277 réponses à ce sujet

[SirGladiator]

Its ironic that if they had released a toolset, they would've had a big modding community to fix a ton of the bugs/problems that they are currently trying to fix themselves, as the DAO community did for the myriad of issues that we dont even think about anymore because the modders fixed them. We simply think of DAO as an amazingly awesome game, but it had some problems too, not as bad as DA2 but bad enough to be annoying. Modders fixed them nicely, and would've done the same for DA2. That would've led to more sales, and more folks buying DLC, so really not releasing a toolset is just lose-lose for them all the way around, whoever made that decision should've known better, but I guess they just didn't. Oh well.

[oldmansavage]

SirGladiator wrote...

Its ironic that if they had released a toolset, they would've had a big modding community to fix a ton of the bugs/problems that they are currently trying to fix themselves, as the DAO community did for the myriad of issues that we dont even think about anymore because the modders fixed them. We simply think of DAO as an amazingly awesome game, but it had some problems too, not as bad as DA2 but bad enough to be annoying. Modders fixed them nicely, and would've done the same for DA2. That would've led to more sales, and more folks buying DLC, so really not releasing a toolset is just lose-lose for them all the way around, whoever made that decision should've known better, but I guess they just didn't. Oh well.

How are you going to sell them super sweet item packs when you have modders making better?  Soon as the milking process is done and DA2 is pennies on the dollar we'll probably see a tool set.

Modifié par oldmansavage, 29 avril 2011 - 03:24 .

[Big I]

I understand why people are upset about there being no toolset release, but for me (and I assume anyone else playing on console) it's not a big deal. That said I've got nothing but respect for the modding community and I doubt I'll waste money on this DLC.

[Saintthanksgiving]

Lookingglass, I know the toolset issue really doesn't effect the console users.

In a way though, the console users actually have it worse this time around. In DAO,console users had at least SOME options in equipping their companions, now their only choice will be DLC.

PC users can at least hope for a toolset.

Haven't mentioned this in a while but certain lead developers also hate puppies.

[Ariella]

Saintthanksgiving wrote...

Lookingglass, I know the toolset issue really doesn't effect the console users.

In a way though, the console users actually have it worse this time around. In DAO,console users had at least SOME options in equipping their companions, now their only choice will be DLC.

PC users can at least hope for a toolset.

Haven't mentioned this in a while but certain lead developers also hate puppies.

Saint,

I already have three ulcers, are you trying to give me a fourth one?


Actually I found equiping my companions on my console a lot easier this time around. Looking for armor upgrades is much less time consuming that having to remember to change out the armor at however many levels. Now I just have to worry about weapons (except for Bianca of course) and jewelery and belts. Less time spend in the character UI more time doing actual quest, bonus in my book.

[Rockpopple]

I can only speak for myself, but not being able to change companion armor wasn't a big loss for me in Dragon Age II (Console version).

In Origins, I only changed their armour to improve their defense ratings - nothing else. So sometimes I had to bite the bullet and put my companions in stupid looking armor so they'd be less squishy. Now I just go around and find armour upgrades and my companions retain their iconic looks. I can't complain.

For some reason, I'm far less concerned with dressing up my companions than I am making sure MY character is always looking swag. That's why I kept the crappiest default armor on throughout Act I for my Mage Hawke because I refused to have him wear robes. =P

[Nefla]

I didn't like the game enough to want to buy any future DLC, but I thought the basic concepts and designs had enough potential to want a toolset. I'd even be willing to buy the toolset or an extra "special version" copy of the game or something like that.

[Persephone]

oldmansavage wrote...

SirGladiator wrote...

Its ironic that if they had released a toolset, they would've had a big modding community to fix a ton of the bugs/problems that they are currently trying to fix themselves, as the DAO community did for the myriad of issues that we dont even think about anymore because the modders fixed them. We simply think of DAO as an amazingly awesome game, but it had some problems too, not as bad as DA2 but bad enough to be annoying. Modders fixed them nicely, and would've done the same for DA2. That would've led to more sales, and more folks buying DLC, so really not releasing a toolset is just lose-lose for them all the way around, whoever made that decision should've known better, but I guess they just didn't. Oh well.

