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[Kaiser Shepard]

The true villain was obviously the (figurative) demon that would eventually be known as the Champion of Kirkwall, Hawke. That no-good spawn of the fallen Amell family has brought nothing but fear and suffering with it in it's attempt to take down the powers that be in Kirkwall and take their rightful place.

This so-called Champion would have the people of Kirkwall give up their freedoms, their traditions, out of fear! Hawke placed them on this path, yet they should place their destiny in this fiend's hands? Must they sacrifice everything good about their city to save it?

Modifié par Kaiser Shepard, 28 avril 2011 - 12:09 .

[Silver]

Britic wrote...

silverhammer08 wrote...

Well, seeing how Meredith squeezed and squeezed, it does make you wonder why Elthina did not step in to moderate the conflict or have her replaced. But who could she have chosen on such short notice to replace Meredith ? Cullen ? He's as much a zealoth as Meredith is.

Cullen is something of a reasonable zealot, if such a thing exists, as he did show mercy Aldin. Meredith's replacement didn't even have to be  from Kirkwall, the Divine could have sent the one from Orlais so as to show an intrest in the scenario.

true, but to get rid of Meredith rather quickly before it all went to hell, you would have to get someone from close by, so Cullen was the only real option with enough authority over the other templars to be a real leader, and at the same time he would not be a good choice because the events in the Lake Calenhad Circle left him scarred and prejudiced against mages.

[Britic]

silverhammer08 wrote...

Britic wrote...

silverhammer08 wrote...

Well, seeing how Meredith squeezed and squeezed, it does make you wonder why Elthina did not step in to moderate the conflict or have her replaced. But who could she have chosen on such short notice to replace Meredith ? Cullen ? He's as much a zealoth as Meredith is.

Cullen is something of a reasonable zealot, if such a thing exists, as he did show mercy Aldin. Meredith's replacement didn't even have to be  from Kirkwall, the Divine could have sent the one from Orlais so as to show an intrest in the scenario.

true, but to get rid of Meredith rather quickly before it all went to hell, you would have to get someone from close by, so Cullen was the only real option with enough authority over the other templars to be a real leader, and at the same time he would not be a good choice because the events in the Lake Calenhad Circle left him scarred and prejudiced against mages.

A good point, but there is nothing that says that cullen couldn't be simply apointed as the acting commander until the replacement arrives. Also given the likely scrutiny placed on the templars if Meredith was removed, Cullen would have to be fairly moderate to avoid being discharged as well.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Britic wrote...

silverhammer08 wrote...

Well, seeing how Meredith squeezed and squeezed, it does make you wonder why Elthina did not step in to moderate the conflict or have her replaced. But who could she have chosen on such short notice to replace Meredith ? Cullen ? He's as much a zealoth as Meredith is.

Cullen is something of a reasonable zealot, if such a thing exists, as he did show mercy Aldin. Meredith's replacement didn't even have to be  from Kirkwall, the Divine could have sent the one from Orlais so as to show an intrest in the scenario.

That's a good point. Cullen was willing to show mercy to recaptured insurgents and Meredith would have prefered to execute a mage who ran away to a tavern and then willing turned himself in.

[TJPags]

Cullen really seemed a lot different in DA2 than he did after the events in Broken Circle. He seemed much more reasonable to me, to the point where, yes, I was waiting for the choice to take out Meredith and let Cullen take over.

I'd also guess that he DID actually take over at the end of DA2, once Meredith was dead . . err, encased in Lyrium.

[Lewie]

Britic wrote...

silverhammer08 wrote...

Well, seeing how Meredith squeezed and squeezed, it does make you wonder why Elthina did not step in to moderate the conflict or have her replaced. But who could she have chosen on such short notice to replace Meredith ? Cullen ? He's as much a zealoth as Meredith is.

Cullen is something of a reasonable zealot, if such a thing exists, as he did show mercy Aldin. Meredith's replacement didn't even have to be  from Kirkwall, the Divine could have sent the one from Orlais so as to show an intrest in the scenario.

