277 réponses à ce sujet

[Sabriana]

PainFruit wrote...

May I make a suggestion here? Well, I'm going to anyway.

Charge $5 for the toolset. I'd pay it and I'm not even a modder. When you think about it there aren't that many drawbacks to the idea; you make another nice bundle of cash and those of us who want the toolset get it. The whiny people are going to whine anyway, so why not? I get that the people who would be making the toolset are busy doing other things, but it's something to consider for later.

<snip>

Ch...charge for the toolset? Oh my g...  *gulp*

Well then, this would most likely result in a firestorm that would frighten even me. I'd go into hiding, and only come out when the "all clear" is sounded.

So may I beg a favor? If there truly is a charge for the toolset, tell me in advance. Just so that I can run and hide in time.

And no, I'd not pay a penny for a toolset. I'd be too po'd.

Want my support? Entice me to purchase good and solid products. I'm no charity, especially not for a company that deals with millions (or billions). That goes for all and every company/corporation/farmer's marked/whathaveyou, btw.

If a company doesn't have what I'm looking for, I'll wish them luck and leave in search for a company that can accomodate my wishes. Simple, really. But that's only my own, personal way of interacting with businesses.

[Elhanan]

lltoon wrote...

1) If Bioware wanted us to have a toolset, they would have given it to us at launch. The toolset is essentially what the programmers are using to design the game (hence, why DA:O was able to release theirs at launch) so it's not like they are building some toolset from scrap.

2) You can mod the game, and you can crack the game and basically do whatever you want with the game legally or ilegally. The point is, the OP was pointing out Bioware's motive to deny a toolset so that they can take advantage of DLC sales. Also note that while many nice mods have been made for DA:2 the biggest limitation of not having a toolset is that only mere recolors of existing skins are possible. You can't design new skins or armor shapes without a toolset, a fact that Bioware took the opportunity to exploit by giving out this alternate appearance pack.

3) This link will have the evidence that the pack changes armor sets for your companions: http://www.airborneg...c-dragon-age-2/

For example:



I'm aware of what Fernando Melo wrote above me, but forgive my skepticism, because I've been fooled too many times by bioware's empty marketing promises and incompetent handling of the bioware store. But don't write off some of our concerns as mere conspiracy theories because that just makes you look arrogant. Point is, this is what Bioware has done, and this is what you look like to the public. If your intentions are genuine, then I suggest Bioware gets their act together and fix their PR image of this mess.

Fooled again, it seems. Even with forewarnings and official decrees, one seemingly places skepticism, prejudice, and their own self-motivated agenda to fabricate information. There are no companion armors in the new DLC; just a few accessories (ie; rings, amulets) for them. All the armor is for Hawke, from every class kit.

*tsk; tsk*

Modifié par Elhanan, 30 avril 2011 - 12:14 .

[lltoon]

Elhanan wrote...

lltoon wrote...

1) If Bioware wanted us to have a toolset, they would have given it to us at launch. The toolset is essentially what the programmers are using to design the game (hence, why DA:O was able to release theirs at launch) so it's not like they are building some toolset from scrap.

2) You can mod the game, and you can crack the game and basically do whatever you want with the game legally or ilegally. The point is, the OP was pointing out Bioware's motive to deny a toolset so that they can take advantage of DLC sales. Also note that while many nice mods have been made for DA:2 the biggest limitation of not having a toolset is that only mere recolors of existing skins are possible. You can't design new skins or armor shapes without a toolset, a fact that Bioware took the opportunity to exploit by giving out this alternate appearance pack.

3) This link will have the evidence that the pack changes armor sets for your companions: http://www.airborneg...c-dragon-age-2/

For example:



I'm aware of what Fernando Melo wrote above me, but forgive my skepticism, because I've been fooled too many times by bioware's empty marketing promises and incompetent handling of the bioware store. But don't write off some of our concerns as mere conspiracy theories because that just makes you look arrogant. Point is, this is what Bioware has done, and this is what you look like to the public. If your intentions are genuine, then I suggest Bioware gets their act together and fix their PR image of this mess.

Fooled again, it seems. Even with forewarnings and official decrees, one seemingly places skepticism, prejudice, and their own self-motivated agenda to fabricate information. There are no companion armors in the new DLC; just a few accessories (ie; rings, amulets) for them. All the armor is for Hawke, from every class kit.

