaining why Mass Effect is awesome to girls.

If you want to see a well-written RPG female that epitomizes grey, look up Kreia from KotOR2. Arguably the best written video-game character of all time.

Y'know, to show you where I stand.

Modifié par MGIII, 28 avril 2011 - 03:56 .

[Shimmer_Gloom]

@Nial: I think you kind of lost your way when you mentioned Joss Whedon. Joss Whedon has a hardcore fan base (like Bioware) but he doesn't always deliver the massive hits when it comes to movies and TV. So while you, a "true Whedon fan" will run out and buy anything with his name on it, 80% of the consumers wont even know he exists.

The same goes for Bioware. Many gamers are 'casual gamers' or just don't care enough to pay attention to who makes their games. And most honestly couldn't give a darn. Does that make them less of a gamer? Does that devalue their experiences? No. Its just different than your exerience.

Most gamers, and the people that EA needs to draw in to sustain itself have never heard of Bioware. Bioware has a great reputation, but it just doesn't carry over to the vast majority of players. Thus, seeing the name 'Bioware' on a trailer won't mean jack to them. Marketing can't relay solely on it. Sadly.

[Rurik_Niall]

I'm going to assume you mean KotOR 2 with TSL:Restored Content Mod because without that I don't think you can really consider anything in that game particularly well written.

[MGIII]

Shimmer_Gloom wrote...

@Nial: I think you kind of lost your way when you mentioned Joss Whedon. Joss Whedon has a hardcore fan base (like Bioware) but he doesn't always deliver the massive hits when it comes to movies and TV. So while you, a "true Whedon fan" will run out and buy anything with his name on it, 80% of the consumers wont even know he exists.

The same goes for Bioware. Many gamers are 'casual gamers' or just don't care enough to pay attention to who makes their games. And most honestly couldn't give a darn. Does that make them less of a gamer? Does that devalue their experiences? No. Its just different than your exerience.

Most gamers, and the people that EA needs to draw in to sustain itself have never heard of Bioware. Bioware has a great reputation, but it just doesn't carry over to the vast majority of players. Thus, seeing the name 'Bioware' on a trailer won't mean jack to them. Marketing can't relay solely on it. Sadly.

If you go see all the blockbuster hits, but don't see any niche films, or follow the Oscars, or know how the industry works, you would be a casual movie fan. You're just there for the entertainment. You don't care beyond that. The movie buff immerses themselves in the culture and industry.

Same thing here with "casual" gamers and "true gamers".

Rurik_Niall wrote...

I'm going to assume you mean KotOR 2 with TSL:Restored Content Mod because without that I don't think you can really consider anything in that game particularly well written.

Most of it is well written. The game just doesn't have a proper ending. And the influence system is still better
than most light/dark systems found in most RPGs nowadays, because it actually gave weight to the decisions you made and how it affected your active party members, rather than some arbitrary score that makes you capable of chosing the odd charm option to skip a fight or several.

Modifié par MGIII, 28 avril 2011 - 04:03 .

[Shimmer_Gloom]

@MGIII: I love Obsidian's Kreia. She was awesome. And I'd like to think that she had an impact Bioware when they made Flemeth.

But I'm kind of lost as to what your point is. How does this connect back to marketing and drawing females/non-action gamers in?

Also, I think you may be judging a video game the same way you would a movie or book. And with those standards of course a game or a game character will fail, because a game isn't about the 'story' so much as the 'experience.' It has wholly different criteria.

[100k]

Speaking of marketing strategies

Do you guys think ME3 should have an overall theme/feel to it? This was something that Halo 3, Gears 3, and even MGS4 used.

With Halo, the theme was pretty sad and gloomy. Dark and emotional. For almost all of the trailers, an overall feeling of desperate struggle and hopelessness was evoked.

With MGS4, the theme was (in typical Kojima style) very melodramatic, long and elaborate, etc.

With Gears 3, the theme is currently the idea of "brothers to the end".

The thing that they shared was that they all emphasized a series coming to its end.

So, do you think Mass Effect 3 should have something like this? What do you think it should be about? Family? Hopelessly outnumbered? Hope?

