183 réponses à ce sujet

[tmp7704]

Scimal wrote...

What is that? An MMO? A SPRPG? Bland architecture, bland mob, and mediocre character front and center. Could you identify where this is without looking at the minimap?

I'd like to be honest now,



do you feel this image manages to avoid meeting any of the remarks you've just made? For this matter, does any of the images you've posted as examples of "unique identity" really avoids meeting them as well? They can be just as easily described as "bland fantasy" and "bland sci-fi" with mediocre characters. And i definitely can't tell in what particular locations these screenshots were taken.

Modifié par tmp7704, 29 avril 2011 - 03:23 .

[Scimal]

tmp7704 wrote...

I'd like to be honest now...

Why? Were you lying before? 

do you feel this image manages to avoid meeting any of the remarks you've just made? For this matter, does any of the images you've posted as examples of "unique identity" really avoids meeting them as well? They can be just as easily described as "bland fantasy" and "bland sci-fi" with mediocre characters. And i definitely can't tell in what particular locations these screenshots were taken.

Actually, I think Merrill stands out if you stare it for a bit. Her stance is fairly atypical of most games.

Also, I never said DA2 avoided the pitfalls of DA:O's blandness. I said BioWare was trying to move away from it with style, and that was a good thing.

Maybe they'll hit their stride in DA3. Flemeth is a good start. The elves were a good start. Kirkwall was a fairly good try. They just don't know what they're doing with the style yet, though.

[Ryllen Laerth Kriel]

Tha DA 2 image looks pretty generic to me, even moreso than Origins. That could be guild wars, Aion, the Witcher 1, pretty much anything aside from the interface. I guess they need to put larger breasts on the women in DA 3, spikier shoulder pads on the armor and the weapons need to be twenty feet long just so players can be 100% sure who is who when the camera is zoomed out to the furthest chase cam, since tactical cameras might never come back.

Actually if you read anything into the art direction of DA:O, alot of time was spent deciding the look of the game from the architecture to the outfits being based upon historical styles and cultures. To me, DA 2's outfit and architecture along with it's weapon design and qunari and elf designs looks far more generic, b-grade anime fantasy.

[Bryy_Miller]

You know, I honestly don't see how DA2's graphics are any different from Origins.

[Ryllen Laerth Kriel]

Really? How many fingers am I holding up Bryy?

[Bryy_Miller]

I don't know, I can't see you.

[Ryllen Laerth Kriel]

Oh no, it's getting worse!

[tmp7704]

Scimal wrote...

Actually, I think Merrill stands out if you stare it for a bit. Her stance is fairly atypical of most games.

I'd say it's a generic "cute female" stance like in million of korean MMOs, free-to-play ones and otherwise.

Also, I never said DA2 avoided the pitfalls of DA:O's blandness. I said BioWare was trying to move away from it with style, and that was a good thing.

Isn't that ultimately a fool's errand, though and marketing pet theory, about as logical as "every game must have multiplayer nowadays"? As based on these other "unique style" screenshots you've posted i have to conclude that the only way of knowing what these screenshots are from is, being closely familiar with the games in question. But when you're as closely familiar with the DAO as with these other games, then there's no problem in telling the screenshot is from it, either. In the end the exact stylistics used by the game don't really matter very much in being actually recognizable; that has more to do with how popular your game is and even more with how many other games exist that deal with the same subject.

It doesn't really matter if your elves look like realistic proportioned humans or anime proportioned humans -- there's tons of other games out there which use either approach and about any mix in-between. Coming up with unique style is about as likely as coming up with unique plot, when there's seven or so of them total. And even if by some miracle you manage to invent one, you'll have dozen copycats in a year or so, successfully pulling you back in the blob of "unrecognizable without scrutiny".

