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[JPadinhaT]

Sussurus wrote...

Meredith calls for it in chapter three before the boom.
The templar that captures Grace if you force them back into the circle can be clicked on in the gallows.
He then mentions Meredith called for the RoA, and a journal entry pops up on it.

However I thought the RoA required chantry authority.
A templar can't just order it carried out, a grand cleric must.. that may be why Elthena had to get blown up gameplay wise.
For with her death Meredith can just scream it's the right thing to do with no authority available?

Wait... the Right of Annulment was going to happen even if the Grand Cleric didn't die?

[Britic]

TJPags wrote...

Britic wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Since when is requesting the RoA illegal under Chantry Law?

I was refering to her use of the rite of tranquillity on mages who have passed their harrowing, the rite of annulment was never disscussed.

Ah, apologies - read your post wrong.

As to the Tranquil thing, it was suggested and rejected - rejected by Meredith.  She may have been guilty of not controlling her Templars, but wouldn't that make her as cuplable as Elthina?

Not so much as Ser Alrick's idea, more of the use of it on Karl in lieu of a simple execution.

[Rifneno]

Sussurus wrote...

Meredith calls for it in chapter three before the boom.
The templar that captures Grace if you force them back into the circle can be clicked on in the gallows.
He then mentions Meredith called for the RoA, and a journal entry pops up on it.

However I thought the RoA required chantry authority.
A templar can't just order it carried out, a grand cleric must.. that may be why Elthena had to get blown up gameplay wise.
For with her death Meredith can just scream it's the right thing to do with no authority available?

Yes.  DG said with Elthina dead, she has sole authority to call the RoA.

[Britic]

JPadinhaT wrote...

Wait... the Right of Annulment was going to happen even if the Grand Cleric didn't die?

At that point its open to interpretation, as Meredith had kinda gone off the deep end at this point.

[TJPags]

Britic wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Britic wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Since when is requesting the RoA illegal under Chantry Law?

I was refering to her use of the rite of tranquillity on mages who have passed their harrowing, the rite of annulment was never disscussed.

Ah, apologies - read your post wrong.

As to the Tranquil thing, it was suggested and rejected - rejected by Meredith.  She may have been guilty of not controlling her Templars, but wouldn't that make her as cuplable as Elthina?

Not so much as Ser Alrick's idea, more of the use of it on Karl in lieu of a simple execution.

We don't have enough information to determine whether that was illegal or not.

It's normally not done after a mage passes their Harrowing, but we don't know if there might be circumstances that allow it.  I'm betting it actually was legal, otherwise I'm sure Orsino would have taken it Elthina.

[LobselVith8]

JPadinhaT wrote...

Sussurus wrote...

Meredith calls for it in chapter three before the boom.
The templar that captures Grace if you force them back into the circle can be clicked on in the gallows.
He then mentions Meredith called for the RoA, and a journal entry pops up on it.

However I thought the RoA required chantry authority.
A templar can't just order it carried out, a grand cleric must.. that may be why Elthena had to get blown up gameplay wise.
For with her death Meredith can just scream it's the right thing to do with no authority available?

Wait... the Right of Annulment was going to happen even if the Grand Cleric didn't die?

A request was made by Knight-Commander Meredith to Divine Justina V in Orlais. There's no way of knowing whether it would be approved or not.

[JPadinhaT]

Britic wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Britic wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Since when is requesting the RoA illegal under Chantry Law?

I was refering to her use of the rite of tranquillity on mages who have passed their harrowing, the rite of annulment was never disscussed.

Ah, apologies - read your post wrong.

As to the Tranquil thing, it was suggested and rejected - rejected by Meredith.  She may have been guilty of not controlling her Templars, but wouldn't that make her as cuplable as Elthina?

Not so much as Ser Alrick's idea, more of the use of it on Karl in lieu of a simple execution.

Ser Alrick's idea, was a kind of RoA. Think about it, if they did this to every mage in a designed zone, all mages would fear RoA even more!

[TJPags]

JPadinhaT wrote...

Sussurus wrote...

Meredith calls for it in chapter three before the boom.
The templar that captures Grace if you force them back into the circle can be clicked on in the gallows.
He then mentions Meredith called for the RoA, and a journal entry pops up on it.

However I thought the RoA required chantry authority.
A templar can't just order it carried out, a grand cleric must.. that may be why Elthena had to get blown up gameplay wise.
For with her death Meredith can just scream it's the right thing to do with no authority available?

Wait... the Right of Annulment was going to happen even if the Grand Cleric didn't die?

No.  Well, maybe.  But it would have had to be approved by Elthinna or the Divine directly.  Elthinna had already said no - although we never know if she would have eventually changed her mind - and the Divine's answer hadn't reached Kirkwall yet.

So all Anders did was give Meredith the authority to do what she wanted to do anyway.

Had she lived, Meredith still would have had to justify her decision to the Divine . . although I think the Divine would have agreed with it.

[Lewie]

Britic wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Britic wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Since when is requesting the RoA illegal under Chantry Law?

I was refering to her use of the rite of tranquillity on mages who have passed their harrowing, the rite of annulment was never disscussed.

