277 réponses à ce sujet

[Saintthanksgiving]

This discussion belongs on the patch related thread.

[v_ware]

Elhanan wrote...

v_ware wrote...

INSERT ANOTHER BAD ARGUMENT.

You're comparing apples to bridges. In case of a game, bugs that bad are a serious problem.

Not arguing or comparing anything; illustrating priorities. When I see those that have lost entire homes, families, and lives, then look on the forums and witness gaggles of honking geese complain over a game, I find that sad and somewhat irritating.

Please continue to whine, complain, and post tour little, entitled hearts out to a gaming company. But please do not be too offended if others simply do not care to listen at the complaint desk.

I find it curious that you, who knows his priorities so well, are arguing on a game-forum?

Seriously man. Another bad argument. 

[Elhanan]

Sussurus wrote...

Hahaha.. in that context yes, but I'm a small fish with no problems of any global signifigance.
If you like to insert any insult I'm willing to accept it gladly, maybe blame my inability to think beyond my front door as the reason for global disasters.
Did I ask for empathy nope never have never will, from anyone anytime.

All I raised was the simple fact that a product was faulty, it was not handled well.
It may be a game, what about BP? Coca cola? tobacco? Sony? the Orleans levy' the early Tasunami warnings? the faulty safety at the reactors? BI not handling new technology or keeping up on consumer and buisness trends.. etc.
Bad regulation and mishandling of products lead to job losses, enviomental disasters, market crashes.
See I too can think and relate to larger issues, I just don't care.

Point made.

[v_ware]

Elhanan wrote...

JabbaDaHutt30 wrote...

The destruction of Japan has nothing to do with BioWare...

Wrong again:

http://gamasutra.com...Tsunami_Aid.php

Some actually look beyond their noses occasionally. And while this may not concern you, it affects all of us.

And stop pretending you have the high moral ground. It has nothing to do with this discussion and adds nothing to it.

[Sabriana]

@ Addai

Well, I guess we have to disagree then.

I wouldn't be willing to pay because it would set a bad precedent. I also doubt that updating a toolset is all that expensive, and the return for providing one can be great.

I'm not talking morphs and textures, or even models and weapons and what-not. I'm talking mods that fix a broken game. Fixes that still need to be done in DA:O officially. However, they have been fixed by the modding community.

I agree with you on the price for the pc game. It did cost the same as the console game, even though they did not have to pay any fees for the pc game.

[Saintthanksgiving]

Elhanan and V-ware Take the off topic discussion somewhere else

Modifié par Saintthanksgiving, 30 avril 2011 - 05:15 .

[v_ware]

Saintthanksgiving wrote...

Elhanan and V-ware Take the off topic discussion somewhere else

I'm sorry, don't wanna lock your thread.

I'll refer you to my previous stance on this topic:

This thread is hilarious. Seriously. Both sides arguments. Ridiculous.




But I'll say this: Just perception wise: not releasing a toolset is a bad thing to do (cfr. this thread).

Releasing a mediocre game is too. But then again, Bioware has other franchises and studios. 



Luckily.

Modifié par v_ware, 30 avril 2011 - 05:18 .

[Tommy6860]

Sabriana wrote...

@ Addai

A toolset provides support for a pc installed game. It's a free resource for a company. That should be enough payment. Charging for a tool that will be used for extending the life of a game, and for user-made fixes would be like charging for patches, imo.

As I said, I still have NWN installed simply because of the mods. The game's life has been extended and benefits the developer. It is still selling, last I checked it was on GoG.com top 5. Granted, it won't bring them riches, but it is still around, and provided advertisement/name recognition.

the temptation to purchase DLC and Exp packs is greater for a game that is installed and mods will greatly aid in that. Granted, it's for PC only, but we are not *that* small in number.

A toolset doesn't directly benefit the modder, it will only give them satisfaction for work well done, and is also driven by the wish to help other players. The company benefits the most from that. And I do believe that David has stated that as well. Several times.

This^ and I wouldn't pay for a toolset either. But to add and even though Bioware has released two patches, they still haven't  fixed the import save game bug yet. Even though the game is advertised as allowing this aspect, it took one person dedicating herself for about a week, from info-bits gleaned from players regarding choices from Origins that would carry-over into DA2 and still not working, as well as still not fixed officially, to get it fixed. She actually took this info and uplaoded her own little patch that fixed it for the most part and it reflected in my 2nd playthrough. Now, amplify that kind dedication with the release of a true to life toolset and Bioware gets happier players and more than likely, larger game sales on PC and even that reflects as work done for them as they can use the patch info for use in consoles..

[Elhanan]

v_ware wrote...

I find it curious that you, who knows his priorities so well, are arguing on a game-forum?

Seriously man. Another bad argument. 

