324 réponses à ce sujet

[Vez04]

flem1 wrote...

the Vanderloo "iconic" version of Shepard

[Shimmer_Gloom]

MGIII wrote...

Shimmer_Gloom wrote...

And I say distinguishing between the two is utter bollocks. There are just gamers. Consumers. People.

Except no. They're sub-categories, of which studios must appeal to. Bioware is not making this game for the people who play Farmville exclusively, or Angry Birds three times a month and nothing else. Or the mom who bought a Wii for the family to spend time with her kids. They all play games. None of them are Bioware's target demographic.

Which is what Niall was getting at, and explained quite clearly in all of his/her posts. Except you got hung up on a few words and neglected the context of what they were getting across.

Okay.  So.  Why shouldn't Bioware target the people who play farmville exclusively?  Why shouldn't Mass Effect try to appeal to everyone?  Why should it ONLY apeal to the target demographic.

It doesn't.  Many different types of people and gamers are likely to find Mass Effect interesting.  Marketing just has to reach them and show them why.

Now.  Of course you want to target your core first.  But companies like EA survive by bringing in much more than the target demographic.  So.  Again.

Why just apeal to Action gamers?  Or just RPG gamers?  Or just 'true gamers?'  What does EA/Bioware get by doing that?

Modifié par Shimmer_Gloom, 28 avril 2011 - 04:36 .

[MGIII]

Shimmer_Gloom wrote...

What makes Mass Effect amazing (imo) is how well it balences the 'agency' vs 'story' aspects.  And Shepard is a key part of this.

Okay.  So.  Why shouldn't Bioware target the people who play farmville
exclusively?  Why should Mass Effect try to appeal to everyone?  Why
should it ONLY apeal to the target demographic.

It doesn't.  Many
different types of people and gamers are likely to find Mass Effect
interesting.  Marketing just has to reach them and show them why.

Now. 
Of course you want to target your core first.  But companies like EA
survive by bringing in much more than the target demographic.  So. 
Again.

Why just apeal to Action gamers?  Or just RPG gamers?  Or just 'true gamers?'  What does EA/Bioware get by doing that?

I am trying to come to grips with this myself; as much as I criticize the characters, find the combat tedious at best, rue the loading screens, gag at the animations, find the paragon/renegade system unrealized and stale, root out all the stupid inconsistencies, and wish some parts were better written, I cannot stop playing this game. Even with all of that I mentioned, there's something making me love this game, and I can't pinpoint exactly what.

Bioware cannot appeal to those types of people. Because they do not care for the kind of game Mass Effect is. A lot of them don't care for video games at all. The best you can do is market your game as exactly what it is (maybe embellish a bit), and hope people like it.

Modifié par MGIII, 28 avril 2011 - 04:36 .

[Shimmer_Gloom]

MGIII wrote...

Shimmer_Gloom wrote...

What makes Mass Effect amazing (imo) is how well it balences the 'agency' vs 'story' aspects.  And Shepard is a key part of this.

I am trying to come to grips with this myself; as much as I criticize the characters, find the combat tedious at best, rue the loading screens, gag at the animations, find the paragon/renegade system unrealized and stale, root out all the stupid inconsistencies, and wish some parts were better written, I cannot stop playing this game. Even with all of that I mentioned, there's something making me love this game, and I can't pinpoint exactly what.

Of course.  And most people have that problem.  People like what they like and often can't articulate what is going on in their head.  It'll come to you though.  You'll have one of those 'fridge moments' and you say to yourself 'that's why!'

[MGIII]

dbl post

Modifié par MGIII, 28 avril 2011 - 04:45 .

[MGIII]

MGIII wrote...

Rurik_Niall wrote...

Okay, sorry but I have to ask, where does Sheploo come from? I get Fem!Shep but not Sheploo.

Shepard + Mark Vanderloo (the guy default Shepard is modelled from) = Sheploo, or default Shep, maleshep, etc.

Of course.  And most people have that problem.  People like what they
like and often can't articulate what is going on in their head.  It'll
come to you though.  You'll have one of those 'fridge moments' and you
say to yourself 'that's why!'