Furthermore there's something else, something that was funnily enough posted by BioWare devs themselves when they were defending their decision to drastically alter some of their designs in DA2. It's examples how Batman drawn by different artists using very different styles still remains recognizable as Batman. And they're quite right about it. But it demonstrates very well one thing -- that whether your characters have eyes like normal humans or twice that size, and what exact proportions you use, and what sort of shading... it doesn't really define the actual "style" of the franchise, nor impacts much how recognizable it is. And that again brings us to the question, if trying to get a "style" by tweaking these things isn't ultimately pointless.

[88mphSlayer]

Dragon Age 3 should look like Dark Souls

Modifié par 88mphSlayer, 29 avril 2011 - 03:44 .

[Rockpopple]

I like the new artsyle. I like how the races were given more distinction from each other rather than Qunari being big humans and Elves being little humans and Dwarves being squashed humans.

As much as I liked the look of Origins, it was as generic as it comes. When I played it, people who watched would ask me if it was LOTR.

So I like the new direction. My .02.

[Heather Cline]

I disagree that the faces from DA2 are cartoonish. Actually the faces in DA2 are more realistic looking than those in DA:O. The faces, skin and over all look of DA:O felt more plastic and you also had clipping problems when doing facial creation for certain races. Then there is the fact that the sharp angles of DA:O felt more more like pixels. The human face is ROUNDED in most areas. Jaws are rounded, cheek bones are rounded. The feel of the DA2 art, with the exclusion of the Darkspawn is more realistic than DA:O's art style for characters over all. Compare the face of Bethany against a picture of your mother or sister, she looks more realistic than what you see in DA:O.

[tmp7704]

Heather Cline wrote...

I disagree that the faces from DA2 are cartoonish. Actually the faces in DA2 are more realistic looking than those in DA:O. The faces, skin and over all look of DA:O felt more plastic and you also had clipping problems when doing facial creation for certain races.

There's the shape of the face, and then there's shaders used to "paint" that shape. When people say DA2 is less realistic they mostly mean the latter -- the shading largely lacks surface details which are present on a real face (and to degree, in DAO)  Which, incidentally, makes them look like --as you put it-- plastic, since that's what plastic generally seen like, smooth and featureless.

[errant_knight]

The graphic style was an annoyance that never faded with familiarity. In a game where a feeling of reality was hard to come by, the graphics just made that worse. I can deal with the Qunari and the dwarves physical shape, but the elves are utterly unappealing. I found the people to look very cartoonish with their puffy faces, tiny mouths, drawn on wrinkles--if they even had any.

People say Origins looked generic but any game that presents the world with a modicum of realism is going to have graphic similarities, because that's what real looks like.

[Addai]

Heather Cline wrote...

I disagree that the faces from DA2 are cartoonish. Actually the faces in DA2 are more realistic looking than those in DA:O. The faces, skin and over all look of DA:O felt more plastic and you also had clipping problems when doing facial creation for certain races. Then there is the fact that the sharp angles of DA:O felt more more like pixels. The human face is ROUNDED in most areas. Jaws are rounded, cheek bones are rounded. The feel of the DA2 art, with the exclusion of the Darkspawn is more realistic than DA:O's art style for characters over all. Compare the face of Bethany against a picture of your mother or sister, she looks more realistic than what you see in DA:O.

Too round.  Apart from default Marian, it is hard to make a Hawke that's not a pudding face.  Chins are too prominent and features tend to be clustered at the center of the face.

The faces definitely look more cartoonish to me.  I won't even get into the avatars, which are creepy.

[Brockololly]

Addai67 wrote...
Too round.  Apart from default Marian, it is hard to make a Hawke that's not a pudding face.  Chins are too prominent and features tend to be clustered at the center of the face.

The faces definitely look more cartoonish to me.  I won't even get into the avatars, which are creepy.

Yeah, its not so much that having some people with more rounded features would be bad, its that in DA2, almost everyone shares the same features.

[Wulfram]

tmp7704 wrote...

do you feel this image manages to avoid meeting any of the remarks you've just made? For this matter, does any of the images you've posted as examples of "unique identity" really avoids meeting them as well? They can be just as easily described as "bland fantasy" and "bland sci-fi" with mediocre characters. And i definitely can't tell in what particular locations these screenshots were taken.

