277 réponses à ce sujet

[David Gaider]

I was not referring to the toolset by itself.  I have clarified multiple times that this thread is not solely an issue with the missing toolset, but a pattern of removing content and replacing it with pay as you go DLC.

Where your supposition breaks down is this: if DLC did not exist, that does not mean that the things you can get with DLC would suddenly be in the game instead. That's not so. Things do not get created, and then removed and sold. The possibility for extra revenue, however, does provide the company an incentive to create extra content.

This has nothing to do with the toolset, and if that's also your position than I'm not sure why you keep bringing it up. The creation of a toolset will depend on whether we will have the programming resources to devote to it-- not to mention the ability to resolve third-party licensing issues. Programming resources aren't needed for DLC -- DLC is content creation. Just because you can create content with it doesn't impact who among us needs to do the work . Completely different matter.

If you wish to blend them together as some kind of conspiracy theory as to why we're not providing you the extras you want, that's really your business-- but it won't convince us to provide them any more quickly. We'd love to provide a toolset. As mentioned before, by us as well as other posters, it allows users to provide value to other users. Thus we'll go out of our way to prioritize it, regardless of the number of users it actually benefits. We won't, however, make promises about it.

-Your friend,
The Spoiled and Ungrateful PC User.

To be clear, I neither consider you spoiled nor ungrateful. It would be helpful, however, if you didn't try making baseless accusations for not giving you what you want. That certainly makes you seem spoiled and ungrateful. PC modders don't deserve such a champion, however, as they've proven themselves resourceful and generally grateful for whatever help we can give them to mod a game that they enjoy.

I'd suggest simply making it very clear to BioWare how much you'd really like to see a toolset update and how beneficial it would be. We know this, of course, but it never hurts to make your desires heard so they don't get lost in the shuffle. Beyond that, as Fernando said, we shall see what we can do.

Modifié par David Gaider, 30 avril 2011 - 08:15 .

[_Aine_]

David Gaider wrote...

I'd suggest simply making it very clear to BioWare how much you'd really like to see a toolset update and how beneficial it would be. We know this, of course, but it never hurts to make your desires heard so they don't get lost in the shuffle. Beyond that, as Fernando said, we shall see what we can do.

This is fantastic.  Seriously.  Just knowing that it is being considered, is good. For me anyway.  

Now as for the "removing content and selling it as DLC" accusation....  Ummm, who cares if they did?  It would hardly be the first time in history that content is cut from a game and then offered as DLC.  IF it occurs (and that is a pretty big IF) it isn't as though it is a big conspiracy, it could simply be content that would be *deleted* or you can have said content *if you want it* as DLC.  Who cares really?  For people that really like the title, if the cost is decent enough for the quality you are getting...ummm, so?  If I don't want something, I don't buy it.  Other people wanting it is not affecting my game, or lessening the value of my game or experience.  

This is kind of same way I view the ability to mod though.  I appreciate it because it allows me to expland my experience in other ways, through the creativity of the fan-base.  I made the decision to repurchase DAO on PC even though we had it on PS3 so I *could* do that and it expanded my enjoyment of an already fantastic game, and then convinced my husband to do the same!  Do I feel *owed* the toolset? No.  Would I *love* having it available?  Absolutely.  Would I give up the toolset if I knew it was taking resources from DA3?  Sure.  I would cry and go get a good bottle of wine and then get over it.    Probably in that order too.  

Modifié par shantisands, 30 avril 2011 - 08:45 .

[Leoroc]

JohnEpler wrote...

Sabriana wrote...

@ The Ethereal Writer Redux

That's exactly what he's been trying to get across. He, personally, can not confirm the toolset. He's also trying to tell everyone that toolset updates take time.

He did it twice now, and unless I lost my power of reading comprehension, and my English, he also stated that if it's possible to release a toolset, he's sure it will. That's speculation, and that's all he can say. He's the lead writer, not the toolset wiz.

Pretty much. The amount of influence and impact that a content creator has on the eventual release of a toolset is limited.

I mean, while I'm sure I could offer to help with the programming, I would imagine that a level of competence beyond 'Hello World' would be a prerequisite.

You can get a job writing for games with just Hello World? I was going to school for Game Design but dropped out because it had all these programming and art requirements that were beyond my ability...

[Saintthanksgiving]

What I am saying is, a large amount of non-DLC things did exist in ORIGINS, and they did not return in the sequel.  I dont think content was created for DA2 and then removed to be sold later.  DA2 was designed without this content, with the intent of selling it to the player later. 

