144 réponses à ce sujet

[nos_astra]

lobi wrote...
There is racist overtones all through this game.

The blatant racism is part of the lore.

Modifié par klarabella, 28 avril 2011 - 08:24 .

[grimmjow01]

rascism aside....the true enemy of this game, the reason things went ta heck in the in was because of one person. Elfina, the grand cleric, is the reason things escalated to this point and resulted in the attack of the qunari, theconflict between mages/templars, death and war of many innocence. Misguided ideals furthered along by a cursed idol didnt help of course. Meredith was a parinoid and fearful ignorant 4yr reliving the horrors of what happened in early childhood. She used her fear to justify imprisonment and death of others that made her not feel safe. to her, Control = safety, but the demon already hads its control on her regardless .... through fear itself. Elfina however was the true idiot that started this whole mess. Her refusal to take action, to simply justify er ignorance and blind eye to everything happening around her by simply using the maker as an excuse not to act herself was the reason everythin went to hell. A neutral leader was needed to calm quarrels and quickly correct misguided ideals and conflicts.....but instead she choose to shut her eyes tightly while sitting in a dog fight ring and just hope things would just go away. just because the blood of others isnt directly on ur hands doesnt make you any less responsible. Those who have the power and authority to act and choose not to, have taken part in that act all the same.....the are just as responsible because they allow it to happen, and find any excuse not to get invloved.

[grimmjow01]

Britic wrote...

I've been going through many of the DA2 forums, and in them I have seen complaints that DA2 lacked a true villain. To which I say you are wrong: ...Grand Cleric Elthina.

I am sensing through your computers that you might be pulling away, but hear me out:

Her gross dereliction of duty:

Now I'm not refering to her refusal to take sides in the mage-templar conflict, but rather her actions, or lack thereof, against Meredith. Despite Meredith's repeated violation of Chantry law, in regards to the use of the Rite of Tranquility at least, Elthina thinks that any action on her part would violate her duties. Rather than contact the Divine and request for Meredith to replaced by a new Knight-Commander, Elthina seems to be content with making herself a cup of tea and watching the ensuring chaos.

Thoughts?

i agree completely........ those with the responsibility to act, and choose not to......are just as responsible, if not more, for the acts of others that they turn a blind eye too and allow to happen.  already talked bout all this though, but i agree with the above statement.  Elfina was the reason things blew up!

[Ulicus]

TJPags wrote...
Well, let's see - the only person we hear in game call it illegal is
Anders.  Sorry, but I take his word for nothing.  He's a proven liar. 
And biased as all hell.

We see no evidence that anyone else
considers it illegal.  Lack of evidence is not evidence, I grant that.  I
still refuse to simply take Anders word for anything.
And again, I
said that we do not know if there are circumstances that would legally
allow a mage to be made Tranquil after their Harrowing.  There very well
may be.

.

In Dragon Age: Origins - Awakening:

Warden: Why didn't they just make you tranquil? (referring to his seven escape attempts)
Anders: Haaa! They can't make you tranquil after you've passed the Harrowing!

If it were legal, Anders himself would have been tranquil long before DA2 began.

...

Hey, maybe it SHOULD be legal.

[Rifneno]

klarabella wrote...

He is called moderate because he is halfway between Thrask and Karras. The typical templar who is wary of mages and wants to see them under control.

That assumes Thrask is the opposite of Karras.  He's not.  Tevinter is the opposite of Karras.  Thrask is just one of the few templars who has an intelligent and fair view of his duty rather than a power-abusing monster (Alrik) or a borderline psychotic (Cullen).

grimmjow01 wrote...

rascism aside....the true enemy of this game, the reason things went ta heck in the in was because of one person. Elfina, the grand cleric, is the reason things escalated to this point and resulted in the attack of the qunari, theconflict between mages/templars, death and war of many innocence. Misguided ideals furthered along by a cursed idol didnt help of course. Meredith was a parinoid and fearful ignorant 4yr reliving the horrors of what happened in early childhood. She used her fear to justify imprisonment and death of others that made her not feel safe. to her, Control = safety, but the demon already hads its control on her regardless .... through fear itself. Elfina however was the true idiot that started this whole mess. Her refusal to take action, to simply justify er ignorance and blind eye to everything happening around her by simply using the maker as an excuse not to act herself was the reason everythin went to hell. A neutral leader was needed to calm quarrels and quickly correct misguided ideals and conflicts.....but instead she choose to shut her eyes tightly while sitting in a dog fight ring and just hope things would just go away. just because the blood of others isnt directly on ur hands doesnt make you any less responsible. Those who have the power and authority to act and choose not to, have taken part in that act all the same.....the are just as responsible because they allow it to happen, and find any excuse not to get invloved.

This.  I facepalm everytime someone mentions Anders killing "that nice old lady."  That self-righteous **** could've prevented a massive war by just doing her job but instead she turns a blind eye to everything because "we must trust in the Maker."  The Maker who your own religion says has abandoned mankind?  That Maker?  Her idiocy and zealotry makes her an accessory to everything that happened.  The only injustice in her death was that it was quick and painless.

