144 réponses à ce sujet

[Ollymandias]

Rifneno wrote...

Ollymandias wrote...

I'd be more inclined to judge Cullen on his actions which show him as fairly reasonable (as far as I know), then on an admittedly horrible and offensive-to-mages comment he makes. Do we actually see him acting as though he doesn't see mages as people?

Fair enough.  Though he still definitely seems to be a very strict hardliner.  Just seems much better because he's an honest one surrounded by psychopathic or downright evil templars.

Yeah, when he's standing between utter bastards like rape-happy Alrik and murder-enthusiast Karras, he does look a lot better.  And he's polite too, which helps.  

[Pandaman102]

Ollymandias wrote...

If you play a Hawke who refuses to take sides and bleats "but I don't want to choose who to support" and "why can't we all get along and be friends" and "I want a third way where nobody has to suffah!" then yeah, Hawke is just as bad.  In this case, Hawke is averting his eyes from the fact that the situation in the Gallows is intensely dysfunctional and has been for year, and is not going to get better by stopping the symptoms.  It isn't his job in the same way that it's Elthina's job, but I can imagine Hawke regretting not doing more about it after everything goes to ****.

I would have liked to have more options with Hawke in order to actually try to have Meredith fired, or Orsino fired, or at least an investigation into why Meredith is letting her templars interfere with Alain's bum.

That's the thing, regardless of what personality you pick in conversations or quests you take, Hawke doesn't actually do anything other than talk big and follows up by beating around the bush. If you're actively pro-Templar, you don't get to investigate the blood mages and reveal that Orsino is actually turning a blind eye and/or hiding evidence to prevent Meredith from getting more ammunition, but on the other hand if you're actively pro-Mage you don't get to investigate how far up the chain of command the Templar corruption actually goes.

Instead Orsino pulls his connection to Quentin out of his derriere in the last five seconds before he turns into the Brood Mother's nephew and Meredith pulls out her Sith lightsaber (not that we didn't already notice it on her freaking back throughout Act 3. "Oh, gee, Meredith, that's a really... interesting sword you have there. I don't know why, but I can't recognize it until you actually wave it in our face at the end!") just as she's throwing her lyrium-fueled conniption.

We really didn't need Anders blowing up the Chantry to force a confrontation, we just needed to expose either side to force an act of desperation that would shatter the peace and make Hawke the actual catalyst for change.

[Britic]

Pandaman102 wrote...

Instead Orsino pulls his connection to Quentin out of his derriere in the last five seconds before he turns into the Brood Mother's nephew and Meredith pulls out her Sith lightsaber (not that we didn't already notice it on her freaking back throughout Act 3. "Oh, gee, Meredith, that's a really... interesting sword you have there. I don't know why, but I can't recognize it until you actually wave it in our face at the end!") just as she's throwing her lyrium-fueled conniption.

We really didn't need Anders blowing up the Chantry to force a confrontation, we just needed to expose either side to force an act of desperation that would shatter the peace and make Hawke the actual catalyst for change.

You know I was also wondering about how no one noticed Meredith's sword, or how Varric couldn't find the idol's buyer. I could probably just chalk it up to the third act being rushed as all hell though.

Modifié par Britic, 28 avril 2011 - 01:45 .

[MassEffect762]

Demons for the most part.

Humans in part.

EA.

[Ollymandias]

I wish they had explained why the idol was a sword in Act 3.

Until they said straight-out that it was an idol, I'd thought it was related to the Fool's Gold quest where the dwarven brothers find a super sword in the deep roads and it makes one of them go murder-monster and betray everyone.

[fchopin]

The true villain is Hawke.

Hawke killed halve the population of Kirkwall in the first 2 acts and finished the job in act 3.

[Britic]

Ollymandias wrote...

I wish they had explained why the idol was a sword in Act 3.

Until they said straight-out that it was an idol, I'd thought it was related to the Fool's Gold quest where the dwarven brothers find a super sword in the deep roads and it makes one of them go murder-monster and betray everyone.

