144 réponses à ce sujet

[sadako]

The true villain is the storywriter.. Here was I being led to think that kirkwall hides some deep secrets from the codex entry about how slaved were killed and bled for possible blood magic ceremonies, only to find that it was a random idol found in Deep Roads that made everything go to hell.

[Rifneno]

sadako wrote...

The true villain is the storywriter.. Here was I being led to think that kirkwall hides some deep secrets from the codex entry about how slaved were killed and bled for possible blood magic ceremonies, only to find that it was a random idol found in Deep Roads that made everything go to hell.

We don't really know for sure what the idol is and how it affected the mage-templar conflict other than to give Meredith comic book supervillain powers.  One theory going around is that the idol itself isn't inherently evil, it just enhances whatever the dominant emotion or feeling is.  This would explain why that chip stopped making Varric batty once he left Bartrand's estate.  It would also explain why Meredith went mad in a totally different way, succumbing to her paranoia.  It's also possible, though unlikely given the circumstances, that the idol may be connected to Kirkwall's thin veil.

While the idol is responsible for Meredith's madness, I think the thin veil story arc is responsible for the mages' madness.  Mages are certainly going mad or turning to blood magic much more often in Kirkwall than elsewhere and it can't all be explained by desperation against Meredith's reign.  Look at Evelina for instance.  By all accounts a great person who only thought of others.  A few years in the Kirkwall Circle and she's a stark raving mad abomination.  The Enigma of Kirkwall story tells us why the mages are going bad.  The mages going bad leads to the templars being extremists and also going bad.  The idol was just the stray spark that lit the powder keg.

[IanPolaris]

Rifneno wrote...

sadako wrote...

The true villain is the storywriter.. Here was I being led to think that kirkwall hides some deep secrets from the codex entry about how slaved were killed and bled for possible blood magic ceremonies, only to find that it was a random idol found in Deep Roads that made everything go to hell.

We don't really know for sure what the idol is and how it affected the mage-templar conflict other than to give Meredith comic book supervillain powers.  One theory going around is that the idol itself isn't inherently evil, it just enhances whatever the dominant emotion or feeling is.  This would explain why that chip stopped making Varric batty once he left Bartrand's estate.  It would also explain why Meredith went mad in a totally different way, succumbing to her paranoia.  It's also possible, though unlikely given the circumstances, that the idol may be connected to Kirkwall's thin veil.

While the idol is responsible for Meredith's madness, I think the thin veil story arc is responsible for the mages' madness.  Mages are certainly going mad or turning to blood magic much more often in Kirkwall than elsewhere and it can't all be explained by desperation against Meredith's reign.  Look at Evelina for instance.  By all accounts a great person who only thought of others.  A few years in the Kirkwall Circle and she's a stark raving mad abomination.  The Enigma of Kirkwall story tells us why the mages are going bad.  The mages going bad leads to the templars being extremists and also going bad.  The idol was just the stray spark that lit the powder keg.

Yeah, Kirkwall is built on the Thedas equivalent of a Hellmouth.  That seems to be a vitally important part of the story and puzzle to me.  Too bad we only learn about it in codex snippets that most players won't even bother to read....oh yeah....that was done to make the mages look bad so the Templars don't seem to be as 'morally dark' a choice as they really are.

Gotcha.  Bad Writing.

-Polaris

[Lewie]

Last play i just finished act 2. Act 3 starts with the moment where Elthina tells Meredith to go back to the gallows 'like a good girl', she simply bows and walks off. The look between them is dodgy, its so difficult to say who is corrupt i thought even Elthina is using blood magic. The harimanns are not mages yet still tear people down through demons.

Polaris, everyone in kirkwall is susceptible to a demon, accept that fact.

[Rifneno]

louise101 wrote...

Last play i just finished act 2. Act 3 starts with the moment where Elthina tells Meredith to go back to the gallows 'like a good girl', she simply bows and walks off. The look between them is dodgy, its so difficult to say who is corrupt i thought even Elthina is using blood magic. The harimanns are not mages yet still tear people down through demons.

Polaris, everyone in kirkwall is susceptible to a demon, accept that fact.

I can't imagine Elthina using blood magic.  It reminds me of that scene in the Simpsons where Mr. Burns pricks his fingertip with a needle for some reason (I forget the context).  No blood comes out, just a little poof of dust.  He looks at everyone else and says dryly, "Yes, I'm old."  Elthina wouldn't have blood magic.  She'd have dust magic.

[Lewie]

Rifneno wrote...

louise101 wrote...

Last play i just finished act 2. Act 3 starts with the moment where Elthina tells Meredith to go back to the gallows 'like a good girl', she simply bows and walks off. The look between them is dodgy, its so difficult to say who is corrupt i thought even Elthina is using blood magic. The harimanns are not mages yet still tear people down through demons.

Polaris, everyone in kirkwall is susceptible to a demon, accept that fact.

