Okay, I think this is a great place to discuss the big explosion at the end. Literally. Anders blew up the chantry and the mages and templars go to war. That war spreads all across Thedas. Hawke is quite likely the one person who can help put the world back together. The Chantry lost a great deal of power because of this.
So now I present this thread. Whose to blame for the war? Anders? Orsino and the blood mages? Meredith? The idol? or even the Grand Cleric's neutrality. I want to hear people's thoughts.
Whose to Blame?
Débuté par
dragonflight288
, avril 28 2011 02:14
Retour en haut
#2
Posté 28 avril 2011 - 02:22
primero holodon
-
- Members
- 353 messages
I'm gonna have to say this was all Anders fault, not only did he kill the one person who was keeping the mages and templars at bay, but he did it in a way that would make the worlds greatest supervillain bow in awe.
#3
Posté 28 avril 2011 - 02:29
dragonflight288
-
- Members
- 8 852 messages
Hmm. My own personal opinion is that it's a combination of everyone's fault. The idol tore away at Meredith's sanity. But before that she already hated mages and persecuted them. She made things very uncomfortable for everyone. She didn't even investigate Harrowed mages becoming tranquil! That's illegal in the chantry.
Orsino (not proven until the end) was hiding blood mages and was working (not clear how closely) with Quentin in the school of Necromancy. He was also not very effective at his duties as First Enchanter. I say that because, while he believed and fought for mages and their freedoms constantly, he wasn't very wise going about it (shouting from the streets about how horrible Meredith is while she is the acting Viscount. Not smart.) Anders/Justice had lost all patience in doing things somewhat peacefully and destroyed the symbol of the thing that oppresses mages.
I may need to expand into everyone a bit later, but let's get this thread off the ground.
Orsino (not proven until the end) was hiding blood mages and was working (not clear how closely) with Quentin in the school of Necromancy. He was also not very effective at his duties as First Enchanter. I say that because, while he believed and fought for mages and their freedoms constantly, he wasn't very wise going about it (shouting from the streets about how horrible Meredith is while she is the acting Viscount. Not smart.) Anders/Justice had lost all patience in doing things somewhat peacefully and destroyed the symbol of the thing that oppresses mages.
I may need to expand into everyone a bit later, but let's get this thread off the ground.
#5
Posté 28 avril 2011 - 02:51
Maria Caliban
-
- Members
- 26 094 messages
It's Flemeth's fault.
She said, "When you get the chance: jump!" What she should have said is, "You're about to be railroaded into a massive conflict and all you'll be able to do is react to other people's insanity. Get your money and then move back home."
There's nothing to suggest that Hawke is vastly more qualified to put things back together than any other generic_BioWare_PC.
She said, "When you get the chance: jump!" What she should have said is, "You're about to be railroaded into a massive conflict and all you'll be able to do is react to other people's insanity. Get your money and then move back home."
Despite this being the premise for the interrogation, and thus the story, I've never felt this is true. Hawke wasn't a mastermind who grabbed power in Kirkwall, only to set the Templars against the mages, and use her idol to drive Meredith insane. Cassandra just believed she was.dragonflight288 wrote...
Hawke is quite likely the one person who can help put the world back together.
There's nothing to suggest that Hawke is vastly more qualified to put things back together than any other generic_BioWare_PC.
Modifié par Maria Caliban, 28 avril 2011 - 02:56 .
#6
Posté 28 avril 2011 - 02:53
Kisari
-
- Members
- 452 messages
I don't think it's possible to say it was all Anders fault. Honestly, if he hadn't done anything, things would have just slowly kept getting worse. At that point Meredith was looking for ANY reason to send for the Right of Annulment. Heck, as Orsino said, it wasn't even the Circle that did it. Yet because of the action of one person, that's enough to Annul an entire tower of mages. Really I think Kirkwall was just doomed, whether Anders did anything or not. Leliana even says that they were going to march against Kirkwall, didn't she? That was before the exploding fiasco.
It was pretty obvious that Elthina was NEVER going to take sides and since everyone kept looking to her, instead of calming down and... not being crazy... nothing was going to get fixed. I don't think what Anders did was okay, but after thinking, I can't be mad at him for it.
Even Cullen, who said that mages can't be treated like people, was starting to question the Templars and how the Circle worked. I think that says a lot about Meredith's crazy. At least Orsino kept his crazy hidden.