*tsk; tsk*

Actually I haven't been fooled. I've kept my wallet at bay until I can find out what's in this DLC. I'm not the brightest bulb in the box, but I learn.

I don't fabricate information, I just tell what the advert shows to me, and if Bioware deliberately uses vague, misleading and non-specific grammar to imply what's in their products, then it's not my fault for misinterpreting them. I can't scour the internet or check the forums and boards everyday for official announcements or fan forewarnings of the DLC.

I have a self-motivated agenda against deceptive advertising which unfortunately, is what appears to be selling games and their DLC products for Bioware since the DA2 release.

Modifié par lltoon, 30 avril 2011 - 12:55 .

[Persephone]

lltoon wrote...

I have a self-motivated agenda against deceptive advertising which unfortunately, is what appears to be selling games and their DLC products for Bioware since the DA2 release.

Replace DAII with DAO/Awakening (Oh the PROMISES back then....), and you're closer to the the truth.

[lltoon]

Persephone wrote...

lltoon wrote...

I have a self-motivated agenda against deceptive advertising which unfortunately, is what appears to be selling games and their DLC products for Bioware since the DA2 release.

Replace DAII with DAO/Awakening (Oh the PROMISES back then....), and you're closer to the the truth.

I haven't bought DA:O Awakenings, but I'm inclined to agree with that considering the amount of flak Bio got for that one. 

[Sabriana]

They are working on fixes right now for DA:O and DA:A. Rob announced it about 11 days ago, and he and Luke are gathering data.

Here: social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/58/index/7137421

There's another thread about fixes, but I can't find it at the moment. It's at the DA:O forums though.

I don't know if this extends over the consoles, because this thread is in the PC tech section, and I've not really paid attention to the console tech sections.

So I do believe that they are hard at work for both games and the Exp pack.

[Saintthanksgiving]

y'see I drew the same conclusion when I read the advertisement, and everyone jumped down my throat calling me a liar.

not that it matters, because item packs are not that different from appearance packs in the grand scheme of things, but I am glad that I am not the only one who made the "mistake"

Modifié par Saintthanksgiving, 30 avril 2011 - 01:16 .

[Persephone]

Sabriana wrote...

They are working on fixes right now for DA:O and DA:A. Rob announced it about 11 days ago, and he and Luke are gathering data.

Here: social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/58/index/7137421

There's another thread about fixes, but I can't find it at the moment. It's at the DA:O forums though.

I don't know if this extends over the consoles, because this thread is in the PC tech section, and I've not really paid attention to the console tech sections.

So I do believe that they are hard at work for both games and the Exp pack.

Can I just say that this is awesome? (If anyone mentions a button now they'll regret it! )

DAO and esp. Awakening & the DLCs are in dire need of fixes. Good to see they are working on both games.

[Sabriana]

Sabriana wrote...

They are working on fixes right now for DA:O and DA:A. Rob announced it about 11 days ago, and he and Luke are gathering data.

Here: social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/58/index/7137421

There's another thread about fixes, but I can't find it at the moment. It's at the DA:O forums though.

I don't know if this extends over the consoles, because this thread is in the PC tech section, and I've not really paid attention to the console tech sections.

So I do believe that they are hard at work for both games and the Exp pack.

yeah, I know, I'm quoting myself, but anyone who has suggestions should go over there and help Rob and Luke. They certainly are trying to keep the promises they made. I can't see why it would be different with DA2

Aside from that, DA:O's flubs were mostly fixed because the toolset was available for modding beyond morphs and textures. The excellent modders saw to that. Personally, *all* my glitches and mishaps are now fixed. I know it varies, but DA:O wasn't flawed the same way for everyone, just as DA 2 isn't.

I don't own DA:A. I also have no plans to get it atm. I might put DA:O UE on my Christmas list, but not if it contains even a shred of any DRM.

DA:A on the other hand suffers from the toolset incompatibility (other than morphs and textures) as well as DA 2.


Edited to add:

Persephone is a

Modifié par Sabriana, 30 avril 2011 - 01:22 .

[AngryFrozenWater]

Sabriana wrote...