The content in question was included in the original purchase price of DAO.

Calling me a conspiracy theorist is really giving me too much credit.  It doesnt take an ultra paranoid genius to figure out that, especially following the success of ME2, a marketing analyst working for Bioware (or EA depending on your particular prejudice) saw that a large amount of money could be made by doing this.

so, to sum up, I remain only a mildly paranoid genius.

As far as me being a Champion of the forgotten and downtrodden fans. 

"I may not be the Hero that Dragon Age deserves, but I am the one it needs right now."

Modifié par Saintthanksgiving, 30 avril 2011 - 08:54 .

[They call me a SpaceCowboy]

Saintthanksgiving wrote...


What I am saying is, a large amount of non-DLC things did exist in ORIGINS, and they did not return in the sequel.  I dont think content was created for DA2 and then removed to be sold later.  DA2 was designed without this content, with the intent of selling it to the player later. 

The content in question was included in the original purchase price of DAO.

Calling me a conspiracy theorist is really giving me too much credit.  It doesnt take an ultra paranoid genius to figure out that, especially following the success of ME2, a marketing analyst working for Bioware (or EA depending on your particular prejudice) saw that a large amount of money could be made by doing this.

so, to sum up, I remain only a mildly paranoid genius.

As far as me being a Champion of the forgotten and downtrodden fans. 

"I may not be the Hero that Dragon Age deserves, but I am the one it needs right now."

I think you are on to something. Not so much the toolset, but I think some of the changes, like companion armour, were a direct result of seeing that item armour packs for companions in ME2 sold well.

[xCirdanx]

Well, it certainly is a sad thing!

Modding has kept Bioware games alive for many many years, BG, NWN, DA:O...all have great mods and communities behind them.

Of course it´s a fan service, so i wouldn´t count on it.

[CaptainBlackGold]

Thank you Mr. Gaider for the updates. For what it is worth, the few mods currently available have kept me playing DA:2 after an initial run-through. I am not a "DA Hater" but there were some design decisions that left me, well, luke-warm might be the best way to phrase it. Already, modders have allowed me to tweak the game considerably increasing my enjoyment of it as well as ensuring that I pay very close attention to any DLC you guys come up with. If I buy any DLC, it will be because modders have kept me interested in the game. Therefore, the sooner an update to the tool set is released (if it can be), then the more likely I will still be in the market for some new material.

But hey, I am just one customer. But other games are coming out over the next few months - and though a certified Bio FanBoy - it is possible that something new and shiney might catch my eye and...

[Walker White]

David Gaider wrote...

Where your supposition breaks down is this: if DLC did not exist, that does not mean that the things you can get with DLC would suddenly be in the game instead. That's not so. Things do not get created, and then removed and sold. The possibility for extra revenue, however, does provide the company an incentive to create extra content.

In general, I actually understand and agree with this observation.

However, I think there is a lot of bad blood over Warden's Keep, particularly with the chest. There was no way to store items in the normal version of DA:O, even though this is a fairly standard and accepted feature in a loot-heavy RPG. Now, maybe it was very hard to implement a storage solution in the early Eclipse Engine, and so that was delayed due to budget reasons.  

But the appearance of a storage chest in day one paid DLC seemed mighty suspicious.

[CaptainBlackGold]

Walker White wrote...

[But the appearance of a storage chest in day one paid DLC seemed mighty suspicious.

As I recall, I believe that it was a Bioware Developer who created a mod for a storage container in the camp and offered it very quickly after release (like within a day or so). The lack of storage in the original game was most likely an oversight - not a conspiracy to withhold something.

[Walker White]

CaptainBlackGold wrote...

As I recall, I believe that it was a Bioware Developer who created a mod for a storage container in the camp and offered it very quickly after release (like within a day or so). The lack of storage in the original game was most likely an oversight - not a conspiracy to withhold something.

But it was not available to those of us on the consoles.  So on the console we had to pay.  And while some of the boards may think that is fine punishment for playing on a console, there are legitimate reasons for why some of us prefer to play games on a console whenever possible (in my case, it allows me to play while still being social with my family).

[CaptainBlackGold]

Walker White wrote...

[snip}] But it was not available to those of us on the consoles.  So on the console we had to pay.  And while some of the boards may think that is fine punishment for playing on a console, there are legitimate reasons for why some of us prefer to play games on a console whenever possible (in my case, it allows me to play while still being social with my family).