[100k]

Shimmer_Gloom wrote...
@MGIII: I love Obsidian's Kreia. She was awesome. And I'd like to think that she had an impact Bioware when they made Flemeth.

IMHO, Kreia has the best dialogues in video game history. I hope Bioware/Obsidian returns to that level of writing.

[Shimmer_Gloom]

"Same thing here with "casual" gamers and "true gamers". "

And I say distinguishing between the two is utter bollocks. There are just gamers. Consumers. People.

[ciaweth]

100k wrote...

Speaking of marketing strategies

Do you guys think ME3 should have an overall theme/feel to it? This was something that Halo 3, Gears 3, and even MGS4 used.

With Halo, the theme was pretty sad and gloomy. Dark and emotional. For almost all of the trailers, an overall feeling of desperate struggle and hopelessness was evoked.

With MGS4, the theme was (in typical Kojima style) very melodramatic, long and elaborate, etc.

With Gears 3, the theme is currently the idea of "brothers to the end".

The thing that they shared was that they all emphasized a series coming to its end.

So, do you think Mass Effect 3 should have something like this? What do you think it should be about? Family? Hopelessly outnumbered? Hope?

Unicorns and rainbows.

But seriously, I think in an old interview, they said it was going to be bleak but also humorous.

[Leonia]

Shimmer_Gloom wrote...

"Same thing here with "casual" gamers and "true gamers". "

And I say distinguishing between the two is utter bollocks. There are just gamers. Consumers. People.

This post.. I like it a lot. Every gamer is unique, whether he or she prefers RPGs or shooters or whatever. Labelling only confuses things, we're all gamers here. We all want to enjoy ME.

I'd love to see FemShep get more attention, really, I would. I just doubt it is going to happen and it's a real shame. Especially after how Lady Hawke got promoted with DA2 (though that could have been way better too).

[MGIII]

Shimmer_Gloom wrote...

@MGIII: I love Obsidian's Kreia. She was awesome. And I'd like to think that she had an impact Bioware when they made Flemeth.

But I'm kind of lost as to what your point is. How does this connect back to marketing and drawing females/non-action gamers in?

Also, I think you may be judging a video game the same way you would a movie or book. And with those standards of course a game or a game character will fail, because a game isn't about the 'story' so much as the 'experience.' It has wholly different criteria.

Our debate kind went into the direction of debating the merits of Shepard as a character ever since I disagreed with your notion that "she's the best written female in videogames."

As far as the female/marketing stuff goes, I addressed it a page or so back, you just never responded to it.

And I always judge game characters on those merits. You "experience" game characters exactly as much as you experience them in other mediums. Games only stand apart within their game constructs, not their story ones. The latter of which we are discussing.

I can analyze the cast of Mass Effect like I can the cast of any movie or book, and not be illogical for it.

Modifié par MGIII, 28 avril 2011 - 04:09 .

[Rurik_Niall]

100k wrote...

Speaking of marketing strategies

Do you guys think ME3 should have an overall theme/feel to it? This was something that Halo 3, Gears 3, and even MGS4 used.

With Halo, the theme was pretty sad and gloomy. Dark and emotional. For almost all of the trailers, an overall feeling of desperate struggle and hopelessness was evoked.

With MGS4, the theme was (in typical Kojima style) very melodramatic, long and elaborate, etc.

With Gears 3, the theme is currently the idea of "brothers to the end".

The thing that they shared was that they all emphasized a series coming to its end.

So, do you think Mass Effect 3 should have something like this? What do you think it should be about? Family? Hopelessly outnumbered? Hope?

I would go with defiance. Outclassed and outgunned by the Reapers, we'll probably lose but I'll be damned if I'm not going to drag as many of those cybernetic sons of ****es with me on the way to hell.

[Rurik_Niall]

leonia42 wrote...

This post.. I like it a lot. Every gamer is unique, whether he or she prefers RPGs or shooters or whatever. Labelling only confuses things, we're all gamers here. We all want to enjoy ME.

I'd love to see FemShep get more attention, really, I would. I just doubt it is going to happen and it's a real shame. Especially after how Lady Hawke got promoted with DA2 (though that could have been way better too).

