277 réponses à ce sujet

[elearon1]

Saintthanksgiving wrote...
. While I am waiting for awakenings, they could peddle all kinds of weapon kits and appearence packs to me

While possibly true, I think even they realize that putting out too many item packs is going to make people give up in disgust.  Besides which, there is a point where they, themselves, would have to get sick of producing these things ... and, more importantly, doing so would take away resources from other projects.

If I had a Promise of an Awakening coming down the pipe, I'd certainly leave the game on my computer ... but I think they'd rather not promise too much, too far in advance.  (Just in case)

There are so many games on the market, people can't keep them all on their computers all the time, so anything to make you want to keep DA2 while uninstalling Fallout 3 to make room for the next game is a good idea.

[Saintthanksgiving]

Ariella I'm trying... I really am.

I dont know Teyrn Laidlaw personally, I'm sure he is a fantastic human being. 

But the way he speaks about ORIGINS as if it was ten years ago bothers me.  The way the guy talks, it's asif he was picking the Fallout series out of the bargain bin to start on fallout 3.  Again, this is just my opinion, drawn from the interviews I read.  Maybe he doesnt feel a connection to ORIGINS because it was basically finished before he took over.  Maybe he was pressured by EA to broaden the fanbase, Maybe I'm just a raving lunatic, I dont know.  

At any rate he is the lead designer of DA2 and when I question decisions made in DA2 they are ultimately his responsibility.

plus... I hear he hates puppies

Modifié par Saintthanksgiving, 28 avril 2011 - 02:31 .

[Ariella]

Saintthanksgiving wrote...

Ariella I'm trying... I really am.

I dont know Teyrn Laidlaw personally, I'm sure he is a fantastic human being. 

But the way he speaks about ORIGINS as if it was ten years ago bothers me.  The way the guy talks, it was if he was picking up the Fallout series out of the bargain bin to start on fallout 3.  Again, this is just my opinion, drawn from the interviews I read.  Maybe he doesnt feel a connection to ORIGINS because it was basically finished before he took over.  Maybe he was pressured by EA to broaden the fanbase, Maybe I'm just a raving lunatic, I dont know.  

At any rate he is the lead designer of DA2 and when I question decisions made in DA2 they are ultimately his responsibility.

plus... I hear he hates puppies

Question away, and I think he does feel a connection to DAO, but he's the frontman so he's the one doing most of the interviews and he's the one who ends up pointing out what they tried to do better in DA2. It's a delicate high wire act he's got for himself in doing this, and I'm glad I'm not him in this instance.

I don't think you're a raving lunatic, just passionate about the things you care about, but sometimes it is good to take a step back and realize these people are not out to get you (a general you not specificly you Saint), and they aren't out to destroy gaming as we know it... Wizards of the Coast has already done that

[McAdams]

David Gaider wrote...

Speakeasy13 wrote...
Maybe so on our part. But it's just normative human psychology: take away something from ppl, and they will feel discouraged. If we never had one it'd be more okay, but we had one in DA:O and not in DA2, so it's only natural that ppl are guessing.

I'm not certain how we're "taking something away" when a toolset has never been promised or even hinted at, and was a free extra for DAO primarily available because of the delay of release after the game's completion. Does a free extra for one game mean it's a promise for the sequel? If you believe so, then fair enough, but I'm afraid that so long as something is both "extra" and "free" it's very likely going to be on the "when we can" list.

Is that an official statement? By no means. I think BioWare is well aware that there are plenty of PC users who would love to have such an update. There are also users who would like patches, and DLC, and no doubt a great many other things... so we'll do what we can. That's all I can really say, sorry.

This sounds to me like we will not be seeing any toolset for DA2 at all. It simply is not on their to-do list. And David is right, they never promised us a toolset, we all assumed there will be one. Kudos to our mod community who has managed to thrive in spite of that.

[neppakyo]

elearon1 wrote...

Saintthanksgiving wrote...
. While I am waiting for awakenings, they could peddle all kinds of weapon kits and appearence packs to me

While possibly true, I think even they realize that putting out too many item packs is going to make people give up in disgust.  Besides which, there is a point where they, themselves, would have to get sick of producing these things ... and, more importantly, doing so would take away resources from other projects.

If I had a Promise of an Awakening coming down the pipe, I'd certainly leave the game on my computer ... but I think they'd rather not promise too much, too far in advance.  (Just in case)

There are so many games on the market, people can't keep them all on their computers all the time, so anything to make you want to keep DA2 while uninstalling Fallout 3 to make room for the next game is a good idea.

I am already sick of item/appearance packs. Not going to waste time/money on them, now if there was plans for an awakenings style expansion, but not awakenings price, I might keep da2 around.