Cullen survived ferelden, that to me doesn't make him a zealot of any kind. It shows me he is true to being a templar, he was stuck under meredith, his own conviction, blood mage riots. He had a bad feeling about one of his own and cornered them. He wasn't exactly proved wrong.

Insert 'Ideally' comments here: 

Modifié par louise101, 28 avril 2011 - 12:28 .

[Ollymandias]

She did a rubbish job with the Qunari situation in Act 2 as well.

Hawke knows that Sister Petrice is an extremist who is trying to stir up trouble, and can tell Elthina this, but Elthina says "lol, I'm not gonna do a thing about her!" Then between Acts 1 and 2, Elthina promotes Petrice to Mother, and lets her keep doing trouble-stirring sermons. There are only two conclusions to this: either that Elthina is a completely ineffectual Grand Cleric whose subordinates are generating mayhem while she goes out of her way to ignore it, or it could be that she was involved and that Petrice had not used Elthina's seal without her knowing, and that Elthina abandoned Petrice to be a scapegoat when the frying pan got too hot in the same calculated losses way that Petrice abandoned Varnell when it was convenient to do so.

I'd be more inclined to go with ineffectual and willfully blind rather than calculating, but neither are actually good traits in a authority figure of Kirkwall.  Nice as a character in a story sort of way, because all the authority figures were very flawed, from the Viscount to Meredith to the Arishok, and I can see why the writers did this, but as a Grand Cleric with a responsibility to do all she can, she fails pretty hard.

However, I did quite like:
Hawke: Elthina, omg the Viscount's Son has been murdered right here, in your name!!
Elthina: Well, my name won't like that, lololol.  You're not the only one who can pick the purple dialogue option, Hawke.

Modifié par Ollymandias, 28 avril 2011 - 12:57 .

[Abispa]

Cullen is a hero in my book. If any character had the personal history to make him a Meredith stooge, it was him. I'm sure that Circle Bethany is carrying his love-child, and my female mage Warden (see profile pic) would heartily approve that he's moved on and found a nice mage girl to play snuggle-bunnies with.

[Pandaman102]

Britic wrote...

Now I'm not refering to her refusal to take sides in the mage-templar conflict, but rather her actions, or lack thereof, against Meredith. Despite Meredith's repeated violation of Chantry law, in regards to the use of the Rite of Tranquility at least, Elthina thinks that any action on her part would violate her duties. Rather than contact the Divine and request for Meredith to replaced by a new Knight-Commander, Elthina seems to be content with making herself a cup of tea and watching the ensuring chaos.

I'd have to disagree, as the note on the "Tranquil Solution" revealed, neither Meredith nor Elthina allowed for such a thing to be done to mages. Meredith may have been harsh, but none of the events in the game painted her as anything other than a harsh old battleaxe - up until she suddenly went full-tilt paranoid murderer at the end when she tried to execute Hawke.

Consider this: Meredith tolerates MageHawke's freedom, she allows pro-mage Templars like Thrask freedom to operate, she didn't order the Starkhaven mages to be tranquiled or executed despite their leader (the geezer you killed, not the ungrateful wench who later kills Thrask) being a blood mage, she (along with Elthina) shot down the "Tranquil Solution", and when she sends Hawke find three escaped Circle Mages she doesn't press the matter if one of them mysteriously vanishes without the fight.  If I recall correctly even Orsino, in the big argument scene at the beginning of Act 3, doesn't accuse Meredith of abusing the Rite of Tranquility, he just argues it's the Templars' harsh treatment of mages that drive so many of them out of line.

There really wasn't anything Elthina could demote Meredith on aside from her "poor bedside manner".

If Elthina's lack of action makes her a villain, then Hawke's lack of action in the time skip makes him/her a villain as well - and Hawke's even less excusable than Elthina because he/she is the one who's actually running around getting first hand experience of the aftermath of the Templar/Mage conflict (but doesn't actually ever see what the conditions are like in the Circle). Elthina's the head of the Kirkwall Chantry, she has other duties that prevents her from poking her nose in everything on a daily basis.

