140 réponses à ce sujet

[ddv.rsa]

@Dean_the_Young: The Asari and Salarians are content to be glorified stooges of the Turians, why not of humanity? After Palaven is sacrificed and Turian military power is broken, humanity can always enforce a treaty limiting the naval power of the other races. If they violate it and start an arms race, simply bomb them back to stone age before they become a real threat.

The Salarians and their bioweapons also aren't as much of a threat as one might think. We are not the Krogan. We'd be able to develop cures and more importantly, bioweapons of our own.

[Clonedzero]

doing multiple "either or" scenarios would feel really "video gamey"

i dont want to recognize a silly video game choice format thinly veiled by "moral choices".

each species should have its own plight and that determines things. best example i can think of is the quarians where you can either convince them to help you fight risking their entire fleet, or have them focus on getting their homeworld back.

each species could have a problem, you can help with that problem and get more help, or you can force them to help at the cost of risking them. or other consequences.

i dont want any cheap "so do you want humans to live or the taurians?" or "asari or salarians?" cus thats cheap and lazy writing.

the only two "either or" examples i can think of is krogans vs. salarians dealing with the genophage, and the geth vs quarians dealing with the homeworld issue. i dont see the taurians and asari suddenly having big issues where i'd have to pick one or the other.

[Dean_the_Young]

ddv.rsa wrote...

@Dean_the_Young: The Asari and Salarians are content to be glorified stooges of the Turians, why not of humanity? After Palaven is sacrificed and Turian military power is broken, humanity can always enforce a treaty limiting the naval power of the other races. If they violate it and start an arms race, simply bomb them back to stone age before they become a real threat.

If that was a plausible or practical strategy, it might be entertained. Human history shows that disarmament treaties aren't, even if (which I strongly disagree the Alliance would be) the enforcing power would want to do so. A treaty with limits too low will never be agreed to: a treaty with limits too high will leave the 'weaker' side able to do disproportionate damage to deter the desire to 'enforce' the treaty in such a way. And any treaty with any limits is only good in so much as its willing to be enforced... which any lasp in motivation is enough to give away, even if the Alliance was filled with people who would genocide other species for simply being a power rival.

Which, like I said, I strongly doubt.

The Turians don't run the Council, and calling the Asari or the Salarian their stooges is a big limited, especially in light of how often it works the other way around.

The Salarians and their bioweapons also aren't as much of a threat as one might think. We are not the Krogan. We'd be able to develop cures and more importantly, bioweapons of our own.

Let's concede that.

So what? By the time you've countered the disease, the effects have already been wrought. It doesn't matter what Humanity does after it loses its grip on power, if the effects of the disorder (a Human-specific plague? A subtle, unnoticable genetic disorder triggering insanity at command? Perhaps indoctrination of Human leadeership.) does it's primary objectives beforehand. Given the 'tense' environment of the galaxy, any slip up may be unrecoverable in terms of what we can't regain after a cure of the catalyst.

[Dean_the_Young]

Clonedzero wrote...

doing multiple "either or" scenarios would feel really "video gamey"

i dont want to recognize a silly video game choice format thinly veiled by "moral choices".

each species should have its own plight and that determines things. best example i can think of is the quarians where you can either convince them to help you fight risking their entire fleet, or have them focus on getting their homeworld back.

each species could have a problem, you can help with that problem and get more help, or you can force them to help at the cost of risking them. or other consequences.

i dont want any cheap "so do you want humans to live or the taurians?" or "asari or salarians?" cus thats cheap and lazy writing.

the only two "either or" examples i can think of is krogans vs. salarians dealing with the genophage, and the geth vs quarians dealing with the homeworld issue. i dont see the taurians and asari suddenly having big issues where i'd have to pick one or the other.

This is Mass Effect: either-or choices are the norm, not the exception, and to wish otherwise is to wish against the established trend of the series.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Palaven, without a second thought. I love the Turians, nothing personal. Strictly business.

Renegade Council or Paragon?

If it's a Renegade Council, I can understand, and wouldn't question at all. It's an obvious choice, though the Salarians might be another: Salarians more likely to sneak in a genophage-equivalent.

Yea, renegade council.

If it's a Paragon Council, on the other hand, it depends on what you'd like Humanity's position to be. Assuming you want Humanity to be something other than a memory and a sideshow.