How are you going to sell them super sweet item packs when you have modders making better?  Soon as the milking process is done and DA2 is pennies on the dollar we'll probably see a tool set.

This again? The Modders themselves have already confirmed that they can make Item Packs without a toolset. They are doing so on DA Nexus, actually.

[Saintthanksgiving]

I'm not arguing the merits of equipping loot drop armor against the static armor in DA2.  I dont think that companion specific armor is necessarily a bad thing.  All that I am saying is that the ability to change little things like armor or weapons increased replayability for me in the original.  I had the choice to do make the game different every time and that feature was removed.

(plus these people wore the same exact thing for ten years.  It was distracting.)

If these features had been removed with the option of customizing the default armors, or a choice between different character specific armors, I probably wouldnt have had such a huge problem with it.

What it looks like at this point, if we are following the Mass Effect example, is that we will be given the option of choosing additional character specific armors in the future. But we will be paying extra for it.

they took something that was included in the price of the first game, removed it, and are ransoming it back to us for  10% of the game price for every DLC.  I dont recall getting a discount on DA2 for all the things that were removed.

[Blood-Lord Thanatos]

Persephone wrote...

oldmansavage wrote...

SirGladiator wrote...

Its ironic that if they had released a toolset, they would've had a big modding community to fix a ton of the bugs/problems that they are currently trying to fix themselves, as the DAO community did for the myriad of issues that we dont even think about anymore because the modders fixed them. We simply think of DAO as an amazingly awesome game, but it had some problems too, not as bad as DA2 but bad enough to be annoying. Modders fixed them nicely, and would've done the same for DA2. That would've led to more sales, and more folks buying DLC, so really not releasing a toolset is just lose-lose for them all the way around, whoever made that decision should've known better, but I guess they just didn't. Oh well.

How are you going to sell them super sweet item packs when you have modders making better?  Soon as the milking process is done and DA2 is pennies on the dollar we'll probably see a tool set.

This again? The Modders themselves have already confirmed that they can make Item Packs without a toolset. They are doing so on DA Nexus, actually.

Persephone, can you PM me with the link to the Frostmourne mod on the nexus? thanks.

The toolset will be done when its done, no doubt. I trust the Glorious Leaders/Developers of Bioware.

[Persephone]

Blood-Lord Thanatos wrote...

Persephone wrote...

oldmansavage wrote...

SirGladiator wrote...

Its ironic that if they had released a toolset, they would've had a big modding community to fix a ton of the bugs/problems that they are currently trying to fix themselves, as the DAO community did for the myriad of issues that we dont even think about anymore because the modders fixed them. We simply think of DAO as an amazingly awesome game, but it had some problems too, not as bad as DA2 but bad enough to be annoying. Modders fixed them nicely, and would've done the same for DA2. That would've led to more sales, and more folks buying DLC, so really not releasing a toolset is just lose-lose for them all the way around, whoever made that decision should've known better, but I guess they just didn't. Oh well.

How are you going to sell them super sweet item packs when you have modders making better?  Soon as the milking process is done and DA2 is pennies on the dollar we'll probably see a tool set.

This again? The Modders themselves have already confirmed that they can make Item Packs without a toolset. They are doing so on DA Nexus, actually.

Persephone, can you PM me with the link to the Frostmourne mod on the nexus? thanks.

The toolset will be done when its done, no doubt. I trust the Glorious Leaders/Developers of Bioware.

Uh...I sure could do that. But I have the link right here:

www.dragonagenexus.com/downloads/file.php

And while I'm linking to awesome DAO mods, try this one:

www.dragonagenexus.com/downloads/file.php (A different Frostmourne may be found here)

[Saintthanksgiving]

and Persephone if you read the entire thread you would have seen that we already acknowledged that the modders havent been eliminated. What we said was, they have a lot more work on their hands making mods compatible with DA2. If making mods is a lot harder to do, less people will bother to do them. Even the people who still do them will probably make less because of the sheer hassle of it.

