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Should I kill The Rachni Or Not?


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#26
CeoBohga

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Krogans didn't suffer their fate because of the Rachni. They suffered their fate because of the council races (particularly the salarians and turians). From all the entries in the codex and from comments in game, I can't find a single instance of the Rachni committing genocide. Just murder and conquest (which all the species are guilty of except for maybe the Hanar). The council on the other hand... Genocide seems to be the go to solution. So tell me why I should kill off the last hope of a species' revival who themselves as an individual committed no crime? If we're going to commit genocide, shouldn't we instead be killing off the Turians for deploying the genophage, the Salarians for developing it and the Asari for approving it? I'd almost add Krogans to the list, but with them being uplifted solely to fight the Rachni, only to be later cursed with the genophage by those who used them, they've probably been punished enough.

#27
lolwut666

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Follow your heart.

#28
Autoclave

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CeoBohga wrote...

Krogans didn't suffer their fate because of the Rachni. They suffered their fate because of the council races (particularly the salarians and turians). From all the entries in the codex and from comments in game, I can't find a single instance of the Rachni committing genocide. Just murder and conquest (which all the species are guilty of except for maybe the Hanar). The council on the other hand... Genocide seems to be the go to solution. So tell me why I should kill off the last hope of a species' revival who themselves as an individual committed no crime? If we're going to commit genocide, shouldn't we instead be killing off the Turians for deploying the genophage, the Salarians for developing it and the Asari for approving it? I'd almost add Krogans to the list, but with them being uplifted solely to fight the Rachni, only to be later cursed with the genophage by those who used them, they've probably been punished enough.


       I am amazed what an awesome job Bioware did with rachni queen that so many ppl have different opinions on whether let her live or not. This is the way I see this:

      When deciding the fate of potentially extremely agressive species that basically compete with every other aliens in the galaxy there is no room for judgement based on individual innocence:

Is the queen innocent? Yes!
Are her offsprings potential killers? Yes!
Has the agrression from this species occured in the past? Yes!
Did Rachni show any intention on peaceful coexistence with the rest of the galaxy? No
Does the new Rachni Queen have anything that would make her behave different compared to her ancestors? No. No genes altered, nothing. Her personal experience is one of detained and experimented on being. Why would she be a "good" rachni? Because Shepard freed her? 

So as you see, there is really no room for invidual innocence judgement here. 
Actually, you can regard killing the rachni queen both a paragon :innocent: and a renegade :devil: action at the same time.

As a paragon I kill the Queen because I want to end her suffering and loneliness while leaving the galaxy a safer place for the rest of the inhabitants. By killing the rachni you are merely respecting the decision that council did long ago: exterminate the species. You show that you trust their judgement. 

As a renegade I kill the Queen because.. hey! Aren't her offspring annoying as hell? It's a real pain to fight them if you are not a biotic. 

I would be grateful to read your opinion in my statements. 

Modifié par Autoclave, 01 mai 2011 - 10:30 .


#29
lolwut666

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That asari on ME2 creeped me out so much that I started to doubt my decision to let the rachni live.

#30
TomY90

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Autoclave wrote...

**SNIP**
Actually, you can regard killing the rachni queen both a paragon :innocent: and a renegade :devil: action at the same time.

As a paragon I kill the Queen because I want to end her suffering and loneliness while leaving the galaxy a safer place for the rest of the inhabitants. By killing the rachni you are merely respecting the decision that council did long ago: exterminate the species. You show that you trust their judgement. 

As a renegade I kill the Queen because.. hey! Aren't her offspring annoying as hell? It's a real pain to fight them if you are not a biotic. 

I would be grateful to read your opinion in my statements. 


I see where you are coming from with it and you are right in a way both decisions are both paragon and renegade but both could possibly make you regret it in the short run and the long run.

As you said it could easily become that the rachni start attacking once more or they could truly become peaceful and live well with society.

But that will have to be seen I doubt the rachni would like the keepers and I doubt the council races would like their singing

#31
TCGodzilla

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Autoclave wrote...

I always kill the Queen, probably because how difficult is to fight the rachni as an engineer/infiltrator class. I quite dislike her also. Seeing how she can control a dead asari body is already a strong warning that you should not underestimate their powers.

If you really care about humanity and other alien races survival, if you really care about the horrible fate krogans suffered because of rachni, killing the queen is the right thing to do.


The asari commando was near death, not dead, (if you believe what the queen says, the asari's music is bittersweet) so it was understandable how the queen could control her so easily. The krogan killed the rachni off by the order of the Council but millions of krogan die in the process from what Wrex says. Despite that the rachni could be useful ally seeing how much they have advance within two years. Also Shepard needs every resource he can find to fight the Reapers but we shall see where the rachni true loyalty lays in ME3.  