Better yet they dont explain why Meredith, despite regularly consuming Lyrium, thought the abnormaly red idol was in fact pure lyrium.

[Pandaman102]

Britic wrote...

You know I was also wondering about how no one noticed Meredith's sword, or how Varric couldn't find the idol's buyer. I could probably just chalk it up to the third act being rushed as all hell though.

I complain but the truth is I already know it's simply another one of those "gameplay and story are divorced" design decisions present in a lot of Bioware's games.

Why don't the civilians die in a fire when I throw a fireball around them? Why don't the Templars notice me prancing about in robes and waving a sparkley staff about? Why is Hawke's blood magic inferior to NPC blood magic? Why can enemies jump from the fourth floor of a building to ambush me but I can't get Hawke to jump over an ankle-high obstruction?

Why does Varric get to be so much more awesome than my character?

Oh, wait, no, that last bit isn't a gameplay/story break.

[Huntress]

Abispa wrote...

Cullen is a hero in my book. If any character had the personal history to make him a Meredith stooge, it was him. I'm sure that Circle Bethany is carrying his love-child, and my female mage Warden (see profile pic) would heartily approve that he's moved on and found a nice mage girl to play snuggle-bunnies with.

Really? Cullen don't see mages as people.

The only way beth or any mage would carry his child is if cullen raped them after covering their heads, so he wouldn't mistake them as  humans beings.<_<
Yes a hero! indeed.

Modifié par Huntress, 28 avril 2011 - 01:57 .

[Pandaman102]

Britic wrote...

Better yet they dont explain why Meredith, despite regularly consuming Lyrium, thought the abnormaly red idol was in fact pure lyrium.

To quote a wise scholar:

"BECUZ RED MAKES IT GO FASTAH. WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGHHHHHHH!"

/wh40kreference

[Britic]

Pandaman102 wrote...

Britic wrote...

Better yet they dont explain why Meredith, despite regularly consuming Lyrium, thought the abnormaly red idol was in fact pure lyrium.

To quote a wise scholar:

"BECUZ RED MAKES IT GO FASTAH. WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGHHHHHHH!"

/wh40kreference

So Meredith&Templars=Orkz, that actually makes a good bit of sense, or altleast why there are so many despite me easily killing hundreds of them.

[Lewie]

Britic wrote...

louise101 wrote...

Britic wrote...

Pandaman102 wrote...

If Elthina's lack of action makes her a villain, then Hawke's lack of action in the time skip makes him/her a villain as well - and Hawke's even less excusable than Elthina because he/she is the one who's actually running around getting first hand experience of the aftermath of the Templar/Mage conflict (but doesn't actually ever see what the conditions are like in the Circle). Elthina's the head of the Kirkwall Chantry, she has other duties that prevents her from poking her nose in everything on a daily basis.

One of Elthina's duties however is to supervise the Templar Order, so as to prevent the abuses that are ongoing in Kirkwall, but she seems to willingly neglect this duty in favor of rejecting any suggestions as to what she should do.

In regards to Hawke being a villain, I think he is seen as one by nearly the whole of Thedas. The people likely believe that Hawke unleashed the mages on the rest of the world, resulting in its current state. If Hawke sided with the Templar's however he could easily be seen as an oppertunistic tyrant.

Elthina failed at point one, so how do you go from there to releasing an opportunistic tyrant into thedas. (Cough/Troll) 

Sorry I should have expanded on my point on Hawke better. I was trying to reply to your point that by my logic Hawke should be considered to a villain. I was trying to point out that Hawke may already be seen as villain by the rest of the world. My apologies.

Sorry, i jumped too quick. I have always seen hawke as an unforeseen villian, if she/he had not even went into the deep roads... we would still be scowling at gamlen. By now Varric would be throwing mugs at Norah, Aveline would have gave up and been in Orlais with Donnic scowling at locals, Fenris would be scowling the whole blasted country, Isabella would be still swimming, Merril would have fallen asleep and Anders would have maybe still blown up the chantry, Elthina would die tea in hand, and flemeth would catch the cup. 