I mostly agree with what you're saying. Except I am not sure humanity can fill the Salarian role, at least not until after a while. Salarians are all about mastery of information, espionnage and reconaissance, and scientific research. While humanity is a jack of all trades, I think, despite potential, that it would take a while for them to replace the Salarians.

And it would require Humanity to somewhat forfeit its military role in favor of the Turians.

But it's plausible, if a long term perspective is taken.

The Asari are a current military pygmy, little threat at the present. On the other hand, they may be the real sleeping  whale of the galaxy: they're currently in a cultural decline, but should they radicalize, whether in five years or five hundred, the traditional 'Asari are peaceful culturalists' will be long since forgotten by the time an Asari cultural wave recedes again. Even a single Asari generation (say, four hundred years) of Asari revanchism and militarism would be a devastating problem for the galaxy.

I don't think the Asari are naturally inclined to this kind of thinking. And even then, their military mentality is focused more on guerilla type of warfare which is not really suited for aggressive wars.

And if what Harbinger said is true, Humanity has an immense biotic potential, which could rival the Asari, or when combined with other factors, help keep the Asari in check. Not saying they couldn't be a potential problem, but I'd say the chances of that happening and catching Humanty offguard are not that high. Still, something to ponder on.

The Turians are an obvious current military giant, and the ones going toe-to-toe with the Alliance in the arms race. They've always been imperialist, always been expansionist, and they only seem to be getting worse. On the the other hand, the loss of status has seen a key ally, the Volus, increasingly separate from the Turian Hegemony, and their long-term economic prospects don't look favorable. Their might now would not last forever, if their economic fortunes dim their military, but they have power now. Seeing the Turians wiped out leaves Humanity as the truly uncontested military dominator of the Council system... at least until the Salarians launch a surprise bio attack, or the Asari decide to re-arm. Perhaps the Turians are better as the foe we know and loath but respect.

I'd say Humanity allying with the Volus and holding the galactic economy is worth the risk.
But of course, thatt is all assuming that Humanity has to be alone. It could have other allies to coutner balance the Salarians and Asari.

The Salarians are a wild card. What they consider their interests to be is unfathomable: they may well be the pragmatics to work with the Alliance system the most. What we do know, however, is that should they strike, we will likely never know. Whether in concert with another (and the Salarians would truly be the most likely enablers/co-beligerants of a war), or a surprise on their own, we can only know two things: a Salarian attack would be unpredictable, and devastating, by the time we ever realizes we were at war at all. The Salarians as a threat are the threat of the stab in the back, and removing them is removing the wild card to face the known enemies.

I wouldn't exagerrate the threat too much though., They launched a devastating preemptive attack on the Krogans and they rebounced faster than they could say "****, we need another race to ally with".

Yes, Salarians possess devastating first strike capabilities. But in a war of attrition, they'd fair pretty badly. In fact, since their women are rare and in high political positions, killing a large number of them to prove the point would act as a deterrent or as a psychological warfare instrument that would cripple their resolve. At least up to the point where we are not making it look like we are trying to exterminate them.

This is the Renegade context, in which you have three potential rival-foes, and only one can be removed. Whichever it is, however, choose wisely: Humanity's sole destruction might be the one thing that can reconvene the Broken Council, and the Council races are not known for their short memories towards races who have opposed them. A Quarian exile may be but the most generous of terms.

I think removing the Turians, and allying with Quarians, Volus and a kept under control Krogans (who can be manipulated via their hatred of the Salarians. Ideally, with a cure that only makes it so that 50 or so out of 1000 babies live, or a small but crucial number like that), can keep them in line.

Of course, Salarians and Asari could always be a potential threat, especially if they work together. Hence why Humanity needs allies from the "lesser races", which is what's happening according to ME2 (Paragon Shepard with Jilani, and the Turian racist candidate).

But I believe that removing the Turians out of the political picture would provide Humanity with enough immediate and long term opportunity, that it could be used to develop means, mechanisms and alliances to deter or maybe even integrate the Salarians and Asari.

Indeed, Humanity could try to play both Krogans and Salarians. Convincing the Salarians that Humanity is the only thing keeping the Krogans in check, otherwise they'd go crazy and have revenge.
Or we can even use the Geth for the "big bad other". I'd certainly have Humanity play the Geth and Quarians against each other a bit and have it pose as the benevolent mediator.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 28 avril 2011 - 05:34 .

