140 réponses à ce sujet

[KnightofPhoenix]

Saphra Deden wrote...
We need to launch a culture war against the asari as much as we do a conventional one.

I wouldn't phrase it as a war, but more as a competition. But yes I agree, I think Humanity can and should protect and spread its culture. And it kind of already is. Elcor Hamlet is an example.

[jamesp81]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

ddv.rsa wrote...
I'll agree that Salarians are not as suitable as Turians for infantry warfare. But the real measure of military power in the ME universe is starships.

I don't think that's entirely accurate. Many claimed (some still do) that airpower in the contemporary world is the real measure of military power, but that's been proven wrong many times, including by a current event.
I doubt it was starships that really defeated the Rachni (it was the brute force of Krogans that did). I doubt the Krogans had a vast or technologically advanced fleet, yet they stil challenged Salarians, Asari and Turians to a standstill before the genophage.

Plus also, it still requires a substantial military to crew those ships. The salarian army had always been small, for I suspect biological / cultural reasons. Same with the Asari. The Turians on the otherhand are a quasi-militaristic society.  So it's easier for them to field larger fleets, as they have the "social" infrastructure for it.

As for the Council Trio being complimentary and equitable, I think of it like a traditional marriage where the husband works and the wife stays at home. He earns money and she looks after the house and kids. Both are very important roles, and in theory there should be equality between them. But in practise his money gives the husband a lot of power, and in the event of a dispute he has a very big advantage. So while the Council Trio may seem equitable and complimentary on paper, at the end of the day the Turians have the power and are very cleary "wearing the pants" in that relationship.

But Asari culture and diplomacy, and Salarian espionnage and tech is not equivalent to being a stay-at-home mom. If anything, the Salarians and Asari might be more active in galactic politics on a day to day basis, with the Turians stepping in when there is a need for muscle flexing. Plus, it's a trio, not a duo.

I'd agree, that if we look at it as bilateral agreements, between Turians and Asari, and Turians and Salarians, the Turians would probably hold the advantage. But it's a trilateral alliance. Single-handedly, I do not think the Turians hold the advantage over both of their allies simultaneously. 

I'm going to have disagree with you there.  Once you control space, you've won.  It's over but for the kicking and the screaming at that point.  The Krogan problem was unique.  When the Salarians uplifted them, significant Krogan populations ended up on most major worlds.  Genophage was required, because they were already everywhere, and small Krogan populations explode into huge ones in short order.

Krogan troops were probably needed against Rachni because the Council races were likely unwilling to use wholesale nuclear orbital bombardments on their own planets to re-take them from the Rachni.

In interstellar warfare, the only time ground forces matter is 1) when defending a colony from small scale pirate attacks, 2) in a situation where two sides are fighting for control of a garden world and neither side is willing to nuke it or 3) you wish to retrieve something from a planet or station by force (this could be an artifact, some kind of tech, data, etc).  Outside these scenarios, ground forces are mostly irrelevant in interstellar warfare.

I wouldn't even bother stationing ground troops on hostile environment colonies or orbital habitats.  Those aren't garden worlds and are pretty much guaranteed to catch a nuke pretty quickly.

Modifié par jamesp81, 28 avril 2011 - 09:09 .

[jamesp81]

TheOtherTheoG wrote...

Thessia. There are still 6 billion or so Asari on Illium, so it's not too big a deal.

Actually, there are 85 million.

Ilium has been settled for 570 years at the time of ME2, and it's population is still only 85 million.  This should give us an idea of how very slowly Asari populations grow.

[KnightofPhoenix]

jamesp81 wrote...
I'm going to have disagree with you there.  Once you control space, you've won.  It's over but for the kicking and the screaming at that point.  The Krogan problem was unique.  When the Salarians uplifted them, significant Krogan populations ended up on most major worlds.  Genophage was required, because they were already everywhere, and small Krogan populations explode into huge ones in short order.

But if they don't have advanced fleets which are supposedely the key to victory, how could they fight the Turians, Salarians and Asari to a standstill? The Genophage was not the coup de grace, the Krogans simply did not relent until its usage.

Not dismissing the power and importance of spaceships. But I do not think they are everything. As in they alone are not enough to win major wars and / or certain kinds of war.