In the words of a former President; "I feel your pain..." The down side to a console is that modding is extremely limited, and expensive for the game developer. However, the issue was whether Bioware deliberately withheld someting to then sell it as a part of a DLC or  the lack of storage was an oversight.

The evidence seems to point to "oversight" because they offered a free download, to those who could use it. They cannot offer such mods to consoles because (I believe) they are charged by the console makers for every mod/update/patch (and there may be other technical reasons why).

In short, there is no evidence that they ever intended to "nickle and dime" their consumers.

I agree that you console people got the short end of the stick on this one - but I think it is better explained as bad circumstances rather than bad motives.

[David Gaider]

Saintthanksgiving wrote...
What I am saying is, a large amount of non-DLC things did exist in ORIGINS, and they did not return in the sequel.  I dont think content was created for DA2 and then removed to be sold later.  DA2 was designed without this content, with the intent of selling it to the player later. 

The content in question was included in the original purchase price of DAO.

Calling me a conspiracy theorist is really giving me too much credit.  It doesnt take an ultra paranoid genius to figure out that, especially following the success of ME2, a marketing analyst working for Bioware (or EA depending on your particular prejudice) saw that a large amount of money could be made by doing this.

so, to sum up, I remain only a mildly paranoid genius.

As far as me being a Champion of the forgotten and downtrodden fans. 

"I may not be the Hero that Dragon Age deserves, but I am the one it needs right now."

As far as I can tell, it doesn't take a genius to add 1 and 1 together and get 3. But have fun being a bolded-and-underlined Champion, I guess. Hopefully that works out for you.

Modifié par David Gaider, 01 mai 2011 - 12:44 .

[AngryFrozenWater]

I'd suggest simply making it very clear to BioWare how much you'd really like to see a toolset update and how beneficial it would be. We know this, of course, but it never hurts to make your desires heard so they don't get lost in the shuffle. Beyond that, as Fernando said, we shall see what we can do.

What do you want? People on their knees for you? Why can't you just for once make a mature post? Be comiited to modding or not. That's a damn silly requirement for something that your company benefits from in the first place.

[Walker White]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

I'd suggest simply making it very clear to BioWare how much you'd really like to see a toolset update and how beneficial it would be. We know this, of course, but it never hurts to make your desires heard so they don't get lost in the shuffle. Beyond that, as Fernando said, we shall see what we can do.

What do you want? People on their knees for you? Why can't you just for once make a mature post? Be comiited to modding or not. That's a damn silly requirement for something that your company benefits from in the first place.

Do you understand how publicly held companies and shareholders work?

[AngryFrozenWater]

Walker White wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

I'd suggest simply making it very clear to BioWare how much you'd really like to see a toolset update and how beneficial it would be. We know this, of course, but it never hurts to make your desires heard so they don't get lost in the shuffle. Beyond that, as Fernando said, we shall see what we can do.

What do you want? People on their knees for you? Why can't you just for once make a mature post? Be comiited to modding or not. That's a damn silly requirement for something that your company benefits from in the first place.

Do you understand how publicly held companies and shareholders work?

I am a gamer. Not a stockholder. If I change my mind, I'll make sure I'll come to you for advice. Ghehe.

Edit: BW dreamed up those benefits. Not me. Get informed.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 01 mai 2011 - 02:02 .

[Tommy6860]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

@Sabriana: Beth is going one step further. They want the 360 and PS3 versions of Skyrim to use PC mods. They are talking with Microsoft and Sony to make that come true. We don't know if they'll succeed, but it does show their commitment and underlines the importance for the company.

Is that really true with Bethesda? I actually can see it working more on the consoles for making the games more versatile and fun, but if going by Sony and especially MS, it would be very limited as to the extent of what can be made, let alone shared. Knowing MS, they would charge an annual fee to be able to use the toolset, like being a Gold member with XBL. Or the toolset is free, but it would cost a 'subscription' to share or 'pay per share' of the mods or mod sets.

Having said that, there are games on the 360 that actually have mini-mod modes built in them where you can tweak gameplay, create areas, weapons, etc, though limited. But it can be done. They can be shared with friends on the Live network. If allowed, I wonder how much this would affect PC gaming. Would some PC gamers abandon the platform and go console?