It's probably the characters' charm, the varied story situations, the various cultures, the epic feel of the game, and the promise that what I do has a significant impact in ME3's storyline, making this all feel personal. On paper, given al lthe negatives I listed, I should hate this game though. Oh well.

[Shimmer_Gloom]

@MGIII: "Because they do not care for the kind of game Mass Effect is. A lot of them don't care for video games at all. The best you can do is market your game as exactly what it is (maybe embellish a bit), and hope people like it."

Oh really? You know what they think? We can't construct our arguments like this. We can't assume that people that had never played a game in their life won't like Mass Effect. We can't assume people like or dislike anything at all.

This is precisely the problem, 'showing them what Mass Effect is.' Is Female Shepard not a part of what Mass Effect is? Are the RPG elements not a part of what Mass Effect is? You have to pick and choose elements of the game to show people and hope something catches their interest.

[Rurik_Niall]

Shimmer_Gloom wrote...

Okay.  So.  Why shouldn't Bioware target the people who play farmville exclusively?  Why shouldn't Mass Effect try to appeal to everyone?  Why should it ONLY apeal to the target demographic.

It doesn't.  Many different types of people and gamers are likely to find Mass Effect interesting.  Marketing just has to reach them and show them why.

Now.  Of course you want to target your core first.  But companies like EA survive by bringing in much more than the target demographic.  So.  Again.

Why just apeal to Action gamers?  Or just RPG gamers?  Or just 'true gamers?'  What does EA/Bioware get by doing that?

A dedicated fanbase that you can count on. Bioware has built their fanbase with consistently well written and enjoyable RPG's. Over a decade later and the Infinity Engine, and in particular Baldur's Gate modding community is still going strong. Hamsters and rangers everywhere to this day would rejoice at the announcement that Bioware was making one more Baldur's Gate game. RPG's are what they're good at and RPG's are what they should stick with. Now obviously I've no issues with non-traditional gameplay in said RPG's, but without their storytelling and role playing you'd be left with little more than a boring dime a dozen game.

[Shimmer_Gloom]

@Rurik_Nial: Okay? Now what about the marketing has told you that the Mass Effect series is anything but "a boring dime a dozen game?" And how are we to know that there are any RPG elements in it at all?

[Vez04]

Rurik_Niall wrote...

Shimmer_Gloom wrote...

Okay.  So.  Why shouldn't Bioware target the people who play farmville exclusively?  Why shouldn't Mass Effect try to appeal to everyone?  Why should it ONLY apeal to the target demographic.

It doesn't.  Many different types of people and gamers are likely to find Mass Effect interesting.  Marketing just has to reach them and show them why.

Now.  Of course you want to target your core first.  But companies like EA survive by bringing in much more than the target demographic.  So.  Again.

Why just apeal to Action gamers?  Or just RPG gamers?  Or just 'true gamers?'  What does EA/Bioware get by doing that?

A dedicated fanbase that you can count on. Bioware has built their fanbase with consistently well written and enjoyable RPG's. Over a decade later and the Infinity Engine, and in particular Baldur's Gate modding community is still going strong. Hamsters and rangers everywhere to this day would rejoice at the announcement that Bioware was making one more Baldur's Gate game. RPG's are what they're good at and RPG's are what they should stick with. Now obviously I've no issues with non-traditional gameplay in said RPG's, but without their storytelling and role playing you'd be left with little more than a boring dime a dozen game.

Just about the ''Over a decade late and the Infinity Engine''

Mass Effect Uses Unreal 3 Engine, not infinity Engine m8, just wanted to point that out for ya.

[AngelicMachinery]

I have to say I would like to see more Femmeshep, but, I fear if she was part of the advertising she'd just end up hypersexualized which would probably end up turning off a good portion of the female demographic we already have.

[Rurik_Niall]

Shimmer_Gloom wrote...

@Rurik_Nial: Okay? Now what about
the marketing has told you that the Mass Effect series is anything but
"a boring dime a dozen game?" And how are we to know that there are
any RPG elements in it at all?

The Bioware logo for a start. Also this trailer does wonders as well.

