277 réponses à ce sujet

[Perles75]

The argument used by the Bioware staff against the inclusion of the toolset is that it needs significant work and they prefer to focus on other things.
It seems to me that Bioware does not fully realize how crucial a Toolset for DA2 really is. The reception of the fanbase (that was the one that allowed the big boost of the first week of sales) was mild at best: the Toolset could be the key (the only way, perhaps?) to keep the attention of the players awake for long time.
The NWN1 example, already made by several people, should be kept in mind, even if I know DA2 cannot be modded as extensively.

I really think a Toolset development should be at the top of Bioware priorities, and not just a cute toy as they seem to consider it.

Modifié par Perles75, 01 mai 2011 - 10:08 .

[Valcutio]

Plaintiff wrote...

Valcutio wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...
What do you want? People on their knees for you? Why can't you just for once make a mature post? Be comiited to modding or not. That's a damn silly requirement for something that your company benefits from in the first place.

Err... I am not BioWare. I am not the one who decides whether or not we can update the toolset. Hence my suggestion to make what you want known, and keep asking. Not to say that the squeaky wheel gets the grease, precisely, but letting your desires be known in a positive way is much better than being angry and demanding. That's a good way to get your desires dismissed out of hand.

Just a suggestion from me to all of you. If that's not considered a mature suggestion, then there's a definition of mature I'm unaware of. Really I hope we can give you guys what you want, but with that I'll leave you to it. Clearly I've added all to the discussion that I can.

Bioware used to be held above every other developer by the fans. A king among the gaming community. You people could have sold dirt in a box and sold as many copies as DA2 sold the first couple of weeks.

Portal 2's DLC will be free and Skyrim will be including mod tools. Meanwhile, you people are selling horse armor. You have gone beyond disappointing your core fans - you're insulting them at every step. Perhaps you personally aren't responsible - but defending the ones that are is almost as bad.

Considering that Portal 2 can be completed in an afternoon and Skyrim is, you know, currently non-existent, I wouldn't advise lauding either of them as examples to look up to.

In fact, if I were you, I'd take a step back and look at how you're insulting the fellow Bioware customers you claim to represent. The concept of "core fans" is incredibly elitist and exclusionary, even if it only exists in the privacy of your own head. I don't have to play Baldur's Gate or Neverwinter Nights or any other older Bioware game for my opinion to be as valid as yours, and not every long-term fan of the company hates or feels insulted by this new move. If you want to express your displeasure then do so, but drawing lines in the sand based on arbitrary requirements only serves to alienate those who would otherwise support you and makes you look foolish.

In response to the bolded sentence: 

Yes, you do. If you've never played the Baldur's Gate series then I'm not sure how you can say that your opinion is as informed as my own. An uninformed person's opinion carries less weight. Don't like it? Doesn't matter. That's how the world works. Just as I'm sure my opinion is less valid than someone who has played the Baldur's Gate series AND is a game developer.

Logic. Use it.

Modifié par Valcutio, 01 mai 2011 - 10:38 .

[Saintthanksgiving]

I don't think that any of my posts have been overly provocative or insulting.  I have tried to qualify every statement made when it is questioned.

Also, I don't understand why I am being labeled a conspiracy theorist for saying bioware is trying to make a few extra bucks off of us, when half the people who are arguing with me are doing so under the pretense that Bioware is a for-profit buisness and has every right to make a living.

Am I a conspiracy theorist or a communist?

My problem is not that Bioware is making money.  My problem is that I paid full price for DA2 and I got a whole lot less for my money.  I dont think that complaining about the quality of a product makes me some kind of #@& stirring malcontent.

also, it seems that every time I try to differentiate between the toolset issue, and the removal of customization options in the game, I keep getting dismissed as a PC user whining for a toolset.

The toolset is not the only issue being brought up here.

I also have a problem with the content, excluding the toolset, that was available to the user in Origins; and now appears to be available only through pay as you go DLC.