[seirhart]

I would completely destroy earth even though I'm pure paragon; don't care at all on what happens to the rest of humanity after that. After me 3 ending I'd live with liara on the shadow broker ship and I'd go out from time to time to help her with something.

I would most definitaly with out a second thought save the Asari; Salarian and Turian home world.

[ddv.rsa]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Human history shows that disarmament treaties aren't, even if (which I strongly disagree the Alliance would be) the enforcing power would want to do so. A treaty with limits too low will never be agreed to: a treaty with limits too high will leave the 'weaker' side able to do disproportionate damage to deter the desire to 'enforce' the treaty in such a way. And any treaty with any limits is only good in so much as its willing to be enforced... which any lasp in motivation is enough to give away, even if the Alliance was filled with people who would genocide other species for simply being a power rival.

Well, up until the end of ME1 the Council had a treaty limiting dreadnought numbers in the ratio 5:3:1. For every 5 the Turians had the Asari and Salarians could build three 3, other races 1. Had humanity ignored the treaty, do you really think the Turians would have failed to respond militarily? You say such treaties are unfeasible, but they are already in place in the game.

As for the Asari and Salarians being stooges, just look how they legislated a military advantage for the Turians. If they were really on equal terms that would not have happened.

Another advantage humanity might have in the post reaper galaxy is tech from the collector base. Even without a treaty limiting the other races, that alone could provide an enormous military advantage.

[KnightofPhoenix]

ddv.rsa wrote...
As for the Asari and Salarians being stooges, just look how they legislated a military advantage for the Turians. If they were really on equal terms that would not have happened.

Not necessarily. Salarians and Asari are physically and biologically unsuited for warfare or not as suited. I think the logic behind the pact is a division of labor. Turians are the military arm. Salarians are the espionnage and scientific arm. Asari are the cultural and diplomatic arm.

By allowing the Turians to have a military advantage and rely on them to provide military stability and security, they could focus their ressources on what they are good at, or in economic terms, their comparative advantage. Which are as vital as a powefrful military, and complimentary to it. The Turians would not do as well without Salarians and Asari backing them up, and vice versa.

In that sense, the Council Trio is mutually complimentary and equitable.

[ddv.rsa]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Human history shows that disarmament treaties aren't, even if (which I strongly disagree the Alliance would be) the enforcing power would want to do so.

I'll give you that. Right now the Alliance is a relatively paragon-ish and moderate institution. But after an alien attack on Earth itself that kills millions, I think it is entirely possible that public opinion could change. Groups like Terra Firma and Cerberus could be vindicated. Depending on the example set by Shepard and other leaders, public opinion (and thus the political character of the alliance) could become a lot more pro-human. Even jingoistic.

Modifié par ddv.rsa, 28 avril 2011 - 05:53 .

[Dean_the_Young]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I mostly agree with what you're saying. Except I am not sure humanity can fill the Salarian role, at least not until after a while. Salarians are all about mastery of information, espionnage and reconaissance, and scientific research. While humanity is a jack of all trades, I think, despite potential, that it would take a while for them to replace the Salarians.

And it would require Humanity to somewhat forfeit its military role in favor of the Turians.

But it's plausible, if a long term perspective is taken.

The Alliance might not be able to, but I have a feeling 'humanity' would love to. And by Humanity, I mean Cerberus. And by love to, I mean exploit it for all it's worth.

I don't think the Asari are naturally inclined to this kind of thinking. And even then, their military mentality is focused more on guerilla type of warfare which is not really suited for aggressive wars.

And if what Harbinger said is true, Humanity has an immense biotic potential, which could rival the Asari, or when combined with other factors, help keep the Asari in check. Not saying they couldn't be a potential problem, but I'd say the chances of that happening and catching Humanty offguard are not that high. Still, something to ponder on.

Given that all we know about the Asari is pretty much a cultural wave of post-war (Rachni/Krogan) pacifism, I'd dispute that the Asari are any less inclined towards war than the modern European. Which is to say: they have a military history in spades, they have ancient culture of it, and while they're pleasantly pacifist right now, they weren't always so enlightened nor will they always be so peaceful.