They are working on fixes right now for DA:O and DA:A. Rob announced it about 11 days ago, and he and Luke are gathering data.

Here: social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/58/index/7137421

There's another thread about fixes, but I can't find it at the moment. It's at the DA:O forums though.

I don't know if this extends over the consoles, because this thread is in the PC tech section, and I've not really paid attention to the console tech sections.

So I do believe that they are hard at work for both games and the Exp pack.

I have the same impression. I reported a bug that may impact future DLCs and BW confirmed it and told me it will be fixed in a patch or a DLC. There is a thread full of reports to which Luke Barrett (right?) responds.

Edit: Yup. The one you linked is the one I mean.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 30 avril 2011 - 03:00 .

[Saintthanksgiving]

This thread has nothing to do with game patches for either game. It was acknowledged that the release of DLC has nothing to do, logistically, with the release of game patches. We don't need three reposts of an unrelated link.

[Addai]

Sabriana wrote...

PainFruit wrote...

May I make a suggestion here? Well, I'm going to anyway.

Charge $5 for the toolset. I'd pay it and I'm not even a modder. When you think about it there aren't that many drawbacks to the idea; you make another nice bundle of cash and those of us who want the toolset get it. The whiny people are going to whine anyway, so why not? I get that the people who would be making the toolset are busy doing other things, but it's something to consider for later.

<snip>

Ch...charge for the toolset? Oh my g...  *gulp*

Well then, this would most likely result in a firestorm that would frighten even me. I'd go into hiding, and only come out when the "all clear" is sounded.

So may I beg a favor? If there truly is a charge for the toolset, tell me in advance. Just so that I can run and hide in time.

And no, I'd not pay a penny for a toolset. I'd be too po'd.

Why?  It's a product like any other, and we're being told that it's not in the works due to resource allocation.  Although I pointed out that PC players already paid an extra 10 bucks this time around.

[David Gaider]

Saintthanksgiving wrote...
I am saying that Dragon Age Origins provided support to modders. That support added a lot of content to the game which lead to a larger and sustained interest in the game. That support has not, as of yet, been provided in Dragon Age 2. From all of the developer comments that I have read, it is apparently not even PLANNED to be provided yet.

We did provide support to modders of DAO, yes. It does add content and value (for PC users only, let's not ignore that), which is indeed awesome. As for our plans for DA2, we have not yet made any promises that we would do the same-- only that we would look into it, and because the toolset adds value we'll do it if we can. If we are careful in our words it's mainly because even a hint of more will be taken as an iron-clad promise, one that we aren't ready to make. Anything beyond that is your assumption.

I am also saying that other content was removed from Dragon Age Origins, and is now being returned via "pay as you go" DLC.

We haven't removed anything from DAO. The toolset is still there for those who would like to mod DAO.

Unless you mean that it's a feature that DAO had that DA2 doesn't have? I'll remind you, again, that the toolset was an extra. It was not on the disc, but something we released at the same time which PC users could access. It may have been an extra you were very happy to have access to, and we were happy to be able to provide, but that's not the same as a integral feature. It's not part of the project as, say, a toolset was with NWN.

As for "pay as you go" DLC, DAO had DLC even though it had a toolset. You may suggest you have no option to not buy the DLC, but that's really up to you. A toolset isn't there to allow you to not buy DLC, just as not having a toolset isn't meant to force you to buy it. Considering that two out of three of the platforms we support wouldn't have the option either way, one thing simply has nothing to do with the other.

Bioware has made it painfully clear that they are not beholden to any imagined obligation of mine to provide "Dragon Age Origins 2" [a toolset]

Correct. Just as we were not beholden to do so for DAO.

So no.... I am not saying that Bioware is any more obligated to provide a toolset than I am obligated to purchase Dragon Age or Mass Effect 3.

Excellent. Mass Effect doesn't provide a toolset either, after all. The criteria by which you decide to buy a game is entirely up to you, whether they be extras or not. Insofar as DA2 goes, if we can provide the support to PC modders that you're asking for, we will, and it really goes no further than that.

Modifié par David Gaider, 30 avril 2011 - 04:02 .

[Sussurus]

Sabriana wrote...

They are working on fixes right now for DA:O and DA:A. Rob announced it about 11 days ago, and he and Luke are gathering data.