Modifié par Pandaman102, 28 avril 2011 - 12:43 .

[Ollymandias]

Abispa wrote...

I'm sure that Circle Bethany is carrying his love-child, and my female mage Warden (see profile pic) would heartily approve that he's moved on and found a nice mage girl to play snuggle-bunnies with.

He did what with my sister!!?  

Seriously, do we see Bethany and Cullen interact in a romantic or friendly way at all?  Asking because if I missed that, I want to replay that section to see it.

[Lewie]

Aye, demons are always handwaved if you stick up for a templar. Wait...

[Britic]

Pandaman102 wrote...

If Elthina's lack of action makes her a villain, then Hawke's lack of action in the time skip makes him/her a villain as well - and Hawke's even less excusable than Elthina because he/she is the one who's actually running around getting first hand experience of the aftermath of the Templar/Mage conflict (but doesn't actually ever see what the conditions are like in the Circle). Elthina's the head of the Kirkwall Chantry, she has other duties that prevents her from poking her nose in everything on a daily basis.

One of Elthina's duties however is to supervise the Templar Order, so as to prevent the abuses that are ongoing in Kirkwall, but she seems to willingly neglect this duty in favor of rejecting any suggestions as to what she should do.

In regards to Hawke being a villain, I think he is seen as one by nearly the whole of Thedas. The people likely believe that Hawke unleashed the mages on the rest of the world, resulting in its current state. If Hawke sided with the Templar's however he could easily be seen as an oppertunistic tyrant.

[Abispa]

@ Ollymandias -- No, but my girlfriend is a HUGE Bioware and Cullen fan and has painted a very nice picture of "cute" Asian Bethany acting coy around an awkward Cullen. When she's not looking I'm going to scan it and post it, and them get the crap kicked out of me. Her painting of Asian femShep and Garrus is also very good, but NOT something I could post in a family forum.

[Abispa]

I like the idea that Hawke is seen as a villain by the general populace of Thedas, and would be interested to see it play out in the inevitable Awakening-style expansion to DA2 (hopefully Bioware will address some of DA2's flaws). Not only the humans, but the Qunari and the Dalish could also have issues with him/her, as may the Dwarven supporters of King Behlen.

Modifié par Abispa, 28 avril 2011 - 12:54 .

[Ollymandias]

Pandaman102 wrote...

If Elthina's lack of action makes her a villain, then Hawke's lack of action in the time skip makes him/her a villain as well - and Hawke's even less excusable than Elthina because he/she is the one who's actually running around getting first hand experience of the aftermath of the Templar/Mage conflict (but doesn't actually ever see what the conditions are like in the Circle). Elthina's the head of the Kirkwall Chantry, she has other duties that prevents her from poking her nose in everything on a daily basis.

I would agree about Hawke, or at least with some characterisations of Hawke.  

In Act 1 and 2, you had ineffectual Viscount doing too little to keep the Qunari situation stable and in hand.  He tried to maintain the status quo even though the situation was slipping closer and closer to mayhem.  

In Act 3, you have ineffectual Elthina doing too little in a similar way.

If you play a Hawke who refuses to take sides and bleats "but I don't want to choose who to support" and "why can't we all get along and be friends" and "I want a third way where nobody has to suffah!" then yeah, Hawke is just as bad.  In this case, Hawke is averting his eyes from the fact that the situation in the Gallows is intensely dysfunctional and has been for year, and is not going to get better by stopping the symptoms.  It isn't his job in the same way that it's Elthina's job, but I can imagine Hawke regretting not doing more about it after everything goes to ****.

I would have liked to have more options with Hawke in order to actually try to have Meredith fired, or Orsino fired, or at least an investigation into why Meredith is letting her templars interfere with Alain's bum.  

@abispa
I am going to try and like Cullen more in the next playthrough.  I never really forgave him for not turning a blind eye to Bethy after Hawke was so bloody helpful with finding Keran and stopping Tarohne, but I won't carry that grudge through to next playthrough.

[Lewie]

Britic wrote...