Krogan troops were probably needed against Rachni because the Council races were likely unwilling to use wholesale nuclear orbital bombardments on their own planets to re-take them from the Rachni.

That's not a problem for the Rachni homeworlds, and the Krogans were the ones to clear them out.

 2) in a situation where two sides are fighting for control of a garden world and neither side is willing to nuke it

And that's very important. For both short and long term.

Other scenarios include clearing up fortified bunkers in strategically located planets (a la Torfan). Wanting to avoid bad press and not use WMDs. Peacekeepers....etc.

Again, not dismissing the importance and power of fleets. They are just not everything, neither militarily or politically.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 28 avril 2011 - 09:35 .

[ddv.rsa]

I've always wondered how the Krogan ever became a threat. However many of them there were, the Council races should have been able to blast their troop transports into space dust. Their endless hordes of infantry should never have reached the battlefield. A high population doesn't give you an edge in space combat or even naval production. Do the Krogan even have any heavy industry?

[jamesp81]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...
I'm going to have disagree with you there.  Once you control space, you've won.  It's over but for the kicking and the screaming at that point.  The Krogan problem was unique.  When the Salarians uplifted them, significant Krogan populations ended up on most major worlds.  Genophage was required, because they were already everywhere, and small Krogan populations explode into huge ones in short order.

But if they don't have advanced fleets which are supposedely the key to victory, how could they fight the Turians, Salarians and Asari to a standstill? The Genophage was not the coup de grace, the Krogans simply did not relent until its usage.

Not dismissing the power and importance of spaceships. But I do not think they are everything. As in they alone are enough to win wars.

Krogan troops were probably needed against Rachni because the Council races were likely unwilling to use wholesale nuclear orbital bombardments on their own planets to re-take them from the Rachni.

That's not a problem for the Rachni homeworlds, and the Krogans were the ones to clear them out.

 2) in a situation where two sides are fighting for control of a garden world and neither side is willing to nuke it

And that's very important. For both short and long term.

Other scenarios include clearing up fortified bunkers in strategic located planets (a la Torfan). Wanting to avoid bad press and not use WMDs. Peacekeepers....etc.

Again, not dismissing the importance and poer of fleets. They are just not everything, neither militarily or politically.

I don't think it's safe to say the Krogan didn't have fleets of warships.  For example, in ME2, there's a system next to Tuchanka where it mentions there were once massive fueling platforms for Krogan fleets.  These platforms were destroyed by STG and Spectre operatives during the Krogan Rebellions.

Even if the Krogan had relied on the Salarians for starships, it's obvious that Krogan populations were planted on major worlds all over the galaxy.  Once that happened, the need to use the genophage was inevitable, warships or not.  That situation is fairly unique, however.  In most conventional wars, warships are going to be much more important.

You only need ground troops to clear fortified bunkers if they're located on worlds you're not willing to use orbital bombardment on.  If a bunker was found on a planet with no life and a toxic atmosphere, it'd make no sense to sacrifice ground troops to clear it.  Nuke that **** from orbit and call it day.

A war, in fact, very well can be won with warships only, if the guy with the warships is willing to bomb garden worlds from orbit.  If he's willing to do that, then ground troops would have no value to either side.  Short of that, even if he wasn't willing to nuke garden worlds, small detachments of frigates in orbit around an enemy's garden worlds could easily contain any attempt to rebuilding destroyed industry or shipyards.  They could also easily enforce a total blockade, preventing any resources from getting out and aiding the war effort.  This could be accomplished with nothing more than a small frigate squadron.

Edit:

The Krogan apparently did have warships and heavy industry

Modifié par jamesp81, 28 avril 2011 - 09:44 .

[jamesp81]

ddv.rsa wrote...

I've always wondered how the Krogan ever became a threat. However many of them there were, the Council races should have been able to blast their troop transports into space dust. Their endless hordes of infantry should never have reached the battlefield. A high population doesn't give you an edge in space combat or even naval production. Do the Krogan even have any heavy industry?

The Codex suggests that they did:

"With help from salarian uplift teams, the krogan constructed a chain of solar power collector stations in orbit around Nith. These vast arrays beamed power to particle accelerators on the surface of Mantun, which manufactured antiproton fuel for warship thrusters."

Mantun, first planet in the Nith system, Krogan DMZ

As for numbers, I think the females would give birth to some obscene number of children per clutch (I'm thinking it's something like 1000 per clutch).