[Sussurus]

Rifneno wrote...
Odd, I never thought of Bethany as having such emotional damage as to be attracted to someone who thinks she's nothing but a weapon and doesn't deserve to be treated as a human being.  Then again, it seems a lot of templars are turned off by consensual sex so you may be right.

I thought this too, I presumed it was so, due to every time I played DA:O on release - a year ago the credits told me as such.

I played DA:O again a few weeks back, I think they ret con'd it after WH, I got no pop up about Cullen.
Then in WH at the circle tower my Amell female mage heard two mages talking about Cullen.
Seemingly Greggor sent him out of the tower on sabatical to calm his nerves, as he was twitchy around the mages.

TBH I think it's a brilliant marketing move..
BW  "what, we did not do anything, look he's allways been that way check for youself."
WH pretty much gave the entire plot to DA, it was DA:2" lite TM.

Modifié par Sussurus, 28 avril 2011 - 11:15 .

[ddv.rsa]

Ulicus wrote...

In Dragon Age: Origins - Awakening:

Warden: Why didn't they just make you tranquil? (referring to his seven escape attempts)
Anders: Haaa! They can't make you tranquil after you've passed the Harrowing!

If it were legal, Anders himself would have been tranquil long before DA2 began.

...

Hey, maybe it SHOULD be legal.

Anders is a liar, so what's new? It is in fact legal to perform the rite of tranquilty on a harrowed mage, but only under certain circumstances.

Link: social.bioware.com/%5Burl=%5Burl=http%3A/social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/304/index/7058889&lf=8

Modifié par ddv.rsa, 28 avril 2011 - 11:20 .

[nos_astra]

Rifneno wrote...

klarabella wrote...
He is called moderate because he is halfway between Thrask and Karras. The typical templar who is wary of mages and wants to see them under control.

That assumes Thrask is the opposite of Karras.  He's not.  Tevinter is the opposite of Karras.

Do try to focus please. It should be fairly obvious what people are speaking about when they say Cullen is fairly moderate among the templars, as in the sample of templars we get to see in Origins and DA2.

Of course, we could argue that Gregoir was the epitome of moderate, then Cullen leans a tad more to the extremist side. (Again, among the templars!)

Rifneno wrote...
Thrask is just one of the few templars who has an intelligent and fair view of his duty rather than a power-abusing monster (Alrik) or a borderline psychotic (Cullen).

Thrask is the idiot who helped Grace escape twice and enabled her to kidnap your sibling/love interest.
That Alrik is a sadist is out of question.
The last time I saw Cullen really freaked out by mages was in the magi origin in DAO and when you found him later in a force field right before you enter the Harrowing chamber. The epilogue slides got retconned anway. The way he's portrayed in DA2 only, I felt he's the kind of templar who could be made to support an improvement to the Circle system.

[Ulicus]

ddv.rsa wrote...

Ulicus wrote...

In Dragon Age: Origins - Awakening:

Warden: Why didn't they just make you tranquil? (referring to his seven escape attempts)
Anders: Haaa! They can't make you tranquil after you've passed the Harrowing!

If it were legal, Anders himself would have been tranquil long before DA2 began.

...

Hey, maybe it SHOULD be legal.

Anders is a liar, so what's new? It is in fact legal to perform the rite of tranquilty on a harrowed mage, but only under certain circumstances.

Link: social.bioware.com/%5Burl=%5Burl=http%3A/social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/304/index/7058889&lf=8

Oh, okay. Thanks for the link.

Though I think that must have been a retcon... otherwise Anders not having already been made tranquil seems really silly.

EDIT:
But, wait... reading further along, the implication only seems to be that mages who have passed their Harrowing can elect to be made tranquil. Forcing them to be made tranquil against their will after they've passed the Harrowing still appears to be illegal without the consent of the First Enchanter.

Modifié par Ulicus, 28 avril 2011 - 11:45 .

[IanPolaris]

ddv.rsa wrote...

Ulicus wrote...

In Dragon Age: Origins - Awakening:

Warden: Why didn't they just make you tranquil? (referring to his seven escape attempts)
Anders: Haaa! They can't make you tranquil after you've passed the Harrowing!

If it were legal, Anders himself would have been tranquil long before DA2 began.

...

Hey, maybe it SHOULD be legal.

Anders is a liar, so what's new? It is in fact legal to perform the rite of tranquilty on a harrowed mage, but only under certain circumstances.

Link: social.bioware.com/%5Burl=%5Burl=http%3A/social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/304/index/7058889&lf=8

Actually this seems to be another case of DG talking out of his posterior without checking with the rest of his writers.  If you loot the Templar Lieutenant during DIssent before you kill Ser Alrik, you can loot a letter (you can find it in the Codex entries of the game on Wiki) that coloberate what everyone else is saying:  You can't tranquil (legally) a Harrowed Mage.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Ulicus wrote...