Mr. Gaider's post did reference this so I would like to address it:
"I understand that you'd like to be able to equip armor on your followers, sure, but it wasn't something that was changed just so we could sell DLC -- the fact that there is no follower armor in the item pack should be at least an indicator of that."

Mr. Gaider, if Bioware releases an alternate appearance pack for companions as a Free Download for its users, then you, and Bioware, will recieve a full Bolded and Underlined apology from me.

If Mass Effect 2 is any indication however, these options will be released, and they will come with a price tag.

[Valcutio]

Saintthanksgiving is indeed the champion of the people. You have my sword.

[Skilled Seeker]

Valcutio, your opinion isn't worth any more than the rest of us actually. We are all Bioware customers, we've all paid for DA2, our opinions are all equally relevant.

[Valcutio]

Skilled Seeker wrote...

Valcutio, your opinion isn't worth any more than the rest of us actually. We are all Bioware customers, we've all paid for DA2, our opinions are all equally relevant.

Only if you agree with me.

[naomis8329]

I still don't understand why they will not release an updated toolset. The foundation is there already surely its just a matter of changing certain things to get it to work with the current game.

Considering the amazing mods created for DAO and for the love of the game and not money, then BioWare and EA should really reconsider their stance on this. Quests and Legands and The Dark Chronicles are mods I love and are of amazing quality and richness.

This can't all be about money, the console versions may not have sold as well, but "true" gamers ie PC gamers, enjoy the game and enjoy expanding the game with the construction and toolsets. This enriches and enhances the gaming experience for all and it is not our fault that console users can't have access to these wonderful creations that is something the console manufacturers should take up with the game producers and vice versa.

I for one do hope that this is resolved in a positive way as I miss having a toolset to muck about with as I enjoy playing around with morphs, but that's me being selfish lol.

[Cutlass Jack]

Saintthanksgiving wrote...

Mr. Gaider, if Bioware releases an alternate appearance pack for companions as a Free Download for its users, then you, and Bioware, will recieve a full Bolded and Underlined apology from me.

If Mass Effect 2 is any indication however, these options will be released, and they will come with a price tag.

What if there's never any alternate appearance pack? Would that get an apology from you? Or does your apology only come with a price tag?

[Addai]

Mr. Gaider mentioned "third party licensing issues" as being involved, this makes me wonder if the console companies object to having content released that is not available to/ applicable to their customers. Somewhere the spouse read a thread posting about an agreement BW made with the console companies not to release content that is not available on all platforms. I don't know if the toolset would be considered that or if he's even remembering what he read correctly (we can't find the link), but, it wouldn't surprise me. Mods are one of the reasons people choose PC over console. They can't be popular with the companies who lose money because of them- console makers, not Bioware.

Modifié par Addai67, 01 mai 2011 - 09:38 .

[alschemid]

Addai67 wrote...

Mr. Gaider mentioned "third party licensing issues" as being involved,

I think it has something to do with the programs from third party companies that are installed with the toolset like the FMOD designer (for sound) and the Face Fx (for facial expressions and lipsync), for example.

Modifié par alschemid, 01 mai 2011 - 10:09 .

[Cybermortis]

alschemid wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Mr. Gaider mentioned "third party licensing issues" as being involved,

I think it has something to do with the programs from third party companies that are installed with the toolset like the FMOD designer (for sound) and the Face Fx (for facial expressions and lipsync), for example.

Downloadable content for consoles has to be passed for quality* before the companies will allow it on their network. Fan-based mods would bring the networks to a standstill if the companies agreed to host them, as they would be trying to check each and every one.

(*Quality in this context meaning no major bugs or deliberate additions of suspect programs).


In other words a tool-set for the consoles is probably never going to happen, since you couldn't upload any mods you made and the kit itself is probably larger than what the networks allow on their servers anyway. This is most likely the 'third-person' aspect refered to above.