Modifié par jamesp81, 28 avril 2011 - 09:47 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

jamesp81 wrote...
I don't think it's safe to say the Krogan didn't have fleets of warships.  For example, in ME2, there's a system next to Tuchanka where it mentions there were once massive fueling platforms for Krogan fleets.  These platforms were destroyed by STG and Spectre operatives during the Krogan Rebellions.

I am not saying they didn't have fleets. What I am saying is that I do not think it's likely that they had advanced warships that rival that of Salarians, Asari and Turians. I do not think they were rivalling them at space. But that their numerous numbers and unconventional tactics (asteroids crashed on planets) was making it one hell of a fight.

EDIT: and the link you provided shows that the Krogan fleet was knocked out before the war even began. And yet they still fought citadel races to a standstill.

A war, in fact, very well can be won with warships only, if the guy with the warships is willing to bomb garden worlds from orbit.

Except that would be a reckless and wasteful thing to do, unless one is really desperate.

Short of that, even if he wasn't willing to nuke garden worlds, small detachments of frigates in orbit around an enemy's garden worlds could easily contain any attempt to rebuilding destroyed industry or shipyards.  They could also easily enforce a total blockade, preventing any resources from getting out and aiding the war effort.  This could be accomplished with nothing more than a small frigate squadron.

But when your objective is to capture that garden world, or a resource rich world, a blockade won't do that for you. ground forces will.

If ground forces are not necessary or that important, then I don't see why they still ivnest in them.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 28 avril 2011 - 09:54 .

[Dean_the_Young]

jamesp81 wrote...

The use of a biological weapon, however, would evoke a rather rude response from the Alliance.  Rude as in nuclear carpet bombing of Salarian worlds, and counter attacks with our biological weapons.  Humanity might not recover from a Salarian bioattack, but the Salarians would for damned sure not survive the retaliation.

And how do you know it was the Salarians who attacked? Do you know? Do you even care?

If, say, the Batarians unleash a bio-weapon, will we still carpet bomb and massacre billions who were uninformed, unaware, and uninvolved? If the Batarians plus one Salarian who has no shown relation to the Salarian government?

How will you handle false-flag operations? What about false-reports? What if there's an offer for a cure from the Salarians?


Why one earth would the Alliance public support open threat of genocide against a species who's involvement is only suspected?

[ddv.rsa]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

A war, in fact, very well can be won with warships only, if the guy with the warships is willing to bomb garden worlds from orbit.

Except that would be a reckless and wasteful thing to do, unless one is really desperate.

Bombing a garden world (populated by another species) could actually be quite a good move. If you're fighting the Council why abide by their rules? Whether or not you do, they will. Use their morals and rules against them.

Back to my original point, destroying a garden world would thoroughly terrorize a soft race (Asari, Volus, Elcor). Such a ruthless display would make their leaders think twice about continuing the war and demoralize their public. And if your race doesn't want the world, what do you really lose?

On the other hand some races would become even more resolute in their opposition (Turians). Neutral races could also start becoming hostile. You'd need to rely on them fearing you enough not to intervene. And if you weren't fighting the Council yet,  you would be once you nuked a garden world.

Anyway, if you can rule out Council intervention, or if you are fighting the Council, nuking a garden world could send a powerful message.

[ddv.rsa]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

The use of a biological weapon, however, would evoke a rather rude response from the Alliance.  Rude as in nuclear carpet bombing of Salarian worlds, and counter attacks with our biological weapons.  Humanity might not recover from a Salarian bioattack, but the Salarians would for damned sure not survive the retaliation.

And how do you know it was the Salarians who attacked? Do you know? Do you even care?

If, say, the Batarians unleash a bio-weapon, will we still carpet bomb and massacre billions who were uninformed, unaware, and uninvolved? If the Batarians plus one Salarian who has no shown relation to the Salarian government?

How will you handle false-flag operations? What about false-reports? What if there's an offer for a cure from the Salarians?


Why one earth would the Alliance public support open threat of genocide against a species who's involvement is only suspected?

A bioweapon has hit Earth and infected billions. You don't think the public would demand blood, some kind of military response? You think people would be calm and rational? You think the man in the street would say "come on, let's give the aliens the benefit of the doubt".