Currently I am disabled, and unable to leave my home w/o assistance. While I have the internet, I use gaming as my entertainment, and my social interaction. I am unable to drive, but do try and read what has occured in the world. And I recently had to sit in the dark for several hours while a tornado (F-5) took out cities just beyond us here.

Sadly, I was overly concerned over my little spot and circumstance, but am willing to repent (ie; change of mind). I can only use one eye to read due to double vision, yet this old man seems to see more than many here.

Yep; my priorities need fixing, as I am recovering from a stroke. What is your excuse?

Modifié par Elhanan, 30 avril 2011 - 05:22 .

[elearon1]

Sabriana wrote...

PainFruit wrote...

May I make a suggestion here? Well, I'm going to anyway.

Charge $5 for the toolset. I'd pay it and I'm not even a modder. When you think about it there aren't that many drawbacks to the idea; you make another nice bundle of cash and those of us who want the toolset get it. The whiny people are going to whine anyway, so why not? I get that the people who would be making the toolset are busy doing other things, but it's something to consider for later.

<snip>

Ch...charge for the toolset? Oh my g...  *gulp* 

I actually support this idea.  I wouldn't advocate charging more than 5 bucks for it, and perhaps it should come with an instruction manual or something similar to help people get started; or at least a series of links to fan created instruction manuals to help people light their fuse - as it were.  Or even just an added set of armor or item to demonstrate what can be done with it.  My point being, the fact that creating a toolset designed for fan use is resource consuming, so the company should be able to charge for their efforts - but adding something small in addition to just the toolset would also help the charge go down smoothly, so people wouldn't feel quite as horrified about spending the money.

[Elhanan]

Saintthanksgiving wrote...

Elhanan and V-ware Take the off topic discussion somewhere else

Agreed.

[Addai]

Sabriana wrote...

@ Addai

Well, I guess we have to disagree then.

I wouldn't be willing to pay because it would set a bad precedent. I also doubt that updating a toolset is all that expensive, and the return for providing one can be great.

I wouldn't be happy about having a formerly free resource become a paid item, but if it's between that and having nothing, I would happily pony up.  It's the world we live in- airlines used to include meals and 2 checked bags in the ticket price, too, but good luck finding one that does now.

[v_ware]

Elhanan wrote...
Currently I am disabled, and unable to leave my home w/o assistance. While I have the internet, I use gaming as my entertainment, and my social interaction. I am unable to drive, but do try and read what has occured in the world. And I recently had to sit in the dark for several hours while a tornado (F-5) took out cities just beyond us here.

Sadly, I was overly concerned over my little spot and circumstance, but am willing to repent (ie; change of mind). I can only use one eye to read due to double vision, yet this old man seems to see more than many here.

Yep; my priorities need fixing, as I am recovering from a stroke. What is your excuse?

Then I'm truly sorry for you and hope your recovery goes well. *hugs*

Modifié par v_ware, 30 avril 2011 - 05:27 .

[Dubya75]

Saintthanksgiving wrote...

 With the release of Appearance Pack 1 we finally get to the bottom of the mystery of the missing toolset.

• was it a sacrifice made to the gods of developement schedule?  
• was it a casualty of what many people described  as a "consolization" of the series?
• was it being witheld so that the integrity of the core game was protected, at least until the initial sales calmed down?

OR

Was it because the toolset provided free access to content that Bioware could charge you money for?

     Do any of the people who jumped down my throat when i cursed bioware for shoehorning DA2 into a Mass Effect with swords want to chime back in here?

     When people asked why the developers removed the ability to equip companions, the "party line"  was that equipping companions with found items and armor somehow detracted from that character.  Fine.  I didn't like it but fine.

( I happen to think that wearing the same outfit for the better part of a decade is worse.... but whatever.)

Then the first DLC content is released, and shocker of all shockers.... Its New armor and items for you and your companions!... for the low low price of 5 bucks.


This is not, as many PC users feared, a consolization of the series.  Bioware just realized they could squeeze another five bucks out of you.  Before anyone else says it... Bioware is in the buisness of making money.  Good for them. 

Just came across this gem of a post.

I love how you sell your opinions as gospel. Confident and strong! (and your use of italics is pure genius!)

And you know what, I don't much like the item pack DLC either, but it was my choice (as it was yours) to pay money for it. I know, how dare they give us the option!

You've mentioned another profound thing: "Bioware is in the business of making money". I mean... WTF?! Let me tell you, I never knew that! All this time I thought these guys were all working for free. Isn't that just the stupidest thing you've ever heard? That people would actually do something like developing games for MONEY? That's just insulting isn't it?

Oh and they are not going to release a toolset at all? Honestly, I wish I was as smart as you. You seem to know stuff no-one else knows!
Keep it up!