[AngryFrozenWater]

Tommy6860 wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

@Sabriana: Beth is going one step further. They want the 360 and PS3 versions of Skyrim to use PC mods. They are talking with Microsoft and Sony to make that come true. We don't know if they'll succeed, but it does show their commitment and underlines the importance for the company.

Is that really true with Bethesda? I actually can see it working more on the consoles for making the games more versatile and fun, but if going by Sony and especially MS, it would be very limited as to the extent of what can be made, let alone shared. Knowing MS, they would charge an annual fee to be able to use the toolset, like being a Gold member with XBL. Or the toolset is free, but it would cost a 'subscription' to share or 'pay per share' of the mods or mod sets.

Having said that, there are games on the 360 that actually have mini-mod modes built in them where you can tweak gameplay, create areas, weapons, etc, though limited. But it can be done. They can be shared with friends on the Live network. If allowed, I wonder how much this would affect PC gaming. Would some PC gamers abandon the platform and go console?

A construction set (Beth's name for a tool set) is not required to run mods. And thus no console player will ever need the construction set. It would work just like regular DLCs, except they would be free.

PCs would simply allow gamers to create mods like they did before (using the construction set). I am sure that they love console players to benefit from it. I made mods before. I wouldn't mind and I doubt many others would. PC gamers like me are just people who love to play on PCs and only a few kids have this PC/console war thing going on. If the company is charging for it then that would be a different situation. In that case I would suspect that modders want a piece of the pie or absolute nothing to do with it. But fortunately nothing indicates that Beth wants to go that route.

And yes it is really true. Why should I lie?

Source: Bethesda Wants Skyrim Mods on Consoles.

Edit: What Beth wants from Microsoft and Sony is an infrastructure that allows PC mods to find their way to the consoles. Microsoft and Sony want those mods to be safe, because they don't want their platforms to be hacked or become unstable. And thus Beth needs a construction set that can deliver such safe mods. And there is also the problem of cost. Who is going to pay for delivering the mods (bandwidth/infrastructure), or do the companies involved see it as beneficial to sales? Beth still sells Oblivion and its DLCs - even after half a decade - because of modding. We have to see how this all works out.

BioWare also believes that modding is beneficial to them. One point mentioned was that because players don't abandon the game soon they can also sell more DLCs in the long run. IIRC that statement was made as a counter argument to: Mods will kill DLCs.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 01 mai 2011 - 02:50 .

[Plaintiff]

Regardless of whether or not the toolset is dropped, it shouldn't be a priority anyway. Dragon Age is a multi-platform series and a toolset is currently only useful to the portion of the fanbase that play on PC and have the knowledge required to make game mods.

[Saintthanksgiving]

and the ability to customize your experience through loot items and companion armors? That's something that was lost on all three platforms.

If paying extra for these items doesn't bother you, Well I'm glad you enjoyed the game Plaintiff, I almost wish I felt the same way.




by the way, I have a new signature.

Modifié par Saintthanksgiving, 01 mai 2011 - 02:43 .

[Tommy6860]

Addai67 wrote...

Tommy6860 wrote...

That's not a good comaprison at all. Airlines do that yes, but you're not then aiding the airline farther by taking your baggage and loading it on the planes, allowing for them to lower cost by lessening the need for baggage handlers. Releasing a toolset free, actually benefits the developer as work gets done for free and they benefit from also seeing patches get made out of the expense of others dedication and not from the cost of their paid employees, who can be working on productivity.

So compare it to pumping your own gas or checking out/ bagging your own groceries if you prefer.  Yes, that is here or on the way, too.  I'm saying, companies are learning that they can get customers to pay per-item fees more readily than they can include lots of swag under a higher selling price.  Of course, this time we had the higher SP and none of the swag. 

So you want something for nothing?  You can ask, but what's it really worth to you?

See, you're interpreting that I actually do want something for nothng, and that is simply not the case.

Pumping my own gas made gas cheaper than having more employees having to work pumping it for me, with the cost get passed on. Bagging my own groceries makes the store items cheaper because they are not paying employees to bag it for me.  See how that benefits me? You're suggesting to pay for something that already exist as I already paid full price for the game. It isn't like I got the game free of charge.