Vez04 wrote...

Just about the ''Over a decade late and the Infinity Engine''

Mass Effect Uses Unreal 3 Engine, not infinity Engine m8, just wanted to point that out for ya.

No, really?! I never would have guessed! They look so similar! Next you'll be telling me that Pac Man uses a different engine from Oblivion!

[Vez04]

Rurik_Niall wrote...

Shimmer_Gloom wrote...

@Rurik_Nial: Okay? Now what about
the marketing has told you that the Mass Effect series is anything but
"a boring dime a dozen game?" And how are we to know that there are
any RPG elements in it at all?

The Bioware logo for a start. Also this trailer does wonders as well.

Vez04 wrote...

Just about the ''Over a decade late and the Infinity Engine''

Mass Effect Uses Unreal 3 Engine, not infinity Engine m8, just wanted to point that out for ya.

No, really?! I never would have guessed! They look so similar! Next you'll be telling me that Pac Man uses a different engine from Oblivion!

Yep No Shi* it even stands on wikipedia Mass Effect (Not the Blue Wikipedia ME page, the white one) ,

And about Pac Man Uses a diff engine from Oblivion. Lol nope that i wouldent.

[Xaijin]

I'll summarize it here: the only reason I played Mass Effect was that a
webcomic artist I liked did a drawing of female Shepard.

I didn't miss anything; I bleieve I stated your premise is completely flawed. stem to stern, objectively speaking and I even included the term fetish as an extremely clear indicator.

Also somewhat hypocritical to argue for "vsibility equality" and then claim marketing dissonance when it is OBVIOUS that Shepard is in fact, beyond gender, for the puposes of story vehicle, and a great deal of players are aware of the ability to customize and then play, and they are aware because the company who made the game produced media staing exactly that numerous times.

Modifié par Xaijin, 28 avril 2011 - 06:07 .

[Shimmer_Gloom]

Rurik_Niall wrote...

Shimmer_Gloom wrote...

@Rurik_Nial: Okay? Now what about
the marketing has told you that the Mass Effect series is anything but
"a boring dime a dozen game?" And how are we to know that there are
any RPG elements in it at all?

The Bioware logo for a start. Also this trailer does wonders as well.

Vez04 wrote...

Just about the ''Over a decade late and the Infinity Engine''

Mass Effect Uses Unreal 3 Engine, not infinity Engine m8, just wanted to point that out for ya.

No, really?! I never would have guessed! They look so similar! Next you'll be telling me that Pac Man uses a different engine from Oblivion!

You are using the "Joss Whedon" argument like last time.  Vast majority of gamers are not going to be familiar with bioware very well.  And we can't assume that they are even if that was true.

And that was a very fine trailer.  And I think it drives the action points home very well.  Nothing, though, says "RPG" to me.  And nowhere do we really see a woman kicking ass.   It doesn't have much to draw in the female gamers or those that are kinda tired of space marines.

BUT.  It was a trailer.  I'm not sure trailers are the best way to introduce people to the RPG elements though.  But like I said, it was done fairely well with DA2 (ie showcasing the three classes).

[Shimmer_Gloom]

Xaijin wrote...

I'll summarize it here: the only reason I played Mass Effect was that a
webcomic artist I liked did a drawing of female Shepard.

I didn't miss anything; I bleieve I stated your premise is completely flawed. stem to stern, objectively speaking and i even included the term fetish as an extremely clear indicator.

Also hypocritical to argue for equality and then claim marketing dissonance when it is OBVIOUS that Shpeard is in fact, beyond gender, for the puposes of story vehicle.

I do not believe that.  Shepard has TWO genders.  The male and female versions of Shepard may be the same character but not the same GENDER.  This is an important distinction.  And just becuase the game was designed in a way that the gender isn't important to the story does not mean gender is not important to the character either.

Further.  I would also say that gender is important to the player as well.  Not as important as story or gameplay or etc.  But to deny that gender is a factor in the equation is, imo, not true.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Shimmer_Gloom wrote...

Rurik_Niall wrote...

Shimmer_Gloom wrote...