Modifié par louise101, 28 avril 2011 - 02:18 .

[Pandaman102]

louise101 wrote...

Sorry, i jumped too quick. I have always seen hawke as an unforeseen villian, if she/he had not even went into the deep roads... we would still be scowling at gamlen. By now Varric would be throwing mugs at Norah, Aveline would have gave up and been in Orlais with Donnic scowling at locals, Fenris would be scowling the whole blasted country, Isabella would be still swimming, Merril would have fallen asleep and Anders would have maybe still blown up the chantry, Elthina would die tea in hand, and flemeth would catch the cup. 

Varric does tell Cassandra that events may not have happened if Hawke hadn't come to Kirkwall, but is that really true?

• Bartrand and Varric already had the Deep Roads expedition planned without Hawke's involvement.
• Varric already knew there was a Grey Warden in Kirkwall, and being the "information broker" of Kirkwall it's a given he would have found Anders without Hawke's help (not that Anders was doing a particularly good job hiding himself).
• Anders was willing to part with his maps to help his friend, who was in trouble even before Hawke showed up, so the offer would have been on the table for anyone who asked.
• Dougal would still be offering the 50 gold to fund the expedition, all he needed was a proxy (didn't have to be Hawke) that Varric (who doesn't like Dougal, but does want the expedition to succeed) would vouch for.
• The cave-in in the Deep Roads would have been there regardless of Hawke's presence, but so would the detour around it. It's arguable that the expedition could have failed at this point, but it's also arguable they would still have succeeded.
• At this point the lyrium idol would have been found, Bartrand would betray Varric, Varric most likely would have died, but ultimately the idol is now out of the Deep Roads and headed for the inevitable saggy bosoms of Meredith.
• The Qunari invasion would have happened and they would have abandoned Kirkwall reagardless of Hawke as well. Why? Because the Arishok would have learned about the sale of the Book to the Tevinters, taken a ship from the docks, and given chase. It's obvious the Arishok considers the book and Isabela far more important than Kirkwall.
• The conflict between the Templar and the Mages would have been sparked by Anders regardless of Hawke as well, evident by the fact that if you ignore his bomb-building quest he still manages to build it anyway.
• At this point is where Hawke's actions the only real history-changer. If Hawke wasn't around, Orsino would have been squashed by the idol-powered Meredith-bots and Meredith would have survived... but that still wouldn't change the fact that all other Circles will hear of the rebellion, completely ignore the rampant use of blood magic or crazy idol factor (which is what they do anyway at the end of the game), and gone on to rebel themselves.

Modifié par Pandaman102, 28 avril 2011 - 02:42 .

[Ollymandias]

Huntress implied...
Cullen rape rape rape

Not sure there's any evidence Cullen is pro-rape. If we take his quotation about 'mages not being people like you and I' as the sole article of evidence and ignore all the okay and reasonable stuff we see from him in game, then we could think of him as a bastard.

But if we do the same to Merrill, and take some quotations out of context from the rest of her actions, we could conclude that she is a racist. She calls Hawke a 'shem' in a fit of anger after he refuses to hand over the Arulin'dindinlin and refers to Feynriel as a 'half-breed' because she is jealous that he is getting attention from Maretheri.

I am not convinced that Merrill is a racist, nor that Cullen is terrorising mages and abusing his position.

Unless there is more evidence to support that Cullen is indeed abusing his position, I'm not sure that denouncing him as a rapist or potential rapist has much basis at all.

Modifié par Ollymandias, 28 avril 2011 - 03:40 .

[LobselVith8]

Ollymandias wrote...

Not sure there's any evidence Cullen is pro-rape. If we take his quotation about 'mages not being people like you and I' as the sole article of evidence and ignore all the okay and reasonable stuff we see from him in game, then we could think of him as a bastard.