[KnightofPhoenix]

ddv.rsa wrote...
Back to my original point, destroying a garden world would thoroughly terrorize a soft race (Asari, Volus, Elcor). Such a ruthless display would make their leaders think twice about continuing the war and demoralize their public. And if your race doesn't want the world, what do you really lose?

Losing your own public support, antagonizing alies, lose international prestige, destroy or weaken a potential or existing market, damage useful  infrastructure like ressource extraction....etc. 
Garden worlds are a rarity as it is. Humans can always colonize them, especially if they are strategically located or rich. If need be, deport some of the original settlers out, as nicely as possible.

I wouldn't approve of such methods unless they become really necessary or warranted. Like if the Salarians decide to preempt and use biological weapons on us, then nuking a garden world or two might do the trick. If it achieves clear military goals and not for revenge's sake.  

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 28 avril 2011 - 10:12 .

[Dean_the_Young]

ddv.rsa wrote...

A bioweapon has hit Earth and infected billions. You don't think the public would demand blood, some kind of military response? You think people would be calm and rational? You think the man in the street would say "come on, let's give the aliens the benefit of the doubt".

...right, so you've openly supported blind genocide as a response regardless of any actual, you know, guilt.

That's, ahem, real logical. Definetly how sane and stable states are maintained.




Gee, wasn't there a mission in Mass Effect in which some group was falsely accused of using biological warfare, and how the response was all according to a third party's plan?

[ddv.rsa]

Forget logic. Tell me how you think the public would react: a bioweapon has hit Earth and the Salarians are suspected.

Edit: And I haven't supported anything. Read my post again. I asked how do you suppose the public would react.

Modifié par ddv.rsa, 28 avril 2011 - 10:25 .

[Dean_the_Young]

ddv.rsa wrote...

Forget logic. Tell me how you think the public would react: a bioweapon has hit Earth and the Salarians are suspected.

Why are the Salarians suspected?

Edit: And I haven't supported anything. Read my post again. I asked how do you suppose the public would react.

No, you've been pretty steady in advocating 'bombing to the stone age' policy in this thread.

[Captain_Obvious]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

When push comes to shove, I think I'm with Cheez on this one. The asari can reproduce with every other species, anyway.

And they were the first to discover the citadel; stands to reason they have spread the most past their home world.  Yup, Thessia. 

Although, the Salarians do kinda deserve to know how the Krogan felt with the Genophage, yes?  Tough call.

[ddv.rsa]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Why are the Salarians suspected?

Why are the Salarians suspected? I'm working within the context of your given scenario (in which they are, apparently):

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Why one earth would the Alliance public support open threat of genocide against a species who's involvement is only suspected?

No, you've been pretty steady in advocating 'bombing to the stone age' policy in this thread.

But we're not discussing this thread, which has covered many scenarios. We're discussing your scenario specifically, in which a bioweapon has been unleashed on Earth and the Salarians are suspected. I haven't advocated anything yet.

Modifié par ddv.rsa, 28 avril 2011 - 10:44 .

[jamesp81]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

The use of a biological weapon, however, would evoke a rather rude response from the Alliance.  Rude as in nuclear carpet bombing of Salarian worlds, and counter attacks with our biological weapons.  Humanity might not recover from a Salarian bioattack, but the Salarians would for damned sure not survive the retaliation.

And how do you know it was the Salarians who attacked? Do you know? Do you even care?

If, say, the Batarians unleash a bio-weapon, will we still carpet bomb and massacre billions who were uninformed, unaware, and uninvolved? If the Batarians plus one Salarian who has no shown relation to the Salarian government?

How will you handle false-flag operations? What about false-reports? What if there's an offer for a cure from the Salarians?


Why one earth would the Alliance public support open threat of genocide against a species who's involvement is only suspected?

You underestimate our capacity for demanding blood.  If a WMD like a genophage-type bioweapon was used, and we think we know who it was, the public will be calling for retaliation in kind.  Since it's likely the Alliance wouldn't have sophisticated bioweapons on hand, they'd likely go the much less sophisticated, but just as effective, route of using nuclear / antimatter saturation bombing of Salarian worlds.

Remember, we're talking about humanity here.  The race that started WW 1 over one aristocrat getting himself shot in Serbia.