Here: social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/58/index/7137421

There's another thread about fixes, but I can't find it at the moment. It's at the DA:O forums though.

I don't know if this extends over the consoles, because this thread is in the PC tech section, and I've not really paid attention to the console tech sections.

So I do believe that they are hard at work for both games and the Exp pack.

Ah sorry I wish I did not have to reply to your post, it's not aimed at you or your opinion at all really just the history behind the patch.
This makes them sound nice but I went through what led a patch to be forced out after long hiatus and disinterest in DA:O or its support / issue forum.
A massive major cluster foul up of considerable magnitude related to DA:O, Bioware, EA, and its servers.
A week of non responsive vastly damaging advice and incompetence.

I'm not flaming here, this is me being reasonable in my assessment.
Everyone that was using DA:O at the time was unable to play due to server issues.
 No formal infomation was provided for four days, all support from official sources was contradictory.
They kept giving erroneous infomation out to un install and re install the game....
Despite it being known for days that it was an issue at their end, making a minor issue with some work around for many if proper advice was given.
To a vast issue that they compounded again and again through sheer idiocy is too strong... panic? befuddlement?

I love that they have moved this patch forward, but many at the time stressing that these issues are not new but from the game on release.
Over many years, the only way for them to gain some loyalty back and recover from huge bad press issues was to work on finishing the game that needed it years ago.

They are doing this now and can be given room to show that they are listening.
It does come however very late, and with DA:2 seemingly not in a consistant fashion.

Modifié par Sussurus, 30 avril 2011 - 04:39 .

[naomis8329]

Then my question is:
Will a toolset be offered for DA2 or will the original be adapted to enable modders to mod the game as they would genuinely like to?

Oh and a great thank you for a wonderful story.  I can't wait for the next instalment (which I hope won't be crammed into a DLC as it wouldn't do it any justice at all).

Thank you for writing something that has my imagination in a whirl Mr Gaider.  I read the books whilst waiting for DA2 and was not disappointed (well not majorly in any case lol).

Modifié par naomis8329, 30 avril 2011 - 04:16 .

[v_ware]

This thread is hilarious. Seriously. Both sides arguments. Ridiculous.




But I'll say this: Just perception wise: not releasing a toolset is a bad thing to do (cfr. this thread).

Releasing a mediocre game is too. But then again, Bioware has other franchises and studios. 



Luckily.

Modifié par v_ware, 30 avril 2011 - 04:39 .

[Saintthanksgiving]

David Gaider wrote...

Bioware has made it painfully clear that they are not beholden to any imagined obligation of mine to provide "Dragon Age Origins 2" [a toolset] Correct. Just as we were not beholden to do so for DAO.

I was not referring to the toolset by itself.  I have clarified multiple times that this thread is not solely an issue with the missing toolset, but a pattern of removing content and replacing it with pay as you go DLC.

The removal of the ability to customize your NPC's appearance through in game items was removed.  The loot system from Origins was completely bastardized into something that I cant even figure out.  Even the PC options for equippable armor have been severely limited to basically one set per chapter. 

If loot equipped armors were removed to preserve character integrity, and it had nothing to do with charging for DLC, then I would expect that any alternate appearance packs to be released would be free.  If the motivations for the changes were somewhat more mercenary... then I suspect they will come with a price tag.

What I know right now is that an item pack has been released, and it costs money. 

So we shall see.

-Your friend,
The Spoiled and Ungrateful PC User.

[Elhanan]

Sussurus wrote...

Ah sorry I wish I did not have to reply to your post.
This makes them sound nice but I went through what forced them to go this route.
A massive major cluster foul up of considerable magnitude related to DA:O, Bioware, EA, and its servers.
A week of non responsive vastly damaging advice and incompetence.

I'm not flaming here, this is me being reasonable in my assessment.
Everyone that was using DA:O at the time was unable to play due to server issues.
 No formal infomation was provided for four days, all support from official sources was contradictory.
They kept giving erroneous infomation out to un install and re install the game....
Despite it being known for days that it was an issue at their end, making a minor issue with some work around for many if proper advice was given.
To a vast issue that they compounded again and again through sheer idiocy is too strong... panic? befuddlement?