I have a 2 terrabyte hd, so I can put a crap load of games on my computer. I have at least 10 installed right now, with plenty of space. With cheap HD's, I dont think space is really a concern. 

Now consoles have a limited amount of space, and a majority of games use that to install onto. At least with the PS3, you can pickup a 1 terabyte laptop style HD and put it in. The 360 takes a bit of modding to add your own, and I think MS has only released what, a 250gb hd?

[Ariella]

neppakyo wrote...

elearon1 wrote...

Saintthanksgiving wrote...
. While I am waiting for awakenings, they could peddle all kinds of weapon kits and appearence packs to me

While possibly true, I think even they realize that putting out too many item packs is going to make people give up in disgust.  Besides which, there is a point where they, themselves, would have to get sick of producing these things ... and, more importantly, doing so would take away resources from other projects.

If I had a Promise of an Awakening coming down the pipe, I'd certainly leave the game on my computer ... but I think they'd rather not promise too much, too far in advance.  (Just in case)

There are so many games on the market, people can't keep them all on their computers all the time, so anything to make you want to keep DA2 while uninstalling Fallout 3 to make room for the next game is a good idea.

I am already sick of item/appearance packs. Not going to waste time/money on them, now if there was plans for an awakenings style expansion, but not awakenings price, I might keep da2 around.

I have a 2 terrabyte hd, so I can put a crap load of games on my computer. I have at least 10 installed right now, with plenty of space. With cheap HD's, I dont think space is really a concern. 

Now consoles have a limited amount of space, and a majority of games use that to install onto. At least with the PS3, you can pickup a 1 terabyte laptop style HD and put it in. The 360 takes a bit of modding to add your own, and I think MS has only released what, a 250gb hd?

I think that's correct, the max HD for Xbox right now is 250gb. Of course my husband is looking at me funny that I managed to nearly fill the 12 gb drive, maybe I can find a 250 for mother's day.

[Saintthanksgiving]

at any rate, You will probably run out of money well before you run out of hard drive space. But we need our lion helmet dont we?

[Ariella]

Saintthanksgiving wrote...

at any rate, You will probably run out of money well before you run out of hard drive space. But we need our lion helmet dont we?

I doubt it, considering the biggest game on my drive is ME2 and that's WITHOUT any of the pay for equipment packs. Just to give you a giggle this is the basic content of my game folder on my Xbox hard drive:

DA2 110 mg
DAO 1.4 G
Fable 2 1.1 G
Fable 3 1.1 G
FF13 2MB
Gauntlet Seven Sorrows 202KB
Ghostbusters 128 KB
Mass Effect 500 MB
ME2 4.8 G
Mega Man 9 (blame my husband) 89 MB\\
Civ Rev (Husband again) 4 MB

ME2 is mostly Arrival/LofSB/Overlord along with the two characters and whatever extras came with CNS when I bought the game new. I also tend to save compulsively so I run out of space quick even when I'm not buying DLC .

[Ottemis]

Saintthanksgiving wrote...

Ottemis, I think that is a very fair assesment, but allow me to retort... a little.


Dragon Age Origins shipped with the toolset included as part of the
game.  People purchased DAO, and the toolset came right along with it.  Many people, even people in this thread said that their purchase of the game was influenced, at some level,  by the inclusion of the toolset.  Other
people said that the toolset added Longevity 
well beyond what the game may have had otherwise.  What I am trying to
say is, the toolset was part of the game that people purchased.

Mr. Gaider maintains that it was a free giveaway, donated out of the kindness of Bioware's heart due to a release delay.  He can say that, and prior to the release of DAO it may have been entirely true.  Once the game shipped however, freebie or not it was part of the game.  A HUGE part of the game. 

I dont think anyone will argue that at some point during DAO's sales, the toolset played a positive role and made Bioware more money. 

To sum it up, if the toolset was a flop you can chalk it up to a "freebie" or a "throw in."
When it contributes to the success of the franchise, it becomes part of the game.

If Bioware ran the numbers, and the money that could be made by trashing the toolset was more than the money in keeping it.... well I guess thats the answer that I am looking for.  Judging by the numbers being thrown around these forums (that I am assuming are accurate for the sake of argument)  They may have chosen poorly.

Now everyone erupt in anger about my disgusting ingrattitude to the Devs who were just trying to do something nice.

... and then dont forget to yell at me again when I say something that might suggest that Bioware shouldnt choose to make as much money as possible, at every single opportunity, regardless of its effect on the fanbase.

Sorry to say, but you're looking a gift horse in the mouth really. It's an ungratefull attitude.
Aside from that, i'd actually not have found it logical to bring out a toolset update now while people have so much content being built for origins still. As said before, the toolset is a kitten not to be touched without wearing gloves. With the similarities in look/feel and the addition of a bundle of community content and items/models, why are people actually this upset?