EDIT:
But, wait... reading further along, the implication only seems to be that mages who have passed their Harrowing can elect to be made tranquil. Forcing them to be made tranquil against their will after they've passed the Harrowing still appears to be illegal without the consent of the First Enchanter.

Yep, not only is it a blatent retcon (and it might not even be that...it might be DG not checking with the rest of his team...it's happened before and see my post above), but there is no way that Orsino would so-sign a statement with Meredith saying the sky is blue let alone a tranquility order.

In addition to that, again if you actually look the Templar LT during the Dissent Fight, you learn that Karl's tranquility was in fact illegal.

-Polaris

[Ulicus]

Well, that's just it. After reading the link in full, I don't think DG was retconning anything. He was just pointing out circumstances in which the rite can be performed on a post-Harrowing mage legally. 1) They ask for it. 2) The First Enchanter decides it needs to be done

And those circumstances weren't Karl's.

(And, presumably, Irving never agreed to make Anders tranquil, either. So the Templars couldn't do anything.)

[ddv.rsa]

They need to ask for it OR the First Enchanter needs to agree, not both. Maybe what happened in DA2 is Irving's fault for not allowing a proven troublemaker like Anders to be tranquilized.

[Ulicus]

ddv.rsa wrote...

They need to ask for it OR the First Enchanter needs to agree, not both.

No-one said otherwise.

[FedericoV]

The true villain of DA2 is the short development cycle.

[Lewie]

It seems like if one side had a dirty git they are all tarred with the same brush. If one templar agrees with the rite they all do, if you see a few blood mages you suspect most that you meet maybe are. It doesn't leave a lot of room for clear cut choices. No matter what side i choose im still left with doubts either way.

[Ulicus]

FedericoV wrote...

The true villain of DA2 is the short development cycle.

Can't argue with that.

[88mphSlayer]

llandwynwyn wrote...

It was obviously Kirkwall itself.

yep, it's like The Shining or Bioshock... the true villian here is the setting

[Ollymandias]

klarabella wrote...

The way he's portrayed in DA2 only, I felt he's the kind of templar who could be made to support an improvement to the Circle system.

I just played the conversation after you get Keran back from being kidnapped by Tarohne, and there's a dialogue option saying that the Circle doesn't work and there must be a better way.  

Cullen responded with "Yeah!  I see your point... hey, I know!  We can explain and discuss with the mages why the Maker deems it necessary for you lot to be locked up and oppressed!  Then you lot won't be so upset about it!" (wildly paraphrased)  

So, er, yeah.  He seems to see that there are problems with the system but actually coming up with a sensible fix for it doesn't seem forthcoming from him.  After his traumatic experience, I guess he doesn't like the Fereldan Circle's method of a close working relationship and deep, long-term professional bond between Knight Commander and First Enchanter where the Knight Commander has Templars who get twitchy around mages transferred away and the First Enchanter talks to everyone like he's your grandad.

Modifié par Ollymandias, 28 avril 2011 - 02:29 .

[Siansonea]

The OP makes a good point. And Elthina even had Leiliana to carry word back to the Divine, but she didn't, or at least we don't know that she did. The Divine, in any case, should have been well aware of Meredith's increasing instability through Leiliana's report. Regardless of what Elthina said or didn't say to Leiliana, she could see with her own eyes that the conflict was escalating, and regardless of what everyone was saying to downplay the situation, Leiliana should have advised the Divine to replace Meredith, Orsino, AND Elthina.

Modifié par Siansonea II, 28 avril 2011 - 03:59 .

[Alamar2078]

I thought it was supposed to be obvious that almost everyone [including companions] are in the villian category.

-- The Chantry/Templars putting a circle where the veil is so thin is criminally negligent ... or intentional??

-- Meredith was likely too harsh even without getting corrupted and didn't purge "bullies" out of the Templar ranks thus indirectly condoing bad behaviour.

-- Orisino for much of the game seems like the only level headed character but he supports "his" blood mages.

-- GC Elthina has a set of beliefs that keeps her from doing what's needed [removing Meredith]

-- The Viscount seems weak and seems to be fine to put a lid on boiling water [thus building up pressure]

-- Isabella [in many goody 2 shoes playthroughs] will steal the relic to save her own hide thus indirectly causing the Arishock to go nuts and lots of people to get killed.

-- Anders/Justice [IMHO] has been plotting this for a long time and is happy to "use" Hawke to achieve his ends and touch off a "world war".

-- The city nobles let Meredith intimidate them so they're too afraid to support a new Viscount.

[KnightofPhoenix]

The true villains are the writers and short development time like Federicov said.

In the game, everyone. Or rather, demons. Or maybe just the thin veil. In any case, it's simply insanity taking over for whatever reason, that swept aside most of the humanity and complexity of the issue so that we don't feel any tension at all. Even dystopias have more nuance than this.

[LilyasAvalon]

The REAL villian is peer pressure.

[88mphSlayer]

LilyasAvalon wrote...

The REAL villian is peer pressure.

Dragon Age 2 does sorta remind me of middle school...

[Alex Kershaw]

The true villain of DA2 is Mike Laidlaw.