This can't all be about money, the console versions may not have sold as well, but "true" gamers ie PC gamers, enjoy the game and enjoy expanding the game with the construction and toolsets.

It is insulting to consider PC users to be in any degree 'truer' gamers than console users. Apart from anything else they are often the same person.

If console users don't make mods it is because they can't - for reasons given above. Likewise, and as I keep pointing out, if console gamers rarely play 'deep' games it is because the games companies are just not making them for the consoles. Apparently the games companies seem to think all console users dribble a lot and have the attention span of a stunned puppy.

There is no reason to claim that console users (or the consoles themselves) are incapable of handling 'deep' games. Nor that console gamers would not relish the chance to create mods for their games as much as some PC users if they could do so.

[Zeevico]

Can't you DL software, programs or files onto a console from your PC?

Modifié par Zeevico, 02 mai 2011 - 01:12 .

[Cybermortis]

No, or at least not legally.

[Ariella]

Valcutio wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Valcutio wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...
What do you want? People on their knees for you? Why can't you just for once make a mature post? Be comiited to modding or not. That's a damn silly requirement for something that your company benefits from in the first place.

Err... I am not BioWare. I am not the one who decides whether or not we can update the toolset. Hence my suggestion to make what you want known, and keep asking. Not to say that the squeaky wheel gets the grease, precisely, but letting your desires be known in a positive way is much better than being angry and demanding. That's a good way to get your desires dismissed out of hand.

Just a suggestion from me to all of you. If that's not considered a mature suggestion, then there's a definition of mature I'm unaware of. Really I hope we can give you guys what you want, but with that I'll leave you to it. Clearly I've added all to the discussion that I can.

Bioware used to be held above every other developer by the fans. A king among the gaming community. You people could have sold dirt in a box and sold as many copies as DA2 sold the first couple of weeks.

Portal 2's DLC will be free and Skyrim will be including mod tools. Meanwhile, you people are selling horse armor. You have gone beyond disappointing your core fans - you're insulting them at every step. Perhaps you personally aren't responsible - but defending the ones that are is almost as bad.

Considering that Portal 2 can be completed in an afternoon and Skyrim is, you know, currently non-existent, I wouldn't advise lauding either of them as examples to look up to.

In fact, if I were you, I'd take a step back and look at how you're insulting the fellow Bioware customers you claim to represent. The concept of "core fans" is incredibly elitist and exclusionary, even if it only exists in the privacy of your own head. I don't have to play Baldur's Gate or Neverwinter Nights or any other older Bioware game for my opinion to be as valid as yours, and not every long-term fan of the company hates or feels insulted by this new move. If you want to express your displeasure then do so, but drawing lines in the sand based on arbitrary requirements only serves to alienate those who would otherwise support you and makes you look foolish.

In response to the bolded sentence: 

Yes, you do. If you've never played the Baldur's Gate series then I'm not sure how you can say that your opinion is as informed as my own. An uninformed person's opinion carries less weight. Don't like it? Doesn't matter. That's how the world works. Just as I'm sure my opinion is less valid than someone who has played the Baldur's Gate series AND is a game developer.

Logic. Use it.

Speaking for other people isn't logical, nor do people need to have played BG or NWN to enjoy Mass Effect or Dragon Age or make their opinons of those games less valuable.  It is elitist of you to try and speak for me or anyone else. According to your lights, my opinion as as valid as your own as I've played every Bioware game except ME Galaxies and Sonic.

As for selling "horse armor" I find this DLC a great deal more enjoyable than the premium mod Infinate Dungeons, which had no story, or the OC of NWN, which was the Aribeth Tower bug kept me from even completeling chapter Two for months. And then of course there were the complaints of the main quest in each act being a fetch four fed ex.

And as for how the world works, it changes, Bioware's changed, and the economic enviroment that BG and NWN were delivered in has changed as well.

Completely OT: Bin Laden is DEAD!!!! Just confirmed on the news.

[neppakyo]

Zeevico wrote...