And your last remark kinda proved itself wrong already didn't it? Using your logic the first toolset would never have existed, or would have costed money.

Modifié par Ottemis, 28 avril 2011 - 02:24 .

[Edge2177]

Keep in mind the original toolset was made during a six month period between PC release, while they worked on the consoles. I'd expect a similar time frame despite my earlier optimism.

[Edge2177]

Oh and to those accusing Bioware, just look at the custom mods. We've already got plenty of people making weapons and armor for free on Dragonagenexus.com. Mad props to the crazy Russian modders too, they're some of the best.

[Sabriana]

While it's true that toolsets only help the PC users, it's also the PC users that need it most. Armor, weapon, and morphing mods are just the dessert for me, I need the modders to  be able to fix system related bugs. Systems vary wildly and so are the bugs that come with it.

I know next to nothing about consoles, all I have is the Wii, but console owners around here have been very helpful in educating me about various functions/quirks/pluses/minuses/etc of the consoles. I might have been reading things wrong, but I came to believe that the consoles are not completely resistant to modding.

Toolsets do extend the life of a game, just look at NWN. They also encourage people to leave the game on their system instead of uninstalling (which I did), simply to try out the newest and shiniest mod. I have no interest in item packs, or better said, I have zero interest in any DLC (from any company), but I always sniff around Exp packs. Awakenings was not to my liking, so I simply passed on that one, especially because it contained bugs that weren't fixed, and because of toolset issues that prevented the modding community to try their hands on that.

Yes, I do understand that they are working on another fix for DA:O (and DA:A) right now, and this is what is compelling me to purchase the UE of DA:O for a few friends as gifts.

(Three cheers for Luke  Huzzah!)

So personally, an updated toolset might compel me to re-install DA 2, but as it is now, I will utilize the freed space for other games.

I know the TS is a freebie, but it also would be in the best interest of the company to release one. I personally know of several people who purchased DA:O for their computer, in addition to their console DA:O when the modders fixed scripts, flags, and a host of other bugs that plagued DA:O. The story/appearance/morphing mods were sweet, but just the icing on the cake for me, personally.

[Merchant2006]

I shall now attempt to reveal the nature of the arguments on both sides here in the thread. And they are pretty much true. Oh and uh, in the form of Abba songs:

Fans: Money Money Money.

BioWare: Take a Chance on Me.

Modifié par Merchant2006, 28 avril 2011 - 12:37 .

[Cutlass Jack]

Saintthanksgiving wrote...

at any rate, You will probably run out of money well before you run out of hard drive space. But we need our lion helmet dont we?

Not the helmet silly. The Shoes! From Orlais! So pretty, not like those ugly things you Fereldens wear. Sometimes a girl just wants to have pretty Lion Feet.

[Rylor Tormtor]

David Gaider wrote...

Speakeasy13 wrote...
Maybe so on our part. But it's just normative human psychology: take away something from ppl, and they will feel discouraged. If we never had one it'd be more okay, but we had one in DA:O and not in DA2, so it's only natural that ppl are guessing.

I'm not certain how we're "taking something away" when a toolset has never been promised or even hinted at, and was a free extra for DAO primarily available because of the delay of release after the game's completion. Does a free extra for one game mean it's a promise for the sequel? If you believe so, then fair enough, but I'm afraid that so long as something is both "extra" and "free" it's very likely going to be on the "when we can" list.

Is that an official statement? By no means. I think BioWare is well aware that there are plenty of PC users who would love to have such an update. There are also users who would like patches, and DLC, and no doubt a great many other things... so we'll do what we can. That's all I can really say, sorry.

Come on David, that is weak. I followed the entire development cycle of DA, back when there was nothing known, and a tool set for the community was always part of the development process, I would assume mostly due to the great success of the NWN tool set and the fact that those people were your main audience. The tool set for DAO was not some consolation prize for missing a date.

You are completely right that I would not have expected a "free"* extra toolset from most companies. I mistakingly had a different impression of Bioware from their previous product releases. I have since re-evaluated my impression. Thank you for encouraging to correct my thinking.

*Of course this implies that the tool-set is not factored into the cost of the game at all, which for a product like NWN, it most certainly seemed that it was.

[FedericoV]

@OP: It's a sad and cold truth but Bioware have dropped the toolset because the modding community was not that alive or interesting. Personally, I believe that DA:O's mods were not that great. Not to say that they were mostly awfull (if not for fixes to the bugs). The only mod I really liked so far was the BG2 Irenicus Dungeon redux mod. Look, BG2 has not any kind of official toolset and people were so fond of it that the modding community is still alive and still putting out content every year.

