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[Saintthanksgiving]

 With the release of Appearance Pack 1 we finally get to the bottom of the mystery of the missing toolset.

• was it a sacrifice made to the gods of developement schedule?  
• was it a casualty of what many people described  as a "consolization" of the series?
• was it being witheld so that the integrity of the core game was protected, at least until the initial sales calmed down?

OR

Was it because the toolset provided free access to content that Bioware could charge you money for?

     Do any of the people who jumped down my throat when i cursed bioware for shoehorning DA2 into a Mass Effect with swords want to chime back in here?

     When people asked why the developers removed the ability to equip companions, the "party line"  was that equipping companions with found items and armor somehow detracted from that character.  Fine.  I didn't like it but fine.

( I happen to think that wearing the same outfit for the better part of a decade is worse.... but whatever.)

Then the first DLC content is released, and shocker of all shockers.... Its New armor and items for you and your companions!... for the low low price of 5 bucks.


This is not, as many PC users feared, a consolization of the series.  Bioware just realized they could squeeze another five bucks out of you.  Before anyone else says it... Bioware is in the buisness of making money.  Good for them. 

Modifié par Saintthanksgiving, 27 avril 2011 - 10:38 .

[David Gaider]

Persephone wrote...
The only fact to be found above is: Yes, a toolset would make things easier.

An update to the toolset would make things easier, indeed.

I have no word on whether that will happen. If someone chooses to believe that, if it doesn't happen, that's because we wish to sell more DLC to PC users (the only people who really benefit from a toolset, after all), there's not really much we can do to suggest otherwise.

I think it adds value to the game for PC users who like to use mods-- for some of them it fixes (or at least amerliorates) the issues they have with the original game. Sadly, not everything is always going to be possible.

[David Gaider]

Speakeasy13 wrote...
Can we also summarize from that (lack of a) statement, that Bioware doesn't appreciate or encourage modding anymore? That instead of investing time and energy into keeping your product alive, you'd much prefer if we just hand over our money?

That... would be quite the extrapolation.

My not having word on a toolset stems from the fact that I am in no way involved in that decision.

[David Gaider]

Speakeasy13 wrote...
Maybe so on our part. But it's just normative human psychology: take away something from ppl, and they will feel discouraged. If we never had one it'd be more okay, but we had one in DA:O and not in DA2, so it's only natural that ppl are guessing.

I'm not certain how we're "taking something away" when a toolset has never been promised or even hinted at, and was a free extra for DAO primarily available because of the delay of release after the game's completion. Does a free extra for one game mean it's a promise for the sequel? If you believe so, then fair enough, but I'm afraid that so long as something is both "extra" and "free" it's very likely going to be on the "when we can" list.

Is that an official statement? By no means. I think BioWare is well aware that there are plenty of PC users who would love to have such an update. There are also users who would like patches, and DLC, and no doubt a great many other things... so we'll do what we can. That's all I can really say, sorry.

Modifié par David Gaider, 27 avril 2011 - 10:44 .

[David Gaider]

Rylor Tormtor wrote...
Come on David, that is weak. I followed the entire development cycle of DA, back when there was nothing known, and a tool set for the community was always part of the development process, I would assume mostly due to the great success of the NWN tool set and the fact that those people were your main audience. The tool set for DAO was not some consolation prize for missing a date.

No, what I'm saying is the reason the DAO toolset was released with the game (and not six months after release) was because the release of the game was delayed. It was always intended to be released, however, you are quite correct... as a free extra. It was never a part of the core game as the NWN toolset was.

You are completely right that I would not have expected a "free"* extra toolset from most companies. I mistakingly had a different impression of Bioware from their previous product releases. I have since re-evaluated my impression. Thank you for encouraging to correct my thinking.

If you wish to take the lack of confirmation as confirmation of the lack, I certainly won't stop you.

With regards to any kind of potential toolset update there are many issues with regards to third-party software and programming hurdles that would need to be solved in order to provide the community with anything that was remotely useful. I'm sure that, if it can be done, it will.

[John Epler]

Sabriana wrote...

@ The Ethereal Writer Redux

That's exactly what he's been trying to get across. He, personally, can not confirm the toolset. He's also trying to tell everyone that toolset updates take time.