Ah, apologies - read your post wrong.

As to the Tranquil thing, it was suggested and rejected - rejected by Meredith.  She may have been guilty of not controlling her Templars, but wouldn't that make her as cuplable as Elthina?

Not so much as Ser Alrick's idea, more of the use of it on Karl in lieu of a simple execution.

Yet, i have wondered who exactly performs the rite of tranquility. Karl is a set up per se maybe, but mages live in the gallows, Elthina does not. 

[Britic]

TJPags wrote...

Britic wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Britic wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Since when is requesting the RoA illegal under Chantry Law?

I was refering to her use of the rite of tranquillity on mages who have passed their harrowing, the rite of annulment was never disscussed.

Ah, apologies - read your post wrong.

As to the Tranquil thing, it was suggested and rejected - rejected by Meredith.  She may have been guilty of not controlling her Templars, but wouldn't that make her as cuplable as Elthina?

Not so much as Ser Alrick's idea, more of the use of it on Karl in lieu of a simple execution.

We don't have enough information to determine whether that was illegal or not.

It's normally not done after a mage passes their Harrowing, but we don't know if there might be circumstances that allow it.  I'm betting it actually was legal, otherwise I'm sure Orsino would have taken it Elthina.

Anders does note that it's use in that situation was illeagal. However it may not have been reported due to nearly all of those who were involved being dead. As for other cases, Meredith could have easily covered it up due to her greater favor within both the Chantry and the Templars.

[LobselVith8]

TJPags wrote...

We don't have enough information to determine whether that was illegal or not.

It's normally not done after a mage passes their Harrowing, but we don't know if there might be circumstances that allow it.  I'm betting it actually was legal, otherwise I'm sure Orsino would have taken it Elthina.

Karl was a Harrowed mage who was sent to the Circle of Kirkwall from the Ferelden Circle, and he was writing secret letters to Anders about the conditions of the Gallows. There's no evidence that Karl was legally made tranquil, and the letter from Ser Alrik (on the templar in "Tranquility") implies that Karl was illegally made tranquil.

[Sussurus]

Rifneno wrote...
Yes.  DG said with Elthina dead, she has sole authority to call the RoA.

Thanks for the info, it is appreciated.
Edited for the many answers above, already bringing it up.

Modifié par Sussurus, 27 avril 2011 - 11:41 .

[TJPags]

Britic wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Britic wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Britic wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Since when is requesting the RoA illegal under Chantry Law?

I was refering to her use of the rite of tranquillity on mages who have passed their harrowing, the rite of annulment was never disscussed.

Ah, apologies - read your post wrong.

As to the Tranquil thing, it was suggested and rejected - rejected by Meredith.  She may have been guilty of not controlling her Templars, but wouldn't that make her as cuplable as Elthina?

Not so much as Ser Alrick's idea, more of the use of it on Karl in lieu of a simple execution.

We don't have enough information to determine whether that was illegal or not.

It's normally not done after a mage passes their Harrowing, but we don't know if there might be circumstances that allow it.  I'm betting it actually was legal, otherwise I'm sure Orsino would have taken it Elthina.

Anders does note that it's use in that situation was illeagal. However it may not have been reported due to nearly all of those who were involved being dead. As for other cases, Meredith could have easily covered it up due to her greater favor within both the Chantry and the Templars.

Anders is hardly an unbiased source.  he hates the Chantry, and he apparently had been in a relationship with Karl.  He also may not be an expert on Chantry Law.

[TJPags]

LobselVith8 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

We don't have enough information to determine whether that was illegal or not.

It's normally not done after a mage passes their Harrowing, but we don't know if there might be circumstances that allow it.  I'm betting it actually was legal, otherwise I'm sure Orsino would have taken it Elthina.

Karl was a Harrowed mage who was sent to the Circle of Kirkwall from the Ferelden Circle, and he was writing secret letters to Anders about the conditions of the Gallows. There's no evidence that Karl was legally made tranquil, and the letter from Ser Alrik (on the templar in "Tranquility") implies that Karl was illegally made tranquil.

I don't recall that letter.  Is it on the Wiki so I can see the text of it?

[Sussurus]

It's on the Templar leader.
If you kill him quickly and keep an eye out his corpse drops a letter.

[Rifneno]

TJPags wrote...

We don't have enough information to determine whether that was illegal or not.

It's normally not done after a mage passes their Harrowing, but we don't know if there might be circumstances that allow it.  I'm betting it actually was legal, otherwise I'm sure Orsino would have taken it Elthina.

It's awesome how we can make all kinds of assumptions if it justifies a RoA, but when we have a mage with no evidence of any significant crime against him being tranquilled against his will, and the offending templar has a note on him written by a known psychopath and rapist chewing him out for questioning the order, we suddenly don't have enough information to determine stuff.  But if we do assume something, it should be that it was legal because otherwise a character we don't talk to until a life-threatening crisis 3 years later didn't complain about it that we know of to an authority figure who brushes off anything that requires her to do her job.

On a semi-related note, woot.  I just unlocked the achievement for a run-on sentence of massive proportions.

[LobselVith8]

TJPags wrote...

