39 réponses à ce sujet

[Oloria]

For triggering the train of events that lead to the explosion, I think you could probably blame Hawke and the idol. I got the impression that the idol ending up in Meredith's hands was what ultimately tipped the delicate balance in Kirkwall, setting off the downwards spiral towards complete crazy.

However, you could also wonder why the mage-templar balance was so much more precarious in Kirkwall to begin with. The codex entries regarding the thin veil shed a little light on this I think, so maybe you could fault whomever had the wonderfully bright idea of using the gallows as a Circle tower.

Ultimately though, I think the blame lies with the Circle and its complete segregation approach to training mages. I'm not sure I've ever entirely understood why the towers need to be so isolated. Particularly where young child mages are concerned, why can't the towers allow relatives to at least visit outside of training hours? If they were a little more like boarding schools, and less like quarantine zones (it's not as if magical ability is infectious), maybe mages wouldn't get so desperate for freedom in the first place. Even prisons allow visitors!

[Get Magna Carter]

in no particular order
1) Anders & Justice - Anders' hate and Justice's drive to change combined to create a monster doing what neither would choose to do seperatelly
2) Meredith & the idol - Meredith was aggressive and excessive in her efforts and took the idol to give herself more power for use against the mages blinding herself to the hypocrisy of this and opening herself to it's corrupting influence.
3) Orsino and the mages - Orsino seems to be aware of the blood magic and other dangerous practices (including a certain serial killer) but does not seem to do anything to rein in such practices

[dragonflight288]

Sylvanpyxie

I would personally blame Hawke. Hawke got the Dwarves into the Deep Roads, found the Idol. The Idol ended up in Meredith's hands.

As the Idol produced crazy, Meredith got stricter with her Templars and the Circle Mages, being fueled by the pure crazy paranoia that the idol was pumping into her.. She would've snapped and slaughtered all the mages eventually which would've ended in exactly the same way...

Mages vs Templars.

In my opinion.

Hawke didn't take the dwarves down there. Bartrand and Varic were already organizing that expedition. Hawke tried to get in as an enforcer to get out of the city for a few weeks and make a profit. Varic approached him to be a potential partner. Wasn't Hawke's idea in the least. He was seeking an opportunity that was already there.

Oloria

Ultimately though, I think the blame lies with the Circle and its complete segregation approach to training mages. I'm not sure I've ever entirely understood why the towers need to be so isolated. Particularly where young child mages are concerned, why can't the towers allow relatives to at least visit outside of training hours? If they were a little more like boarding schools, and less like quarantine zones (it's not as if magical ability is infectious), maybe mages wouldn't get so desperate for freedom in the first place. Even prisons allow visitors!

That's actually the templars and the chantry. They refuse mages the rights to see their families or even to have children of their own. Mages aren't allowed to get married and any children born in the Circle are taken away by the chantry as 'property'. Templars don't allow mages to have families. See Ser Alrik's quest where that one girl wanted to see her parents because they weren't informed about where she was going.

[Sabariel]

I'm to blame! It's all my fault!!

[Captmorgan72]

The Kirkwall tragedy can all be laid at the feet of Grand Cleric Elthina. She represents the Chantry in Kirkwall. The Chantry has authority over the templars and mages. It was her responsibility to mediate conflicts between the circle and templars and instead of doing her duty, she decided to be neutral, failing the Chantry along with Kirkwall. That's why Anders is my personal hero for killing her.

[Heidenreich]

dragonflight288 wrote...

*quotechain snip*

That's actually the templars and the chantry. They refuse mages the rights to see their families or even to have children of their own. Mages aren't allowed to get married and any children born in the Circle are taken away by the chantry as 'property'. Templars don't allow mages to have families. See Ser Alrik's quest where that one girl wanted to see her parents because they weren't informed about where she was going.

Actually this is false. Mages ARE allowed to marry and have families. The catch 22 in that, is that both the Knight-Commander of <city/country> Circle, the First Enchanter of said circle, and the Grand Cleric of said city/country all need to agree.

No mages from Kirkwall were going to be allowed to marry. Ferelden mages were, on occasion, permitted to do so (Teagan tells you as much if you're a female mage warden. He flirts with you and is all "Well, mages are allowed to marry."). In fact the one mage that worked with King Marric to retake Ferelden from Orlais was granted a pardon to get married. Aka, Shale's 'master'.


Wynne had her child taken away, but she never did say it happened in Ferelden. In fact, she could have been at any other circle (such as in the free marches), or being that she's much older, closer to 60, that the policy changed.. or they did it simply because she was an unwed mage and unable to care for the child.


and that's my bit of lorenerd for today. Its to damn early and I need coffee ;p

[dragonflight288]

Okay. You got me. I was wrong.

But for the most part mages aren't allowed to have families and I don't see Meredith allowing it to happen.

[dragonflight288]

Okay, you got me. I was wrong.

But my point is somewhat valid by the fact that Mages in general aren't allowed to have families, and I don't see Meredith allowing it to happen.

EDIT: crap. Double post.

Modifié par dragonflight288, 30 avril 2011 - 12:32 .

[AstraDrakkar]

I blame BioWare ........ for writing it that way........

[dragonflight288]

lol.