Humans may have biotic potential, but even if we concede for the sake of argument that they do, the Asari are still by far the largest population and economy in the galaxy, even in the loss of dominance, and neither of those sizable attributes is going away any time soon short of an exceptional devastation by the Reapers. The Asari don't have to be better than the Alliance. The Asari don't have to be equal to the Alliance, one-on-one. The Asari are simply so big that, if they were in a state of mind to fight, that a victory would almost certainly be phyric.

I'd say Humanity allying with the Volus and holding the galactic economy is worth the risk.
But of course, thatt is all assuming that Humanity has to be alone. It could have other allies to coutner balance the Salarians and Asari.

While this is true, let's not get into the idea that a hole is a hole and that any peg for one hole can be replaced by a peg for another. The Krogan aren't equivalent to the Turians, the Volus aren't equivalent or equal to the Asari, and so on. Any substitutes will be just that: substitutes, and far less capable than the Bit Three.

I wouldn't exagerrate the threat too much though., They launched a devastating preemptive attack on the Krogans and they rebounced faster than they could say "****, we need another race to ally with".

Yes, Salarians possess devastating first strike capabilities. But in a war of attrition, they'd fair pretty badly. In fact, since their women are rare and in high political positions, killing a large number of them to prove the point would act as a deterrent or as a psychological warfare instrument that would cripple their resolve. At least up to the point where we are not making it look like we are trying to exterminate them.

While this is all true, this also depends on the Salarians being rational actors, and maintaining a will for collective punishment no matter the source. The biggest fear I would have is if the Salarians spawn a Salarian Cerberus that's just as unaccountable to the Salarian government as The Illusive Man is to the Alliance. The same reasons the Council wasn't going to curbstomp humanity for the actions of Cerberus work the other way as well. Besides the whole reliance on the Salarians and their proxy being 'rational', we have to balance of the results of if we're seen as stomping unjustly.

But I believe that removing the Turians out of the political picture would provide Humanity with enough immediate and long term opportunity, that it could be used to develop means, mechanisms and alliances to deter or maybe even integrate the Salarians and Asari.

In so much that the Salarians are still a wild card, I agree that the Turians are a short-medium term pancea. On the other hand, the long-term threats can be much worse, if less predictable, while the imperialistic Turians make a useful foil for both sides.

[Commander_Adept]

armass wrote...

Yeah i wonder if they present us with option to save one race and leave the other to die, in pairs. Pairs would be:

Turians/Asari
Salarians/Krogan
Quarians/Geth
Drell, Hanar/Humans

Which one's would you take?

I'm not a fan of Asari. As far as Squadmates go, Liara, Samara and Morinth were all very dull (Morinth was cool when she wasn't being a copy of Samara). Turians are kinda jackasses, but Garrus is my bro and I don't know if I could destroy where he grew up.

As much as I love Mordin, the Salarians annoy me so much. And you don't want to ****** off Krogan... More than they're already pissed off. Plus, that would just be cruel. It would be like torturing an entire species with the genophage, just to kill them off. Plus, Wrex and Grunt ftw

As for the Quarians/Geth conundrum... I feel that the Geth were the ones who were wronged in that situation. Not that I dislike the Quarians- I would be very sad if I had to let Kal'Reegar die. But honestly, they're all kind of violent towards a race that drove them away from their homeworld, at the fault of the Quarians themselves. Plus, Legion > Tali anyday. I'd prefer to solve this peacefully if necessary. Provided with a Virmire situation, I would choose the Geth on my first go through to save.

I added the Drell/Hanar to Humans thing, as well to this because that could be a possibility. I've found that, Shepard, Jack, and Kasumi aside, I tend to really intensely dislike humans in the Mass Effect universe. And of the three Drell we've seen so far, two out of three (Thane and Feron) are awesome, the other is just a whiny **** (Kolyat). Hanar are interesting, and you don't want Blasto coming after you for revenge.

[Dean_the_Young]

ddv.rsa wrote...


Well, up until the end of ME1 the Council had a treaty limiting dreadnought numbers in the ratio 5:3:1. For every 5 the Turians had the Asari and Salarians could build three 3, other races 1. Had humanity ignored the treaty, do you really think the Turians would have failed to respond militarily? You say such treaties are unfeasible, but they are already in place in the game.