I can't imagine Elthina using blood magic.  It reminds me of that scene in the Simpsons where Mr. Burns pricks his fingertip with a needle for some reason (I forget the context).  No blood comes out, just a little poof of dust.  He looks at everyone else and says dryly, "Yes, I'm old."  Elthina wouldn't have blood magic.  She'd have dust magic.

Im just making the point, magic or no, lyrium or no doesn't matter. This is after all a thread to figure out who the real villian is.

[Melca36]

This also relates to in part as to why Nathaniel was in the Deep Roads.

Remember there was some mysterious allies he was reluctant to talk about.

[Mage One]

I disagree. To the extent that there was any main villain in DA2, I would argue it's the darker side within everyone, the smallest, meanest parts of humanity taking central stage.

[LobselVith8]

Melca36 wrote...

This also relates to in part as to why Nathaniel was in the Deep Roads.

Remember there was some mysterious allies he was reluctant to talk about. 

I believe that's if the Warden spared the Architect. He seems to be referring to the intelligent darkspawn working for the Architect.

[Pandaman102]

The true villain was Varric.

Hawke is just his Kaiser Soze. They cut out the scene where Varric is smirking as he boards a boat while Cassandra realizes how conveniently everything fell onto Hawke's lap in the story.

[Lewie]

Pandaman102 wrote...

The true villain was Varric.

Hawke is just his Kaiser Soze. They cut out the scene where Varric is smirking as he boards a boat while Cassandra realizes how conveniently everything fell onto Hawke's lap in the story.

Well, no, give Varric credit, he didn't make the decisions for hawke. He embelished the story, and saved my bacon on many occasions with a rhyming triplet. I also gave him evade, seriously i had to pause game seeing him backflip was brilliant. 

[Pandaman102]

louise101 wrote...

Pandaman102 wrote...

The true villain was Varric.

Hawke is just his Kaiser Soze. They cut out the scene where Varric is smirking as he boards a boat while Cassandra realizes how conveniently everything fell onto Hawke's lap in the story.

Well, no, give Varric credit, he didn't make the decisions for hawke. He embelished the story, and saved my bacon on many occasions with a rhyming triplet. I also gave him evade, seriously i had to pause game seeing him backflip was brilliant. 

I take it you haven't watched Unusual Suspects? The joke is that Hawke doesn't exist and Varric is playing the sympathetic informant who spins an elaborate tale of a series of grand coincidences that neatly explains how everything was tied to a single person who came out of nowhere and vanished into thin air.

[FiachSidhe]

Power is the true villain of DA2. Power and ideology.

[Ollymandias]

I take it you haven't watched Unusual Suspects?

Is that like The Usual Suspects? Just a little more... unexpected?

[Rifneno]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Melca36 wrote...

This also relates to in part as to why Nathaniel was in the Deep Roads.

Remember there was some mysterious allies he was reluctant to talk about. 

I believe that's if the Warden spared the Architect. He seems to be referring to the intelligent darkspawn working for the Architect.

He says the same if the Architect was killed.  It's possible he's still refering to some sentient darkspawn but I think there's more to it.  He has no problem telling Hawke about the sentient darkspawn or the Architect, why would he bite his lip on the allies if they were what he just mentioned?  I think it's not so much that Nathaniel doesn't want Hawke to know, I think it's that Bioware doesn't want us to know.  Yet.

[Pandaman102]

Rifneno wrote...

He says the same if the Architect was killed.  It's possible he's still refering to some sentient darkspawn but I think there's more to it.  He has no problem telling Hawke about the sentient darkspawn or the Architect, why would he bite his lip on the allies if they were what he just mentioned?  I think it's not so much that Nathaniel doesn't want Hawke to know, I think it's that Bioware doesn't want us to know.  Yet.

Or it could simply be a mistake in importing Awakening plot flags. We have mistakes all over the place, why attribute this to some grander scheme when it could simply be "If Architect spared then mention allies, else don't mention allies" not triggering correctly?

Modifié par Pandaman102, 29 avril 2011 - 05:43 .

[frustratemyself]

The whole game feels kind of like a lead up to a grander scheme, you get all these teasing hints all the way through but no real outcome on a lot of things.
Someone else recently posted that the game felt like one big origin story for them which it does if you look at it as part of a grander scheme. All the characters play their own part for better or worse with Hawke as the central catalyst setting the background story for whatever Cassandra, Leliana & co were hinting at in the end.

Lolz at Pandaman102 re Kaiser Soze.

[SkittlesKat96]

 I wouldn't say she's the villain but she was being apathetic and even though she had noble intention she should have been smarter and intervened, she could have told Meredith she was being too drastic or tried to mediate Orsino's and Meredith's disputes.

[Encaustic]

Anders and Meredith. Two zealots who are the opposite sides of the same coin. Awakening Anders and Justice ceased to exist when they merged. The "Anders" in DA2 is just a perversion of the people/spirits they used to be.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

My first guess would have been that Nathaniel would have been talking about the intelligent darkspawn as his mysterious allies, but he talked about the Architect and about the talking darkspawn earlier in his conversation as if they were still enemies, saying "fortunately their numbers are few".