I love that they have moved this patch forward, but many at the time stressing that these issues are not new but from the game on release.
Over many years, the only way for them to gain some loyalty back and recover from huge bad press issues was to work on finishing the game that needed it years ago.

They are doing this now and can be given room to show that they are listening.
It does come however very late, and with DA:2 seemingly not in a consistant fashion.

The illustration of patience seen here is truly astounding! Bioware's, I mean, as I would simply walk away from the counter from folks like this.

One had to wait a week? ohthehorror....

Given the destruction in Japan, here in the South from twisters, unemployent, sickness, etc, and we are to empathize over some gamers that are impatient over fixes to their games. Really?

* Insert the proper insult of your choosing*

[v_ware]

Elhanan wrote...

Sussurus wrote...

Ah sorry I wish I did not have to reply to your post.
This makes them sound nice but I went through what forced them to go this route.
A massive major cluster foul up of considerable magnitude related to DA:O, Bioware, EA, and its servers.
A week of non responsive vastly damaging advice and incompetence.

I'm not flaming here, this is me being reasonable in my assessment.
Everyone that was using DA:O at the time was unable to play due to server issues.
 No formal infomation was provided for four days, all support from official sources was contradictory.
They kept giving erroneous infomation out to un install and re install the game....
Despite it being known for days that it was an issue at their end, making a minor issue with some work around for many if proper advice was given.
To a vast issue that they compounded again and again through sheer idiocy is too strong... panic? befuddlement?

I love that they have moved this patch forward, but many at the time stressing that these issues are not new but from the game on release.
Over many years, the only way for them to gain some loyalty back and recover from huge bad press issues was to work on finishing the game that needed it years ago.

They are doing this now and can be given room to show that they are listening.
It does come however very late, and with DA:2 seemingly not in a consistant fashion.

The illustration of patience seen here is truly astounding! Bioware's, I mean, as I would simply walk away from the counter from folks like this.

One had to wait a week? ohthehorror....

Given the destruction in Japan, here in the South from twisters, unemployent, sickness, etc, and we are to empathize over some gamers that are impatient over fixes to their games. Really?

* Insert the proper insult of your choosing*

INSERT ANOTHER BAD ARGUMENT.

You're comparing apples to bridges. In case of a game, bugs that bad are a serious problem.

[JabbaDaHutt30]

Elhanan wrote...

Sussurus wrote...

Ah sorry I wish I did not have to reply to your post.
This makes them sound nice but I went through what forced them to go this route.
A massive major cluster foul up of considerable magnitude related to DA:O, Bioware, EA, and its servers.
A week of non responsive vastly damaging advice and incompetence.

I'm not flaming here, this is me being reasonable in my assessment.
Everyone that was using DA:O at the time was unable to play due to server issues.
 No formal infomation was provided for four days, all support from official sources was contradictory.
They kept giving erroneous infomation out to un install and re install the game....
Despite it being known for days that it was an issue at their end, making a minor issue with some work around for many if proper advice was given.
To a vast issue that they compounded again and again through sheer idiocy is too strong... panic? befuddlement?

I love that they have moved this patch forward, but many at the time stressing that these issues are not new but from the game on release.
Over many years, the only way for them to gain some loyalty back and recover from huge bad press issues was to work on finishing the game that needed it years ago.

They are doing this now and can be given room to show that they are listening.
It does come however very late, and with DA:2 seemingly not in a consistant fashion.

The illustration of patience seen here is truly astounding! Bioware's, I mean, as I would simply walk away from the counter from folks like this.

One had to wait a week? ohthehorror....

Given the destruction in Japan, here in the South from twisters, unemployent, sickness, etc, and we are to empathize over some gamers that are impatient over fixes to their games. Really?

* Insert the proper insult of your choosing*

The destruction of Japan has nothing to do with BioWare...

[Sabriana]

@ Addai

A toolset provides support for a pc installed game. It's a free resource for a company. That should be enough payment. Charging for a tool that will be used for extending the life of a game, and for user-made fixes would be like charging for patches, imo.