#32
CeoBohga

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But you can say the same for the Krogans, and to a degree, the Humans. Krogans felt no obligation to curb their expansion and passive conquest of alien worlds, showing a total lack of respect for the rights of other species to exist. They were like weeds choking the life out of society, and for the sin of using up more than their fair share of resources and refusing to back down, their species was condemned to death.

Humans are no better. Every race out there seems to view Humans as aggressive invaders and like the Krogans, the council seems more interested in how they can use humanity as a tool rather than joining with them for the sake of galactic unity. Humans, like the Krogans, passively invaded other citadel species' worlds such as the Batarians until the Batarians took arms against them. I would speculate that the only reason that humanity wasn't exterminated by the coucil then was because the Batarians were not a council race.

Now regarding no genetic difference making them just as likely to wage war, that's a nature v/s nurture argument. While genetic tendencies may have some influence on personality, they are far from being the thing that defines the personality. You cannot assume that just because someone's father is a murderer that they two will be a murderer when raise completely removed from the father. Even considering humanity, if society starts to execute it's laws and punishments based on ancestry, then there is not a single person on this planet who would be spared the death penalty. Genetically, we're all murderous ****s, but our dominate society has shaped our personalities against our natural genetic tendencies. It's no stretch of the imagination to see that properly nurtured, the Rachni could very well come to be positive contributors to citadel society.

(I'm debating whether or not to bring human ethnicities who have been infamous in the past for their bloodthirsty ways, but have since made several positive contributions to society as a retort to genes being a reason for execution)

Now I've seen the following spoiler several times in the ME1 forums, but this is an ME2 spoiler, so if like me, you haven't played it, skip the next section, unless, like me, you don't mind minor spoilers.


**********************ME2 Spoiler Notice**********************
In ME2, you receive notice that the Rachni may have been compelled by the Reapers to go to be so aggressive. If that is the case, then their ancestral sins are not a genetic influence but rather indoctrination, which means the queen in question has spent her entire life removed from the influence that drove the species to violence. It's also suggested in those notices that the Rachni are preparing an army to fight against the coming Reapers, indicating that the species is perfectly capable of assimilating into citadel society. I mention this because this supports my statement that their genes alone are not what made them a vicious race, but rather the nurture that their nature received.
***************************End ME2 Spoiler********************


Your renegade argument is sound. As a renegade, killing them makes sense, unless you think with proper investment you might be able to successfully achieve what Binary Helix and Saren failed to do... control them for your own personal army. It's not inconceivable after all since the Queen has told you why they failed. Assuming she's not lying, allowing the Queen to properly raise the Rachni with you elevated as their Emperor God could give you (and humanity if you're loyal to them) the weapon needed to rule citadel space.

Your paragon argument has a fatal flaw though. The Queen would no longer be suffering if freed and her loneliness would be short lived as she appears to be able to lay eggs at a considerable rate (typical of insects). You are correct though in that destroying them might show a respect for the council's decision to commit genocide, but by that same standard, you would have to show respect for their decision to destroy the Krogans and any other species which they find inconvenient.

In any case, I stand by my decion to spare the queen on the grounds that she has commited no crime, just as I stand by my desire to help Wrex cure the genophage.

#33
Autoclave

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Here are 2 more arguments:
1. We decide their fate in ME1. So in consistency with time line we don't know about the asari messenger from ME2 that tells us about Rachni being probably manipulated by reapers.

2. Rachni reproduction. If they reproduce slow by the time reapers come they will still be useless against them. If they reproduce so fast (which is the most probable) that we are able to amass en entire army in ME3, aren't they basically a threat too for the for galaxy? Or even a possibility for Reapers indoctrination. Either way you don't need or want rachni alive.

#34
CeoBohga

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1. I mention the ME2 data simply as supplemental. The basis of my argument stands on only knowledge acquired through ME1 and combined with practical world knowledge.

2. Reproduction rates is exactly why the Krogan were to be destroyed through the Genopage. If we are to wipe out entire species based on reproduction rates however, who gets to decide what rate is acceptable and what poses a threat to the galaxy? First the Rachni, then the Krogan... who's next? The game doesn't specify how quickly each species reproduces, but with the "Aggressive exspansion" exhibited by humans, we can't be to far from the top of the list.

Regarding large Rachni numbers being a threat for Reaper indoctrination, all species seem to be susceptible to it. If we wipe out a species because it in the past was indoctrinated or may in the future be indoctrinated, we have to wipe them all out... especially those Turians and Asari.