But if we do the same to Merrill, and take some quotations out of context from the rest of her actions, we could conclude that she is a racist. She calls Hawke a 'shem' in a fit of anger after he refuses to hand over the Arulin'dindinlin and refers to Feynriel as a 'half-breed' because she is jealous that he is getting attention from Maretheri.

I am not convinced that Merrill is a racist, nor that Cullen is terrorising mages and abusing his position.

Unless there is more evidence to support that Cullen is indeed abusing his position, I'm not sure that denouncing him as a rapist or potential rapist has much basis at all.

I think Huntress was addressing that since Cullen ripped Bethany from her family and imprisoned her in the Gallows, didn't seem to have a problem with the Rite of Tranquility or the "Tranquil Solution," addressed that mages shouldn't be treated as people, and said he saw mages as weapons, that it's unlikely that Cullen would have a romantic relationship with Bethany given his views.

[Ollymandias]

LobselVith8 wrote...

I think Huntress was addressing that since Cullen ripped Bethany from her family and imprisoned her in the Gallows, didn't seem to have a problem with the Rite of Tranquility or the "Tranquil Solution," addressed that mages shouldn't be treated as people, and said he saw mages as weapons, that it's unlikely that Cullen would have a romantic relationship with Bethany given his views.

That's fair enough.  I found it... well, fairly obnoxious when Cullen came to get Bethany from Gamlen's house after Hawke had been so helpful and done his job for him regarding Keren and Tarohne, AND saved his life from Wilmod and his friends.  I mean, on top of the mutual back-scratching I was hoping for, I am hanging with an abomination and a blood mage too, but he comes to arrest my saintly sister?  What?  Still, he was doing his job in a reasonable way and tried to make it the least unpleasant he could.

Not sure he would have been a-ok with the "Tranquil Solution" as nobody except Alrik was seen to want that.  Even Meredith wasn't okay with it.  Maybe I haven't explored his dialogue as thoroughly as I should have.

I think that a romantic relationship with Bethany is about exactly as unlikely as him raping Bethany.

Modifié par Ollymandias, 28 avril 2011 - 04:38 .

[Rifneno]

Ollymandias wrote...

That's fair enough.  I found it... well, fairly obnoxious when Cullen came to get Bethany from Gamlen's house after Hawke had been so helpful and done his job for him regarding Keren and Tarohne, AND saved his life from Wilmod and his friends.  I mean, on top of the mutual back-scratching I was hoping for, I am hanging with an abomination and a blood mage too, but he comes to arrest my saintly sister?  What?  Still, he was doing his job in a reasonable way and tried to make it the least unpleasant he could.

Not sure he would have been a-ok with the "Tranquil Solution" as nobody except Alrik was seen to want that.  Even Meredith wasn't okay with it.  Maybe I haven't explored his dialogue as thoroughly as I should have.

I think that a romantic relationship with Bethany is about exactly as unlikely as him raping Bethany.

I think I was the one that initially made a Cullen-rapist remark but to clarify I made it as a sarcastic jab at the Kirkwall Order as a whole, not Cullen.  I consider him a douche, but a law-abiding and honest douche.

As for the Tranquil Solution, take the papers to him after killing Alrik but still in Act II.  He'll briefly acknowledge Hawke's plot armor (and Ander's, if he's in the group) and say something along the lines of "it's up to the mages if we use more extreme methods."  You're then given the dialogue option to ask what he thinks of it.  This part I had written down because it's fairly damning to Cullen's character.

Dialogue option: "Do you approve of the plan?"
Hawke: It sounds like you support this.
Cullen: The Tranquil ritual was created as a mercy so that mages need not be killed out of hand for a threat they might pose. There is an argument to be made for applying it more widely.
Anders: Are you going to listen to this? He's no better than Ser Alrik.
Cullen: Do you think it's easy to contain a mage who truly wants to deal with demons? We have done our best. But many mages have made it clear they view the ritual as no better than death. They want no controls on them at all.