It was pretty obvious that Elthina was NEVER going to take sides and since everyone kept looking to her, instead of calming down and... not being crazy... nothing was going to get fixed. I don't think what Anders did was okay, but after thinking, I can't be mad at him for it.
Even Cullen, who said that mages can't be treated like people, was starting to question the Templars and how the Circle worked. I think that says a lot about Meredith's crazy. At least Orsino kept his crazy hidden.
#7
Posté 28 avril 2011 - 03:34
Masako52
-
- Members
- 320 messages
I think it's awesome that Anders blew up the chantry!! Was long overdue in my opinion. 
Really, I think the biggest problem with DA2 - and I say this as someone who enjoys it and has come to appreciate it more than she did initially - is that there's a disconnect with the climactic action. Meredith should have seen more like a titan than she was, and Orsino should have been less pathetic. They should have been more present and ominous throughout the game. You know, we should have been able to go to a Circle Tower in Kirkwall and see just how horrible this oppression was. I played as a mage in Origins, and I quite liked the Tower. I get that they took mages away and made them stay there, I saw that oppression, but the Circle was cool and it seemed like, I don't know, going to Hogwarts. Freaking sweet!
But to the question - naturally it feels easier or at least more "moral" to support the mages and say Meredith and the templars instigated this mess by oppressing the mages. So I tend to go with that answer - Meredith seems more foaming-at-the-mouth whack than Orsino does. But the problem with the mages is that they are all actually turning to blood magic. As a flippin' rule, blood magic, and are terrorizing people. I guess we're not supposed to say whose fault it is - it's like, which came first, the chicken or the egg. Are the templars oppressing mages and causing them to turn to blood magic, or are the mages turning to blood magic and need to be guarded by the templars?
I blame the Chantry, though. Just for being obnoxious. And yeah, the Chantry's position in Kirkwall was "herp derp let's be friends" when confronted, but turn the other cheek when crap is actually going down. Despite my adoration for Anders' little act of creative expression, the Chantry really should have had the responsibility to mitigate and find compromise, or at least confront the issue diplomatically. Point is, they could have done something, they did not.
Really, I think the biggest problem with DA2 - and I say this as someone who enjoys it and has come to appreciate it more than she did initially - is that there's a disconnect with the climactic action. Meredith should have seen more like a titan than she was, and Orsino should have been less pathetic. They should have been more present and ominous throughout the game. You know, we should have been able to go to a Circle Tower in Kirkwall and see just how horrible this oppression was. I played as a mage in Origins, and I quite liked the Tower. I get that they took mages away and made them stay there, I saw that oppression, but the Circle was cool and it seemed like, I don't know, going to Hogwarts. Freaking sweet!
But to the question - naturally it feels easier or at least more "moral" to support the mages and say Meredith and the templars instigated this mess by oppressing the mages. So I tend to go with that answer - Meredith seems more foaming-at-the-mouth whack than Orsino does. But the problem with the mages is that they are all actually turning to blood magic. As a flippin' rule, blood magic, and are terrorizing people. I guess we're not supposed to say whose fault it is - it's like, which came first, the chicken or the egg. Are the templars oppressing mages and causing them to turn to blood magic, or are the mages turning to blood magic and need to be guarded by the templars?
I blame the Chantry, though. Just for being obnoxious. And yeah, the Chantry's position in Kirkwall was "herp derp let's be friends" when confronted, but turn the other cheek when crap is actually going down. Despite my adoration for Anders' little act of creative expression, the Chantry really should have had the responsibility to mitigate and find compromise, or at least confront the issue diplomatically. Point is, they could have done something, they did not.
#8
Posté 28 avril 2011 - 03:42
ChickenDownUnder
-
- Members
- 1 028 messages
Anders and Grand Cleric.
Anders for thinking that an act of terrorism would actually fix matters. Elthina for confusing neutrality with blindness.
Anders for thinking that an act of terrorism would actually fix matters. Elthina for confusing neutrality with blindness.
#9
Posté 28 avril 2011 - 03:48
Devildealer
-
- Members
- 58 messages
Who's to blame for the war? Going to have to go back in time to source of the problem, the being that started all of this. The maker. Things don't go according to plan and he runs away instead of trying to fix the problem. By his logic his creations will fix the problem but instead over the next several ages, things just get worse. Justice/Anders would have never had a reason to blow up the chantry, Meredith would have never went mad with mage-hunting, and all those before her, etc. He has the power now to do something and he just watches what happens for entertainment.