I don't recall that letter.  Is it on the Wiki so I can see the text of it?

You need to pick it up before all the templars are dead. It should be on lieutenant, if I recall correctly. You can read the letter here. Karl was made tranquil on the orders of Ser Alrik (who has no problem threatening a child with both tranquility and implied rape), who didn't want "questions" being asked to Knight-Commander Meredith.

[TJPags]

Rifneno wrote...

TJPags wrote...

We don't have enough information to determine whether that was illegal or not.

It's normally not done after a mage passes their Harrowing, but we don't know if there might be circumstances that allow it.  I'm betting it actually was legal, otherwise I'm sure Orsino would have taken it Elthina.

It's awesome how we can make all kinds of assumptions if it justifies a RoA, but when we have a mage with no evidence of any significant crime against him being tranquilled against his will, and the offending templar has a note on him written by a known psychopath and rapist chewing him out for questioning the order, we suddenly don't have enough information to determine stuff.  But if we do assume something, it should be that it was legal because otherwise a character we don't talk to until a life-threatening crisis 3 years later didn't complain about it that we know of to an authority figure who brushes off anything that requires her to do her job.

On a semi-related note, woot.  I just unlocked the achievement for a run-on sentence of massive proportions.

If you look at my prior post, you'll note that I do not recall any letter.

So, consider this a second request for some text, or a link to it.

[TJPags]

LobselVith8 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

I don't recall that letter.  Is it on the Wiki so I can see the text of it?

You need to pick it up before all the templars are dead. It should be on lieutenant, if I recall correctly. You can read the letter here. Karl was made tranquil on the orders of Ser Alrik (who has no problem threatening a child with both tranquility and implied rape), who didn't want "questions" being asked to Knight-Commander Meredith.

Thank you.

I now agree, it most likely was illegal.

[Sussurus]

Ser Bardel,

I have told you a thousand times not to bother the knight commander with your pathetic questions.
She is a busy woman and has no time to nurse you through your crisis of consience.
You are under my command if you take issues with my orders, you bring them to me or I will see you striped of your knighthood!

The mage Karl is dangerous and we must take steps to deal with him and any friends assisting with the rebellion.
I expect this done by next week, if I must see to it personally, I will also find out exactly why you failed to carry out your sacred duties.

The maker has given us a divine task, Bardel. we can not fail him.

Ser Alrik.

Edit: Damn it I just copied the letter out.

Modifié par Sussurus, 27 avril 2011 - 11:54 .

[Lewie]

Also if you tell Elthina, hey look at this rite of tranquil, she turned on her heel. Doesn't want to acknowledge anything.

[Silver]

Well, seeing how Meredith squeezed and squeezed, it does make you wonder why Elthina did not step in to moderate the conflict or have her replaced. But who could she have chosen on such short notice to replace Meredith ? Cullen ? He's as much a zealoth as Meredith is.

Modifié par silverhammer08, 27 avril 2011 - 11:56 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Cullen may have been a hardliner against Mage freedom but he wouldn't have caused many of the problems that Meredith did. Meredith was crazy and by the end she seemed power hungry enough that he began to doubt her. Aside from the fact that her decision to invoke the Right of Annulment was more about the desire to punish "somebody" for Anders' crime than actually beliving the Circle was too corrupted; One of the problems was that she was going beyond her station as Knight Commander

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 28 avril 2011 - 12:02 .

[Ollymandias]

Rifneno wrote...

JPadinhaT wrote...

Wait... You're not trolling? Okay then... Well I don't really believe that, I think she was like Orsino's and Meredith's mother just keeping her kids from fighting, but she couldn't take sides.

In order for that analogy to work, said children would have to be fighting with miniguns in the middle of Times Square.

And if you saw two young siblings fighting with miniguns in the middle of Times Square, thinking that their parent is doing a rubbish job at parenting is a fairly reasonable conclusion to come to.  

Elthina spent years letting the Templars carry out terrible abuses, such as the Rite of Tranquility, rapes, inhumane conditions and so on.  If Meredith was not keeping her men in line, then she needed to be replaced.  If she had let things spiral out of hand with the mages to the extent that blood magic was rife to the extent that it was in Kirkwall, then Meredith wasn't doing her job and needed to be replaced.  

Either way, only stepping in when Meredith and Orsino are openly quarreling in public, and then only stepping in to tell them to go to their rooms and stop making a scene in front of everyone in the square is not sufficient.

Oh no, but the Chantry is a "gentle mother" right?  And she knows that her children learn best when allowed to figure things out for themselves.  Well, Elthina, they certainly learned a thing or two.  You know, about bombs.

[Britic]

silverhammer08 wrote...

Well, seeing how Meredith squeezed and squeezed, it does make you wonder why Elthina did not step in to moderate the conflict or have her replaced. But who could she have chosen on such short notice to replace Meredith ? Cullen ? He's as much a zealoth as Meredith is.

Cullen is something of a reasonable zealot, if such a thing exists, as he did show mercy Aldin. Meredith's replacement didn't even have to be  from Kirkwall, the Divine could have sent the one from Orlais so as to show an intrest in the scenario.

Modifié par Britic, 28 avril 2011 - 12:01 .