He did it twice now, and unless I lost my power of reading comprehension, and my English, he also stated that if it's possible to release a toolset, he's sure it will. That's speculation, and that's all he can say. He's the lead writer, not the toolset wiz.

Pretty much. The amount of influence and impact that a content creator has on the eventual release of a toolset is limited.

I mean, while I'm sure I could offer to help with the programming, I would imagine that a level of competence beyond 'Hello World' would be a prerequisite.

[John Epler]

88mphSlayer wrote...

the DLC doesn't include companion armor changes/appearance changes

just 2 sets of armor for each player class, a bunch of weapons for each class, and a unique ring/amulet for each companion

they should still release the toolset tho, some people will buy the DLC but probably not enough that having a toolset will make a dent in sales

I posted this elsewhere, but it seems relevant here as well:

The caveat here, unfortunately, is that DLC, patches and toolset release for the public all require rather different resource allocation. DLC is almost entirely content creation - there's very little programming
necessary. Maybe a few workflow changes to the tools to make life easier for those of us using them, or to address concerns that were raised  when working on DA2, but it's almost entirely content side - Design,  Art, Audio and QA. It should be noted, of course, that QA is the one resource that appears in all three with similar representation. Though when it comes to item packs and the like, the distribution is mostly Art, with some QA and minimal Design representation, mostly to stat out the items and make sure they don't break anything elsewhere in the game.

Patches involve both groups, though there isn't really much for Art to do in a patch. Nor, for that matter, for the majority of Design - there isn't really much for Cinematic Design or Writing to do in a patch, for example, though Tech Design is likely going to hop in and fix a few bugs. So all of those groups tend to be allocated to DLC. Programming also enters the picture here, as there are certainly bugs that can only be fixed by them - so while you wouldn't have much in the way of programming resources for DLC, you'll have them for patch work. And, of course, QA once again needs to test the patch to ensure that it A) fixes what it's supposed to fix and doesn't break anything else.

And finally, there's any work involved in releasing the toolset. Here, it's almost entirely Programming. Design, Art, Audio - there's nothing much for us to do, aside from maybe provide occasional feedback along the lines of 'if you release it to the public you need to make sure that X and Y work properly or else there's no point in letting them do Z'. QA is necessary to test the tools, so you have to get them involved, but aside from that it's all Programming.

So DLC doesn't really preclude the toolset, which doesn't really preclude patching. Though there's some resource sharing, each of the three has its own unique allocation that shouldn't interfere with the others. That's not always the case, but as a general rule it's pretty accurate.

Modifié par JohnEpler, 28 avril 2011 - 10:59 .

[David Gaider]

Saintthanksgiving wrote...
and Persephone if you read the entire thread you would have seen that we already acknowledged that the modders havent been eliminated. What we said was, they have a lot more work on their hands making mods compatible with DA2. If making mods is a lot harder to do, less people will bother to do them. Even the people who still do them will probably make less because of the sheer hassle of it.

And you're saying that it would be great if we could make things easier for the modders... or that we're obligated to do so? I'm uncertain which you're actually saying, here.

[Fernando Melo]

If you'd like to actually find out why we did something like Item Packs, feel free to read here:
social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/260/index/7215354/31#7255515

I've already mentioned several times in the past that a toolset is actually beneficial to the game (and DLC for that matter).  If we could, we would.

Regardless of whether there is a toolset or not (or mods), things like Item Packs have a place in our DLC plan because players want it - simple as that.  

One thing does not invalidate the other.  However, you are free to continue to invent conspiracies and entertain yourselves (as long as it stays on topic, etc etc).

F.

[David Gaider]

Saintthanksgiving wrote...
I am saying that Dragon Age Origins provided support to modders. That support added a lot of content to the game which lead to a larger and sustained interest in the game. That support has not, as of yet, been provided in Dragon Age 2. From all of the developer comments that I have read, it is apparently not even PLANNED to be provided yet.

We did provide support to modders of DAO, yes. It does add content and value (for PC users only, let's not ignore that), which is indeed awesome. As for our plans for DA2, we have not yet made any promises that we would do the same-- only that we would look into it, and because the toolset adds value we'll do it if we can. If we are careful in our words it's mainly because even a hint of more will be taken as an iron-clad promise, one that we aren't ready to make. Anything beyond that is your assumption.

I am also saying that other content was removed from Dragon Age Origins, and is now being returned via "pay as you go" DLC.