#10
Posté 28 avril 2011 - 03:59
Loain
-
- Members
- 186 messages
I blame Alistair. If he hadn't been such a lovable whiny prat my Warden would’ve stayed in Lothering helping refugees while Alistair the senior Gray Warden gathered an army. The Hawke family would've been saved, or at the very least accidentally shattered by my Warden's spells.
My Warden also wouldn't have let Justice play puppet master with Kristoff's body. Thus Anders never would have befriended him but my Warden needed the extra help. Why? Because Alistair was to busy to help out a friend.
When in doubt blame Alistair.
My Warden also wouldn't have let Justice play puppet master with Kristoff's body. Thus Anders never would have befriended him but my Warden needed the extra help. Why? Because Alistair was to busy to help out a friend.
When in doubt blame Alistair.
Modifié par Loain, 28 avril 2011 - 04:01 .
#11
Posté 28 avril 2011 - 04:17
Gunso91
-
- Members
- 64 messages
I personally found it awesome he blew up the chantry.. my jaw hit the freakin floor the first time I saw it. Who's to blame for the war? Hm, they all added to the tension of the struggle but Anders made a deliberate act to force the war so I suppose a lot of the blame can be put at his feet although he most likely just jumpstarted the inevitable
#12
Posté 28 avril 2011 - 11:05
dragonflight288
-
- Members
- 8 852 messages
Hmm. I like all these ideas. I take issue with one of them however.
That's acting under the belief that the maker exists. Bioware was genius in the way they present enough evidence to doubt the Chantries preaching or the Chant of Light, but don't have enough evidence to disprove it either. Alistair consistently throughout Origins reminds us that the Chantry isn't full of pure good people who are models of society. They teach that the Templars exist to defend, but in reality they're an army.
Meredith was just waiting for an excuse to annul the Circle. Her hatred and paranoia was making her see blood mages everywhere.
Orsino: When will you no longer see danger!?!
Meredith: When it's no longer there!
If you look hard enough for danger, you'll find it regardless if it's fact or fiction. She wanted to see dangers everywhere because she feared mages, and that fear made her think that the most innocent of reasons were excuses, and her paranoia soon called every mage a blood mage....and my argument somehow changed topics on me while I was typing without me realizing it.
Anyway, the Chantry isn't the gentle mother that Elthina claims it to be, and it doesn't exist to defend people against mages or mages against people. That's what the templars and the chantry are supposed to do, but they have a great deal of power, especially having exclusive trading rights with the dwarves for lyrium. The Templars need to rely on the chantry so they'll follow the chantries orders to the letter. The mages need lyrium to cast some of their most powerful spells. If the Chantry feels those rituals (the Harrowing) can be too dangerous, the mages will no longer have lyrium to work with. All that's left then, is blood magic.
Who's to blame for the war? Going to have to go back in time to source of the problem, the being that started all of this. The maker. Things don't go according to plan and he runs away instead of trying to fix the problem. By his logic his creations will fix the problem but instead over the next several ages, things just get worse. Justice/Anders would have never had a reason to blow up the chantry, Meredith would have never went mad with mage-hunting, and all those before her, etc. He has the power now to do something and he just watches what happens for entertainment.
That's acting under the belief that the maker exists. Bioware was genius in the way they present enough evidence to doubt the Chantries preaching or the Chant of Light, but don't have enough evidence to disprove it either. Alistair consistently throughout Origins reminds us that the Chantry isn't full of pure good people who are models of society. They teach that the Templars exist to defend, but in reality they're an army.
Meredith was just waiting for an excuse to annul the Circle. Her hatred and paranoia was making her see blood mages everywhere.
Orsino: When will you no longer see danger!?!
Meredith: When it's no longer there!
If you look hard enough for danger, you'll find it regardless if it's fact or fiction. She wanted to see dangers everywhere because she feared mages, and that fear made her think that the most innocent of reasons were excuses, and her paranoia soon called every mage a blood mage....and my argument somehow changed topics on me while I was typing without me realizing it.