Can't you DL software, programs or files onto a console from your PC?

Nope. Not legally.

You don't own your console. You just spent a crapload of money to rent it.

[Sabriana]

neppakyo wrote...

Zeevico wrote...

Can't you DL software, programs or files onto a console from your PC?

Nope. Not legally.

You don't own your console. You just spent a crapload of money to rent it.

Oh my stars. I didn't know all that. I was never sure why the consoles were so restricted. Sure, I can understand that they run their own network and have to protect it from malignant users (as seen only recently), but that they are *this* restricted..., I had no idea.

I was going to purchase a console in a few years, when the newest ones come out, the kids have outgrown the Wii after all. But now I don't think I will. I think I rather save up some more and get a more powerful/upgraded PC.

My biggest dislike regarding any consumer product is to be continuously handcuffed by it. So I guess I better stay away from consoles. For my own sanity.

[Valcutio]

Ariella wrote...

Valcutio wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Valcutio wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...
What do you want? People on their knees for you? Why can't you just for once make a mature post? Be comiited to modding or not. That's a damn silly requirement for something that your company benefits from in the first place.

Err... I am not BioWare. I am not the one who decides whether or not we can update the toolset. Hence my suggestion to make what you want known, and keep asking. Not to say that the squeaky wheel gets the grease, precisely, but letting your desires be known in a positive way is much better than being angry and demanding. That's a good way to get your desires dismissed out of hand.

Just a suggestion from me to all of you. If that's not considered a mature suggestion, then there's a definition of mature I'm unaware of. Really I hope we can give you guys what you want, but with that I'll leave you to it. Clearly I've added all to the discussion that I can.

Bioware used to be held above every other developer by the fans. A king among the gaming community. You people could have sold dirt in a box and sold as many copies as DA2 sold the first couple of weeks.

Portal 2's DLC will be free and Skyrim will be including mod tools. Meanwhile, you people are selling horse armor. You have gone beyond disappointing your core fans - you're insulting them at every step. Perhaps you personally aren't responsible - but defending the ones that are is almost as bad.

Considering that Portal 2 can be completed in an afternoon and Skyrim is, you know, currently non-existent, I wouldn't advise lauding either of them as examples to look up to.

In fact, if I were you, I'd take a step back and look at how you're insulting the fellow Bioware customers you claim to represent. The concept of "core fans" is incredibly elitist and exclusionary, even if it only exists in the privacy of your own head. I don't have to play Baldur's Gate or Neverwinter Nights or any other older Bioware game for my opinion to be as valid as yours, and not every long-term fan of the company hates or feels insulted by this new move. If you want to express your displeasure then do so, but drawing lines in the sand based on arbitrary requirements only serves to alienate those who would otherwise support you and makes you look foolish.

In response to the bolded sentence: 

Yes, you do. If you've never played the Baldur's Gate series then I'm not sure how you can say that your opinion is as informed as my own. An uninformed person's opinion carries less weight. Don't like it? Doesn't matter. That's how the world works. Just as I'm sure my opinion is less valid than someone who has played the Baldur's Gate series AND is a game developer.

Logic. Use it.

Speaking for other people isn't logical, nor do people need to have played BG or NWN to enjoy Mass Effect or Dragon Age or make their opinons of those games less valuable.  It is elitist of you to try and speak for me or anyone else. According to your lights, my opinion as as valid as your own as I've played every Bioware game except ME Galaxies and Sonic.

As for selling "horse armor" I find this DLC a great deal more enjoyable than the premium mod Infinate Dungeons, which had no story, or the OC of NWN, which was the Aribeth Tower bug kept me from even completeling chapter Two for months. And then of course there were the complaints of the main quest in each act being a fetch four fed ex.

And as for how the world works, it changes, Bioware's changed, and the economic enviroment that BG and NWN were delivered in has changed as well.

Completely OT: Bin Laden is DEAD!!!! Just confirmed on the news.