We haven't removed anything from DAO. The toolset is still there for those who would like to mod DAO.

Unless you mean that it's a feature that DAO had that DA2 doesn't have? I'll remind you, again, that the toolset was an extra. It was not on the disc, but something we released at the same time which PC users could access. It may have been an extra you were very happy to have access to, and we were happy to be able to provide, but that's not the same as a integral feature. It's not part of the project as, say, a toolset was with NWN.

As for "pay as you go" DLC, DAO had DLC even though it had a toolset. You may suggest you have no option to not buy the DLC, but that's really up to you. A toolset isn't there to allow you to not buy DLC, just as not having a toolset isn't meant to force you to buy it. Considering that two out of three of the platforms we support wouldn't have the option either way, one thing simply has nothing to do with the other.

Bioware has made it painfully clear that they are not beholden to any imagined obligation of mine to provide "Dragon Age Origins 2" [a toolset]

Correct. Just as we were not beholden to do so for DAO.

So no.... I am not saying that Bioware is any more obligated to provide a toolset than I am obligated to purchase Dragon Age or Mass Effect 3.

Excellent. Mass Effect doesn't provide a toolset either, after all. The criteria by which you decide to buy a game is entirely up to you, whether they be extras or not. Insofar as DA2 goes, if we can provide the support to PC modders that you're asking for, we will, and it really goes no further than that.

Modifié par David Gaider, 30 avril 2011 - 04:02 .

[David Gaider]

I was not referring to the toolset by itself.  I have clarified multiple times that this thread is not solely an issue with the missing toolset, but a pattern of removing content and replacing it with pay as you go DLC.

Where your supposition breaks down is this: if DLC did not exist, that does not mean that the things you can get with DLC would suddenly be in the game instead. That's not so. Things do not get created, and then removed and sold. The possibility for extra revenue, however, does provide the company an incentive to create extra content.

This has nothing to do with the toolset, and if that's also your position than I'm not sure why you keep bringing it up. The creation of a toolset will depend on whether we will have the programming resources to devote to it-- not to mention the ability to resolve third-party licensing issues. Programming resources aren't needed for DLC -- DLC is content creation. Just because you can create content with it doesn't impact who among us needs to do the work . Completely different matter.

If you wish to blend them together as some kind of conspiracy theory as to why we're not providing you the extras you want, that's really your business-- but it won't convince us to provide them any more quickly. We'd love to provide a toolset. As mentioned before, by us as well as other posters, it allows users to provide value to other users. Thus we'll go out of our way to prioritize it, regardless of the number of users it actually benefits. We won't, however, make promises about it.

-Your friend,
The Spoiled and Ungrateful PC User.

To be clear, I neither consider you spoiled nor ungrateful. It would be helpful, however, if you didn't try making baseless accusations for not giving you what you want. That certainly makes you seem spoiled and ungrateful. PC modders don't deserve such a champion, however, as they've proven themselves resourceful and generally grateful for whatever help we can give them to mod a game that they enjoy.

I'd suggest simply making it very clear to BioWare how much you'd really like to see a toolset update and how beneficial it would be. We know this, of course, but it never hurts to make your desires heard so they don't get lost in the shuffle. Beyond that, as Fernando said, we shall see what we can do.

Modifié par David Gaider, 30 avril 2011 - 08:15 .

[David Gaider]

Saintthanksgiving wrote...
What I am saying is, a large amount of non-DLC things did exist in ORIGINS, and they did not return in the sequel.  I dont think content was created for DA2 and then removed to be sold later.  DA2 was designed without this content, with the intent of selling it to the player later. 

The content in question was included in the original purchase price of DAO.

Calling me a conspiracy theorist is really giving me too much credit.  It doesnt take an ultra paranoid genius to figure out that, especially following the success of ME2, a marketing analyst working for Bioware (or EA depending on your particular prejudice) saw that a large amount of money could be made by doing this.

so, to sum up, I remain only a mildly paranoid genius.

As far as me being a Champion of the forgotten and downtrodden fans. 

"I may not be the Hero that Dragon Age deserves, but I am the one it needs right now."

As far as I can tell, it doesn't take a genius to add 1 and 1 together and get 3. But have fun being a bolded-and-underlined Champion, I guess. Hopefully that works out for you.

Modifié par David Gaider, 01 mai 2011 - 12:44 .