[David Gaider]

Saintthanksgiving wrote...
and Persephone if you read the entire thread you would have seen that we already acknowledged that the modders havent been eliminated. What we said was, they have a lot more work on their hands making mods compatible with DA2. If making mods is a lot harder to do, less people will bother to do them. Even the people who still do them will probably make less because of the sheer hassle of it.

And you're saying that it would be great if we could make things easier for the modders... or that we're obligated to do so? I'm uncertain which you're actually saying, here.

[mesmerizedish]

Saintthanksgiving wrote...

and Persephone if you read the entire thread you would have seen that we already acknowledged that the modders havent been eliminated. What we said was, they have a lot more work on their hands making mods compatible with DA2. If making mods is a lot harder to do, less people will bother to do them. Even the people who still do them will probably make less because of the sheer hassle of it.

Since this is in reference to Persephone's comment about custom items specifically:

A toolset would not make such content significantly easier to create. A toolset would let us put new items on mini-bosses, but we can add them to your deliveries chest just as easily without a toolset. A toolset would not aid in creating custom models or in getting custom models to work with the game.

[_Aine_]

David Gaider wrote...

And you're saying that it would be great if we could make things easier for the modders... or that we're obligated to do so? I'm uncertain which you're actually saying, here.

Dunno what they are saying, but I know I would think it fantastic!   I'd happily frollic down King Street, at 2am, when sensibly that just shouldn't be done. 

Of course, it is no obligation.  Would it be a fantastic gesture to us creative wanna-be's who love the DA world?  For certain.  I still have my fingers crossed.  And in the meantime, trying to meader all the files as-is, I have my eyes crossed.  

Modifié par shantisands, 29 avril 2011 - 11:48 .

[Saintthanksgiving]

I am saying that Dragon Age Origins provided support to modders. That support added a lot of content to the game which lead to a larger and sustained interest in the game. That support has not, as of yet, been provided in Dragon Age 2. From all of the developer comments that I have read, it is apparently not even PLANNED to be provided yet.

I am also saying that other content was removed from Dragon Age Origins, and is now being returned via "pay as you go" DLC.

Bioware has made it painfully clear that they are not beholden to any imagined obligation of mine to provide "Dragon Age Origins 2"

So no.... I am not saying that Bioware is any more obligated to provide a toolset than I am obligated to purchase Dragon Age or Mass Effect 3.

Modifié par Saintthanksgiving, 30 avril 2011 - 02:01 .

[Ariella]

Saintthanksgiving wrote...

I am saying that Dragon Age Origins provided support to modders. That support added a lot of content to the game which lead to a larger and sustained interest in the game. That support has not, as of yet, been provided in Dragon Age 2. From all of the developer comments that I have read, it is apparently not even PLANNED to be provided yet.

I am also saying that other content was removed from Dragon Age Origins, and is now being returned via "pay as you go" DLC.

Bioware has made it painfully clear that they are not beholden to any imaginary obligation of mine to provide "Dragon Age Origins 2"

So no.... I am not saying that Bioware is any more obligated to provide a toolset than I am obligated to purchase Dragon Age or Mass Effect 3.

Then don't, it'll probably be better for your blood pressure and my ulcers. Video games don't make up the base of Mazlow's hierarchy of needs. And it's not pay as you go. If you want pay as you go look at the F2P MMOs where you have to buy mission packs just to continue progression. DA2 is a complete story, the DLC are optional.

And resources etc have to be allocated on the basis of what is going to effect the most consumers:patches are definately going to be prioritized over a tool set. Would they like to get a tool set out: probably, but neither Bioware not Black Isle put out a toolset for BG and look at all the mods the community managed programming on their own. Same for certain other games that I'll get slapped with a C&D letter for mentioning here, but it starts with a K and was produced first by Bioware then Obsidian.

The answer is out there, just look for it, and it doesn't have to come direct from BW.

Edit: test to see if I CAN edit now, nothing to see beyond this point

Modifié par Ariella, 01 mai 2011 - 02:27 .

[Saintthanksgiving]

Ariella we are going back and forth on the toolset thing, I said the toolset wasnt the only problem I had with this whole thing, it just a part of the overall shift that the franchise has taken. 

If you are telling me to shut up and take my money somewhere else... well I guess that was going to happen anyway.