[jamesp81]

ddv.rsa wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

The use of a biological weapon, however, would evoke a rather rude response from the Alliance.  Rude as in nuclear carpet bombing of Salarian worlds, and counter attacks with our biological weapons.  Humanity might not recover from a Salarian bioattack, but the Salarians would for damned sure not survive the retaliation.

And how do you know it was the Salarians who attacked? Do you know? Do you even care?

If, say, the Batarians unleash a bio-weapon, will we still carpet bomb and massacre billions who were uninformed, unaware, and uninvolved? If the Batarians plus one Salarian who has no shown relation to the Salarian government?

How will you handle false-flag operations? What about false-reports? What if there's an offer for a cure from the Salarians?


Why one earth would the Alliance public support open threat of genocide against a species who's involvement is only suspected?

A bioweapon has hit Earth and infected billions. You don't think the public would demand blood, some kind of military response? You think people would be calm and rational? You think the man in the street would say "come on, let's give the aliens the benefit of the doubt".

Hell no.  The man in the street would demand blood for blood.

[jamesp81]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

ddv.rsa wrote...

A bioweapon has hit Earth and infected billions. You don't think the public would demand blood, some kind of military response? You think people would be calm and rational? You think the man in the street would say "come on, let's give the aliens the benefit of the doubt".

...right, so you've openly supported blind genocide as a response regardless of any actual, you know, guilt.

That's, ahem, real logical. Definetly how sane and stable states are maintained.




Gee, wasn't there a mission in Mass Effect in which some group was falsely accused of using biological warfare, and how the response was all according to a third party's plan?

I seriously doubt the Salarians would be able to hide the fact they did it.  People are too familiar with their work, and their capabilities.  Frankly, it'd be difficult to believe anyone other than them would do it.  The Asari and the Turians probably don't have the expertise for it anyway.

In any case, biological weapons can be studied, genetic markers catalogued, and the source can usually be identified.  I doubt the real perpetrator would remain hidden for long.  And when they were found, the public would enthusiastically support the use of WMDs against civilian targets since the same was JUST done to them.

[jamesp81]

Captain_Obvious wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

When push comes to shove, I think I'm with Cheez on this one. The asari can reproduce with every other species, anyway.

And they were the first to discover the citadel; stands to reason they have spread the most past their home world.  Yup, Thessia. 

Although, the Salarians do kinda deserve to know how the Krogan felt with the Genophage, yes?  Tough call.

When I formulated my decision in the OP, I didn't go based on who deserved it or not.  It was all about who could recover from it best.  But it is very interesting to see how people are reasoning this out.

[jamesp81]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

ddv.rsa wrote...

Forget logic. Tell me how you think the public would react: a bioweapon has hit Earth and the Salarians are suspected.

Why are the Salarians suspected?

Edit: And I haven't supported anything. Read my post again. I asked how do you suppose the public would react.

No, you've been pretty steady in advocating 'bombing to the stone age' policy in this thread.

I've always enjoyed reading your posts, but you're being more than a little obtuse here.

[jamesp81]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...
I don't think it's safe to say the Krogan didn't have fleets of warships.  For example, in ME2, there's a system next to Tuchanka where it mentions there were once massive fueling platforms for Krogan fleets.  These platforms were destroyed by STG and Spectre operatives during the Krogan Rebellions.

I am not saying they didn't have fleets. What I am saying is that I do not think it's likely that they had advanced warships that rival that of Salarians, Asari and Turians. I do not think they were rivalling them at space. But that their numerous numbers and unconventional tactics (asteroids crashed on planets) was making it one hell of a fight.

EDIT: and the link you provided shows that the Krogan fleet was knocked out before the war even began. And yet they still fought citadel races to a standstill.

Again, by the time the rebellions started, there were Krogan populations on many worlds throughout the galaxy.  The Krogan didn't need to ships to get there.  They were already there.

[HighMoon]

I wonder which of the homeworlds has the highest population? Earth? Palaven? Thessia? Sur'Kesh? Earth has a whopping 11 billion. (Tuchanka has somewhere around 2 billion, I think?) I think Pal, Thes and Sur would all be on a similar level to Earth, if not higher.

Modifié par Golden-Rose, 29 avril 2011 - 05:40 .

[JeffZero]

Seeya later, Thessiagator.