[David Gaider]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...
What do you want? People on their knees for you? Why can't you just for once make a mature post? Be comiited to modding or not. That's a damn silly requirement for something that your company benefits from in the first place.

Err... I am not BioWare. I am not the one who decides whether or not we can update the toolset. Hence my suggestion to make what you want known, and keep asking. Not to say that the squeaky wheel gets the grease, precisely, but letting your desires be known in a positive way is much better than being angry and demanding. That's a good way to get your desires dismissed out of hand.

Just a suggestion from me to all of you. If that's not considered a mature suggestion, then there's a definition of mature I'm unaware of. Really I hope we can give you guys what you want, but with that I'll leave you to it. Clearly I've added all to the discussion that I can.

[David Gaider]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...
Ghehe. You can change it anyway you like, but you wanted to make him "very clear to BioWare how much you'd really like to see a toolset update and how beneficial it would be" and then continued that you already knew that answer. That's not mature. That's insulting.

So the fact that we already know that you guys want a toolset should stop all conversation? Well there's no need for this thread then, is there? People are going to continue to advocate for what they want no matter what we do or don't know-- you're not telling us anything new. I'm saying that advocacy is good, and making a suggestion on how to go about it.

As far as being insulting and immature goes, I would simply say that those who live in grass houses shouldn't stow thrones.

[David Gaider]

Your posting style when repsonding tends to come across as aloof, a bit impertinent and dismissive, that's my impression of your style here in the forums from my experiences, not that it reflects on you as a person.  I won't pretend to know your mind and actual intentions as you reply here, that's simpIy an impossibly that should never be applied in these kinds of mediums, but impresssions are hard to set aside.

I don't really know what to say to that. I am trying to be polite and explain myself as carefully as I can-- and that makes me aloof and dismissive. If I express an opinion, I am insulting. If I argue the point, I am arrogant. It's moments like these where it really seems to be lose/lose to speak on the forums at all. That being the case, I'll leave it to those who wish to interpret my tone to do so, and continue as I may for the benefit of those who value a developer's input and choose not to be hyper-sensitive. Not really much more I can do.

Now, Bioware (not you LOL) released a DLC pack where only the PC can wear the new armors and use the new weapons, but the companions can only use the accessories (though the advertising suggests otherwise). This is paid-for cusmtomization which is still near totally limited to the PC, where there is already enough items in the game itself that the DLC feels superfluous, more than something that feels like a great add-on. If a toolset cannot be released, in which, yes, I would really like one, then at least offer a DLC where the companions can use (at least some) different armors and weapons like my PC can, even if charging money for it. Releasing a DLC, in light of no toolset, that is as limited as the game itself already is, wasn't good PR on the part of Bioware, IMO.

And, again, the mistaken assumption is that things would be different if there wasn't DLC. I understand that you'd like to be able to equip armor on your followers, sure, but it wasn't something that was changed just so we could sell DLC -- the fact that there is no follower armor in the item pack should be at least an indicator of that.

Even if there was, however, it still has nothing to do with the toolset. If you choose not to believe that, then so be it-- there are certainly many people who dislike DLC on principle and I doubt that's about to change, toolset or no. It's not my policy to set, but I imagine if there weren't people who liked smaller pieces of DLC and bought it, we wouldn't make it. If someone chooses to be offended by something they had no plan on purchasing, that's up to them, but it not being there wouldn't suddenly mean the content would exist elsewhere or that features would be changed.

As far as the toolset, I don't think my expounding on the pros and very the fews cons of releasing a toolset is needed. Your experience in the gaming realm over the many years you've been involved in it, should be exposure enough for you to make your own decisions on why it should, or should not be made for use among the gamer public.

Certainly. As I said earlier, however, that's hardly the final word on it. One needn't convince me, after all, as I heartily believe a toolset would be a wonderful boon. My thinking that doesn't change the obstacles, however, and insofar as anyone coming here telling us what they'd like to see or how they'd like us to do differently you can consider that your words might reach the ears of a developer or convince each other-- that's really all these forums are for. Whether you choose to use that opportunity to communicate or vent and cast aspersions is really up to you.

That's really all there is to it. Now I think I really will head off-- it's late, and I've probably hit my aloofness and impertinence quota for the day.

Modifié par David Gaider, 01 mai 2011 - 06:55 .