@Rurik_Nial: Okay? Now what about
the marketing has told you that the Mass Effect series is anything but
"a boring dime a dozen game?" And how are we to know that there are
any RPG elements in it at all?

The Bioware logo for a start. Also this trailer does wonders as well.

Vez04 wrote...

Just about the ''Over a decade late and the Infinity Engine''

Mass Effect Uses Unreal 3 Engine, not infinity Engine m8, just wanted to point that out for ya.

No, really?! I never would have guessed! They look so similar! Next you'll be telling me that Pac Man uses a different engine from Oblivion!

You are using the "Joss Whedon" argument like last time.  Vast majority of gamers are not going to be familiar with bioware very well.  And we can't assume that they are even if that was true.

And that was a very fine trailer.  And I think it drives the action points home very well.  Nothing, though, says "RPG" to me.  And nowhere do we really see a woman kicking ass.   It doesn't have much to draw in the female gamers or those that are kinda tired of space marines.

BUT.  It was a trailer.  I'm not sure trailers are the best way to introduce people to the RPG elements though.  But like I said, it was done fairely well with DA2 (ie showcasing the three classes).

Indeed. I can cut together a trailer for just about any shooter that looks as much like an "RPG" as that trailer does. That trailer would not make me want to buy or play that game or even research it. There's nothing in that trailer that shows aliens as anything other than enemies. There's nothing in that trailer that shows any sort of conflict resolution other than combat. There's nothing in that trailer that shows a character expressing nuanced emotion.

There is nothing in that trailer that makes me want to play Mass Effect. In fact, that trailer almost made me not want to play Mass Effect, which I've already stated is the best game ever made.

So no, that kind of trailer isn't something that lets players know what kind of game Mass Effect is. Heck, that trailer may be the reason that half my friends seem to think that Mass Effect is a personality-less shooter starring an emotionaless crewcutted bro.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 28 avril 2011 - 05:13 .

[Rurik_Niall]

Not the action parts of the trailer, rather the dialogue, the parts that show Anderson talking to Shepard. The camera angles used are ones that I've come to recognise as being used in RPG's, especially ones made by Bioware and to a lesser extent Obsidian. It's hard to really articulate it just like it's hard for me to really articulate how I can spot a Photoshop job no matter how well it's been done there's just certain visual styles that RPG's tend to have that pure action games don't.

[Paula Deen]

The problem is that the default male Shepard, and his N7 armor (along with the Normandy) are the iconic images of the ME franchise. It's hard to establish icons of a franchise, and trying to introduce more could end up devaluing or confusing the other established icons.

[ciaweth]

Paula Deen wrote...

The problem is that the default male Shepard, and his N7 armor (along with the Normandy) are the iconic images of the ME franchise. It's hard to establish icons of a franchise, and trying to introduce more could end up devaluing or confusing the other established icons.

They're only "iconic" because BioWare decided to make them so in the first place.  That's the whole point.

[Shimmer_Gloom]

Paula Deen wrote...

The problem is that the default male Shepard, and his N7 armor (along with the Normandy) are the iconic images of the ME franchise. It's hard to establish icons of a franchise, and trying to introduce more could end up devaluing or confusing the other established icons.

And I see this as only a benifit.  We have this "icon" right?  People THINK they know what Mass Effect is "oh yeah its that game with the space marine that shoots people" and they don't check it out becuase of this.  Marketing should show them why this isn't nessicarilly the case.

I don't think EA has time to swich gears right now.  They established a brand and an icon... but that doesn't mean they need to stop there does it?  Why not branch out?  Try to snag other demographics?

[Shimmer_Gloom]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Shimmer_Gloom wrote...

Rurik_Niall wrote...

Shimmer_Gloom wrote...

@Rurik_Nial: Okay? Now what about
the marketing has told you that the Mass Effect series is anything but
"a boring dime a dozen game?" And how are we to know that there are
any RPG elements in it at all?

The Bioware logo for a start. Also this trailer does wonders as well.

Vez04 wrote...

Just about the ''Over a decade late and the Infinity Engine''

Mass Effect Uses Unreal 3 Engine, not infinity Engine m8, just wanted to point that out for ya.