I would like to believe though that I speak for at least some of the community.  There have been plenty of people that have at least partially agreed with me on plenty of points. 

I can't say that all of them are going to follow me in search of greener pastures, but I'd like to think that the idea gives Bioware some measure of pause in the development of DA3.

[AngryFrozenWater]

I was still hoping that a tool set would be provided. Early BW posts indicated something like "it takes time and most of the work needs to be done on the devs' spare time". Something along those lines. (Edit: I was cool with that. I would really be greatful if the devs were willing to do that.) Then all of a sudden I read that it was confirmed in an interview that the tool set wouldn't make it because it was supposed to be too hard to do and it would be too complex for the modders. That's strange to say the least. Initially there were no objections like that. Was it because that wasn't clear back then, are modders not that clever, or was it just BW's marketing machine that would be damaged when the news was given right from the start?

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 30 avril 2011 - 02:05 .

[Saintthanksgiving]

oh, and about your comment that DA2 is a complete story...

did you read my thread on the Fundamental need for Fundamental Storytelling?

it's all truth, devoid of opinion.

[Ariella]

Saintthanksgiving wrote...

Ariella we are going back and forth on the toolset thing, I said the toolset wasnt the only problem I had with this whole thing, it just a part of the overall shift that the franchise has taken. 

If you are telling me to shut up and take my money somewhere else... well I guess that was going to happen anyway.

I would like to believe though that I speak for at least some of the community.  There have been plenty of people that have at least partially agreed with me on plenty of points. 

I can't say that all of them are going to follow me in search of greener pastures, but I'd like to think that the idea gives Bioware some measure of pause in the development of DA3.

All I'm saying is if there's going to be a toolset, it's not going to happen right now. The read I'm getting is that IF there are resources left over from all the things that need to get done, there's a chance, but it's not a priority.

What annoyed me was your coyness in threating not to buy any more Bioware games if they don't provide a toolset. We've seen those kind of threats here before, and they rarely work. Plus subtle you were not.

And I've read your fundementals of storytelling thread. That's where the first ulcer came from I think.

Were there things I would have done different to tighten up the story and still keep to what they set up, yes. But the story how Hawke ended up at the center of all this insanity is finished. What comes next is what comes next and a different story.

[PainFruit]

May I make a suggestion here? Well, I'm going to anyway.

Charge $5 for the toolset. I'd pay it and I'm not even a modder. When you think about it there aren't that many drawbacks to the idea; you make another nice bundle of cash and those of us who want the toolset get it. The whiny people are going to whine anyway, so why not? I get that the people who would be making the toolset are busy doing other things, but it's something to consider for later.

I also get why they haven't released an updated toolset - it's traditionally free, so they're not making any money out of it and it only appeals to a small percentage of the market - two of the three machines you can play DA2 on can't use it or the content it generates and not all the pc players are interested. That was pretty well established by the ME2 survey with crazy amounts of people playing the default appearance and class.

It may sound like there are a lot of people who want the toolset, but actually it's just a few of us making a lot of noise. It's a shame, but harping on at the actual people who are making the games we love isn't going to achieve anything.

In terms of the "Fundamental Motivation" stuff, I will say that I'm not mad about EA. They do come across as being more interested in your money than your opinion. That being said, it's served them well - they're a huge company with a lot of financial clout. Having them funneling rivers of cash to Bioware so they can make the games is a great thing. I don't know about you, but I don't want to go back to the days of crazy-late release dates and all the other problems they used to have back in the day. If paying a few extra dollars here and there helps fund these games then I am happy to pay. Please, take my money guys, you do wonderful things with it.

It's disheartening to see how many people have completely unreasonable expectations.

[Fernando Melo]

If you'd like to actually find out why we did something like Item Packs, feel free to read here:
social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/260/index/7215354/31#7255515

I've already mentioned several times in the past that a toolset is actually beneficial to the game (and DLC for that matter).  If we could, we would.

Regardless of whether there is a toolset or not (or mods), things like Item Packs have a place in our DLC plan because players want it - simple as that.  

One thing does not invalidate the other.  However, you are free to continue to invent conspiracies and entertain yourselves (as long as it stays on topic, etc etc).