(Just to be clear, I'm not trying to tell you how to play. Your game, your reasoning. I'm just saying, there's very few arguments for killing the Rachni that can't be applied to the Krogan or certain other species.)

#35
Autoclave

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Don't worry, I am open minded I accept any arguments for letting the Queen alive.
In the end, I can have emotional urges to kill her the same way ppl have emotional urges to let her escape. If the rachni looked like a humanoid, I would 99% let her escape. But all these insects and bugs.. reasoning with them.. I don't know. It's just the way how Sci-Fi typically depicts bugs: THEY ARE EVIL :D

#36
CeoBohga

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Oh no doubt. First time I saw an Ur-Quan or a Ilwrath (Star Control... old game) I needed no further convincing they were the bad guys because they looked like spiders. I shot the Rachni in the facility before giving them a change to attack me. The big, mean, ugly bugs are the bad guys. It's what we're brought up to believe, much like the species of the ME universe believe all synthetic life just wants to wipe out organics. That particular scene though puts you in a position of control where you can make a calm, collected decision rather than immediately reacting out of fear.

#37
Autoclave

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Aside from some sadistic genocidal bug killing, fear (of the future consequences) is a major factor deciding for killing the rachni. 

Basically you can reduce this dilemma to: "how much do I fear the rachni?" 

Please note that at Noveria, the player most probably will not have yet met Sovereign or have learnt anything about the reapers that would support the idea: "lets save the rachni so they might build a strong army for us to fight the reapers"

It's strange since a lot of ppl have been basing their deicision on this factor, which is basically a retroactive deicision when they already knew the all plot story while replaying. 

Modifié par Autoclave, 02 mai 2011 - 02:35 .


#38
CeoBohga

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You may not have met Sovereign yet, but there are plenty of instances where the coming of the Reapers is referred to. Meeting Sovereign just confirms it and reveals that the Reapers aren't on the ships but are the ships. Up until that point, you'd be left to believe that you're going to face an army rather than a fleet.

#39
Icinix

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Genocide should NEVER be an option.

#40
Tripedius

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In the end it will make no difference, it will only cost some more red shirts if it's a bad choice. Would love to have a release to bite me in the ass and killing her would be the good thing to do. Games thesedays (or ever) have way too little good actions with bad consequences.

An argument for letting her live is that it was not the council's intention to wipe out the entire race, just to contain them. The Krogans in their bloodlust however went to far.

#41
Ahglock

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Tripedius wrote...

In the end it will make no difference, it will only cost some more red shirts if it's a bad choice. Would love to have a release to bite me in the ass and killing her would be the good thing to do. Games thesedays (or ever) have way too little good actions with bad consequences.

An argument for letting her live is that it was not the council's intention to wipe out the entire race, just to contain them. The Krogans in their bloodlust however went to far.


Which is why I hated this decision.  You either kill her, or let her free from containment.  Both seem to be bad options.  Where is the don't kill her but keep her contained option.    

#42
Avalon Aurora

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I generally do Noveria last, and Benezia makes it pretty obvious she was controlled, and the Rachni Queen talks about how her kin were controlled. I decided to believe that the Queen was innocent, and the Rachni wouldn't have attacked normally. Even if I didn't know about the Reapers yet, I still would have assumed it lead back to whatever Saren has gotten up to, since he is obviously dealing with some kind of mind control, based on Benezia's behavior. It might just be a trick from the Queen, but I'd rather not commit genocide on the chance that she is lying.

#43
Ghost Warrior

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Well,BioWare seems to keep rewarding Paragons and punish Renegades so I think it's better to let them live.

#44
Guest_xabiton_*

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I think killing the Rachni queen is going to bite you in the ass in the long run ie ME3. It has no effect as far as Ive seen in ME2 but Im sure in 3 they will likely be one of the races willing to help against the Reapers provided they are still around or maybe that have been repurposed

#45
Tilarta

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As a tactical imperative, spare the Queen and she'll help you against the Reapers in ME3.

That hasn't been confirmed, but in ME2, the Rachni Queen sends you this message:

When the time comes, we shall light your darkness


Given the Rachni's predilection for poetic prose, I'm interpreting this as a pledge to your cause to fight the Reapers.

And just because certain Rachni get repurposed doesn't mean they all do.
Husks are repurposed humans, but that in no way means all humans are repurposed.

And I imagine, given that a Rachni Queen has fallen victim to Indoctrination in the past, that they'll be taking extra precautions to keep the location of their current Queen secret from the Reapers and everyone else.
That is how the Rachni were forced to attack the Citadel races, because unlike other species, one Queen is a link to the Rachni hivemind, so when she was Indoctrinated, so was every other Rachni she was linked to, with the exception of the current Queen, who was unaffected because she was not yet part of the Hivemind (due to not being hatched yet).