Modifié par Dubya75, 30 avril 2011 - 05:39 .

[Dubya75]

oops

Modifié par Dubya75, 30 avril 2011 - 05:39 .

[Tommy6860]

Addai67 wrote...

Sabriana wrote...

@ Addai

Well, I guess we have to disagree then.

I wouldn't be willing to pay because it would set a bad precedent. I also doubt that updating a toolset is all that expensive, and the return for providing one can be great.

I wouldn't be happy about having a formerly free resource become a paid item, but if it's between that and having nothing, I would happily pony up.  It's the world we live in- airlines used to include meals and 2 checked bags in the ticket price, too, but good luck finding one that does now.

That's not a good comaprison at all. Airlines do that yes, but you're not then aiding the airline farther by taking your baggage and loading it on the planes, allowing for them to lower cost by lessening the need for baggage handlers. Releasing a toolset free, actually benefits the developer as work gets done for free and they benefit from also seeing patches get made out of the expense of others dedication and not from the cost of their paid employees, who can be working on productivity.

[Tommy6860]

elearon1 wrote...

Sabriana wrote...

PainFruit wrote...

May I make a suggestion here? Well, I'm going to anyway.

Charge $5 for the toolset. I'd pay it and I'm not even a modder. When you think about it there aren't that many drawbacks to the idea; you make another nice bundle of cash and those of us who want the toolset get it. The whiny people are going to whine anyway, so why not? I get that the people who would be making the toolset are busy doing other things, but it's something to consider for later.

<snip>

Ch...charge for the toolset? Oh my g...  *gulp* 

I actually support this idea.  I wouldn't advocate charging more than 5 bucks for it, and perhaps it should come with an instruction manual or something similar to help people get started; or at least a series of links to fan created instruction manuals to help people light their fuse - as it were.  Or even just an added set of armor or item to demonstrate what can be done with it.  My point being, the fact that creating a toolset designed for fan use is resource consuming, so the company should be able to charge for their efforts - but adding something small in addition to just the toolset would also help the charge go down smoothly, so people wouldn't feel quite as horrified about spending the money.

Charging for a toolset just creates a whole new realm of legal issues. I can then see where modders would then charge for making mods, which then has the developer screaming on copyright infringements because it is thier resources afterall. Then I see modders telling developers they cannot use their mods for patching info unless they get paid for their work. No way, and charging for it would be the best way to give reason to just simply never allow for free use of a toolset.

[Sabriana]

Tommy6860 wrote...

Sabriana wrote...

@ Addai

A toolset provides support for a pc installed game. It's a free resource for a company. That should be enough payment. Charging for a tool that will be used for extending the life of a game, and for user-made fixes would be like charging for patches, imo.

As I said, I still have NWN installed simply because of the mods. The game's life has been extended and benefits the developer. It is still selling, last I checked it was on GoG.com top 5. Granted, it won't bring them riches, but it is still around, and provided advertisement/name recognition.

the temptation to purchase DLC and Exp packs is greater for a game that is installed and mods will greatly aid in that. Granted, it's for PC only, but we are not *that* small in number.

A toolset doesn't directly benefit the modder, it will only give them satisfaction for work well done, and is also driven by the wish to help other players. The company benefits the most from that. And I do believe that David has stated that as well. Several times.

This^ and I wouldn't pay for a toolset either. But to add and even though Bioware has released two patches, they still haven't  fixed the import save game bug yet. Even though the game is advertised as allowing this aspect, it took one person dedicating herself for about a week, from info-bits gleaned from players regarding choices from Origins that would carry-over into DA2 and still not working, as well as still not fixed officially, to get it fixed. She actually took this info and uplaoded her own little patch that fixed it for the most part and it reflected in my 2nd playthrough. Now, amplify that kind dedication with the release of a true to life toolset and Bioware gets happier players and more than likely, larger game sales on PC and even that reflects as work done for them as they can use the patch info for use in consoles..

That is my thought as well. No, I wouldn't pay. If it was only the player/modding community that benefited from a toolset, then I might re-think it. As it is, I wouldn't pay, heck, I don't even own any DLC, because I refuse to keep paying for a game I already bought.

I don't think that toolsets should be charged for, because if the modders weren't there to fix the annoyances, the clamor for official fixes would be quite loud, and customer dissatisfaction so much higher. That could well have an effect on sales later on, when the next game is ready to be pushed out. Yes, it would only be the PC market that is taken care of, but like I said, the market is not that small.

I know of a few people who actually purchased a PC edition of DA:O because of the modders. I doubt those few people I personally know are the only ones who did that.

Bethesda for example knows very well that they are dependent on the modders. Thus, every game of theirs that I own has a toolset, and thank goodness that is so. They'd be utterly besieged by complaining customers, because their games are quite buggy - usually.