F.

[lltoon]

Persephone wrote...

Saintthanksgiving wrote...

 With the release of Appearance Pack 1 we finally get to the bottom of the mystery of the missing toolset.

• was it a sacrifice made to the gods of developement schedule?  
• was it a casualty of what many people described  as a "consolization" of the series?
• was it being witheld so that the integrity of the core game was protected, at least until the initial sales calmed down?

OR

Was it because the toolset provided free access to content that Bioware could charge you money for?

     Do any of the people who jumped down my throat when i cursed bioware for shoehorning DA2 into a Mass Effect with swords want to chime back in here?

     When people asked why the developers removed the ability to equip companions, the "party line"  was that equipping companions with found items and armor somehow detracted from that character.  Fine.  I didn't like it but fine.

( I happen to think that wearing the same outfit for the better part of a decade is worse.... but whatever.)

Then the first DLC content is released, and shocker of all shockers.... Its a New Outfit for your companions!
... for the low low price of 5 bucks.


This is not, as many PC users feared, a consolization of the series.  Bioware just realized they could squeeze another five bucks out of you.  Before anyone else says it... Bioware is in the buisness of making money.  Good for them. 

1) Link me to a confirmation (official) that there will be no toolset

2) Modders have already made similar packs without a toolset

3) There is no new outfit for the companions within the DLC (I didn't even buy it, but I know that)

1) If Bioware wanted us to have a toolset, they would have given it to us at launch. The toolset is essentially what the programmers are using to design the game (hence, why DA:O was able to release theirs at launch) so it's not like they are building some toolset from scrap.

2) You can mod the game, and you can crack the game and basically do whatever you want with the game legally or ilegally. The point is, the OP was pointing out Bioware's motive to deny a toolset so that they can take advantage of DLC sales. Also note that while many nice mods have been made for DA:2 the biggest limitation of not having a toolset is that only mere recolors of existing skins are possible. You can't design new skins or armor shapes without a toolset, a fact that Bioware took the opportunity to exploit by giving out this alternate appearance pack.

3) This link will have the evidence that the pack changes armor sets for your companions: http://www.airborneg...c-dragon-age-2/

For example:



I'm aware of what Fernando Melo wrote above me, but forgive my skepticism, because I've been fooled too many times by bioware's empty marketing promises and incompetent handling of the bioware store. But don't write off some of our concerns as mere conspiracy theories because that just makes you look arrogant. Point is, this is what Bioware has done, and this is what you look like to the public. If your intentions are genuine, then I suggest Bioware gets their act together and fix their PR image of this mess.

Modifié par lltoon, 30 avril 2011 - 11:14 .

[Saintthanksgiving]

To quote your posts:

Why item packs?
Very simply, these were quite successful in both DAO and ME2 both in terms of sales and also usage data, indicating that the demand is there.  So while we get that a lot of our forum users prefer story content (which we also enjoy, hence also working on that), make no mistake that there is indeed an audience out there that loves to customize their characters as well as do their replays with premium gear, so these have a place in our DLC plan.  And while I would have loved to have us release a story dlc first, see above for why that was not possible.

Regardless of whether there is a toolset or not (or mods), things like Item Packs have a place in our DLC plan because players want it - simple as that. 

Why is there some assumption that I am against DLC?  I dont hate it.   When you remove all other options from the game to Force me to buy DLC however, I am gonna say something about it.

I do not see a ton of item content in DAO that wasnt somehow related to another promotion.  The feastday items are a given, but even return to Ostagar had at least some plot relevance even if it was pretty much an item pack.

Mass Effect 2 is a different story.  Supposing that we are to ignore completely that Draon Age and MAss Effect 2 USED to exist in two completely different genres, Mass Effect 1 had the ability to swap companion armor.  That feature was removed in ME2.  Saying that something was successful in terms of sales is rather convenient when you pretty much stacked the deck in the first place.  I didnt have to buy anything, but the only way I was getting a little variety in repeated playthroughs was by purchasing your content.

but again these are just the nonsensical ramblings of a conspiracy theorist.  You should read my thread on the kennedy assasination.  It's a hoot.