You don't think Zevran stabbing himself through the chest with 2 swords is unique?

[happy_daiz]

I think the faces are a vast improvement in DA2, but OMG, the hands...the horror. Did that mage Quentin Leandra-cize them from dead, rotting bodies, or what?

The environments are really not much different between DAO and DA2. The cutscenes are improved, but otherwise, pretty much the same style.

[xCirdanx]

Sylvianus wrote...
For the next episode, do you want graphics as DA2 or DAO ? Of course, assumes that it will work well done in both cases.

I prefer Origins art style. However i don´t see this changing again with DA3 (which i assume will be made), which is a shame.

[tmp7704]

Wulfram wrote...

You don't think Zevran stabbing himself through the chest with 2 swords is unique?

Can't really blame the guy, given what he's been put through...

"My face... my beautiful face!"

[Scimal]

tmp7704 wrote...

I'd say it's a generic "cute female" stance like in million of korean MMOs, free-to-play ones and otherwise.

I don't play korean MMO's or seek out screenies of them, but if you say so.

Isn't that ultimately a fool's errand, though and marketing pet theory, about as logical as "every game must have multiplayer nowadays"?

Having a unique style is probably calculated into marketing at some point. Then again, what isn't?

The benefit of style is to impress the player. It's a chance for the developers to strut their stuff and make the world feel effervescent. If you have a 15 second shot to make the player go, "Holy %$#!... that looks great," then you're not going to win with things like, "classical RPG inventory and stat-based gameplay!" You're not even going to get anywhere with "in-depth, impactful stories" if you're BioWare - it's a given.

However, if you can show an achingly-beatiful vista or dungeon, a few seconds of dynamic action, and then add that to the "fantastic story" - you suddenly have the attention of gamers. BioWare needs new customers if they want to survive, and gamers are very visual people. If all we wanted were stories, we'd be reading books. If all we wanted were stat-based games with stories, we'd be playing D&D.

We want to see our character in the world itself, taking part in the story. With a bland style and bland visuals, it makes our character also seem more bland. Heck, in DA:O there were only - what - 2 decent looking robes and 1 decent hat? It's more difficult to believe your character can take on a dragon when they're wearing a head-condom is all I'm saying.

As based on these other "unique style" screenshots you've posted i have to conclude that the only way of knowing what these screenshots are from is, being closely familiar with the games in question.

I would disagree. I think you'd only have to have a very casual relationship with WoW or ME2 to pick them out. Heck, while I was browsing for more pictures I stumbled upon one that was for LotRO which was so obviously Tolkienesque I guess that it was a LotR game before I looked at the website. That's style, when I have no idea what game it is, just that it's a LotR game.

FO3 may be more ambiguous, but that's because the setting is also done more often than some of the others. Post-apocalyptic wastelands are almost as common as generic fantasy in the gaming world. The more profuse the setting, the more unique the style must accompany any game in that setting in order to stand out.

But when you're as closely familiar with the DAO as with these other games, then there's no problem in telling the screenshot is from it, either. In the end the exact stylistics used by the game don't really matter very much in being actually recognizable; that has more to do with how popular your game is and even more with how many other games exist that deal with the same subject.

If you had only seen the commercials for DA:O, could you honestly tell the screenshots of DA:O from above from the commercial alone? Maybe. I would guess 'No,' though.

You could easily guess WoW or ME2.

In the end, you're right. People intimately familiar with the setting will be able to tell it apart. However, it matters very much in how recognizable your game is, and the ability of people to recognize your game directly correlates with popularity.

If I don't know what I'm looking at unless I've already bought it, there isn't any reason for me to buy it off of the visual presentation  alone.

It doesn't really matter if your elves look like realistic proportioned humans or anime proportioned humans -- there's tons of other games out there which use either approach and about any mix in-between.

Sure. However, guess what I see every day? Humans. Elves that look like humans will look like humans, not elves. The different stylized version of elves will draw different crowds, but at least they're easily and notably different, and humans thrive on diversity.