Humans already had, in effect, by building carriers. But, more importantly, the Council had a full range of pressures (diplomatically siding with the Batarians, economic sticks) that it could bring to bear at a time in which we needed the Council's aid and support far more than it needed us.

As for the Asari and Salarians being stooges, just look how they legislated a military advantage for the Turians. If they were really on equal terms that would not have happened.

This presumes that numbers are the only measure of dominance. The British historically remained a dominant player in Europe not because they kept the largest standing army, but because they held the purse strings and paid for the armies to fight for them. Britain was rarely the main military effort in any of its wars, limiting itself to peripheral support and financing most of the time.

Another advantage humanity might have in the post reaper galaxy is tech from the collector base. Even without a treaty limiting the other races, that alone could provide an enormous military advantage.

Depending on if you kept it, and how the post-Reaper tech fallout goes about. The Turians grabbed a Thannis from the scrap of Sovereign: there's a lot more of that to go around real soon.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
The Alliance might not be able to, but I have a feeling 'humanity' would love to. And by Humanity, I mean Cerberus. And by love to, I mean exploit it for all it's worth.

If the Collector base is kept intact and proves to be useful, it may even provide immediate results.

Given that all we know about the Asari is pretty much a cultural wave of post-war (Rachni/Krogan) pacifism, I'd dispute that the Asari are any less inclined towards war than the modern European. Which is to say: they have a military history in spades, they have ancient culture of it, and while they're pleasantly pacifist right now, they weren't always so enlightened nor will they always be so peaceful.

Codex: "The asari were the first species to discover the Citadel. When the salarians arrived, it was the asari who proposed the establishment of the Citadel Council to maintain peace throughout the galaxy. Since then, the asari have served as the mediators and centrists of the Council."

This implies it's before the Rachni / Krogan

" For centuries, their homeworld of Thessia was dotted with loose confederacies of great republican cities. The closest Earthly equivalent would be the ancient Mediterranean city-states. Since the asari culture values consensus and accommodation, there was little impetus to form larger principalities. Rather than hoard resources, the asari bartered freely. Rather than attack one another over differing philosophies, they sought to understand one another."

Even before going to space, they were mostly peaceful with each other and no where the same as human history, for good or for ill (in this case, good for us).

"While fluid and mobile, asari can't stand up in a firestorm the way a krogan, turian, or human could. Since their units are small and typically lack heavy armor and support weapons, they are almost incapable of fighting a conventional war, particularly one of a defensive nature."

This miltiary doctrine is based on millenia old traditions. I don't think they would change in a blink of an eye.

Humans may have biotic potential, but even if we concede for the sake of argument that they do, the Asari are still by far the largest population and economy in the galaxy, even in the loss of dominance, and neither of those sizable attributes is going away any time soon short of an exceptional devastation by the Reapers. The Asari don't have to be better than the Alliance. The Asari don't have to be equal to the Alliance, one-on-one. The Asari are simply so big that, if they were in a state of mind to fight, that a victory would almost certainly be phyric.

With allies, Humanity can deter them and with Volus support, could challenge their economy in time.

Asari strength is all in the long run and implicit (which can be challenged). Alone, or even with Salarians, they cannot respond to immediate threats (Rachni and Krogans), should it come to that.

While this is true, let's not get into the idea that a hole is a hole and that any peg for one hole can be replaced by a peg for another. The Krogan aren't equivalent to the Turians, the Volus aren't equivalent or equal to the Asari, and so on. Any substitutes will be just that: substitutes, and far less capable than the Bit Three.

They don't have to be equivalent. In fact, I am betting on them not being equivalent. But they'd add much needed support and help compensate for any weakness Humanity might have. Which are not too crucial seeing how it's a jack of all trades species.

And they'd add diplomatic leverage.

While this is all true, this also depends on the Salarians being rational actors, and maintaining a will for collective punishment no matter the source. The biggest fear I would have is if the Salarians spawn a Salarian Cerberus that's just as unaccountable to the Salarian government as The Illusive Man is to the Alliance. The same reasons the Council wasn't going to curbstomp humanity for the actions of Cerberus work the other way as well. Besides the whole reliance on the Salarians and their proxy being 'rational', we have to balance of the results of if we're seen as stomping unjustly.