You're telling me that knowing and having played a companies entire portfolio of games does not lend credit to a person's opinion? It doesn't broaden your insights into what said company is capable of? Rubbish.

An informed opinion is always worth more. Period.

[Ariella]

Valcutio wrote...

Ariella wrote...

Valcutio wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Valcutio wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...
What do you want? People on their knees for you? Why can't you just for once make a mature post? Be comiited to modding or not. That's a damn silly requirement for something that your company benefits from in the first place.

Err... I am not BioWare. I am not the one who decides whether or not we can update the toolset. Hence my suggestion to make what you want known, and keep asking. Not to say that the squeaky wheel gets the grease, precisely, but letting your desires be known in a positive way is much better than being angry and demanding. That's a good way to get your desires dismissed out of hand.

Just a suggestion from me to all of you. If that's not considered a mature suggestion, then there's a definition of mature I'm unaware of. Really I hope we can give you guys what you want, but with that I'll leave you to it. Clearly I've added all to the discussion that I can.

Bioware used to be held above every other developer by the fans. A king among the gaming community. You people could have sold dirt in a box and sold as many copies as DA2 sold the first couple of weeks.

Portal 2's DLC will be free and Skyrim will be including mod tools. Meanwhile, you people are selling horse armor. You have gone beyond disappointing your core fans - you're insulting them at every step. Perhaps you personally aren't responsible - but defending the ones that are is almost as bad.

Considering that Portal 2 can be completed in an afternoon and Skyrim is, you know, currently non-existent, I wouldn't advise lauding either of them as examples to look up to.

In fact, if I were you, I'd take a step back and look at how you're insulting the fellow Bioware customers you claim to represent. The concept of "core fans" is incredibly elitist and exclusionary, even if it only exists in the privacy of your own head. I don't have to play Baldur's Gate or Neverwinter Nights or any other older Bioware game for my opinion to be as valid as yours, and not every long-term fan of the company hates or feels insulted by this new move. If you want to express your displeasure then do so, but drawing lines in the sand based on arbitrary requirements only serves to alienate those who would otherwise support you and makes you look foolish.

In response to the bolded sentence: 

Yes, you do. If you've never played the Baldur's Gate series then I'm not sure how you can say that your opinion is as informed as my own. An uninformed person's opinion carries less weight. Don't like it? Doesn't matter. That's how the world works. Just as I'm sure my opinion is less valid than someone who has played the Baldur's Gate series AND is a game developer.

Logic. Use it.

Speaking for other people isn't logical, nor do people need to have played BG or NWN to enjoy Mass Effect or Dragon Age or make their opinons of those games less valuable.  It is elitist of you to try and speak for me or anyone else. According to your lights, my opinion as as valid as your own as I've played every Bioware game except ME Galaxies and Sonic.

As for selling "horse armor" I find this DLC a great deal more enjoyable than the premium mod Infinate Dungeons, which had no story, or the OC of NWN, which was the Aribeth Tower bug kept me from even completeling chapter Two for months. And then of course there were the complaints of the main quest in each act being a fetch four fed ex.

And as for how the world works, it changes, Bioware's changed, and the economic enviroment that BG and NWN were delivered in has changed as well.

Completely OT: Bin Laden is DEAD!!!! Just confirmed on the news.

You're telling me that knowing and having played a companies entire portfolio of games does not lend credit to a person's opinion? It doesn't broaden your insights into what said company is capable of? Rubbish.

An informed opinion is always worth more. Period.

You missed the point. Bioware isn't the same company as it was when it delievered BG and NWN. And to have an informed opinion on Dragon Age series games, one must have played Dragon Age series games. The others aren't relevant in that they're a different setting, different rules set and from a different time period in computer gaming. The world changes and to rest on their laurels is to court extinction. So cut the pretentiousness, and don't try to speak for me, something you didn't address in the original post.

[Boiny Bunny]

astrallite wrote...