Anyway, see what I mean by not having Bioware have to pay their work force to make mods and patches, while they also see what these fixes do and then can possibly be used as console patches or as an example of the fix? Now you want to charge modders for a toolset, Bioware benefits from the use of the mods created by the toolset they charged for, all the while not having had their own employees fix the bugs that were created by them saving them the cost of their own employees making the fixes; sorry, that just doesn't add up, especially on ethics. I already gave an example earlier in this thread, where one person
without the toolset made a patch to fix the broken save import that was
actually a feature advertised as part of DA2, yet Bioware still hasn't fixed this officially. There are still bugs and the game is near two months on. If you think it is right, that is fine, but we'll just have to agree to disagree with each other.

:)

[jds1bio]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

I'd suggest simply making it very clear to BioWare how much you'd really like to see a toolset update and how beneficial it would be. We know this, of course, but it never hurts to make your desires heard so they don't get lost in the shuffle. Beyond that, as Fernando said, we shall see what we can do.

What do you want? People on their knees for you? Why can't you just for once make a mature post? Be comiited to modding or not. That's a damn silly requirement for something that your company benefits from in the first place.

I think he meant in the statement you quoted (along with the rest of the context in his post) that instead of the poster being a conspiracy theorist, just come out and say how much you'd like to see a toolset.

As for being committed to something vs. announcing it, consider this: your favorite console maker may announce two years from now, that the next console is going to be the NXT-9000 and it's coming out a year from the announcement.  Just because they announce this two years from now doesn't mean that they're not committed to it today.

Crytek's recent SDK announcement is probably an even more-fitting example.  They didn't announce an SDK or toolset before or during Crysis 2's launch.  But that didn't mean that they weren't committed to it at that time, they obviously were.

[Ariella]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

I'd suggest simply making it very clear to BioWare how much you'd really like to see a toolset update and how beneficial it would be. We know this, of course, but it never hurts to make your desires heard so they don't get lost in the shuffle. Beyond that, as Fernando said, we shall see what we can do.

What do you want? People on their knees for you? Why can't you just for once make a mature post? Be comiited to modding or not. That's a damn silly requirement for something that your company benefits from in the first place.

Angry,

I understand your feelings, but David has a point. The more EA/Bioware recieves positive messages about how gamers want this, the better chance it'll get devoted the resources needed to do it, and unless Bethesada or someone else actually opens the way for user made mods on XboxLive or PSN (which I have my doubts about as DLC is just as lucrative if not more so for the networks since both sides have to pay them) a modding tool is going to be lower on the list of priorities.

[AngryFrozenWater]

Ariella wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

I'd suggest simply making it very clear to BioWare how much you'd really like to see a toolset update and how beneficial it would be. We know this, of course, but it never hurts to make your desires heard so they don't get lost in the shuffle. Beyond that, as Fernando said, we shall see what we can do.

What do you want? People on their knees for you? Why can't you just for once make a mature post? Be comiited to modding or not. That's a damn silly requirement for something that your company benefits from in the first place.

Angry,

I understand your feelings, but David has a point. The more EA/Bioware recieves positive messages about how gamers want this, the better chance it'll get devoted the resources needed to do it, and unless Bethesada or someone else actually opens the way for user made mods on XboxLive or PSN (which I have my doubts about as DLC is just as lucrative if not more so for the networks since both sides have to pay them) a modding tool is going to be lower on the list of priorities.

Mr Gaider has no point. If he tells in that phrase that BW knows the benefits and wants to hear that from us then he needs to grow up. I find that insulting. He is good at that lately.

[Ariella]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Ariella wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

I'd suggest simply making it very clear to BioWare how much you'd really like to see a toolset update and how beneficial it would be. We know this, of course, but it never hurts to make your desires heard so they don't get lost in the shuffle. Beyond that, as Fernando said, we shall see what we can do.

What do you want? People on their knees for you? Why can't you just for once make a mature post? Be comiited to modding or not. That's a damn silly requirement for something that your company benefits from in the first place.

Angry,

I understand your feelings, but David has a point. The more EA/Bioware recieves positive messages about how gamers want this, the better chance it'll get devoted the resources needed to do it, and unless Bethesada or someone else actually opens the way for user made mods on XboxLive or PSN (which I have my doubts about as DLC is just as lucrative if not more so for the networks since both sides have to pay them) a modding tool is going to be lower on the list of priorities.

Mr Gaider has no point. If he tells in that phrase that BW knows the benefits and wants to hear that from us then he needs to grow up. I find that insulting. He is good at that lately.

Angry, he's adressing Saint, not general public. If Saint really wants a toolset, that his er odd commentary isn't helping.