I think it's precisely because Salarians view females in a strictly rational way (they do not understand the concept of sexual pleasure and love), that they'd be more inclined to be deterred or crippled if their matriarchs are threatened or killed.

And who knows, we might have a Salarian admiral giving Humanity all the coordinates of this Salarian Cerberus so we can take them out

But yea definitely, Salarians can be a devastating threat, but it's really their first strike capability that is frightening. But in a war of attrition, they'd probably get their asses kicked. And they know it, hence the alliance with Turians.

Also, we have to remember that the Salarians were the ones to develop the genophage. But they were not the ones to unleash it. They might be able to develop devastating weapons and WMDs, but if they lack the means to deliver them, or don't have the means to deliver a vast amount that would cripple Humanity from the first strike, then a war of attrition is virtually inevitable. And that's what they'd want to avoid at all costs I think. 

In so much that the Salarians are still a wild card, I agree that the Turians are a short-medium term pancea. On the other hand, the long-term threats can be much worse, if less predictable, while the imperialistic Turians make a useful foil for both sides.

Or Humanity and the Turians become playthings in a Salarian - Asari game. And I think both would rather have Turians. Because Humanity has shown itself to be too aggressive, unpredictable (to them, maybe has to do with individualsm), and potentially a jack of all trades faction that would compromise their own roles or niche.

Salarians are definitely the wild card. Turians are much more predictable. But, I think they can be deterred, once the short-medium term pancea is removed.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 28 avril 2011 - 06:14 .

[seirhart]

michaelrsa wrote...

Commander_Adept wrote...
Turians are kinda jackasses, but Garrus is my bro and I don't know if I could destroy where he grew up.

Most of them are actually nice to Shepard it's just a few that are jerks. I love them for that. There's never a mean asari, they're always pleasant to Shepard and that annoys me. Turians are great because there are ones that are nice to you and ones that are mean to you. To me, they are the most interesting species.

I agree with this most of the turians are really nice to shepard and humans; but I prefer the salarians and asari. Just because a race has the strongest military doesn't mean the others are'nt number one in the eyes of the other council members. you got the salarians who are primarily special forces like the stg or you got the asari huntresses.

[jamesp81]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

ddv.rsa wrote...

@Dean_the_Young: The Asari and Salarians are content to be glorified stooges of the Turians, why not of humanity? After Palaven is sacrificed and Turian military power is broken, humanity can always enforce a treaty limiting the naval power of the other races. If they violate it and start an arms race, simply bomb them back to stone age before they become a real threat.

If that was a plausible or practical strategy, it might be entertained. Human history shows that disarmament treaties aren't, even if (which I strongly disagree the Alliance would be) the enforcing power would want to do so. A treaty with limits too low will never be agreed to: a treaty with limits too high will leave the 'weaker' side able to do disproportionate damage to deter the desire to 'enforce' the treaty in such a way. And any treaty with any limits is only good in so much as its willing to be enforced... which any lasp in motivation is enough to give away, even if the Alliance was filled with people who would genocide other species for simply being a power rival.

Which, like I said, I strongly doubt.

The Turians don't run the Council, and calling the Asari or the Salarian their stooges is a big limited, especially in light of how often it works the other way around.

The Salarians and their bioweapons also aren't as much of a threat as one might think. We are not the Krogan. We'd be able to develop cures and more importantly, bioweapons of our own.

Let's concede that.

So what? By the time you've countered the disease, the effects have already been wrought. It doesn't matter what Humanity does after it loses its grip on power, if the effects of the disorder (a Human-specific plague? A subtle, unnoticable genetic disorder triggering insanity at command? Perhaps indoctrination of Human leadeership.) does it's primary objectives beforehand. Given the 'tense' environment of the galaxy, any slip up may be unrecoverable in terms of what we can't regain after a cure of the catalyst.

The use of a biological weapon, however, would evoke a rather rude response from the Alliance.  Rude as in nuclear carpet bombing of Salarian worlds, and counter attacks with our biological weapons.  Humanity might not recover from a Salarian bioattack, but the Salarians would for damned sure not survive the retaliation.

[jamesp81]

seirhart wrote...

I would completely destroy earth even though I'm pure paragon; don't care at all on what happens to the rest of humanity after that. After me 3 ending I'd live with liara on the shadow broker ship and I'd go out from time to time to help her with something.