Riiight.  They "want no controls on them at all" because they don't want their soul stolen.  Go to hell, Cullen.  If I get the chance in DA3 or a DLC, I'll send you there myself.

[Pandaman102]

Mezzil wrote...

Then there is that epilogue slide that says Cullen murders three apprentices before running off to be a threat to any mage that runs into him.

And in several people's imported saves Leliana died, Anders was handed over to the Templar and never became a Warden, and Cullen succeeded Greagor as Knight Commander of the Ferelden Circle.

Things got retconned.

[Ollymandias]

Rifneno wrote...

I think I was the one that initially made a Cullen-rapist remark but to clarify I made it as a sarcastic jab at the Kirkwall Order as a whole, not Cullen.  I consider him a douche, but a law-abiding and honest douche.

As for the Tranquil Solution, take the papers to him after killing Alrik but still in Act II.  He'll briefly acknowledge Hawke's plot armor (and Ander's, if he's in the group) and say something along the lines of "it's up to the mages if we use more extreme methods."  You're then given the dialogue option to ask what he thinks of it.  This part I had written down because it's fairly damning to Cullen's character.

Dialogue option: "Do you approve of the plan?"
Hawke: It sounds like you support this.
Cullen: The Tranquil ritual was created as a mercy so that mages need not be killed out of hand for a threat they might pose. There is an argument to be made for applying it more widely.
Anders: Are you going to listen to this? He's no better than Ser Alrik.
Cullen: Do you think it's easy to contain a mage who truly wants to deal with demons? We have done our best. But many mages have made it clear they view the ritual as no better than death. They want no controls on them at all.

Riiight.  They "want no controls on them at all" because they don't want their soul stolen.  Go to hell, Cullen.  If I get the chance in DA3 or a DLC, I'll send you there myself.

Huh.  He's being very careful in his wording there, trying desperately not to give a straight answer.  The "we have done our best" part doesn't ring very true, after we've just been on a mission where we see Alrik gleefully looking forward to first tranquilizing then raping a girl.  Doing their best, indeed.  I do think that Anders is being unnecessarily black-and-white about it... but that's Anders all over.

I am definitely going to pay  more attention to Cullen in this playthrough.  I had no idea he was so responsive to chatting.

[IanPolaris]

Cullen is an extremist who really doesn't view mages as people. His actions and words make that clear all throughout. He only seems moderate because we see him compared against the likes of Ser Alrik and Meredith (one of whom is a psychopath and the other criminally insane).

It's the comparison and the fact that Cullen doesn't go over the top hostile that makes him seem moderate. He's not. He's only a moderate by the standards of the Templars of Kirkwall...which ain't saying much.

-Polaris

[Rifneno]

IanPolaris wrote...

Cullen is an extremist who really doesn't view mages as people. His actions and words make that clear all throughout. He only seems moderate because we see him compared against the likes of Ser Alrik and Meredith (one of whom is a psychopath and the other criminally insane).

It's the comparison and the fact that Cullen doesn't go over the top hostile that makes him seem moderate. He's not. He's only a moderate by the standards of the Templars of Kirkwall...which ain't saying much.

-Polaris

And the fact that he's always very respectful and nice to Hawke.  Too many people mistake being good to the PC with being good period.  As you say, Cullen isn't even remotely moderate.

[nos_astra]

He is called moderate because he is halfway between Thrask and Karras. The typical templar who is wary of mages and wants to see them under control.

Modifié par klarabella, 28 avril 2011 - 07:21 .

[lobi]

There is Rascist overtones all through this game. Defence of the downtrodden is only given lip service by all but the familys of mages. All but ten mages out of the total number are either blood mages getting possessed or criminals. Templars have rebeled also, to what tranquil/kill all mages? most likely. The everyone is evil except you shtic. Hooray for war on terror.

[AlexXIV]

Varric. He convinced Hawke to go to the Deep Roads and probably knew 'what was down there'. He is just a big liar so he makes everyone including Cassandra think it was Hawke.