Yes, we are, we're on a site dedicated to a specific gaming company after all so it's a pretty fair bet. That doesn't make great Auntie Freeze whose interest in video games extends solely to the solitaire game that came with her computer a gamer though.

[MGIII]

Shimmer_Gloom wrote...

And I say distinguishing between the two is utter bollocks. There are just gamers. Consumers. People.

Except no. They're sub-categories, of which studios must appeal to. Bioware is not making this game for the people who play Farmville exclusively, or Angry Birds three times a month and nothing else. Or the mom who bought a Wii for the family to spend time with her kids. They all play games. None of them are Bioware's target demographic.

Which is what Niall was getting at, and explained quite clearly in all of his/her posts. Except you got hung up on a few words and neglected the context of what they were getting across.

Modifié par MGIII, 28 avril 2011 - 04:22 .

[Leonia]

I'm a girl gamer too and I know things seem riduculously unfair but at the end of the day we are a minority demographic for ME and other Bioware games. From a marketting point-of-view, we are no different than any other minority group, other minorities might be the casual Facebook gamers or the Solitaire players. We can't ask for special treatment for ourselves if we aren't going to say "Hey pay attention to those other minor groups too".

I'm sure Bioware isn't be malicious when they make the choice to promote their Sheploo.. they know their female fans exist and they've accomodated us fairly well outside of marketting (giving us equal treatment with romances in the game and customisation of our characters, etc.).

If they had enough resources to appeal to every type of gamer, I'm sure they'd try to do so. But the second they start making the Boy Gamer products and the Girl Gamer products.. people will say "What about the Facebook games, what about mobile phone games, what about this, about that..". They are sticking with their current approach because it is easy and iconic. Everyone knows Sheploo is synonymous with ME. Ideally, they probably shouldn't cater to any one gender over another but this isn't an ideal world is it?

I wish the industry would pay more attention to the ladies but change is never easy  and it doesn't happens over night. We must be patient.

Modifié par leonia42, 28 avril 2011 - 04:27 .

[Shimmer_Gloom]

MGIII wrote...

Shimmer_Gloom wrote...

@MGIII: I love Obsidian's Kreia. She was awesome. And I'd like to think that she had an impact Bioware when they made Flemeth.

But I'm kind of lost as to what your point is. How does this connect back to marketing and drawing females/non-action gamers in?

Also, I think you may be judging a video game the same way you would a movie or book. And with those standards of course a game or a game character will fail, because a game isn't about the 'story' so much as the 'experience.' It has wholly different criteria.

Our debate kind went into the direction of debating the merits of Shepard as a character ever since I disagreed with your notion that "she's the best written female in videogames."

As far as the female/marketing stuff goes, I addressed it a page or so back, you just never responded to it.

And I always judge game characters on those merits. You "experience" game characters exactly as much as you experience them in other mediums. Games only stand apart within their game constructs, not their story ones. The latter of which we are discussing.

I can analyze the cast of Mass Effect like I can the cast of any movie or book, and not be illogical for it.

I'm sorry I didn't adress what you said a couple of pages back.  I must have missed it.  Is trying to keep up.

Now, see what I meant by 'experience' is that you can't exactly hold characters in a video game to make sense and follow a clearly denileated character arch.  You don't passively read what they have done, you 'experience them.'  Which actually makes them pretty naturalistic.  People don't allways follow a set character arc.  Sometimes people are hypocritical or 'out of character' or 'do something just becuase.'

Same with a story in a game.  The more a story makes sense the less agency a player has and as a rule in game design 'more agency is better.'  This is just general maxim and not a set rule as obviously in a game like DA or ME one of the draws is the story and you will have to take away some agency.

What makes Mass Effect amazing (imo) is how well it balences the 'agency' vs 'story' aspects.  And Shepard is a key part of this.

[Shimmer_Gloom]

So, um, my point is, though while Shepard is a character in Mass Effect you can't judge Shepard EXACTLY the same way you can, say Garrus. Because Shep is a PC not an NPC. And further you can't judge an NPC the same way you could a character from a book. You have to take into account game mechanics.

[Rurik_Niall]

Okay, sorry but I have to ask, where does Sheploo come from? I get Fem!Shep but not Sheploo.