As I said, I still have NWN installed simply because of the mods. The game's life has been extended and benefits the developer. It is still selling, last I checked it was on GoG.com top 5. Granted, it won't bring them riches, but it is still around, and provided advertisement/name recognition.

the temptation to purchase DLC and Exp packs is greater for a game that is installed and mods will greatly aid in that. Granted, it's for PC only, but we are not *that* small in number.

A toolset doesn't directly benefit the modder, it will only give them satisfaction for work well done, and is also driven by the wish to help other players. The company benefits the most from that. And I do believe that David has stated that as well. Several times.

[Sussurus]

Elhanan wrote...

Sussurus wrote...

Ah sorry I wish I did not have to reply to your post.
This makes them sound nice but I went through what forced them to go this route.
A massive major cluster foul up of considerable magnitude related to DA:O, Bioware, EA, and its servers.
A week of non responsive vastly damaging advice and incompetence.

I'm not flaming here, this is me being reasonable in my assessment.
Everyone that was using DA:O at the time was unable to play due to server issues.
 No formal infomation was provided for four days, all support from official sources was contradictory.
They kept giving erroneous infomation out to un install and re install the game....
Despite it being known for days that it was an issue at their end, making a minor issue with some work around for many if proper advice was given.
To a vast issue that they compounded again and again through sheer idiocy is too strong... panic? befuddlement?

I love that they have moved this patch forward, but many at the time stressing that these issues are not new but from the game on release.
Over many years, the only way for them to gain some loyalty back and recover from huge bad press issues was to work on finishing the game that needed it years ago.

They are doing this now and can be given room to show that they are listening.
It does come however very late, and with DA:2 seemingly not in a consistant fashion.

The illustration of patience seen here is truly astounding! Bioware's, I mean, as I would simply walk away from the counter from folks like this.

One had to wait a week? ohthehorror....

Given the destruction in Japan, here in the South from twisters, unemployent, sickness, etc, and we are to empathize over some gamers that are impatient over fixes to their games. Really?

* Insert the proper insult of your choosing*

Hahaha.. in that context yes, but I'm a small fish with no problems of any global signifigance.
If you like to insert any insult I'm willing to accept it gladly, maybe blame my inability to think beyond my front door as the reason for global disasters.
Did I ask for empathy nope never have never will, from anyone anytime.

All I raised was the simple fact that a product was faulty, it was not handled well.
It may be a game, what about BP? Coca cola? tobacco? Sony? the Orleans levy' the early Tasunami warnings? the faulty safety at the reactors? BI not handling new technology or keeping up on consumer and buisness trends.. etc.
Bad regulation and mishandling of products lead to job losses, enviomental disasters, market crashes.
See I too can think and relate to larger issues, I just don't care.

Modifié par Sussurus, 30 avril 2011 - 05:01 .

[Elhanan]

v_ware wrote...

INSERT ANOTHER BAD ARGUMENT.

You're comparing apples to bridges. In case of a game, bugs that bad are a serious problem.

Not arguing or comparing anything; illustrating priorities. When I see those that have lost entire homes, families, and lives, then look on the forums and witness gaggles of honking geese complain over a game, I find that sad and somewhat irritating.

Please continue to whine, complain, and post tour little, entitled hearts out to a gaming company. But please do not be too offended if others simply do not care to listen at the complaint desk.

[Addai]

Sabriana wrote...

@ Addai

A toolset provides support for a pc installed game. It's a free resource for a company. That should be enough payment. Charging for a tool that will be used for extending the life of a game, and for user-made fixes would be like charging for patches, imo.

I highly doubt that preparing and packaging mod support for the public is free.

A patch allows the game you have to function as it was intended.  A toolset is an extra, and thus more like DLC than a patch IMO.  I won't argue that it adds value to the game, but so do DLCs and we currently pay for these.

I would be willing to pay for that mod support, whether I ever use the toolset myself or not.  I'd much rather do that than buy item packs.  Although I'd still argue that we already have paid for it by being charged the same price for the game as console users.

Modifié par Addai67, 30 avril 2011 - 05:07 .

[Elhanan]

JabbaDaHutt30 wrote...

The destruction of Japan has nothing to do with BioWare...

Wrong again:

http://gamasutra.com...Tsunami_Aid.php

Some actually look beyond their noses occasionally. And while this may not concern you, it affects all of us.

Modifié par Elhanan, 30 avril 2011 - 05:07 .