Then they will drop the toolset DLC because it won't adhere to Bioware's high standards.

I take it that's a reference to Blizzard?  Bioware would never do such a thing!

[snackrat]

Normally I try to stay out of these (for lack of a better summation) poo-flinging debates.

BUT: I have to admit that DLC such as the Exiled Prince's most DEFINITELY were being made before the game even went into its final stages (as indicated by pre-ordering bonuses, and the fact the dialogue - one of the first things to be recorded - were interacting with Svael).

While I wouldn't go so far as to say it was REMOVED from the game just to sell it later, some of the team WAS dedicated to that task instead of components of the main game. A shame, since the main game still had many rushed components that could have benefited far more than our parties did from Svael's presence.

Modifié par Karsciyin, 03 mai 2011 - 01:35 .

[Ohpus]

The people upset and spinning conspiracy theories are missing a vital point.

It is in Biowares own interest to provide a toolset to PC users and prolong the shelf life of Dragon Age titles. It goes back to Baldur's Gate, which some people are still playing and which Atari has released as budled disks. There are financial and promotional reasons for them to do so. They support the fan community and the fan community supports them.

That said, its like smoking. Just because it is your self interest not to smoke doesn't mean you will quit. Yes, I am comparing Bioware games to an addiction. Everyone's reaction to a lot of this stuff sounds a lot like withdrawl pains.

Modifié par Ohpus, 03 mai 2011 - 06:54 .

[Rinkusu]

A DA2 toolset should be the first priority of BIoware, especially because of the low interest the game has now. The toolset might be the only thing that might keep players playing this game (in the PC at least, not counting those that say they like it). It's far more important than cr...y dlc items.

[Boiny Bunny]

For goodness sake, this thread is ridiculous. Whatever you might choose to believe about the DA2 toolset, whether it exists or not, whether David knows something about it or not, he is certainly posting in a far more polite and logical manner than most of you that are attacking him blindly.

Do you wonder why Bioware staff don't often bother to post in forums? This thread is your answer.

Sure, I'm not satisfied with Dragon Age 2 for many reasons, but when a developer (any developer) chooses to participate in a discussion, I'd be much more inclined to give them some kind of constructive feedback or get their perspective on something I liked/didn't like - as opposed to insult them blindly or accuse them of something.

[Addai]

Ohpus wrote...

The people upset and spinning conspiracy theories are missing a vital point.

It is in Biowares own interest to provide a toolset to PC users and prolong the shelf life of Dragon Age titles. It goes back to Baldur's Gate, which some people are still playing and which Atari has released as budled disks. There are financial and promotional reasons for them to do so. They support the fan community and the fan community supports them.

That said, its like smoking. Just because it is your self interest not to smoke doesn't mean you will quit. Yes, I am comparing Bioware games to an addiction. Everyone's reaction to a lot of this stuff sounds a lot like withdrawl pains.

I think you're confusing your metaphor a little.  The question is, why isn't Bioware doing something that even the devs agree is in their best interest?

Maybe they will yet.  Here's hoping. 

[Sabriana]

Boiny Bunny wrote...

For goodness sake, this thread is ridiculous. Whatever you might choose to believe about the DA2 toolset, whether it exists or not, whether David knows something about it or not, he is certainly posting in a far more polite and logical manner than most of you that are attacking him blindly.

Do you wonder why Bioware staff don't often bother to post in forums? This thread is your answer.

Sure, I'm not satisfied with Dragon Age 2 for many reasons, but when a developer (any developer) chooses to participate in a discussion, I'd be much more inclined to give them some kind of constructive feedback or get their perspective on something I liked/didn't like - as opposed to insult them blindly or accuse them of something.

I agree. That really does bother me. How often does a person have to state the obvious before it sinks in?

Yes, I'd very much like a toolset. I love the modding communities - everywhere. But why harp on David? He has made it very clear (several times) what his position on the toolset is, and what the limitations of his influence are regarding it.