This could also mean the Rachni will have a measure of protection from Indoctrination, since the Hivemind can only be controlled by a Queen, then it may protect lesser level Rachni from the influence of the Reapers.

That would be funny to see, an army of Rachni immune to Indoctrination.

#46
Ottemis

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Autoclave wrote...
When deciding the fate of potentially extremely agressive species that basically compete with every other aliens in the galaxy there is no room for judgement based on individual innocence:

Is the queen innocent? Yes!
Are her offsprings potential killers? Yes!
Has the agrression from this species occured in the past? Yes!
Did Rachni show any intention on peaceful coexistence with the rest of the galaxy? No

So as you see, there is really no room for invidual innocence judgement here.

That's actually quite a dangerous statement. I would reckon true paragon would be "innocent untill proven guilty"
Judging an entire species on a war not all of them are confirmed to have taken/wanted part in, is un-just. (< And that prolly would have wiped us out as a species aswell) Genocide, imho, is ALWAYS wrong. The destruction of something unique and living. Wether you are religious or not (and for the record i'm not) it'd baaad =P 

CeoBohga wrote...

2. Reproduction rates is exactly why the Krogan were to be destroyed through the Genopage.

**possible spoilers** Hmmm-no. They felt they should bring back Krogan reproduction-rates to match with the death ratio during the wars to keep the population in check, the idea wasen't to wipe them out completely. Because the Krogans were giving birth, but without their homeworld (clanwars) and without an ACTUAL war, they all ended up being hired guns and overall "trouble-makers" in the eyes of other races. Rapid number growth models, etc.
More of an "Uh-ow, let's nip this potential problem in the butt" kind of solution. Still wrong as hell, and remarks you hear here and there from Krogan saying their genepool is weakening due to the "pampering" of whichever infant survived this "filter", yeah.. plausible. The Krogans had this whole "survival of the fittest" principle down to a fine art, the genophage broke that. Everybody wants them in a fight, but when the fighting stops they should all f-off and not be in the way apparently.
A soldier has no purpose in times of peace. Ungratefull bstrds rlly. 
**/possible spoilers**

CeoBohga wrote...

2. First the Rachni, then the Krogan... who's next?

Yeah, quite scary.

Ghost Warrior wrote...

Well,BioWare seems to keep rewarding Paragons and punish Renegades so I think it's better to let them live.

Heh, I got a funny story for you there.
A friend of mine playing Baldur's Gate made a habbit of attacking anything on her path that might end up trying to kill her, obviously with the risk of killing an 'innocent bystander" along the way, as she noticed when she sniped off a questgiver and broke her game.

I know not really applicable, but then again. If you go about shooting people in the eyesocket for looking at you the wrong way, ofc you'll run into quite a few snags now and then =P

Modifié par Ottemis, 09 mai 2011 - 04:26 .


#47
Shadowbanner

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If you kill her whose going to be the bad guy after the Reapers are defeated  ;) ?

The enemy of my enemy is my friend. Right now Reapers are number one priority, the enemy (for Rachni and all organic life in the universe). I need all the help I can enlist even if that means making a deal with the dEAvil, so be it. I can always deal with the Rachni later on. Its the lest bad of two bads in any case. Rachni do not threat to wipe out all sentient life in the universe as Reapers do. Reapers have proven themselves to be a major threat time and time again defeating the most advanced technological civilizations in blitz attacks.

Besides, I like how she talks, call me sentimental.

I choose to save her.

From a logical point of view (as in real-life) and considering (in-game) historically what they did and just how hard it was to take them down (Krogan sacrifice) you have to seize the opportunity and kill her as Wrex suggests ASAP.

Fron a Gamer's point of view however you know they'll be a great asset against the Reapers, it's a no-brainer. I just can't imagine the Rachni turning on me in ME3 after having saved them; I would be royally pissed and surprised. Besides, if you save them, as another poster has written, you'll play the related subplot, more playtime, it's a win/win.

Saving her was one of the hardest decisions along with whom you saved in Vermire in ME1. Saving the Council, for me, was a no-brainer: let them be killed after how obtuse & slow to react they were before the threat.

Modifié par Shadowbanner, 09 mai 2011 - 12:37 .


#48
Dagon

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kill them with fire

Modifié par Dagon_09, 09 mai 2011 - 01:03 .


#49
Dagon

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http://files.sharena...-162844-580.gif MHAHAHA!!!!!

Modifié par Dagon_09, 09 mai 2011 - 04:11 .


#50
Whereto

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let them live

Modifié par Whereto, 09 mai 2011 - 12:57 .