Anyway, the Chantry isn't the gentle mother that Elthina claims it to be, and it doesn't exist to defend people against mages or mages against people. That's what the templars and the chantry are supposed to do, but they have a great deal of power, especially having exclusive trading rights with the dwarves for lyrium. The Templars need to rely on the chantry so they'll follow the chantries orders to the letter. The mages need lyrium to cast some of their most powerful spells. If the Chantry feels those rituals (the Harrowing) can be too dangerous, the mages will no longer have lyrium to work with. All that's left then, is blood magic.
#13
Posté 28 avril 2011 - 11:47
Knight of Dane
-
- Members
- 7 451 messages
I blame Ser Pounce Alot, if he hadn't left Anders for Schmooples he wouldn't have gone emo and Leliana would still be with my warden.
#15
Posté 29 avril 2011 - 12:39
Wye
-
- Members
- 170 messages
I blame the Maker. If he were that caring, he'd intervene.
#16
Posté 29 avril 2011 - 12:16
Critical Miss
-
- Members
- 245 messages
I blame the Chantry. They set up a system that subjugates mages and when there's rebellion, the Chantry does nothing to alleviate it. I'm beginning to think the Chantry profits from mage/Templar conflicts.
#17
Posté 29 avril 2011 - 12:22
Louis deGuerre
-
- Members
- 640 messages
I blame the Templars for being so ineffectual they could not capture/kill the Anders abomination who everyone apparently knew about living in the same place for 7 years.
Anders, being possessed and all, at least has an excuse.
Meredith, also cursed or something, as well.
Orsino is just totally ineffectual but does not really effect anything.
Anders, being possessed and all, at least has an excuse.
Meredith, also cursed or something, as well.
Orsino is just totally ineffectual but does not really effect anything.
#18
Posté 29 avril 2011 - 12:25
bti79
-
- Members
- 164 messages
The chantry and the grand cleric failed. The grand cleric spoke of balance, but did nothing to restore it. KC Meredith was a useful idiot - she kept the mages under fire, so noone would challenge the chantry. Only the lyrium idol drove her mad, so it got out of hand - and the grand cleric didn't see it before it was too late.
Anders/Justics actions were the inevitable outcome of an steadily increasing unjustified pressure on mages.
"Change is coming to the world. Some fear change and will fight it with every fibre of their being. But sometimes, change is what they need most. Sometimes, change is what sets them free." - Morrigan
Even if these words were said about much bigger events to come, I still think they apply perfectly to the Kirkwall situation.
Anders/Justics actions were the inevitable outcome of an steadily increasing unjustified pressure on mages.
"Change is coming to the world. Some fear change and will fight it with every fibre of their being. But sometimes, change is what they need most. Sometimes, change is what sets them free." - Morrigan
Even if these words were said about much bigger events to come, I still think they apply perfectly to the Kirkwall situation.
#19
Posté 29 avril 2011 - 12:39
berelinde
-
- Members
- 8 282 messages
Flemeth: "Is it fate or chance? I can never decide."
Anders may have precipitated the situation, but if it wasn't him, it would have been someone else. Meredith had already requested the Rite of Annulment from Val Royeaux at the beginning of Act 3, before Anders even started sniffing around for dung. Would the Divine have rejected the request? No idea, but that would not have stopped Meredith. Not at that point. Had Anders not caused the death of 7 innocents (the most that were *ever* in the Chantry at any one time), hundreds of mages would have been slaughtered. It would have caused chaos even greater than what happened.
Imagine a chemical reaction bubbling away inside a sealed flask. If the flask has a crack in it, the pressure building up inside the flask will cause it to burst. If the flask has no cracks or defects in it, the pressure will still build up. The flask will still burst, but when it does, the highly pressurized and possibly superheated contents will spray over a much wider area, causing much greater devastation. The conflict between the Chantry and the mages was the chemical reaction, Kirkwall was the flask, and Anders was the flaw. (Go ahead, laugh. It is funny.) Also, what do you blame for the explosion? The flask, the defect, or the chemical reaction?
Anders may have precipitated the situation, but if it wasn't him, it would have been someone else. Meredith had already requested the Rite of Annulment from Val Royeaux at the beginning of Act 3, before Anders even started sniffing around for dung. Would the Divine have rejected the request? No idea, but that would not have stopped Meredith. Not at that point. Had Anders not caused the death of 7 innocents (the most that were *ever* in the Chantry at any one time), hundreds of mages would have been slaughtered. It would have caused chaos even greater than what happened.