The company (any company) would have to dedicate resources to make those patches and hot-fixes that they otherwise could leave in the hands of the modders. Yes, it would be PC-centric, but they can well look at the mod-fixes and try to apply them to the console patches. I also think (although I can't prove it, it's just a feeling I get when reading the pc support forum) that the pc has a wider variety of problems, because systems vary so wildly. Perfect for a modder who has her or his hands on a toolset.

[Valcutio]

Bioware released the toolset because Brent Knowles was still in charge of the DA series. He knew how to treat the Bioware fanbase.

[AngryFrozenWater]

@Sabriana: Beth is going one step further. They want the 360 and PS3 versions of Skyrim to use PC mods. They are talking with Microsoft and Sony to make that come true. We don't know if they'll succeed, but it does show their commitment and underlines the importance for the company.

[NKKKK]

class A thread

[Sussurus]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

@Sabriana: Beth is going one step further. They want the 360 and PS3 versions of Skyrim to use PC mods. They are talking with Microsoft and Sony to make that come true. We don't know if they'll succeed, but it does show their commitment and underlines the importance for the company.

This is news to me, thank you for the infomation.
It has no impact on myself tbh, but is nice to hear about.

If a CS was payed for dlc I dare say it would be a fine compromise.
It would not appease everyone though, and may raise the issue of mod users not buying the toolset then facing glitches due to downloading files that are not polished or are in need of toolset familiarity.

@Elhanan, I'm sorry to hear your circumstance, I face similiar and lost much to wider issues over the years.
I may have sounded glib, but I tend to react to reaction poorly.
My intent was not to whine but to inform, however I regularly fail to do so for rushed posting, ill thought and basic misunderstanding.
The amount of explainations and apologies to ease feathers from the slightest error is regular for me.
I hope you can at least take in good faith I meant no offense.

Modifié par Sussurus, 30 avril 2011 - 06:52 .

[Sabriana]

Sussurus wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

@Sabriana: Beth is going one step further. They want the 360 and PS3 versions of Skyrim to use PC mods. They are talking with Microsoft and Sony to make that come true. We don't know if they'll succeed, but it does show their commitment and underlines the importance for the company.

This is news to me, thank you for the infomation.
It has no impact on myself tbh, but is nice to hear about.

If a CS was payed for dlc I dare say it would be a fine compromise.
It would not appease everyone though, and may raise the issue of mod users not buying the toolset then facing glitches due to downloading files that are not polished or are in need of toolset familiarity.

@Elhanan, I'm sorry to hear your circumstance, I face similiar and lost much to wider issues over the years.
I may have sounded glib, but I tend to react to reaction poorly.
My intent was not to whine but to inform, however I regularly fail to do so for rushed posting, ill thought and basic misunderstanding.
The amount of explainations and apologies to ease feathers from the slightest error is regular for me.
I hope you can at least take in good faith I meant no offense.

Oh wow. That's great, at least they're trying. I hope they succeed. I always felt bad that the consoles lost out on so many good mods, expecially bug/glitch fixes.


@ Sussurus

I still don't think that a toolset should be charged for. It reeks of super-greed. Especially when the modders do nothing but enhance the game, and make it more enticing. Oh well, I guess we have to disagree on that one.

Btw, I don't know what the reason was for the new patch announcement for DA:O, but at least they are patching it, and DA:A with it. Especially because DA:A cannot use the DA:O toolset for bug-fixes. It would need an updated one, like DA 2 does.

So it wouldn't even be a brand new toolset, just an updated one.

[Addai]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

@Sabriana: Beth is going one step further. They want the 360 and PS3 versions of Skyrim to use PC mods. They are talking with Microsoft and Sony to make that come true. We don't know if they'll succeed, but it does show their commitment and underlines the importance for the company.

Bioware tried to do that for Origins, too (link).  So, good luck with that.

Modifié par Addai67, 30 avril 2011 - 07:30 .

[Addai]

Tommy6860 wrote...

That's not a good comaprison at all. Airlines do that yes, but you're not then aiding the airline farther by taking your baggage and loading it on the planes, allowing for them to lower cost by lessening the need for baggage handlers. Releasing a toolset free, actually benefits the developer as work gets done for free and they benefit from also seeing patches get made out of the expense of others dedication and not from the cost of their paid employees, who can be working on productivity.

So compare it to pumping your own gas or checking out/ bagging your own groceries if you prefer.  Yes, that is here or on the way, too.  I'm saying, companies are learning that they can get customers to pay per-item fees more readily than they can include lots of swag under a higher selling price.  Of course, this time we had the higher SP and none of the swag. 

So you want something for nothing?  You can ask, but what's it really worth to you?