[David Gaider]

Rylor Tormtor wrote...
Come on David, that is weak. I followed the entire development cycle of DA, back when there was nothing known, and a tool set for the community was always part of the development process, I would assume mostly due to the great success of the NWN tool set and the fact that those people were your main audience. The tool set for DAO was not some consolation prize for missing a date.

No, what I'm saying is the reason the DAO toolset was released with the game (and not six months after release) was because the release of the game was delayed. It was always intended to be released, however, you are quite correct... as a free extra. It was never a part of the core game as the NWN toolset was.

You are completely right that I would not have expected a "free"* extra toolset from most companies. I mistakingly had a different impression of Bioware from their previous product releases. I have since re-evaluated my impression. Thank you for encouraging to correct my thinking.

If you wish to take the lack of confirmation as confirmation of the lack, I certainly won't stop you.

With regards to any kind of potential toolset update there are many issues with regards to third-party software and programming hurdles that would need to be solved in order to provide the community with anything that was remotely useful. I'm sure that, if it can be done, it will.

[TEWR]

so David you're saying that there may be a toolset somewhere down the line? And that the only reason DA:O had one was due to the one year delay where you decided to add it in?

If so, people definitely need to stop saying that there won't be one. But alas, that will never be so.

edit: I used definitely twice in one sentence. Something is very wrong with me.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 28 avril 2011 - 04:50 .

[tiernanlshaw]

personally, i think expecting the devs to spend time and resources on what would be a feature available to only one out of the 3 platforms (and the smallest market of the 3 platforms mind you) is utterly ridiculous. to me the toolset is kind of one of those thigns thats great if you have it, but ridiculous to complain about not having. and personally, i find the notion that you allude to that a great many people bought origins specifically for the toolset equally ridiculous. its great to create your own stuff if you can in a game you enjoy. but if youre making a purchase based on anything other than the notion that you are buying someone elses preconceived work you are making a poor purchase decision in my opinion. besides, your thread is supposed to be about the "fundamental motivation". i believe you were given a more than reasonable response as to that query. if your just bound and determined to ****** an moan regardless well thats your prerogative.

to quote another poster though..... suck it up princess.

[Sabriana]

@ The Ethereal Writer Redux

That's exactly what he's been trying to get across. He, personally, can not confirm the toolset. He's also trying to tell everyone that toolset updates take time.

He did it twice now, and unless I lost my power of reading comprehension, and my English, he also stated that if it's possible to release a toolset, he's sure it will. That's speculation, and that's all he can say. He's the lead writer, not the toolset wiz.

[John Epler]

Sabriana wrote...

@ The Ethereal Writer Redux

That's exactly what he's been trying to get across. He, personally, can not confirm the toolset. He's also trying to tell everyone that toolset updates take time.

He did it twice now, and unless I lost my power of reading comprehension, and my English, he also stated that if it's possible to release a toolset, he's sure it will. That's speculation, and that's all he can say. He's the lead writer, not the toolset wiz.

Pretty much. The amount of influence and impact that a content creator has on the eventual release of a toolset is limited.

I mean, while I'm sure I could offer to help with the programming, I would imagine that a level of competence beyond 'Hello World' would be a prerequisite.

[Rockpopple]

Hello World!?!

*has flashbacks*

*collapses*

[TEWR]

@Sabriana thanks for clarifying

People are just overreacting, reading what they want to read. If it isn't blatantly waved in front of their faces and smells like cookies, it's never going to happen. That just screams to me that they are arrogant and very demanding.

However, a toolset wouldn't do me much good I don't think. I've played DA:O and DA2 on my PS3, simply because my computers are pieces of **** and trying to install the games with PC versions would take too long. It took me two weeks just to install Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri. That was not fun.

wait... why am I here again? oh yeah, I need a way to pass the time =P

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 28 avril 2011 - 04:56 .

[mesmerizedish]

JohnEpler wrote...

Pretty much. The amount of influence and impact that a content creator has on the eventual release of a toolset is limited.

I mean, while I'm sure I could offer to help with the programming, I would imagine that a level of competence beyond 'Hello World' would be a prerequisite.

I understand everything you guise are saying about it, and I'm really grateful that you say anything at all... lack of confirmation is also lack of... un...confirmation? "If we can, we will" is actually nice to hear.

But (and I understand that it's not your call at all), it also puts me in a place of supreme uncertainty, and uncertainty is very uncomfortable. I want to know... are you guise actively looking into a release's feasability? Or is it on your to-do list? What exactly are all the third-party issues to overcome? I want to know all these things!

And I know that you won't tell us, and I understand that completely. BUT I STILL CRY TEARS?