Coming up with unique style is about as likely as coming up with unique plot, when there's seven or so of them total. And even if by some miracle you manage to invent one, you'll have dozen copycats in a year or so, successfully pulling you back in the blob of "unrecognizable without scrutiny".

I didn't say it was easy. It is possible, though. Does BioWare have it in them? Maybe. I almost want to say 'No', but I've been pleasantly surprised before.

Furthermore there's something else, something that was funnily enough posted by BioWare devs themselves when they were defending their decision to drastically alter some of their designs in DA2. It's examples how Batman drawn by different artists using very different styles still remains recognizable as Batman. And they're quite right about it. But it demonstrates very well one thing -- that whether your characters have eyes like normal humans or twice that size, and what exact proportions you use, and what sort of shading... it doesn't really define the actual "style" of the franchise, nor impacts much how recognizable it is. And that again brings us to the question, if trying to get a "style" by tweaking these things isn't ultimately pointless.

Actually, I'm glad you brought this up. I agree completely.

It delineates the difference between basic character design and style. As long as the character design is similar, the character will be recognizable. Batman is Batman because of the suit, the Bat-symbol, the cape, the pointed ears, and the mask.

However, the Batman franchise has gone through many different styles. The 1950's Adam West Batman was a camp-fest, complete with Bat-Shark-Repellant. It was frivalous and geared towards a younger audience with brighter colors and very cartoonish villains.

The Burton Batman was geared exclusively for adults. Darker color pallette, darker setting, gone were the cartoonish villains who were foiled on a weekly basis - suddenly the foes were dangerous. Murder, mayhem, and sex were all involved.

Then you have the Shumacher Batman. Gone were the dimly-lit alleyways and villains with a penchant for muder. Shumacher's Batman was still in a rubber batsuit, but Gotham was suddenly filled with neon and flashy villains. Sex was cut out entirely, murder became nonexistent, and dialogue was kept to catchphrases. It was a throwback to the campier style with brighter colors, less danger, and more frivalty - like the Bat-ice-skates.

Now it's come full-circle again with The Dark Night. Batman is once again taking a more serious tone. Murder, mayhem, and sex have been distilled back in.

Same character design, same setting, but vastly different styles.

Tweaking the character design of the DA franchise helped. Elves look more alien than "humans with pointy ears," but as I've said throughout this thread - BioWare needs to start evolving the style. DA:O's style was supposed to be "dark and gritty. " How was it either? All of the locations are well-lit, and it only felt gritty after a few blood spatters were thrown around. In the end, it was bland.

DA2 is heading in the right direction for me, but I wish BioWare would really amp-up the style.

[Rawgrim]

The graphics in DA2 was ok, really. Except for the oversized weapons and the damn manga elves. They stuck out bigtime.

[Cutlasskiwi]

Rawgrim wrote...

The graphics in DA2 was ok, really. Except for the oversized weapons and the damn manga elves. They stuck out bigtime.

Isn't the weapos the same size as in DAO? Except maybe for Hayder's Razor..

[Sylvius the Mad]

Yellow Words wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

The graphics in DA2 was ok, really. Except for the oversized weapons and the damn manga elves. They stuck out bigtime.

Isn't the weapos the same size as in DAO? Except maybe for Hayder's Razor.

The weapons are basically the same size as DAO.  But they were too big in DAO, as well.  But becauyse the camera was fartehr away it wasn't as jarring - and the lighting was different so everything was more muted.

DAO's weapons were oversized, but the game did a fairly good job of hiding that.  DA2 seems to go out of its way, though, to draw attention to it (and Hayder's Razor is idiotic - that they would even consider putting that in the game tells me that they have the wrong priorities).

[Ryllen Laerth Kriel]

Yeah, I did a reinstall of DA:O on a new computer and one of the first player mods I grabbed with the resized weapons mod. It looks so much better. No more oversized Tom And Jerry style hammers.