[tddobbs]

Ultimately, the Chantry is responsible for the whole mess. The Circles exist because of the Chantry. The Templars exist to enforce the Chantry design. And then the Templars are just cut loose in the Circle without someone from the Chantry there to hold their leash. You don't just cut loose a military order with no real guidance, their only solution to all problems will be military(crush all resistance). If power is unsafe in the hands of mages, it is also demonstrably unsafe in the hands of drug addicted fanatics. Even with out the idol, Meredith would have eventually gone down this path - because to be a Templar IS to be a lyrium addict. The Chantry should have at least had a "Mother Superior" inside the Circle with direct responsibility over both the mages and the Templars. Meredith might have ignored such a person...or Meredith might have been removed before the situation became so bad.

I loved the explosion. I knew as soon as that quest popped up that something was gonna blow up and I love that it was the Chantry. In the conversation you have with Elthina after the Leliana quest, the cleric states that she is willing to die for her faith; I assume the other Sisters/Mothers, whatever, feel the same. I don't feel sorry for them.

[mesmerizedish]

Marethari.




What was the question?

[LobselVith8]

Heidenreich wrote...

Actually this is false. Mages ARE allowed to marry and have families. The catch 22 in that, is that both the Knight-Commander of <city/country> Circle, the First Enchanter of said circle, and the Grand Cleric of said city/country all need to agree.

David Gaider addressed that some Circles of Magi permit mages to get married (if they obtain permission), but others frown on relationships and don't permit it.

Heidenreich wrote...

No mages from Kirkwall were going to be allowed to marry. Ferelden mages were, on occasion, permitted to do so (Teagan tells you as much if you're a female mage warden. He flirts with you and is all "Well, mages are allowed to marry."). In fact the one mage that worked with King Marric to retake Ferelden from Orlais was granted a pardon to get married. Aka, Shale's 'master'.

Ferelden has been acknowledged by the devs to have the most liberal of the fourteen Circles of Magi in Thedas, and Wilheim was permitted to be free from the Circle of Ferelden because he was a war hero who helped the Rebel Queen Moira and her son Prince Maric the Savior free the nation from the Orlesian occupation (with Shale, no less).

Heidenreich wrote...

Wynne had her child taken away, but she never did say it happened in Ferelden. In fact, she could have been at any other circle (such as in the free marches), or being that she's much older, closer to 60, that the policy changed.. or they did it simply because she was an unwed mage and unable to care for the child.

No mage from the Circle of Magi is permitted to keep their child, married or not. The only mages permitted to raise their children are Grey Wardens.

David Gaider wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Yes, married or not the child of a mage is taken away by the Chantry.

Would the same happen if the mage was also a Grey Warden, such as the Warden-Commander of DA:O and Awakenings?

A mage who is not part of the Circle is not subject to the will of the Chantry. So, no.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 30 avril 2011 - 10:09 .

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

I don't fully agree that the idol made Meredith crazy. She was already this way and had it out for the mages in the beginning of Act I. We really don't know her backstory. All we really know about her is that she is the Knight Commander of Kirkwall but we don't know how she came to be in this position. Even Cullen is more level headed even after everthing he went through in the Ferelden Circle. He came through his ordeal with a level head. By the end of Act III and before the Last Straw, the idol finally pushes her over the edge. She was going to become ruler of Kirkwall or die trying. She resented the fact that the Champion saved the city from the Qunari. The champion was a threat to her power. Cullen is even aware that they planned on arresting the champion for protecting apostates (Bethany, Anders, and Merrill).

The whole reason that Anders comes to the Free Marches is because of what Karl was telling him was going on - mages being made tranquil against Chantry law which I believe was Meredith's doing and the other templar got the full blame for it. Anders was trying to rescue his friend from being made tranquil - unfortunately he had to take a side trip and become a Grey Warden first. Anders realizes that Karl is in severe danger. When doing the tranquility quest Justice/Anders flips his lid and Justice bids his time.

The Divine is already aware that Kirkwall is in serious trouble because of the resolutionist. Which I suspect being influenced by Trevinter's Chantry (The Black Chantry).

For who to blame, I'd have to go with the Grand Cleric and her lack of a backbone. She is the person with authority and she had the ability to stop the feud between the Templars and Mages in Kirkwall. She choose to do nothing. Anders gives her chance after chance to make a decision and other players in the game (Hawke and Sebastian as an example). She had the opportunity to send Meredith into retirement instead she tells her to go back to her office and be a good little girl. I'd say the Templars and Mages brought all of their own problems on themselves. The Divine should have already sent the seekers in to investigate the Templars in Kirkwall. The chantry could have also been more humane and allowed mages the right to have family visitation under Templar guard. At least it would be a start to treat mages like human beings. I also feel there is a need for Templars and they have to be there to guard against Blood mages especially. Alistair proves in the first game that Templars don't need to be lyrium addicts to fight mages.

In Anders' quest I wondered if he knew what was going on in Kirkwall when he was a Grey Warden in Amaranthine with the Warden Commander. Also, in WH, the mages in Ferelden knew something was going on in Kirkwall with other mages. So the mages and templars in other countries knew that Kirkwall was a time bomb waiting to happen. I don't see how finding Hawke for Casssandra makes a difference.

I also believe that Anders always habored hatred for the Chantry for being taken away from his mother. It seemed that his mother was sorry to see him go but his father was not sorry to see him go to the circle.

[dragonflight288]

In Awakening

Anders, using a fire spell to destroy a genlock. The warden comes in, and sees him standing over a pile of dead darkspawn and templars.

Anders: I didn't do it.

After seeing the blowup at the end of DA2, I somehow don't believe him.