I would most definitaly with out a second thought save the Asari; Salarian and Turian home world.

So, what's the source of this self-loathing?

[ddv.rsa]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Not necessarily. Salarians and Asari are physically and biologically unsuited for warfare or not as suited. I think the logic behind the pact is a division of labor. Turians are the military arm. Salarians are the espionnage and scientific arm. Asari are the cultural and diplomatic arm.

By allowing the Turians to have a military advantage and rely on them to provide military stability and security, they could focus their ressources on what they are good at, or in economic terms, their comparative advantage. Which are as vital as a powefrful military, and complimentary to it. The Turians would not do as well without Salarians and Asari backing them up, and vice versa.

In that sense, the Council Trio is mutually complimentary and equitable.

I'll agree that Salarians are not as suitable as Turians for infantry warfare. But the real measure of military power in the ME universe is starships. Ground warfare is almost irrelevant. As far as space combat goes, any race that has achieved space travel is as suitable as any other.

Technology, training, and numbers are what is important. Ships can be adapted to the biological needs of whatever species is using it.  There is no physical reason that makes the Turians more suitable for space combat than the Volus, Elcor and Hanar. Much less the Asari and Salarians. Turian physical charataristcs don't justify why they should have the most dreadnoughts.

As for the Council Trio being complimentary and equitable, I think of it like a traditional marriage where the husband works and the wife stays at home. He earns money and she looks after the house and kids. Both are very important roles, and in theory there should be equality between them. But in practise his money gives the husband a lot of power, and in the event of a dispute he has a very big advantage. So while the Council Trio may seem equitable and complimentary on paper, at the end of the day the Turians have the power and are very cleary "wearing the pants" in that relationship.

[KnightofPhoenix]

ddv.rsa wrote...
I'll agree that Salarians are not as suitable as Turians for infantry warfare. But the real measure of military power in the ME universe is starships.

I don't think that's entirely accurate. Many claimed (some still do) that airpower in the contemporary world is the real measure of military power, but that's been proven wrong many times, including by a current event.
I doubt it was starships that really defeated the Rachni (it was the brute force of Krogans that did). I doubt the Krogans had a vast or technologically advanced fleet, yet they stil challenged Salarians, Asari and Turians to a standstill before the genophage.

Plus also, it still requires a substantial military to crew those ships. The salarian army had always been small, for I suspect biological / cultural reasons. Same with the Asari. The Turians on the otherhand are a quasi-militaristic society.  So it's easier for them to field larger fleets, as they have the "social" infrastructure for it.

As for the Council Trio being complimentary and equitable, I think of it like a traditional marriage where the husband works and the wife stays at home. He earns money and she looks after the house and kids. Both are very important roles, and in theory there should be equality between them. But in practise his money gives the husband a lot of power, and in the event of a dispute he has a very big advantage. So while the Council Trio may seem equitable and complimentary on paper, at the end of the day the Turians have the power and are very cleary "wearing the pants" in that relationship.

But Asari culture and diplomacy, and Salarian espionnage and tech is not equivalent to being a stay-at-home mom. If anything, the Salarians and Asari might be more active in galactic politics on a day to day basis, with the Turians stepping in when there is a need for muscle flexing. Plus, it's a trio, not a duo.

I'd agree, that if we look at it as bilateral agreements, between Turians and Asari, and Turians and Salarians, the Turians would probably hold the advantage. But it's a trilateral alliance. Single-handedly, I do not think the Turians hold the advantage over both of their allies simultaneously. 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 28 avril 2011 - 08:15 .

[Jzadek72]

Earth probably. My Shepard doesn't exactly have fond memories of the place.

[TheOtherTheoG]

Thessia. There are still 6 billion or so Asari on Illium, so it's not too big a deal.

[seirhart]

I've been looking thru the g1 article and I just skimmed it; I don't read everthing it takes to long. It seems to me that we will have to go to each homeworld of each major faction and if we want there assistance we will need to help them. If its true that we will have to go to each factions homeworld I will go in this order to get help - Thessia, Salarian homeworld, Turians also if I can I'll mozey on over to the hidden planet/planets that the queen and the rachni are hiding at and then to the krogan homeworld and finally to the geth