Pandaman102 wrote...

If Elthina's lack of action makes her a villain, then Hawke's lack of action in the time skip makes him/her a villain as well - and Hawke's even less excusable than Elthina because he/she is the one who's actually running around getting first hand experience of the aftermath of the Templar/Mage conflict (but doesn't actually ever see what the conditions are like in the Circle). Elthina's the head of the Kirkwall Chantry, she has other duties that prevents her from poking her nose in everything on a daily basis.

One of Elthina's duties however is to supervise the Templar Order, so as to prevent the abuses that are ongoing in Kirkwall, but she seems to willingly neglect this duty in favor of rejecting any suggestions as to what she should do.

In regards to Hawke being a villain, I think he is seen as one by nearly the whole of Thedas. The people likely believe that Hawke unleashed the mages on the rest of the world, resulting in its current state. If Hawke sided with the Templar's however he could easily be seen as an oppertunistic tyrant.

Elthina failed at point one, so how do you go from there to releasing an opportunistic tyrant into thedas. (Cough/Troll) 

[Britic]

louise101 wrote...

Britic wrote...

Pandaman102 wrote...

If Elthina's lack of action makes her a villain, then Hawke's lack of action in the time skip makes him/her a villain as well - and Hawke's even less excusable than Elthina because he/she is the one who's actually running around getting first hand experience of the aftermath of the Templar/Mage conflict (but doesn't actually ever see what the conditions are like in the Circle). Elthina's the head of the Kirkwall Chantry, she has other duties that prevents her from poking her nose in everything on a daily basis.

One of Elthina's duties however is to supervise the Templar Order, so as to prevent the abuses that are ongoing in Kirkwall, but she seems to willingly neglect this duty in favor of rejecting any suggestions as to what she should do.

In regards to Hawke being a villain, I think he is seen as one by nearly the whole of Thedas. The people likely believe that Hawke unleashed the mages on the rest of the world, resulting in its current state. If Hawke sided with the Templar's however he could easily be seen as an oppertunistic tyrant.

Elthina failed at point one, so how do you go from there to releasing an opportunistic tyrant into thedas. (Cough/Troll) 

Sorry I should have expanded on my point on Hawke better. I was trying to reply to your point that by my logic Hawke should be considered to a villain. I was trying to point out that Hawke may already be seen as villain by the rest of the world. My apologies.

[Rifneno]

TJPags wrote...

If you look at my prior post, you'll note that I do not recall any letter.

So, consider this a second request for some text, or a link to it.

That doesn't explain making the assumption that Karl was rightfully tranquilled based on the ridiculous notion that it must be legal because we don't have any evidence Orsino, whom we don't even see the first time for 3 years and don't talk to outside of trying to fight off an enemy invasion for 6 years, didn't complain to Elthina, a who brushes off everything under the claim that we should wait for the Maker to solve everything himself.  That is the most outlandish "reasoning" I've heard in quite some time.  And I'm not even getting into the whole "Anders word is worth nothing" debate and the fact the same could be used to say Tevinter is a Camelot-esque Utopia because the only sources we hear on it are heavily biased.

silverhammer08 wrote...

Well, seeing how Meredith squeezed and squeezed, it does make you wonder why Elthina did not step in to moderate the conflict or have her replaced. But who could she have chosen on such short notice to replace Meredith ? Cullen ? He's as much a zealoth as Meredith is.

Short notice?  Meredith has been asserting herself as controller of the city since before Hawke arrives seven years earlier.  We don't know how bad she is with the mages prior to Act III but the townsfolk do speak of rumors she's an extremist.  We do know, however, that she has been clearly in violation of Chantry law for many years.  Even Cullen eventually gets pissed off about the fact Meredith is exceeding her authority, stating that the Chantry says templars are no more to hold political power than mages are.  Time is no excuse for Elthina.  Judging by Cassandra's surprise that Meredith was involved in wrongdoing it seems that Elthina had never even bothered to inform the Divine that Meredith was a problem, let alone requested to have her replaced.  And while some will argue the point that Elthina would likely face resistance in trying to remove Meredith from power, no one can rationally argue that the Divine would.

louise101 wrote...