No, really?! I never would have guessed! They look so similar! Next you'll be telling me that Pac Man uses a different engine from Oblivion!

You are using the "Joss Whedon" argument like last time.  Vast majority of gamers are not going to be familiar with bioware very well.  And we can't assume that they are even if that was true.

And that was a very fine trailer.  And I think it drives the action points home very well.  Nothing, though, says "RPG" to me.  And nowhere do we really see a woman kicking ass.   It doesn't have much to draw in the female gamers or those that are kinda tired of space marines.

BUT.  It was a trailer.  I'm not sure trailers are the best way to introduce people to the RPG elements though.  But like I said, it was done fairely well with DA2 (ie showcasing the three classes).

Indeed. I can cut together a trailer for just about any shooter that looks as much like an "RPG" as that trailer does. That trailer would not make me want to buy or play that game or even research it. There's nothing in that trailer that shows aliens as anything other than enemies. There's nothing in that trailer that shows any sort of conflict resolution other than combat. There's nothing in that trailer that shows a character expressing nuanced emotion.

There is nothing in that trailer that makes me want to play Mass Effect. In fact, that trailer almost made me not want to play Mass Effect, which I've already stated is the best game ever made.

So no, that kind of trailer isn't something that lets players know what kind of game Mass Effect is. Heck, that trailer may be the reason that half my friends seem to think that Mass Effect is a personality-less shooter starring an emotionaless crewcutted bro.

This.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Rurik_Niall wrote...

Not the action parts of the trailer, rather the dialogue, the parts that show Anderson talking to Shepard. The camera angles used are ones that I've come to recognise as being used in RPG's, especially ones made by Bioware and to a lesser extent Obsidian. It's hard to really articulate it just like it's hard for me to really articulate how I can spot a Photoshop job no matter how well it's been done there's just certain visual styles that RPG's tend to have that pure action games don't.

But you only see that it has styles that represent Bioware games because you have played Bioware games. If you hadn't you wouldn't. I've played Bioware games (only five for six of them, I'll admit), and I don't even see it.

There are a lot of gamers who are "true" gamers by your definition... that is to say, people who are passionate about games, who just haven't been exposed to Bioware yet. They don't see the tells. Heck, I'd be curious to show that trailer to a hundred people who don't recognize it as Mass Effect, and ask them what genre they think the game is. I'd bet dollars to donuts that Shooter or Action would outnumber RPG by at least 2 to 1.

When I was 16, I had only played platform games, puzzlers, and pokemon. I had a Super Nintendo, a DS and an N64. I'd never owned a game-capable computer. I was two years away from getting my own PC and starting to play the original Everquest. And yet... I was a gamer. I had only played these things because that's all I knew about. They were the games I was able to acquire, mostly used from friends. When I saw a new Zelda I'd buy that, because I had played the original Zelda. The internet wasn't the same back then, and I couldn't afford game magazines. Also, I walked uphill both ways in the snow.

I had no idea what a computer RPG was, or what one looked like. But you wouldn't say I wasn't a gamer. If you told 16-year-old me "There is a game where you can play as a female space captain in a world with aliens like Star Trek and you can make your own choices" I would have given you all my kidneys to play that game. All of them! I would have gathered a pile of kidneys as high as the sky, and I would not have cared where I got them. Your kidneys would not have been safe.

If you had showed 16-year-old-me that trailer, I would have said "meh" and gone back to leveling my Lapras, or beating Super Mario World for the 18th time, or playing StarFox 64 again.

I think there are a lot of girls like old me out there. Girls ages 13-22 who would be interested in a game where you make friends with aliens and have conversations and yes, shoot things with guns. It doesn't even have to be as a woman... a man with an expressive face, an interesting voice, and a sense of humor would do just as well. Chicks dig Nathan Drake, he reminds them of Nathan Fillion. But this trailer doesn't show Sheploo as anything other than Beef Punchbeef.

To get people who like RPGs but aren't familiar with Bioware interested, the marketing material needs to show that there is cooperation, conversation, diplomacy, emotion, exploration, and choice. Not a single one of those things comes through in that trailer.