Imagine a chemical reaction bubbling away inside a sealed flask. If the flask has a crack in it, the pressure building up inside the flask will cause it to burst. If the flask has no cracks or defects in it, the pressure will still build up. The flask will still burst, but when it does, the highly pressurized and possibly superheated contents will spray over a much wider area, causing much greater devastation. The conflict between the Chantry and the mages was the chemical reaction, Kirkwall was the flask, and Anders was the flaw. (Go ahead, laugh. It is funny.) Also, what do you blame for the explosion? The flask, the defect, or the chemical reaction?
#20
Posté 29 avril 2011 - 01:29
dragonflight288
-
- Members
- 8 852 messages
Anders may have precipitated the situation, but if it wasn't him, it would have been someone else. Meredith had already requested the Rite of Annulment from Val Royeaux at the beginning of Act 3, before Anders even started sniffing around for dung. Would the Divine have rejected the request? No idea, but that would not have stopped Meredith. Not at that point. Had Anders not caused the death of 7 innocents (the most that were *ever* in the Chantry at any one time), hundreds of mages would have been slaughtered. It would have caused chaos even greater than what happened.
Imagine a chemical reaction bubbling away inside a sealed flask. If the flask has a crack in it, the pressure building up inside the flask will cause it to burst. If the flask has no cracks or defects in it, the pressure will still build up. The flask will still burst, but when it does, the highly pressurized and possibly superheated contents will spray over a much wider area, causing much greater devastation. The conflict between the Chantry and the mages was the chemical reaction, Kirkwall was the flask, and Anders was the flaw. (Go ahead, laugh. It is funny.) Also, what do you blame for the explosion? The flask, the defect, or the chemical reaction?
That...is a very good analogy.
And if (I have to play through Act 3 again to see this) Merdith had already called for the Right of Annulment at the beginning of the act, then the situation was already beyond saving. But I have to play Act 3 again to see that. Where did that conclusion come from? Honestly curious.
As for the Grand Cleric not seeing her ineffectiveness until it's too late. Nope. I just don't think she ever saw it.
#21
Posté 29 avril 2011 - 02:17
Knight of Dane
-
- Members
- 7 451 messages
Sod it i hate when people make sense with great analogies.
Thanks for messing up my pants berlinde..
Thanks for messing up my pants berlinde..
#22
Guest_PurebredCorn_*
Posté 29 avril 2011 - 02:29
Guest_PurebredCorn_*
Guest_PurebredCorn_*
-
- Guests
Who is to blame? Kirkwall.
It's a cursed ******-hole filled with (mostly) crappy people... including at least one of my Hawke characters.
It's a cursed ******-hole filled with (mostly) crappy people... including at least one of my Hawke characters.
#23
Posté 29 avril 2011 - 02:59
LadyVaJedi
-
- Members
- 475 messages
I think it was the situation of everything. I blame the leaders of the chantry and the circle. That none of them didn't work together. It is mainly thought the Grand Cleric. She should have put her foot down.
#24
Posté 29 avril 2011 - 08:14
nicethugbert
-
- Members
- 5 209 messages
I blame the Lyrium Idol + the rivers of blood the Tevinter Magisters spilled there in ages past + the architect who laid the city out as a bunch of magical glyphs + whatever reason brought the tevinter magisters there to begin with + all those demons hiding in the bowls and secret nooks/crannies of kirkwall..
#25
Posté 29 avril 2011 - 08:41
Sylvanpyxie
-
- Members
- 1 036 messages
I would personally blame Hawke. Hawke got the Dwarves into the Deep Roads, found the Idol. The Idol ended up in Meredith's hands.
As the Idol produced crazy, Meredith got stricter with her Templars and the Circle Mages, being fueled by the pure crazy paranoia that the idol was pumping into her.. She would've snapped and slaughtered all the mages eventually which would've ended in exactly the same way...
Mages vs Templars.
In my opinion.
As the Idol produced crazy, Meredith got stricter with her Templars and the Circle Mages, being fueled by the pure crazy paranoia that the idol was pumping into her.. She would've snapped and slaughtered all the mages eventually which would've ended in exactly the same way...
Mages vs Templars.
In my opinion.