Cullen survived ferelden, that to me doesn't make him a zealot of any kind. It shows me he is true to being a templar, he was stuck under meredith, his own conviction, blood mage riots. He had a bad feeling about one of his own and cornered them. He wasn't exactly proved wrong.

Insert 'Ideally' comments here: 

Cullen didn't survive Ferelden because he's so awesome, he survived because the pride demon thought it'd be fun to imprison and torment him like a cat playing with a mouse until the Warden arrives and saves the day.  He clearly suffers from severe post-traumatic stress syndrome and being put in charge of members of the minority who wronged him to the point he no longer views them as human is an incredibly bad decision.

If you think he's not a zealot, read his codex.  He was transfered out of Ferelden because Gregior didn't trust him anymore and he rose to second-in-command in Kirkwall mainly because Meredith found him to be as much of a psychopath as she is.

Abispa wrote...

Cullen is a hero in my book. If any character had the personal history to make him a Meredith stooge, it was him. I'm sure that Circle Bethany is carrying his love-child, and my female mage Warden (see profile pic) would heartily approve that he's moved on and found a nice mage girl to play snuggle-bunnies with.

Odd, I never thought of Bethany as having such emotional damage as to be attracted to someone who thinks she's nothing but a weapon and doesn't deserve to be treated as a human being.  Then again, it seems a lot of templars are turned off by consensual sex so you may be right.

[Ollymandias]

Odd, I never thought of Bethany as having such emotional damage as to be attracted to someone who thinks she's nothing but a weapon and doesn't deserve to be treated as a human being. Then again, it seems a lot of templars are turned off by consensual sex so you may be right.

Is Cullen that bad? We don't see any "psychopathic" action from Cullen as far as I can remember. Alrik and Karras are obviously both scenery-chewing nutcases, but I don't recall Cullen actually doing something in DA2 which establishes that he actually "does not view mages as human".

[TJPags]

Rifneno wrote...

TJPags wrote...

If you look at my prior post, you'll note that I do not recall any letter.

So, consider this a second request for some text, or a link to it.

That doesn't explain making the assumption that Karl was rightfully tranquilled based on the ridiculous notion that it must be legal because we don't have any evidence Orsino, whom we don't even see the first time for 3 years and don't talk to outside of trying to fight off an enemy invasion for 6 years, didn't complain to Elthina, a who brushes off everything under the claim that we should wait for the Maker to solve everything himself.  That is the most outlandish "reasoning" I've heard in quite some time.  And I'm not even getting into the whole "Anders word is worth nothing" debate and the fact the same could be used to say Tevinter is a Camelot-esque Utopia because the only sources we hear on it are heavily biased.

Well, let's see - the only person we hear in game call it illegal is Anders.  Sorry, but I take his word for nothing.  He's a proven liar.  And biased as all hell.

We see no evidence that anyone else considers it illegal.  Lack of evidence is not evidence, I grant that.  I still refuse to simply take Anders word for anything.
And again, I said that we do not know if there are circumstances that would legally allow a mage to be made Tranquil after their Harrowing.  There very well may be.

Rifneno wrote...

louise101 wrote...

Cullen survived ferelden, that to me doesn't make him a zealot of any kind. It shows me he is true to being a templar, he was stuck under meredith, his own conviction, blood mage riots. He had a bad feeling about one of his own and cornered them. He wasn't exactly proved wrong.

Insert 'Ideally' comments here: 

Cullen didn't survive Ferelden because he's so awesome, he survived because the pride demon thought it'd be fun to imprison and torment him like a cat playing with a mouse until the Warden arrives and saves the day.  He clearly suffers from severe post-traumatic stress syndrome and being put in charge of members of the minority who wronged him to the point he no longer views them as human is an incredibly bad decision.

If you think he's not a zealot, read his codex.  He was transfered out of Ferelden because Gregior didn't trust him anymore and he rose to second-in-command in Kirkwall mainly because Meredith found him to be as much of a psychopath as she is.