I'll admit that it's not 100% about gender. If Sheploo was Nathan Drake instead, you wouldn't need to show a chick to get girls interested. But instead of being a quirky, unique design created to be attractive to both genders, he is iconic of a pattern in gaming many are actively opposed to - grim, emotionless dudes shooting their way through crumbling alien fortresses. And he is an important marketing tool, because he appeals to all the dudes who are fans of grim emotionless dudes shooting their way through crumbling alien fortresses. More power to them.

Showing an interesting main male character, or a female character, isn't going to sell a game on its own. But it is a sign. A sign that the developers care about everyone. I'm trying to give an example here, one that will help you understand the minefield women who are trying to find games are faced with. Here is the best I can do: there is a game right now that states explicitly that women should make babies, and that only sterile women should be able to have free will. It's pretty obvious that whoever wrote that doesn't care how I feel when I play that game. It's sold millions, so why should they care? If I'm angry or hurt they don't give a crap about me. Bioware DOES care about me. And yet that trailer could just as easily be a trailer for the game where women can't have free will and should be forcibly impregnated. There's no indication of anything to the contrary.

I'm going to try to avoid real world examples here, so here's my Mass Effect world example: Imagine a game that was all about Turians killing Asari. All the Turians are portrayed as brave and awesome, while the asari are portrayed as weak and stupid. If you were an Asari looking for a game, would you want to play that game? Or would you prefer to play a game where all races are treated as equally awesome and equally flawed?

That's what women are dealing with, a lot of the time: most games treat us as stupid and useless. So when we're looking at whether to look more deeply into a game, the first thing we want to know is this: "are there women in this game who aren't stupid and useless?" 

Here's the sad thing. You know what it would cost to make up a banner ad featuring both ManShep and FemShep having a conversation with Thane or Garrus, and run it for a week on Girl Genius? $200 or less.  What would it cost to do a huge Webcomic push, making campaigns and blanketing a bunch of comics with female main characters for a month? Probably a few thousand dollars. That is nothing. Game companies spend more than that on crudite at the launch party. Would it earn out? I'd be curious to see, but I'd guarantee you'd get more back from it than you get from the crudite.

[Xaijin]

Vast majority of gamers are not going to be familiar with bioware very well.

Wrong, and blatant skewing to boot. 5-7 million people are quite aware of me is and represents, and that covers only purchasers, not purveyors, and in addition also does not cover digital downloads, which puts it quite substantially ahead of the last iteration of the JRPG you mentioned as a counterpoint. Your use of subjective declaratives and FUD isn't particularly helping your position much.

Modifié par Xaijin, 28 avril 2011 - 06:13 .

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Xaijin wrote...

Vast majority of gamers are not going to be familiar with bioware very well.

Wrong, and blatant skewing to boot. 5-7 million people are quite aware of me is and represents, and that covers only purchasers, not purveyors, and in addition also does not cover digital downloads, which puts it quite substantially ahead of the last iteration of the JRPG you mentioned as a counterpoint. Your use of subjective declaratives and FUD isn't particularly helping your position much.

Do you believe that everyone who has played Mass Effect knows that Bioware is a company famous for making RPGs? This is the same thread where others have argued that having a cover with a woman on it would make a huge number of people who played Mass Effect instantly confused, and would cause those people not to buy the game out of confusion and anger. But if everyone who is buying the game knows who Bioware is, and is buying the game because of the Bioware name, then having a woman on the cover should have no negative effect whatsoever.

Some people buy Mass Effect because they know Bioware makes great games. Some people buy Mass Effect because it won a lot of awards and got good reviews. Some people buy Mass Effect because they liked the cover. Some people buy Mass Effect because they went into a store looking for a shooter and they bought one.

What we are saying is this: some people would buy Mass Effect if we managed to get a message to them. "Science Fiction Double Feature! RPG RPG! Play as a girl or a guy, make friends with aliens, and save the world!"

These people aren't getting this message. How can we get them this message? Small scale ads targeted in female-dominated nerd media.

The end.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 28 avril 2011 - 06:21 .