Abispa wrote...

Cullen is a hero in my book. If any character had the personal history to make him a Meredith stooge, it was him. I'm sure that Circle Bethany is carrying his love-child, and my female mage Warden (see profile pic) would heartily approve that he's moved on and found a nice mage girl to play snuggle-bunnies with.

Odd, I never thought of Bethany as having such emotional damage as to be attracted to someone who thinks she's nothing but a weapon and doesn't deserve to be treated as a human being.  Then again, it seems a lot of templars are turned off by consensual sex so you may be right.

Cullen, the man who disobeys the rules of engagement for a RoA and actually takes prisoners, against the direct order of his commander.

Meh - is there a single Templar you DON'T think is worthless?

[Rifneno]

Ollymandias wrote...

Odd, I never thought of Bethany as having such emotional damage as to be attracted to someone who thinks she's nothing but a weapon and doesn't deserve to be treated as a human being. Then again, it seems a lot of templars are turned off by consensual sex so you may be right.

Is Cullen that bad? We don't see any "psychopathic" action from Cullen as far as I can remember. Alrik and Karras are obviously both scenery-chewing nutcases, but I don't recall Cullen actually doing something in DA2 which establishes that he actually "does not view mages as human".

At the end of the quest where you save Keran, pick the option along the lines of "the templars brought this on themselves."  Hawke will say "Templars have been systematically abusing mages for a thousand years."  Cullen will respond in disbelief, "How can you say that?  Mages aren't people like you and I."  I forget how exactly he says it, but he says they're weapons and not "people."

[Ollymandias]

I'd be more inclined to judge Cullen on his actions which show him as fairly reasonable (as far as I know), then on an admittedly horrible and offensive-to-mages comment he makes. Do we actually see him acting as though he doesn't see mages as people?

Modifié par Ollymandias, 28 avril 2011 - 01:21 .

[Rifneno]

Ollymandias wrote...

I'd be more inclined to judge Cullen on his actions which show him as fairly reasonable (as far as I know), then on an admittedly horrible and offensive-to-mages comment he makes. Do we actually see him acting as though he doesn't see mages as people?

Fair enough.  Though he still definitely seems to be a very strict hardliner.  Just seems much better because he's an honest one surrounded by psychopathic or downright evil templars.

[Pandaman102]

Britic wrote...

One of Elthina's duties however is to supervise the Templar Order, so as to prevent the abuses that are ongoing in Kirkwall, but she seems to willingly neglect this duty in favor of rejecting any suggestions as to what she should do.

In regards to Hawke being a villain, I think he is seen as one by nearly the whole of Thedas. The people likely believe that Hawke unleashed the mages on the rest of the world, resulting in its current state. If Hawke sided with the Templar's however he could easily be seen as an oppertunistic tyrant.

What are you interpreting as "supervise" in this case though? Certainly not to issue orders to every individual Templar or review every report on mages breaking Circle laws, that would be Meredith's and Orsino's duties. We've seen the corrupt Templars are opportunistic dogs - they are exceptionally harsh on mages (which in itself isn't violating any Chantry laws), but they don't kill or tranquil mages until after said mages actually break the law, by which point they're classified as apostates or maleficar. Elthina can't micromanage the Templars, if there was evidence of actual abuse of power then Meredith or Orsino should have reported it, and if Orsino did report it and Meredith stayed quiet, that might have been enough to imply her guilt.

Instead the two times Orsino leaves the Gallows to make a public complaint isn't to expose evidence of such abuses, but to complain about unfair treatment.

I'm not saying what Hawke is perceived as by the rest of the world, but that - very specifically - if Elthina is the villain of DA2 due to her inaction, Hawke is as well. In every plot quest Hawke didn't do anything, he/she reacts to events. Never actually takes a proactive stance to prevent the obvious brewing conflict from happening, just does a lot of gopher quests (or sleeps for three years at a time) and acts surprised when a glowrering Qunari finally blows his top or an emo mage plants a nuke in the middle of a city.